Care of Magical Shippers Podcast Episode 15 - Bel-ooh-la-la-mione! (Bellatrix Lestrange/Hermione Granger)

3:47AM Nov 8, 2021

Speakers:

Megs

Music

Nathan

Keywords:

hermione

bellatrix

bella

laughs

fic

mmhmm

people

death eaters

character

talking

prompts

situation

feel

episode

azkaban

bit

week

ship

podcast

listeners

Hello there listener — yes, you specifically — you should know that sometimes, due to the things we discuss on the pod, it might contain potentially triggering content. But the good news is you can always review the episode descriptions for a full list of the warnings applicable to this episode. Oh, and just so you know, this podcast is rated R for really filthy. It includes adult themes and explicit content. So if you're an adult, buckle up, gird your loins and prepare to flood the basement because we are going down with these ships.

[You're on the canon ground, I'm up in crack ship space. Let's start a shipping war, don't care if I get hate. Don't like my pairings, well, then you can hit the bricks. This is my OTP, I'll go down with this ship. I don't care, I ship it! I don't care. I ship it. I ship it.]

Welcome back again to Care of Magical Shippers. It's a Harry Potter ship culture podcast.

Yes it is!

Welcome back to this pod. I'm Megs.

[Laughs] I'm Nathan!

And this week, we're gonna be talking about a fan favorite. We're going to be doing Bellamione.

[Singing] Yes we are!

Oh, yeah. [Whispering] It's time for some femslash.

Oh, gosh, it is. It is time. So obviously, we just have to come right out of the gates saying that we're gonna definitely be talking about —

Mmhmm.

— we're definitely be talking about some, some dark themes, just because we know, I mean, you know Bellatrix and her character in the stories, and then there's Hermione and a lot of Bellamione comes around. Obviously people being like, okay, Helena Bonham-Carter is hot as hell. And then there's like Hermione the strong witch and then the evil strong witch and enemies-to-lovers. So then there's obviously a lot of intense stuff behind it, especially if you're going canon version, or, you know, AU sort of things. But yes, so definitely 100% go to the description and look at those content warnings, because I can tell you already that it's — Yeah, I mean, I know I have stuff that I'm going to talk about, so I just wanted to warn you.

This is going to be... this is going to be un poco picante episode. This is our spiciest episode yet. And we will not be pulling any punches. So if that does not sound like your cup of tea, and you're like, you know, I'm just here for the fluff. Maybe skip this one and come back next week? Because we're not —

Oh my gosh. [Squeals] Next week, okay, we won't — we won't spoil it. But we're really excited about next time, too. It's yeah, so good.

Yeah. But the bottom line is, especially given our, like, feedback survey, we want to make sure that we're giving you a nice, wide variety of different kinds of ships and styles and, and ideas. So this is why we're going ham today with the kink and the BDSM. Because we, yeah.

And some, uh, probably some [singing] non con!

Well, yeah, that as well...

And Megs, you can't see this, or maybe you can see actually if you're a patron. If you're if you're a patron you're seeing the glee on Megs' face right now at the prospect of talking about non con. Megs is just like, "Yes, give me it right now!"

[Laughs] Oh, god, yes. Okay. Anyway, yes, yes, that's true. That's fair. That's — [Laughs]

I just want — I just want to give the listeners that aren't seeing a picture an adequate description of what is going on with your beautiful face right now. Because

Why, thank you!

Because it is filled with glee at the prospect of talking about some really sketchy stuff today. Yeah, and yeah, I'm excited because last week, we did some... we did some stuff and this week we really get to dive into the deep end and just just have a play about in some darker areas.

Yeah, just because I mean, like you said, it's funny. It took us a while to actually like — I think until like Pansy/Ron to really kind of embrace talking like kinky stuff. You know what I mean? They're like, like, oh, yeah, we have our funny intro like, yeah, this is a rated, you know, R pod or whatever. And you're just like, yeah, we're making like fluffy prompts and we're just talking about how much we love these characters and how cute they are together. Which is amazing, obviously. But then we're like, gosh darn it, Nathan, what the hell?

I know!

We're not talking about any sex like...

Exactly! Like, where is it? Where is it? We promised the listeners some nice, smutty times. And then we're all like, but I think because I, because we are both so new to the pod.

Yeah.

And we were still dealing with, like, new-to-the-pod nerves...

Yeah.

And we were still finding our feet. But now, do you know what? We're comfortable enough. We are... we are fully intent on embracing that side of ourselves in the pod as we do in real life.

I think probably the biggest thing as far as growth for us was the fact that we read "Heal Me" together. So if anyone has not listened to the episode that will not be released. It is on our AO3. It's called "Heal Me." It was written by me for Draco Tops Harry. It was far too graphic for us to release for the podcast. But it was — it was recorded. It was done. It was a lot of fun. It was super embarrassing. So highly recommend. We definitely have a great time. What was it? Someone commented that they couldn't believe a fic that took them 30 minutes to read was a two hour podfic?

Yeah.

[Laughs]

Yeah, I mean, it was a — it was a real journey. I mean, if we weren't friends before, we left that recording being like bosom buddies, because it... it required — I was gonna say it required a depth and sensitivity and then maybe those really aren't the right... that really isn't the sort of the right language to be using — Anyway, go back and listen to that. fic if you're okay with us traumatizing you.

Mmhmm, it's a lot of fun. Like, I can laugh about it now. It's been a couple weeks, so...

It will require a strong constitution. And maybe, just while we're reading the smuttier bits, make sure that you're not in the middle of a sip of your drink, because it will go up your nose.

That is true. That is true. I literally spat all over myself. I was taking a drink and it just — oh my goodness. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was the thing.

Yeah. So, so just look after yourself. But also, maybe listen to it in a dark room away from other people. And you know, if you if you need to shower afterwards, no one will judge you. No, but we make content for all sorts of audiences here. And yeah, this is one of the reasons we're now as close friends as we are. Because once you've — once you've done something like that together, you can't go back. There's no... there's no undoing that.

Right. So, on a side note, I just realized based on when this episode's gonna be released, this is our episode just before Halloween, I think, on October 25th? So I think it getting a little like seedy and creepy and stuff is probably pretty fun and appropriate if you think about it.

Yeah.

Yeah. But however, also — tidbit — so Puffcast actually asked us on to be on their Halloween episode. And we happened to write a crack fic together and we are going to read it on their podcast. Of course there's no smut. It's a family friendly pod. Very difficult for us to keep things reined in, as far as writing fic goes.

Yeah. Mmhmm.

It's gonna be so much fun. And yeah, I just — I just remembered that, so yeah, I'm not sure when it released or whether it has already or will closer to Halloween. Go check it out for sure!

We love the people over at Puffcast and we are just so excited to be a part of their extended family now as well. It was super fun, it was super fun to be involved with them and I just, yeah, they're just so wholesome and lovely. They're the best. I love them. Can we, can we, can we be involved with more often, can we?

Probably yes. Julianna's like a superfan. She's probably at home right now... Hi, Julianna. We love you.

Yes we do, yes we do.

Mel too. But Mel's not listening to this. What are we talking about? Mel is not listening to this.

We've we've already given the like super creepy warning of like, don't listen if you don't want to be traumatized. At that point, Mel switched off. Mel was like "K, thanks, bye"!

[Laughs] See you in two weeks! Oh, man. Anyway, anyway, so what were we about to — Bellamione, right?

Yeah, we're, yeah, we're here to talk about Bellamione this week. Yeah, it's — it's our Halloween Week. We're gonna get creepy. Enjoy! Yeah. So let's delve right into the good stuff. Here's why you're here. Here's why you've stuck with us. Congratulations on being our seediest listeners. We love you. There is... there is a place for everyone here and we see you and we love you. And let's delve right in.

All twenty-seven of you.

You know what? You're who we make it for.

That's true. That's true. I'll take two, even if two of you are like, "Oh, hell yeah!" Like we're good. Like, yeah, it's fine.

Okay, so what is it about the ship to you that you keep coming back for?

