Ep. 16: Is there a Doctor in the classroom? Exploring the experiences and contribution of teachers with doctoral credentials in post-primary education.

1:15PM Jul 13, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Eoin Ó Donnchadha

Keywords:

students

teaching

suppose

teachers

people

education

classroom

thought

uk

doctoral education

terms

knowledge

learning

economics

doctorate

ireland

subject

research

bit

important

Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.

Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Eoin Ó Donnchadha. Eoin is a teacher of history, economics and business who has taught in post primary context in both Ireland in England. He's also an occasional lecture in economics at the UCD School of Mechanical and materials engineering. Eoin holds a first class honours Bachelor of Business Studies honours degree from Dublin City University, a first class honours a master's in a PhD in history from University College, Dublin, a first class honours professional master in education from Trinity College Dublin, and a postgraduate certificate in education from the University of Buckingham. Eoin, and is also a fellow at the UK society for education and training and earned qualified teacher learning and skills professional status with them in 2018. In 2012, Eoin was awarded an Irish Research Council scholarship to facilitate his doctoral research in mediaeval Irish history. Earlier this year, he was presented with a JOHN O'CONNOR Award for Excellence in Business Studies teaching by the Business Studies teacher association of Ireland, you are very well educated Eoin, and and I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to talk to you about the contribution of doctoral education and post primary teaching. Welcome Eoin.

Thanks a million, I'm delighted to be here. Lovely way to spend, well, we won't say what day it is, but a lovely way to spend the day.

lovely way to spend a dreary day in Ireland. At least it's dreary, where I am. Eoin, please tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background and education and your professional experience.

Yeah, when I left school, I went and studied business studies in DCU. And then I developed an interest in history. So I went and studied history was privileged enough to be able to do that. And when I was doing a doctorate in mediaeval history, I had teaching experience in the UCD School of history. And that really kind of kindled a flame inside me, I really, really enjoyed that experience. And I wanted to get better at it. And so by the time I finished my doctoral research, I had decided to make the move into teaching as a career, and specifically post primary teaching. So I went over to England, where I was able to get a job teaching and without having prior teaching qualifications, and but where I could get them on the job. So I did that. And I am, I landed a job teaching economics and politics at A level in a school over there. And then I decided that I want to come home to this lovely Island, and our lovely economy. And yeah, so when I came back, I am I did a master's in education in Trinity. And I've been I've been teaching in the in the Irish sector since.

So while your PhD research was an Irish history, your professional masters post PhD focused on human capital contributions, and the impact of doctoral education on the professional operations of teachers in post primary schools in Ireland specifically. So what is it about this topic that interests you?