So when I, whenever we obviously start off with these ships, the crazier they get, or the more distance the characters get, it doesn't always have anything in canon to like be a foundation of it. This one has it to an extent, but obviously, for a very specific type of fic. Like some people will... If you like dark fic or extremely as you know, like more getting into the dub con/non con thing, obviously, people like the whole, Hermione gets tortured by Bellatrix, and then she becomes a prisoner and a sex slave. And all that stuff, that type of thing, so there's canon Bellamione.

There is, yeah, it's very specific, very hyper specific, very attuned to a certain kind of readership and listening ear, if you're listening to it in podfic form, but... but there are people that in this world that know what they want. And those are the best sorts of people because they can filter for specific tags and produce this. And if, you know, and if it's not there, people like this will go out and write that for other people to enjoy!

Mmhmm.

And this is part of the reason why the dynamism of the fanfic community really appeals to me. It's why Arthur/Lucius was so good. And with this one, with Bellamione, I can absolutely see it. Not in canon, necessarily.

Yeah. Right.

But we've already established, in the portrayal of Bellatrix as the sort of leather queen that she —

Dominatrix.

Yeah, exactly, exactly! — That... there is not very much that's left implicit about that side of her mania. She, you know... several barriers in her mental sort of faculties are already broken or have been warped by Azkaban. And we're led — we're led to believe that this madness carries over then into other things. And that must be fun to write for people. Because when you can put yourself in the position of someone who is unhinged, who... who is a little bit deranged, then you can really push the envelope as far as interaction with other characters. So as far as, then if we bring Hermione into it, throughout the book, she is characterized as their sort of lawful good character, who is always the intelligent one, always the, you know, just the goody-two-shoes kind of...

Yeah, by the book. Exactly.

Literally!

Literally by the book. Yes.

So having those two archetypes wrestling against each other, literally, can be fun.

Mmhmm, mmhmm. Yeah, it's very interesting, enemies to lovers especially, because you think about all the other, you know, like common ones that we think about like, okay, Draco and Harry like, okay, through school, they're obviously at odds so it's like, oh, all it has to do is just fall over into love or even with Tomarry or things like that. But with this it's like people definitely go into it from what I've seen via like people's, like, perspectives and comments on why they read it or why they write it, is they're interested in Bellatrix as a character and they want to write around her. And then of course, like bringing Hermione in, they're both two, you know, potentially, you could, you know, say really talented, like, witches, because even like before, like she's one of the top people you know, that Voldemort relies on regardless of her sanity. Like even before everything happened. So to even be like within that, she obviously has a skill set that he, you know, is drawn to. So you have like two strong women. Then, of course, them coming together can either (A) make them stronger or (B) have a lot of conflict involved. Because you think, two big personalities wanting to, like, make all the decisions and then things just, like, fall apart. But... I do like the fic, like when we're getting into like, okay, pretty much everything else is AU. Like it's it's literally making the world around these characters and how they can be together. That's a little bit more, like, there's a lot of really romantic you know, falling in love like fic out there for Bellamione.

So I mean, obviously they're still like, Bella has her personality. And then Hermione gets all blushy and you know, things like that, because it's just like that intensity. But when Hermione ends up, like, going back in time, for whatever reason, be it like her fix-it thing like, versus like Harry going back to, like, make things better. And meeting Bellatrix before she, like, has her, like, mind crack.

Yeah, yeah.

And even just like becomes either, like, friends with her, or even like friends with some of the other Black sisters, and getting to know someone differently. And seeing them in a different light. I just — I see those parallels, especially with the time travel to like, Harry/Tom. Like, you're like, that's a terrible person who has tortured and killed so many people like, why on earth would we want to, like, ship them with anyone, especially that we, you know, we love and we want, you know, what's best for? But apparently we're like, oh, yeah, you know, why not? Hermione and Bellatrix?

Yeah, well, oh, yeah, there's a... there's a certain amount of wish fulfillment that goes on with this ship. Definitely. Because canon Bellatrix is a, you know, Mudblood-hating, you know, like blood purist who is, so hell-bent on pushing a certain kind of agenda, and is, you know, after her own power, and definitely, you know, putting her own selfish self interests first. Now, that's not that's not to say that that's entirely incompatible with a a sexual Hermione frisson. But if that is happening, it's not sustainable, right? It's a sort of a lightning in a bottle scenario, it's a flash in a pan, it's not sustainable. So for it to be any way wholesome or fluffy, you have to go AU because... or you have to go back in time. Because you have to be presented with, like you say, the character either before or after the shit goes down.

Yeah.

So that you can have different parameters to work with. But I think I like the scenarios where it isn't just, it isn't only wish fulfillment. It's also the AU where Bellatrix never goes insane. And she is... she sort of goes down a serious like path of self discovery, because she has different friends or a different group to find her way in the world. And Hermione is then able to grow into the more playful, more impulsive, more fun side of her personality. Because, you know, she's been this bookish person for you know, for as long as we've known her. It's nice to let her run loose a little bit as well. And watch how that — that interacts with with Bellatrix

Yeah, cuz even with Bella, like when I read like, say, like, Marauders-ish era, like, fic. I mean, usually Snape-centered. Hello, it's me.

Of course.

But when Bella's a character in those fics, like she's already a little, like, unhinged, like it kind of plays into the like, "all Slytherins are evil" sort of thing. Like, oh, we know Bella adult as super crazy. Obviously, she's this crazy teenager who like, you know, is flipping around her, her dagger that she freakin kills Dobby with like, it's her trinket, her treasure, which I'm like, okay... But like, it's, it's it's interesting to think — because you think of Slytherin traits and how it's like, you're ambition — ambitious and driven, and also interested in learning and becoming stronger and better. Like I could see her as a Hermione-like character in her time at school, you know, like actually really invested in like obviously bettering herself and reading everything and getting involved in everything and I could see how her mind could have been manipulated to be like, okay, you've either like learned all the things or I have more to teach you and her kind of latching on to that when like, you know, Tom or Voldemort gets involved. But I feel like her story in school is less like okay, she's just like this really like crazy girl just like bitch, out to get everybody or to manipulate people. Or it's just like, everyone's already bad. Like in some of those like, they're just like, everyone's just already bad. Like as —

Yeah, they've already found their evil footing.

Exactly. And it's like, okay, they're still teenagers. Like yeah, Draco was a dick through school and it's like, you know. It's just like, okay, he's being a bully versus being like, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm involved with someone who kills Muggles and all this stuff. Like, granted, he was like, sucked in at 16 but it was kind of against his will versus like all of these Slytherins back then are just like rallying around this. And it's just like — it's just — I don't know, it's really interesting. Not that it's out of, you know, realm of like possible because obviously they've all grown up in this Pureblood mentality. And probably their parents are all gung ho behind, you know all of this, but a lot of it is, you know, it would I don't know, it's kind of around... No, no, that's later.

Where I'm fascinated with Bella's sort of school journey and the differences potentially between, you know, Hermione's route through school and hers is that Hermione wants to learn because she's naturally curious. And I feel like Bellatrix would want to learn because she doesn't want to feel vulnerable. She doesn't want to feel isolated. And so she learns and gathers power to kind of bolster and fortify her own position. And obviously, she's successful because she becomes this incredibly powerful witch, but I feel like she's essentially pressured into this corner quite early, because that Slytherin common room when she's at school must be relatively high octane, with... with other people showing Death Eater sentiments and aspirations. So there has to be a really hyper-competitive atmosphere. So, whereas if you compare that with Hermione's journey, she's really out for herself, and for her own pursuit of knowledge, but it's not really at the expense of anyone else. But I can see Bella developing these ideas early on of "it's okay to, to self advance, and to become very individualistic, and, you know, power driven." And I think this is what — even if she's not mad — I think this is what drives her, sort of domme instincts later on. When, whenever they, whenever they meet or whenever things happen, because she's really interested in these power dynamics and how she can ultimately whether it's, you know, inflict the most whatever or get the most enjoyment out of the situation. I could just see your face going...

I'm sorry. That's awful. Nathan, why would you say such thing? How dare? Gasp!

No, what I — what I was gonna say to tag on to that is as far as we know, she's the only female Death Eater.

Really?

Yeah, like because we only really know as far as like the Slytherin women go. Like there's the Black sisters, which... Narcissa is, like, really not proactively involved. She's married to Lucius —

Schuyler sisters!

And of course, Andromeda marries Tonks, and so then, that's... you know, they have their... she's completely separate from and has absolved herself from anything like that. She's the only one who had the, once again, ambition to push herself to be someone of a female of value within that group.

Hello! Editing Megs here. Just letting you know, yes, I realized that Alecto Carrow is, in fact, a woman and also a Death Eater. At the time, forgot she existed. I mean, for the most part in the books, they talk about the Carrows. And she has a very small part. So I apologize for forgetting her. But it is what it is. So I acknowledge my mistake. And I apologize for that. I swear I know things!

Like when you look at every — I mean, you, I think you read through the list. And I'm like, I don't think that there is another woman! Like it's just her! Because even though with her, example, like she has her husband, who's also in the Death Eaters, so it could have been like a Lucius situation where he and his brother, you know, they were involved and then she's just like the wife, but no, she almost takes a more proactive role than her husband does. Like we forget he's there. You know, the fact that she is married and, you know, and they were in Azkaban together and then after that, we're just, like, Rabastan? Who's that? Who's that? Like? Where did he go? We don't know. And —

Is it not Rodolphus?

Rodolphus is the brother of Rabastan. Right? She's married to Rabastan? If that's how it said? I don't know... Tessa! Don't you — don't, yeah, don't yell at us, Tessa.

I really thought she was... this is this is probably, this is probably gonna get cut. But this is the moment — this is — every week, I have a moment where I do something that is like, I haven't read the books. And this week, it's gonna be that I think she's married to Rodolphus.

Oh she is married to Rodolphus! Just kidding! Yes, she is. Like, I don't know. I have that backwards.

Anyway! She's married to a guy that we don't pay attention to.

Oh my god. I have definitely been going the other route and I feel so stupid. [Laughs]

Now you know how I feel every single week when I make a mistake like this, so... welcome!

This is my Weasley brother. [Laughs] Hey, I know a lot! Sorry that, you know. Yeah, Rodolphus is, is definitely who she's married to.

Yeah! Anyway. The point is, it's somebody's beginning with R that we don't pay attention to, for reasons of them being boring as fuck.

Or whatever. Exactly. Oh so good.

I never framed her in the context of her being the only female Death Eater. But it's interesting you say that because there is this sort of tendency in fantasy literature or supernatural literature to queer-code female villains. And do you think that the character of Bellatrix then is just JKR's way of playing up that sort of Ursula pantomime villain? Where, because she's a villainess, and she's a Death Eater, she has to be this sadistic, twisted figure that's very, that's well, I imagine that she would frame that in a context of like sexual deviance. Yeah. Or, you know?

Yeah. I, it kind of goes off to what, I think in our first episode, when we started talking about Umbridge, and how she was written and how people hate her to such an extent. But mainly it's like, oh, she's a woman, like, a lot of it stems from the fact that she's a woman. If a man made those decisions, if a man did that, like, if it... if if her character was replaced by, say, her husband, I don't think it would have had as much of an impact as it does with her.

Right.

And it's just it's yeah, it's interesting you say and then just like I'd mentioned before, the fact that we have Helena Bonham-Carter as her... which like, she's amazing. She's like, the most amazing Bellatrix they ever could have cast. And we just were drawn to her and she does the, like, wild unhinged so well, that it's like, we know the character. Like if anything I took away from the movies like a lot of the characters, I don't like picture in fanfiction. Like, they're not necessarily representational of who I think. But when I think Bellatrix I think of her 100%. She's one of the few, like, yeah, that's one of the few that I actually am like, okay, that's her. And yeah, she's hot. She's, she's crazy. She's like, you know? And she's wearing, like corsets and leather and, and even like, the long dress, and she's just like, I don't know, she's just... Yeah, I don't know. She's, she's definitely I — Whatever. Yes, I agree. I don't have words right now, yeah. But... But absolutely, yeah.

I see... I don't know, if it furthers the LGBTQIA+ cause to, to necessarily throw all of those characteristics at a character and see what sticks. I don't — I don't know if it's, you know, if that, if that helps the cause or hinders it, or if it's reductive, or if it's actually quite progressive. But I think it sits somewhere in the middle, where I'm glad that that representation is there. I wish we saw more of a spectrum of representation across the characters. You know, obviously, we, we don't in canon, because J.K. Rowling is who she is.

Yeah. Who? Huh? What?

[Laughs]

And okay, so what I was thinking, you know, just whatever... Processing, as I do, when it comes to, obviously, the intensity of Bellatrix's character... do you think when it comes to fanfiction, in particular, the reason why, not necessarily, I mean, obviously, you know, in the realm of like, Bellamione, but because she's such an intense, strong, you know, domme portrayal? Do we feel like her in like, a femslash situation makes the most sens? Versus her being like in a het scenario of just being a domme over, like, I guess, like her husband or some other guy like, whether it's like they're whatever, you know, like just having like, a woman beneath her to, like, essentially overpower and be above? I don't know, I just — I can see the appeal as we talk about Hermione and how... not that Hermione isn't like secret kinky. She probably, well, I think a lot of fic does show that.

Oh yeah, we've talked about that before, yeah.

We have — we have brought that up, where it's like she reads a lot of books, so we know that she knows whatever.

In chapter 37 of the Kama Sutra, this position is mentioned. Now what I'd really like to do is try reverse cowgirl this week? Okay. So, yeah, I definitely — I definitely feel like Hermione has an encyclopedic knowledge of different, shall we say, erotic strategy. That's how she'd approach that, I think. I think she'd have a very methodical approach, whereas Bellatrix I think you asked if in fanfiction, it's more interesting to see her in a femslash situation. And I definitely think that it is, because we see her set up as this transgressive boundary pushing character who is... who skirts the fringes of madness. And I definitely think it's interesting to explore that in a less conventional setting. So I'm not — I'm not saying it's mad, if you're a woman, to love another woman. But what I am saying, I'm saying that I think it's so interesting, because I don't think, given a choice, Bellatrix would settle for any easy options.

Right.

And I think if you throw her against somebody like Hermione, who is so booksmart and regimented and pragmatic and practical, to then... have her engage in a sort of a rough and tumble scenario where everything's a bit more wild and frenetic and passionate. I want to read that because it's exciting to me!

And a couple of things on Hermione. Like not only is Hermione all those things, but it's a threat to Bellatrix because she's a Muggleborn. For her to have all those skills and not be of Pureblood stock, like, it's like, it's... it's got to be like this... another mindfuck for her.

Mmhmm.

And I also see, like, if we're going into like a canon situation, Hermione is actually like, really tough as hell. Like she was freaking being carved into, like, for a while, you know, like, she's freaking writing Mudblood into her skin with a dagger, and she doesn't talk. You know, she's just essentially like, she's screaming and obviously, you know, like being tortured, but she doesn't break. So I feel like that's something that people probably see as far as that little, like, slice of their dynamic because Hermione pushes back. Like, she doesn't just like let herself be overpowered. So that's also something that you could see with like, the power dynamic of her, her consensually, you know, submitting herself to her too. So, yeah.

Yes, exactly! But there is an element of Hermione's resilience that comes from everything she's lived through. Everything that she has been faced with. And she's — we've talked about her emotional intelligence before, but she is incredibly resilient. You know, I'm thinking about the Mountain Troll in first year, I'm thinking about coming up against Peter Pettigrew, or Sirius Black when they think he is evil. I'm talking about you know, having to coach Harry through his Triwizard phase, all this other stuff, setting up the... the DA, you know, suggesting that Harry tutor them.

She knows that lupins a werewolf for like, months, you know, and she like sits on that and like, yeah, it's like...