Yeah, it really stems from my interest in economics and education both so obviously, I love teaching and I really enjoy it. And I have this suppose I suppose the societally agreed notion that it is it is a public good, it's a merit good. It helps improve society. And in terms of economics, I'm thinking okay, so we accept human capital is a type of capital we can build people skill level through education, and that can contribute to I suppose society, to productivity in organisations, etc. So I thought, Okay, well, I'm coming at this from you know, less, I suppose. Not a very common background. Okay, so there's maybe there's less than 100 people teaching in post-primary schools in Ireland to have a doctoral education. So I thought, Okay, well, what might, how might I, I suppose explore the extent to which doctoral education does impact on things like productivity, the ability of one to teach in post primary education in Ireland. So, I looked at this from a theoretical perspective first, so looking at human capital theory, and, you know, this is, this has its origins, I suppose, in in, I mean, I think in practical terms, it has its origins, far, far back in time, but in terms of economic theory, it has its origins that, you know, you start with Smith, and the Wealth of Nations, so, he acknowledges this, and that, when you make an investment in yourself to become educated, and, and that can, I suppose, pay dividends for, you know, because it gives you access to, you know, more earning potential, and it contributes to the wealth of the nation, basically, to the economy. And this, this concept became developed within the neoclassical School of Economics, and you have people like Schultz, and basically, that their studies are all about measurement of human capital. So it's very much from the quantitative economics perspective, which is obviously that the mainstream in economics, and so you'd be looking at studies that would try and quantify human capital contributions by maybe looking at growth in GDP or earnings of individuals with certain qualifications. And what I, I suppose I'm less interested in the quantitative side, and more interested in the qualitative side. And what I noticed was that, okay, so human capital theory is closely associated with, with the neoclassical school of thought, and it's very much about that measurement. But yeah, there's evidence to say this. So john Maynard Keynes, that he recognised as one would expect education to have a positive impact on productivity. You can even see this in Marx. And so even though Marx seems to understand the impact on on productivity is happening through the average of worker skills, there's still an implicit acknowledgement that the state of the art discipline, and the worker skill level can impact and productivity even if it is through an average. And so this kind of suggests that even if there are problems with neoclassical human capital theory, fundamentally, all the theoretical perspectives are pointing to the possibility that education can have a positive impact on productivity. So that was my theoretical basis. So then I was like, Well, okay, that's all well, and good great, you know, we've we've established something that we all kind of know and accept. But what about this particular case? So I thought, Okay, well, look, how am I going to investigate this? So I, I decided I would take a qualitative approach. Now, that's quite rare in economics. But there's a professor from MIT, and MJ Piore. I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. Piore, maybe, but he hears use qualitative interviews to inform his analysis of things like labour markets. So I thought, Okay, well, this is, this is something that's possible, I could set up semi structured interviews with teachers who have doctors and investigate. And I suppose their perspective on how their doctoral education has contributed to their work and their ability to do their work, ie to productivity in the post primary sector in Ireland. And so that's what I went to did. And it was it was a preliminary study, it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be conclusive in this, you know, we can't extrapolate these results onto the whole population, fairly small sample, but the idea was to collect some primary data that would allow further discussion. I'm a big believer in that. In academia, by the way, I really believe that we should be doing preliminary investigations, and we should certainly be putting theories out. Because scholarly dialogue is important. And you do that through publication. You know, not all academics would agree, but that's something I believe in.

No, absolutely, I agree for sure. And because the other thing is, is when you get that preliminary preliminary data out there, and you know, it gives opportunity for others who maybe will pursue that further and delve deeper into it based on that preliminary data. So it's it is like you said, it's extremely important. I just wanted to clarify one thing. You said that in Ireland, there's less than less than 100. Is that what you said, People with doctorates that are teaching in primary or secondary or post primary education.

Yeah, I got this data from the teaching Council. They maintain a database with registered teachers under the post primary route. And I, off the top of my head, it was either 89 or 87. And back in November 2019, when they gave me that information, there was 87 89 people registered with at a doctorate under the post primary teaching. And so that's a proxy for this figure. I mean, the the exact figure might be slightly different, you might have some people who've entered the profession, since some who've retired, you might have a few who are on the further education roof, but are actually working in schools, you might have some people who haven't informed the teaching council of the doctors, there are all sorts of stuff like that, but I reckon it's a good proxy, and we're probably talking about just under 100.

Yeah, and I loved that you did take a little bit more of a qualitative approach, because I'm a firm believer that there's so much rich data that you can receive, you know, through the lived experience, you know, interviewing people on their lived experiences. And for someone that has had read, you know, your small scale research in this area for your, for your, your PME, it, there was just so much interesting information that came out of there, and there was so much rich data, and those, you know, you did have some, you know, quantitative data in there to really help validate, you know, as an economic, you know, as somebody who's an expert in economics would do, but it really made for rich reading, and I'm not generally one to love reading, like fully quantitative studies, it's just not my thing, I'm very much about the human experience. And, you know, quantitative, quantitative data doesn't often give you that human experience. So when I was able to, you know, read and critique, you know, your thesis, I was just blown away about how, with how warm and engaging, it really was considering, you know, that you did sort of a bit of a mixed methods kind of approach there. And, you know, it's probably one of the, it is the best, and one of the only ones that I've read that I'm like, you know, I would read again, and we'll, you know, read over and over again, because it just, it is it's engaging, and it's inviting, and the data is just so rich. And, and like you said, there's an important, you know, context there that it needs to get out. And it needs to be heard, you know, you need to make sure that you continue to disseminate the important information in there. So, I'll get off my soapbox now.

That's very high praise, indeed. Thank you very much. No, I fully agree. And that was one of the things about it, I didn't anticipate at the level of rich data that it would lead to really interesting. And, obviously, you know, within that, then drawing conclusions, it's very, I suppose it's, there's a methodology there, where, where I'm collecting individual people's rich descriptions and perceptions of, of, I suppose, what they're experienced. But it's it's not readily transferable on to a wider population bought some really interesting descriptions.