Yes! And it's incredibly significant that she chooses not to talk about that, because she knows that in the wrong hands, that information can be incredibly damaging. So she... but this is what I mean about her being so emotionally switched on. She's so... she has such subtlety. She's so mature for her age. She isn't just intellectually rigorous. She's emotionally brilliant. And that's why she's able to stand up to someone like Bellatrix because she... not only is she not going to break, she'll know exactly what breaking would mean for her. And I think she will feel that her character has come through enough that you know, if we're dealing in a consensual relationship, of course, it's different, because the... you know, the the exchange of power is a bit more free flowing, but then if we get into potential non con areas, things get interesting again. Because you have Bellatrix's brute force essentially coming up against Hermione's very honed skill and lived experience. So I think that, you know, any combination of having the two of them together, it's gonna be frenetic. It's going to be overcharged. It's going to be this... this massive, you know, display of fireworks. How that happens is up to the writer.

Yeah, exactly. And something that I can't help but think about, in regards to like, say Hermione is like Bellatrix's prisoner, whatever. I could see Narcissa being someone who like secretly comes to, like, care for Hermione. Even though, like, she can't like help her or free her or anything like that. It's like the mother in her, like, knows and sees what's happening, but she's not going to stop her sister because she's like, she probably even says like, "Oh, it's my sister. Like, there's nothing I can do." But she's like, secretly, you know... So then I'm like, I'm like, "Oh, now we're getting to Cissamione!" Where she's like, then... then all of a sudden, it's like a different sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where she's like, "Oh, now I'm falling for the sister who technically isn't really doing a lot for me, but is doing more for me than the other crazy one." [Laughs]

We are just, you know, throwing out all the wholesome tropes this week.

Oh, yeah. Oh yes, so many!

[Laughs]

So then yes, then there's that too. Stockholm Syndrome, of like being kept, being a prisoner, and then eventually either seeing the side of — because people love redeeming villains, right? I love redeeming villains. So Bella is another interesting case to be like, how the hell do we do that? Once again, like, obviously, AU can help us do that. But also, it's like, how can we break that down? So like, eventually, over time, say Bella gets tired of like, keeping the mask on or like she... she is a certain way publicly to like, maintain her status among men? Like if you think about it, like she

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and then when she's kind of on her own, either be that with her sister or whatever, it's just, it's different. So like, even though she's gonna still have this, these feelings toward Hermione most likely starting negatively, like she... Hermione's going to be stubborn, but then eventually could start seeing the little bits of of good and vulnerability in Bellatrix that just starts to create a different sort of, you know, relationship for them. And yeah.

I'm just, I'm just thinking of a sort of a Beauty and the Beast type scenario.

Yes. Yeah, that's exactly what I was... Yeah.

Where — because Emma Watson played Belle, so of course, my mind goes there — and she, you know, Bellatrix is this real beastly character. She is... she's all aggression and all fire and all passion. And it's very — it is calculated, but she's all in. She's just presented purely as deranged. And it'd be really interesting to — because I love anybody that knows me will know that I love psychological deconstruction.

Mmhmm.

I love figuring out why people think the way they do. And I think —

Yes!

And I think... once you start deconstructing why, like you say, she has to behave in a certain way to keep up with all the other... the, you know, the male Death Eaters or whoever it is. Then once she's, you know, privately vulnerable, or in a different set of circumstances, she can start to let her guard down.

Right.

And, I mean, what sort of a person do you imagine that Bellatrix is when that mask begins to slip?

[Laughs] Man, that's so... that's so hard to think. I just, I feel like we don't get to see it. But I think a big part of it is (1) She... I like to think that the three sisters were really close growing up, like they just, like, they stuck together. Pretty close in age, as far as like, my understanding goes. And then I could see Andromeda's, like, you know, defection to just like do something different could really have been like, emotionally damaging to Bella. So I could see her latching onto Narcissa. You know what I mean? Like, holding... like, she's, she's what she has left. So I feel like they could have a very combination wholesome/toxic relationship, because Bella might be a little bit more dependent on Narcissa then she would like to let on publicly, because as far as we know, like, Bella doesn't have kids and Narcissa... it's just, you know, it's just common that, like, someone who has children, it's just, it's easy for them to think in the perspective of caring for another person, like, just thinking of others before yourself. Whereas Bella has only ever known like, really, you know, it's the Bella show. So I —

Yeah.

I feel like you could see them, like, if... if Hermione was to witness some private time between Narcissa and Bella, I feel like she would see a completely different person. Like she'd laugh, she'd smile, she'd... you know? Like, I just... I feel like that would be probably their secret, like, even like Narcissa being like the trophy, you know, the trophy wife, essentially. Like she's just... she's the wife. And she has to put on a certain mask of her own but she also like, loves her son and would do whatever for her son. But I think that it's the only opportunity for them to kind of... I don't know? Be free to just be vulnerable and not feel like they have to act a certain way because of men that they, you know, have in their lives.

Right. Yeah. People have ribbed me for saying "absolutely." So when I say things like "mmhmm" and "yeah," you should know as you're listening that I'm really struggling desperately for alternatives like "absolutely."

Absolutely! Definitely! [Laughs]

Oh, definitely, 100%. Or, as listeners have reminded me, like in the first episode that we ever did, I always said like, "for me," so thankfully, I've stopped —

"What's interesting is..." [Laughs]

Yeah, yeah. "See, I really feel like..." Anyway, so... So you you mentioned that... I do have a point.

Okay, again, we're circling back. Okay.

Yeah. You mentioned that canonically as far as we know, Bella doesn't have any children. Do we have to — do we have to talk about the —

No, no, we don't.

The Delphi-shaped hole in the room?

[Laughs]

Okay. Which so...

I mean, we can, I don't... whatever.

It is the... it is the official opinion of this podcast —

I'm sorry.

— that, that certain texts do not exist. We are, you know, we're not opposed to the idea of you liking particular texts.

Yes. No, absolutely, absolutely.

If you love Cursed Child, we are here to support you.

Mmhmm.

But, but there is just so much in that text that goes against —

Everything.

— what we... what we agree with, like... So. So we're not, we're not going to talk about like that side of Bella. My headcanon for Bella always was — and this is a bit of a downer, but we'll circle...

Uh-huh?

So my headcanon always was that the reason that she's so dark is because she tried to have a life like her sister did. She had a secret relationship with somebody that her family wouldn't have approved of. And she got pregnant with a child. But she never carried to term. And, and losing that child was like losing all of the hope that came with that relationship. And so she felt like she couldn't pursue it. It wasn't for her. For whatever reason, she... I don't know, maybe she was cursed by someone. So she couldn't, she couldn't carry a child. But I always felt like part of the reason she was so venomous and so ardent in her pursuit of power, is because she tried her shot at the life that her sister had, and then felt bitter because it was something that she felt permanently excluded from.

Mmhmm.

And so it propelled her into this. So I'm now thinking with these situations, where she's with Hermione, she starts to get glimmers of that happiness again, that... that feeling like she could, you know, come face to face with something other than just the absolute inevitability of, you know, whatever being a Death Eater means. And of course, that scares her, coming face to face with that. The reality of a situation where she's not going to be judged. She is not going to be constantly set against these values of having to be, you know, having to conform, having to be a certain way. That frightens her. And so, in opening up to Hermione, there's potentially an awful lot of discussion about trauma that we need to go into.

Yeah. Mmhmm.

Because I don't think it's one of these things where... you know, it's not a Gilderoy Lockhart situation, where you have the convenience of amnesia.

Yeah. [Laughs]

To, to wipe away any sort of idea of the past. So obviously, we know Hermione is incredibly patient, because she's grown up with Harry and Ron. You have to develop a certain amount of patience and understanding there. And she's incredibly resilient. I could just see the... that meticulous side of Hermione working in Bella's favor when it comes to unpacking all of this stuff. And so yes, that's what allows it to be really hot and steamy in certain contexts, but it's also what allows for the longevity of the relationship and the potential for them to stay together as more than just a one night stand or, you know, a product of the Stockholm Syndrome that their relationship has to start with. Because, yeah, it's terrible that, you know, Hermione is sort of backed into a corner and has to engage with this. But, but, as we all know, good things can happen. Even if they seem terrible when you're going through them, you know, the good... good can happen and can manifest in unexpected ways.

So something I was thinking about was we always talk about how the wizarding world needs therapy, right?

Yes, nonstop.

So let's say — nonstop therapy. [Laughs] So let's say that part of what Hermione does post-war is that she decides to become a therapist. And then she actually works at Azkaban and works

Whoa!

With some reforming, like Death Eaters, or like people who survived the war, because obviously, like anyone involved who didn't die, they're all in Azkaban, you know? And so then

Oh, yeah.

She, being Hermione, even though it was terrible was like, we need to find a way to move forward and hope that these types of ideals aren't like, you know, don't carry forward. So sorry, you can you can say the thing

I belched!

You just burped? [Laughs] I thought you had something important to say, and you're just waving in front of your face apparently because...

No, no. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. She works at Azkaban.

Yes.

She's... she's dealing with a reformed prison system. She's helping Death Eaters through therapy, or at the very least implementing the system that will help them through therapy.

Right. And so then I picture, obviously, kind of like a Joker/Harley Quinn situation, where she slowly after, you know, trying to treat Bellatrix, like falls in love with her. And be that (A) it could be yes, like, in a non toxic Joker/Harley Quinn way where like he manipulates her and totally gaslights her. And yeah, I just feel like that's got, you know, an opportunity there too. But regardless, it's Hermione's belief in believing that there has to be some glimmer of good in everybody. And so she does that she sees the separation, that she's personally gone through. Muggleborn versus Pureblood and seeing all of the, you know, different, like classes and separations of people and her being like, you know, what, I'm Hermione fucking Granger. And I'm going to do something about this. And takes it upon herself to try and bridge that gap and, or at least understand why they are the way they are, or think the way they think. I mean, you think of any sort of, like, true crime or things like that. It's like, why, why did they do that? And like learning the psychology behind it, or genuinely, it was like, they were raised a certain kind of way, or literally, they have something, you know, a mental illness, and there's things behind that. But it's, I just think it plays into her wanting to learn and understand more. So that's what I just... I could see her doing that.

Yeah, absolutely. But it is a bit like Silence of the Lambs, except where you know, Clarice is wooing Hannibal Lecter, that the... the dynamic would have to that also have to be some element of transference, right? Which is that phenomenon where people fall in love with their therapists, because they're being emotionally vulnerable.

Yes! Mmhmm, mmhmm.

So... so I definitely see if that is the... if that is the case. And Hermione is going, you know, two or three times a week to, to Bella's cell. And slowly but surely, you know, they're unpacking the emotional baggage or whatever. Yeah, I can also see Hermione wondering. Having the internal dialogue of, "Am I actually getting through to this woman?"

Right.

"Or is she... or is she being clever, and putting up a front of what she thinks I want to hear?" Because they... because they both are very clever people. And they both have to be aware of each other's capacity for shrewdness and awareness outside of intelligence. And I really see this being like the mind game of mind games.

Oh, for sure! Yeah.

You know, it's more, it's... Whereas Tom and Harry, it's more sort of visceral and subtle. And, you know, it sort of can slowly ramp up over time. I feel like this is a this is a... a case where there are explosions of intensity that can meet in any different combination of ways, but I really love the idea that there is a reformed Azkaban. And that in that way, nobody is absolutely beyond healing or beyond saving. There is a really interesting idea in this that says that the hopelessness that one might feel of realizing that you've gone down the wrong path, you know, it's never too late to course-correct. And I know there are those people that disagree with that philosophy, because there are the people that follow Sartre that say, you know, we're only the sum of all of our choices. And while that's true to an extent, how redeemable is somebody like Bellatrix? When, you know, we know that she's, she's deranged? Essentially, she... she's absolutely gone off the rails at some point. The question is, can somebody like Hermione put her back on the rails? Or is their relationship built out of an inescapable need for Bella to be wild and fiery, and for Hermione to need to explore beyond the, you know, the boundaries of the life that she's had up to that point?

Oh, gosh, that's so much to unpack. [Laughs] That's so many questions at once, Nathan! So let's see here. What was I thinking? There was —

If you don't stop me, I just talk and talk and talk and talk!

— the thing and then the more things and then the thing. No, it's great, no it's great!

[Dracula accent] I'm going to talk to you in unbearably long, unbroken sentences.

Oh no, we got accents! Is this Dracula?

You know, I'm going Transylvanian, because it's Halloween.

[Laughs] That's true.

So yes, so I produced an essay for about 20 minutes.

Okay, I don't remember anything that you asked. But what I am going to go back to is something that popped in my head as you were talking.

[Laughs] We're not having a conversation anymore. This... you don't need another person. You just need a wall to bounce ideas off. No, by all means, continue. What am I even doing?

[Laughs] I'm sorry! Oh, no. So, everyone else... you can obviously rewind and listen back to any... whatever he was asking. And then please answer him, because I can't... Anyway, so I loved the bit that you talked about with them not knowing whether it's genuine or not, like whether Bella is manipulating the situation. Because that's also like Tom Riddle, like, wait, like, she knows. Like, you could like you could anticipate, like, you could think like, oh, it's another instance where like, maybe she's a super attractive woman, you know? And so she uses that to her advantage too! Like, she knows that it's a tool to use. And so she's like, been, like, trained and ingrained into that, like, narcissistic, manipulative, like, conniving, like knows exactly what to do and say, to get the response that she needs. And it's just like, there's so many instances because, I'll be honest, I've been... I struggled through bipolar disorder. So I've been through every realm as far as like, depression, mania, you name it. And even like sense of like unfeeling-ness, you know what I mean? And going through therapy and things and knowing exactly what to say to just like, be done with it. You know what I mean? Like —

Yeah.

— you know what to say. You know what they want to hear. And so I could see Bella being exactly that. But then at the same time, Hermione being smart enough to know what's going on. And so she just like, she's just like, you know, it's like, "I have all the time in the world Bella," like, "I'll see you next week." You know what I mean? Like, just like not even giving up on it just like, it's like, all right, like, see you next week. Just like the same thing every time until finally it just like... she breaks down or something like that. But yeah, I guess I just think luckily, Hermione is the one person for sure that I feel like would not fall for any of her bullshit. So that's just...

Absolutely. So you know that thing. So I've been in, in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy before. And one of the things my therapist asked me to do was to keep a journal of my thoughts over the week, whatever. And I thought about how this could be applied to the wizarding world. So in my head, what's happening is: Hermione is giving Bella the homework of, "Here is a Pensieve. Put memories into it that you want to deal with in our sessions." Right? And I feel like, whether or not... I feel like what will happen is Bella will — whether she wants to or not — involuntarily, or whatever. But no, let me start this again.

Okay. Roll it back.

So my point was... Anyway, they end up experiencing the memory of, you know, being in love and having to walk away from that life. And in that moment, Hermione sees Bella's real vulnerability. And I get this thing of like, there would be resistance there from Bella, because she doesn't want Hermione to see it. She's kept up this front for a while. But having that barrier broken down allows Hermione to see this side of this torturer that she really has never seen before. And if that is possible, then I could see, you know, one falling for the other, you know, however that happens.

Personally, I don't feel like Hermione would feel comfortable with this, but I could see part of the treatment being taking... like, just it's, just part of it is like... they are collecting memories of these people. Like either to (1) analyze, like for for science, you know what I mean? Like, just like, life experiences of these people, or (2) to like, revisit hand in hand with said person to like, like help with the, like coping and processing of, like, and especially like things later on, like maybe even things, you know, difficult things from the war. I don't know, I just I don't think Hermione would be okay with that. But I could see it being a thing. Like I could see that being something that would happen.

Yeah, it's it borders on the intrusive though.