Yeah, and we're gonna get into those a little bit more, because I'm really interested in you putting out there, like what some of your participants had to say about their experiences, as you know, somebody that holds a PhD in teaching in, you know, second level education. And we will get to that here soon. But first, I, the other question that I have for you here is the PhD is often referred to as a terminal, this is still all about you. Okay. So, the PhD is often referred to as the terminal degree, because it's the highest attainable degree that somebody can get. But you sir, decided to go back to school after you did your PhD to do your professional Master's in education. What made you decide to do that? And and what was that experience, like as a somebody that holds the level of PhD back in a Master's programme with a lot of, you know, pre service teachers who, you know, very young, so you'd be considered more of a mature student?

Yeah, great question. And there's, there's not a single answer. There's a combination of things here. So one, you could argue by necessity, okay, which is never a great way to start going into education. I mean, I'm a big fan of education. But there's an element of necessity about the specific choice I made. So I had studied a for a postgraduate certificate in education in the UK before that, and the one I did was through the private sector, there's a different set up over there, and therefore didn't meet the national criteria for the public school system. And by public I mean, state run school system in the UK, and therefore it wasn't readily transferable when I came home. And that left me very little choice because I have a vocation to teach. And therefore, I that that made me choose to do the PME specifically I would have ever have come back and I would have Perhaps not in the first year, but it seems like a little bit of capital. And I probably would have gone back and done an M Ed or something similar anyway. And so, I suppose the PME gave me that opportunity to engage even deeper in, in theory, because I mean, well, it is a if I suppose, your your suppose your basic key into the profession now, you you can take from it whatever you bring into it, you know, so I went in having had research experience in the past, so I could Delve and put as much work into it as I wanted. And I found it very rewarding from that point of view. So, I learned a lot more about foundations and things that weren't covered on the UK course, because, well, the relative quality of the courses is possibly one thing, because this is a two year Master's, in Trinity, as opposed to the other thing was part time very much teaching on the learning on the job, and very valuable to but very different. And so I yeah, I suppose necessity is one thing. And but the other thing is that love of learning, and that opportunities, learn more by foundations, and specifically in an Irish context, where I wouldn't have had that from the UK.

Yeah, and you, you know, would definitely be, you know, an example of somebody who's passionate about lifelong learning for sure. Do you feel that you contributed that you were able to contribute to the learning of your fellow cohort?

Yeah, I suppose I did have it. Yeah. You know, made a good few friends, we thrash things together. And, and in the same way that we all share, like, I don't think it was anything very much, you know, because I'd done a doctorate or whatever. And, but I suppose I had a familiarity with with, I suppose academic requirements, which certainly I could pass on to other people.

You know, you've talked a little bit about working in the UK, and you did talk about some of the standards and how, you know, when you came back to Ireland, we know that, you know, the teaching Council has very strict standards about the qualifications that one must have, in order to be able to teach here in Ireland. Now that you've been teaching here in Ireland, and you've taught for some time, first of all, which, what age or grade levels, did you teach in both places? And what are some of the differences between teaching in the UK and teaching here in Ireland that you've experienced so far?