Right. Right.

It's a bit like Veritaserum, where once once the person has drunk it, they have no choice. So... so I could see, in the old days of Azkaban before reform, I could see Veritaserum being used to obtain the confessions out of people or whatever. And I think if Hermione's coming in to reform this incredibly well, we know the wizard, the wizarding world has a really weird view of criminal justice anyway. Because no, no one really has a trial, people are just sentenced. And that's fine. There's —

And then there's Azkaban. And then there's, there's just Azkaban. [Laughs] We don't hear about like, probation, or like, you know, like, just like.

Or rehabilitation, yeah!

Yeah! You're just like, Oh, you're bad. You go to Azkaban. You know what I mean? It's just like, what? Like, it's just... it's, it's all or nothing sort of thing.

It's very... there's no revolving-door prison system.

No. [Laughs]

It's very black and white.

Yeah.

And I could see Hermione, in particular, having a problem with that, because she would have, especially being a therapist, she'd have this understanding that everyone's been through trauma. So everyone has different coping mechanisms for that. Not all coping mechanisms are healthy. And a lot of destructive behavior and a lot of toxic behavior comes from having these incredibly destructive coping mechanisms for what you've been through. And I could definitely see that that stuff goes on. Whether or not it goes on and she's aware of it is a different, different kettle of fish entirely.

Now I'm picturing group therapy, where Hermione comes in, like, and has like a cookie spread, you know what I mean? Like, she just like, sets up this whole like, punch and cookies and, like, has the circle of chairs, and like maybe starts off with like, kind of like the overly, like, sweet and, you know, like, therapist, whatever. And just, like, slowly over time, like is able to kind of like, you know, change or whatever. But yeah. I think it'd be really interesting to see a bunch of Death Eaters, like in a room, like, like, forced, like group therapy. And what that would be, and the kind of questions Hermione would be like, "Oh, like Avery, are you ready to share?" and says nothing, and she's like, "Okay, let's move on to whoever!" Or something like that. I think it'd be really funny,

There is this really big question of can... can Death Eaters be redeemed?

Right.

But ultimately, on this podcast, if we have redeemed Voldemort... By virtue of redeeming Voldemort, we cannot therefore say that any Death Eater is also beyond redemption.

Exactly.

So I would really... from the listeners, like the crack fic where Death Eaters are in group therapy.

Yes.

And they're all, you know, and they each have different issues, but they all like are talking to each other about them. And being like, "I didn't even want to be a Death Eater for any evil reasons. I just thought I just thought the Dark Mark was really cool!"

Yeah! Okay, so now I'm picturing: Hermione, like, runs the thing. Like she might be like the main therapist or psychiatrist or something like that. But then Luna runs group therapy. [Laughs]

[Laughs] Oh no!

And I also picture like, of course, like, I wouldn't imagine Voldemort being like the only one who could use like Legilimency or whatever. Like, say Bella was one of them. Imagine her trying to get inside Luna's head and just seeing the disaster of whatever nonsense that's in there. Just like whoa, like, I don't wanna be in there.

Yeah, only Luna can decipher the maze of... the maze of, well, it isn't even madness.

Yeah.

It's just so childlike in Luna's brain, that her intelligence hops from one idea to another. It's sort of like mental hopscotch. And Bella is just so used to seeing, you know, these elaborate mazes in people's minds. And Luna's is just like she's constantly playing. So Bella just doesn't know how to make sense of it at all. So whoa, this is really, really weird. But I, I have to imagine that there are procedures against performing Legilimency on each other.

Right.

Because that that would be a real, you know, broom in the in the spokes of trying to get any therapy done. Because you know, there'd be no hiding behind clever words. People would just know what your intention was.

I picture like the tinfoil hats, like from Signs, you know? [Laughs] Okay, I have things to talk about. So as far as like an alternative use, like getting away from like, okay, yeah, she's evil and joined Voldemort. So let's say, a situation where she doesn't. She's actually one of the few who doesn't join Voldemort. But she's still Bella. Like, she's still smart and shrewd and like, has like, she has all those things, but never... was not to the extent of getting involved in that regard. And I think what is it, Stargazer, she's one of our listeners, and —

Right!

We love her today!

Hello, Stargazer!

Hello! So, one of... I just started one of her fics, like, you know, prepping for the podcast. But it was a longer one, so I saved it for later because I wanted to read a bunch of other stuff before I got to that one.

Nice.

Hers starts off focused around, from what I understand — correct me if I'm wrong — but Bella didn't join Voldemort. She ended up as a professor at Hogwarts. And so come postwar Eighth Year is when Hermione like has this crush on Bella.

Mmhmm.

And Bella is actually an Animagus. And Hermione finds out about that and then Bella teaches her how to become an Animagus. And all during this time, she's like —

Right.

— hot for teacher, which of course is great. I love the student/teacher.

Yes.

However, they are of age because it's like Eighth Year whatever. So if that's, you know —

Nice.

— you know, but it's still age difference, whatever.

Very nice.

But I'm excited to keep reading it. I'm really sucked into it, but I'm... it's, it's definitely the example of why I love Snarry so much, where it's like I'm seeing Hermione and Harry's perspective and then Bella is in the same, you know, shoes.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I'm really digging that. I really like that. But it's definitely AU, like obviously it's not... she's still Bella as I said, but she's not like crazy. She's just the teacher you don't want to mess with. So like that's... you know, once again gives me Snape vibes so I've loved it so far. I'm excited to keep keep going with it.

Well, that sounds like so much fun. And I love the... I love their age dynamic. I love that they're not aged up or, you know, made to be the same age. I think it's really interesting to play about in that space for a bit and see what would happen. Because obviously Eighth Year is post-war. So once the... once, you know, once the dust has settled with that, then you can really... you know, we know I love character exploration as they become adults and particularly adult exploration as they become adults and I just think yeah...

Eyebrow wiggle! [Laughs]

That was an excellent visual bit. For our for our listeners that are not on Patreon, first of all, why aren't you?

[Laughs]

And second of all, Megs' eyebrow-wiggling ability is exquisite. It's Megs-quisite.

Oh my goodness. [Laughs]

So... but yes, so they're, they're having the student teacher dynamic that then becomes something. And learning things from one another.

Private lessons and all that! Oh, another prompt that I keep going back to as like, I'm exploring Bellamione is thinking — because I love... what I loved about Tomarry was Harry going back in time and fixing things. So I'm like, okay, what would... why would Hermione want to go back in time and fix something which would then mean she bumps into Bellatrix? So be that after... postwar or before everything, I picture her going back in time to stop the Lestranges from torturing the Longbottoms.

Right. Yes, yes!

So like she goes back to make sure that Neville's parents are never, like, tortured to insanity. So that Neville has, you know, essentially has his parents and all that. So then of course, going back she's like, either maybe she's like following, you know, keeping tabs on the Lestranges or Bella or things like that and trying to figure out when and how this happens and keeping things from happening. Who... I don't know, I don't know the story. I just know that she goes back in time to save the Longbottoms and she runs into Bellatrix. And they fall in love. The end. [Laughs]

Well, that's really what I want from this. Yeah,

That's it.

Yeah, it's that thing of where, you know, I'm not a fan of the logistics of time travel. But I am a fan of the breadth and scope that time travel gives you to be able to play around with character. And I definitely think part of the reason it's so tough to redeem Bellatrix is that we know specifically what she's doing. A lot of death Death Eaters, we're never given details of the crimes they commit. But with Bella, we know what she does. Well we know some of what she does, anyway.

Yeah, we see the trial. We see, you know, like... and her lack of like, empathy or remorse or guilt as far as like what she's charged for. And yeah, what was it she was described as like a woman who took her seat like, like it was a throne?

Oh, yes. She's very proud. She's very proud of being "the Dark Lord's most faithful servant."

Exactly, exactly.

That voice almost verged on Dobby, didn't it?

[Laughs] That was... I mean, Dobby could be the most faithful servant...

It's the Jar Jar Binks thing, isn't it? Of Jar Jar being a Sith Lord.

Mmhmm.

Dobby is secretly, you know, the ultimate dark weapon. Anyway, anyway. Yes, yes. She Bella is this incredibly imperious, proud lieutenant of the... of the Dark Lord. And she is, she's proud of the suffering she inflicts. Because it's a... it's a symbol of her rise to power and rise to claim her place as somebody of significance. She clearly wants to be recognized for her talent, for her, you know, because it is talent of a sort. I mean, it's sick and twisted and wrong. But it's... in order to do that to someone, you have to be able to, you have to cross that line. And she is incredibly happy to have done it.

Mmhmm.

So to be able to intervene before that happens and show her that you don't necessarily need to torture people to insanity to feel like you have some relevance, that there is a different story at work for you, that could be incredibly powerful. Of course, you know, as well as that, I keep coming back to this idea that the Harry Potter books means villains to work. Because you know, you have to have a hero's journey. You have to have adversaries. You have to have obstacles to overcome. So it's easy when you're just presenting a narrative from one character's perspective to go, "Oh, they're evil!"

Yeah, yeah.

That's all they are. They're just evil. We don't need to touch that.

Yep, the end.

When you start — yeah, exactly — when you start coming into fanfiction, you can go, "Actually, they're more nuanced than that. And the reason you see them as evil, or just presented in that way, is because a character needed in that way to advance his story. But that isn't the only story we can tell."

Yeah, it's like what Big Black Dog said when we were doing the, like, Wolfstar-ish episode. With Snape, it's like, in the first book, I mean, essentially, it's like, oh, he's the mean teacher. Like, he's the villain. Like, like, you're, you know, you're 11, reading this book, and you're just like, oh, yeah, like he's, you know, he's the bad guy. And so yeah, like, we just kind of see the villains as who they are. And their goals are the same. It's almost like one piece, versus we see all the individual characters have like, everyone's piece to the puzzle. Like everyone in the Order has a different personality and job and, and direction. But then you're just like, oh, yeah, and then there's all then all the Death Eaters were there, you know? And it's like, it's like, oh, we're going to do we're gonna deal with the Death Eaters. Like, it's not necessarily, like, specific, you know, things. We do get those glimpses, especially of like, Bellatrix, like, as you said, but... But yeah, I mean, we definitely are just, we just see them as... yeah, they're the villains. So I love when we can get in their brains and see all the reasons behind it. Because, I mean, especially for, like, you know, Bella, I mean, who knows what kind of traumas as a child she could have been through? That could have been different from you know, what Narcissa experienced. Or what Andromeda experienced like, who knows what, you know, what her growing up, you know, situation was. I can't remember who's, who's the oldest?

Bellatrix is the eldest. Yeah.

Yeah, so Bellatrix was the oldest. So she definitely had probably the most pressures on her, as far as like family goes. Making a good marriage or things, like which also plays into like, just as someone who has made the choice not to have to children I have a problem with like... not that these stories aren't important, but it's like hearing a story that the reason why she is what she is was because of something compelled by the fact that she wanted to have kids and couldn't and yeah, blah, blah.

So right, okay.

I validate your, you know, I validate what you said, and I completely believe it. But for me, it's like, I just... I just picture, maybe like, maybe she is a lesbian. Like maybe she does have like a secret love that she wants to be with, but then can't because she's like, once again, Schuyler Sisters. [Laughs]

Yes.

She has to... she's like been arranged to marry, Rodolphus. [Laughs] And so then something happens where like, she obviously has to keep, you know, said person a secret and is hoping to be able to keep them both. But of course, like, you know, the other person is like, I can't be like your number two or I can't be that plan B or I can't be your dirty little secret. And then it totally —

Yeah.

You know, that was like, that was her big heartbreak. You know, so it's just, that's, that's what I think of when I think of something that she gets lost or broken in love is, you know, something like that. Like, once again, she had a relationship that was impossible, like, at least in the regard of like, Andromeda was, you know, burned off the tree, but it's like, oh, but she still got married. She still had children. Like, she's still like, you know, as much as they don't like the way the line is going, like, she's still like having children. Versus, like, Bella knows if she had a life that didn't end with potentially children —which is kind of funny, like thinking about it, because she doesn't, you know, like, as far as we know, in the books — and

She doesn't. She does not.

Yeah, so they're like, in the end, they're of the age that they would, you know, they would have by then for sure. So yeah, so I don't know. But yeah, so that's my, that's my two cents on that.

Yeah, I definitely think you shouldn't be defined as a person by whether or not you choose to have children. I absolutely, I absolutely agree with that. I just think that whatever it... whatever it is, there needs to be some sort of emotional wound there in her.

Oh, for sure.

That... that causes her to go over the edge and, and really lean into her psychotic behavior. So getting to a place where she can be with Hermione in a stable, long term way, is a bit of a stretch for me, depending on the circumstances that that happens in. Because ultimately, you know, we've discussed this before, I want everybody to end up in a place where I feel that, well, maybe if they're not happy, at least it's —

Yeah.

— at least they're getting to a place where it's towards growth or happiness or whatever, however, you want to turn that. And, you know, it's difficult with a character like Bellatrix because she was so... The pendulum of her life had swung so far one way that it is hard to conceptualize bringing that back into the center again, and, you know, moving forward in a healthier way. But if anybody could do it, if anyone could get through to her, I'm convinced it is somebody like Hermione, whose clinical, no nonsense, you know, laser of truth can cut through whatever defenses Bella puts up. I really do love the idea that their aftercare is really is... is really like weirdly fluffy.

Mmhmm!

Because it's so like, I love that image. I love the I don't necessarily see them in a domestic fluff situation.

Right.

But I definitely see the heat and intensity of their play together being matched against an equally fluffy aftercare type situation. And I want the characters to get there. It's just I have that mental image in my head. I just don't know how they get there. So if you, if you listening — and I am talking to you directly now — have ideas about how to get the characters there, let me know so that I... so that you can write that or I can write that or we can write it together! Who knows?

Exactly. No, I love that. I also really like the idea of Bellatrix being the spy versus Snape.

Yes, yes.

Yeah. So like she's actually you know, part of the Order and she's the one who's kind of, you know, been the one. So of course she, you know, interacts with you know, Hermione and the Order and everything like that. And I could see Hermione being very impressed by her. Like that's an opportunity for her to like... she like, maybe when she's younger, looks up to Bellatrix, like her bravery, her, you know, everything that she does to... putting herself out there again and again. And then maybe later on when Hermione is older like that, that feeling of admiration and awe or like... shifts into something, you know, a bit different.

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I definitely think as you're... as you grow up, the people you venerate, like the gloss can come off a little bit. And growing up is as much about redefining your relationships with everybody as it is about exploring your relationships romantically. So for Hermione, who is very astute — because we already talked about that — to have that, to decide to go, "Do you know what? I could probably have my pick of most wizards, or witches, but I want to explore this side of myself with someone who I wouldn't be expected to like or to get along with." And I love that! I love that that could be a form of rebellion for Hermione. That she's gonna be like, "Do you know what? You know, maybe we can, like, wear matching corsets."

Mmhmm!

You know? I just... I love the idea of like Hermione turning up at a party that Ron organizes or something. And she's just... and she's got the, she's transformed her hair to be like Bellatrix's. And they turn up wearing matching corsets. And she's... and Bellatrix just sort of saunters in like, "Weasley." And I just, I just love that. If their relationship develops to a point where Hermione is happy and satisfied that it's not going to be this hurt thing, then everybody else in the universe has to adjust accordingly. And the potential for comedy there is so ripe for the picking! I just, I'd love to see that. There are, there are so many scenes that I want the characters to be in.

Mmhmm.

And I just, I see that the potential for the relationship is huge. I just, in this instance, don't know how to make it work so it sticks. And I think we normally do a thing near the end of the episodes where, you know, we ask each other, "Do you ship it?" Well, this one's kind of complicated.

Yeah. It depends on the situation. Yeah, like I —

Exactly.

I see it, like I understand it. I can see the situations that it does happen in. But I mean, but just as me, not being like, you know, femslash like — I'll read it, but I'm not like, all into it — but I can see why people like it. And I see why it can be played with and all the different stuff. Obviously, we spent over an hour talking about it. But — [Laughs]

Yeah.

There's like lots of instances that it works. And I do love the idea of the redeemed villain. I do love the idea of finding love against all odds. So I just... I think that, yeah, it can it can end up being very beautiful. And I think there's only like, I don't know, like at most 2000... well, I say "only." [Laughs] But seriously! Still, only 2000 Bellamione, I think, stories on AO3. There needs to be more — especially all of these ideas that we just had! Speaking of...

Yeah.

So speaking of ideas that we come up on the podcast...

Yes!

So I made a blog called on Tumblr called Accio Fic — so it's accio-fic.tumblr.com — where we'll post... pretty much we're gonna have to go back and listen to all of our shit. But find all of the prompts that we've come up with on the podcast, as well as random ones that just come into our brain otherwise, which is often. And you can submit your own, which is great. So it's just going to be like a multi-ship... you know, like, I mean, it's it's Care of Magical Shippers podcast, it's everything that we have and represent. It's just all... anything goes. So it's just going to have relatively regular prompt posts. And yeah, I'm really excited to see if and when things get made from it. Otherwise, yeah, they're there looking cool.

Yes, they are. And I should stipulate for our UK listeners. That is "Accio" Fic.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. I'm the Jim Dale person. So "Accio," is what I say, yeah.

Yeah, so "Accio" is what they say in the films. But again, I don't agree. I don't agree with that. But I do agree with it, because it's not "accelerate," you know. Anyway, so that so it's accio-fic.tumblr.com.

Yes, yes.

Yeah. Check out all those prompts. Because some of them, well, a lot of them, were mine. You... you heard me coming up with them. This is what my brain does. I come up with a prompt, but I have a too much ADD to actually sit down and write the full fics. So this is where you geniuses can come in and help me out. Because I just, I really, I'm craving that that fic validation. So, you know, if you, if you see an idea of mine, and you're like, "Yeah, it's not too bad. Might wanna write something," it will all be there. Megs has some brilliant ideas as well. You all have wonderful stuff that you post in the Discord that we're like, "Yeah, this is some real fire!" So I have no doubt that nice ideas will be appearing there at semi-regular intervals. And you should check that. Wow, this was really long.

And also as a side note —

Wouldn't be like me, would it? Another side note! Another one!

No. So literally today, I discovered that there is also another Harry Potter prompt blog called Accio Prompts.

Are you serious?

And I had no idea that existed, so whoever has that thing, like I'm sorry if it seems like I stole your idea, but I literally, I genuinely didn't know it was a thing. And I was like, because Accio Fic is something that I use in the Discord. So I was like, oh, that's like, yeah, I'm like calling for fics to be written. And then someone was like, "Oh, I sent in prompts." And I'm like, we don't have any messages. And they're like, "Oh, aren't you Accio Prompts?" Like, no, no, we're not. And I go and look, and I'm like, oh, my God, like, the like, the... it's just the same feel. An 18+ HP prompt thing.

Oh no!

But like, but it hasn't been active in over 70 days. So I'll give it... I'll give it that. I'll make some excuses. But there's dupes. There's dupes of tons of, you know, blogs. It's not like there can only be one, obviously.

Yeah, do you know what? There are also a lot of other Harry Potter podcasts.

Exactly. On one hand, sorry, but also you're welcome. Depending on the type of prompts you might get, you know, like, yeah, if it gets sent to Accio Prompts.

It's a definite... that should be our Discord welcome message right there: sorry, but also, you're welcome. You know, but also, while we're talking about links and things that you should do, please, please, please get in touch with us on Telegram. We are sure that you have lovely voices. And even if you think, "But my voice sounds like it's passing through a cheese grater," I want to hear from you. Like, I love — if, in case you hadn't noticed, we both love speaking. It's why we have a podcast together. We love talking Harry Potter — I would love to hear from you. I, you know, I would just love to have that instantaneous audience interaction. It would really brighten my day to have just a voice message from you. Or alternatively, you can travel to the cutting edge of the 1990s and leave us a voicemail on our Google Voice. In terms of social media, and how we'll be checking that, while you can still message us everywhere — and we encourage you to do it — if you want to message us and get a fairly quick response, please do it on Tumblr, because that's what we check most. And it's the easiest to manage. Maybe it's a symptom of, like, lockdowns or whatever, but... but that the necessity for human interaction has particularly piqued in me and I'm sure saved you if you want to talk about Harry Potter. Just come to our Telegram and we'll do that thing. There are other things available for you to do as well. For instance, if you want to email me a rage essay about how inarticulate I am, sent it out to CareofMagicalShippers@gmail.com. And be sure to mention my terrible synonyms skills at being unable to find another word for "absolutely" or "mmhmm."

I'm going into Word Hippo and making a list of other words that we can use. [Laughs] Well, what was I gonna say? Oh, speaking of lockdown, so...

Nice segue! You are totes profesh, totes profesh. Oh, I'm blown away.

As for our next episode, we're actually getting into our first, like, crack pairing.

Finally!

So you're gonna look at this and be like, "What the fuck is wrong with them? Like this makes no sense." Well, that's the point. You know, we're just gonna have fun with it and have nothing to go off of and it's gonna be great. So we're doing Minerva McGonagall/Gilderoy Lockhart. With McHart as like a ship name.

Yes.

What was the other one we played with? I can't remember.

LockGonagall?

Tart... What was it? Tart... TartanHeart?

Yeah, TartanHeart!

I don't know. Let us know what you think. I just, I... yeah, but anyway, so that is going to be so much fun. Very silly. So especially for those that didn't listen to this really dark pod, you know, pod episode, that one's gonna be very fun. So it's definitely gonna be playful and dumb. But I'm sure we'll still get into some fun kinky stuff because we're on a roll. So that's just —

Yeah, I mean, it's us. You wouldn't expect anything different from us by now, right? I mean, we're, we're, what, 14 episodes in at this point?

Yeah, I know.

13-14 episodes in?

Yeah.

I feel like we have established ourselves as very 18+ friendly. And for the listeners to expect anything else, especially after this, they're like, no, yeah, we've locked in. We, we are. We've chosen a path and we are setting it now. So with that in mind, come back next week to indulge us —

Well, next two weeks. We always say "next week" and we're sorry to disappoint you. It's always two weeks.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Next time.

We're... we release on a bi-weekly rotation every other Monday. So check back every other Monday for a new episode! Do that thing!

Okay, was that — was that our — was that our exit?

Well, we haven't we haven't said "bye." So we have to — we have to leave the listeners with something! Am I gonna have to go "land-ho" again? Please don't make me make "land-ho" a thing!

We still — and we still have no idea how to say goodbye to you guys. Like —

[Singing] Time to say goodbye! No, I can't sing.

What is that?

Have you never that song?

No!

Okay, listeners, please validate me. I need, I need to know other people have heard that song. I'm going to be making a Care of Magical Shippers playlist on Spotify. That song is going on the playlist. I need to know that I'm not being incredibly stupid with this. So what are some other songs that mention... Okay, so we're going to be signing off with N'SYNC today. [Singing] Bye bye bye!

Bye bye bye! [Laughs]

While you're waiting for the next episode, all the shipping fun can continue online. You can head over to all of our social media platforms like MagicalShipPod on Twitter and Instagram, and CareofMagicalShippers on Tumblr. You can get in touch with us by email at CareofMagical shippers@gmail.com, or you can leave us a voice message with all of your ship and fic thoughts and feels and have the chance to be featured on a future pod episode. We are also live on Patreon! Patrons have access to early episodes, bonus content, extended uncut episodes with all of our nonsense, ficlets written by me, exclusive merch, and a Patron Discord. Another easy way to show your love for the pod is by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. And thank you so much for listening!