Yeah, great. And in terms of what age groups I've taught, so in the UK, I'm mainly taught senior level, so A level and AS level. So that be more or less your equivalent of fifth and sixth year here, senior cycle. And but I did have a couple of younger classes as well. And over here, I've had at first second, haven't had third, I think I've covered third a few times. And I've had fifth, I had sixth for resource hours, but not another class of my own, and in sixth over here. And but basically a widespread across both To be honest, and nothing that, you know, impedes a comparison, let's say. And in terms of my UK experience, then, I mean, I was I was two years over there. And, and I probably didn't have the most typical experience for Irish teachers to go over to the UK. And I've heard from colleagues I've worked with in Ireland to have a background in the UK as well. They were often in state schools that were underfunded. And, you know, there was a lot of violence and things in the schools as some really shocking things. And I didn't have that experience at all. I was in a private school and private boarding school, very privileged. environment. And yeah, both locals and international students, and coming in there. So you know, you can imagine the, the money probably involved and and, you know, just the privilege and the lack of deprivation when compared to underfunded state schools, you know, and so I think it might be entirely, you know, the comparisons, you know, they're there. They're in that context, but I think that big ones that I suppose transcend that would be the curriculum. And so, over here, obviously, we teach the Leaving Cert primarily, there's like one or two schools who teach IB, I think, and but it's essentially leaving service to government curriculum. And the government has an exam, the assessment. And in the UK at a level, there are different private exam boards. And basically, the curriculum, well the specifications to subject specifications are different for each the exam requirements are different. And so that's something I noticed, I do think this is only a personal comment, and I did quite like the a level curricula, and that I came across and I thought what they did very effectively, and because they have time, when you only study three or four subjects over there may be five, exceptional. And as opposed to here where you do a whole suite. And what I did like about that was that the quality of knowledge the students engaged What if and the range of higher order thinking skills that students engage with to the curriculum, I think are higher than what I've seen on the ground in terms of the Leaving Cert? And that's not to say the Leaving Cert useless? I don't believe it is. But I do think that there is a noticeably higher level and a level and I think it can be very valuable. And I, I don't think that it's even, I've I've often heard people say, Well, yeah, but you know, you're, you're sacrificing a broad education. For that depth, I think, you know, you can get a broad education, you know, the years preceding that. And I personally like that. So that's one thing I'll say about the UK system, compared to here, another one was class size. Now, this is probably to do with the context of the school I was in. But small class sizes. And I found that means, that means giving a detailed feedback, and much more fluid much, much easier, essentially. And I mean, one class, I was teaching three students, now the norm is about 12. You know, but that's quite different from the norm of, you know, 25 30. And so that that was facilitating kind of better formative feedback, much more in depth, form and feedback. But that also fits the nature of the work that the students have to do at A level, because they're to do you know, essays that were quite in depth that aren't too far off first year university in many cases, you know, over here, for example, in certain subjects. And so that's another thing class size, and but again, that's probably very specific to that private school context, in terms of people always asked me about paperwork. It was much more paperwork in the UK, yes, yes, there was. And it was pointless paperwork, it was nonsense, in my opinion. And that's a strong thing to say. But I really believe a lot of it seemed to me to be a management tool, and to get in the way, actually, in terms of teachers having time to do their actual job and add value to, to teaching to students. And so that was something I know, just there was a lot more reporting, and things like that, in fact, even reporting to parents, which, you know, obviously has a lot of utility. And even the the size of the reports, and the frequency of the reports were higher. And it made me wonder, and with my business background, to what extent is, is actually helping in terms of formative feedback to students and parents and communicating that because you know, you do that anyway, you give them give parents a shout, if there's something wrong, exactly. You'd have a chat. You know, it's in addition to that, and but I'd be spending my Saturdays and Sundays writing reports every few weeks, and, like, the whole day, and and you'd be wondering, okay, is this just so you can, when you go to a career fair to or not career fair, when you go to a recruitment fair to try and get international students to come over and board just say, Look at the detail feedback we get? Is it only marketing exercise, and I wonder how much, it might be just being cynical but. And posts of responsibility as well. I noticed that, again, it's only based on one school in the UK. But I noticed over here, in my experience, in all the schools I've been in over here, a few people would post responsibility actually do the work, and they actually are a major help to the rest of the teaching staff. They lighten the load for everyone else. What I found in the UK in the one school was it was kind of the opposite. It was like people were being given these at, I suppose you acquainting to middle management positions, where they bring in an initiative, it was almost like they're branding themselves for the next interview. And what that really did was give more work to teachers who were already, you know, busy doing work. You know? Yeah, you got you got the point. And so the conditions as well, was another issue. And over there, again, my particular experience and, you know, we often complain, and perhaps rightly so over here, that issues like, you know, payment and certainly I'd be in the camp of pay inequality is wrong. And however, you know, my experience in the UK was at pay and conditions for teachers were worse. And especially in the private sector and practice, that's the position I found myself in that the school would have been aware of, but at one point now wasn't working full time in school. Well, sorry, I wasn't contracted full time in school, I was working full time in the school, more or less. But like, at one point, they tried to give me an annual salary of about eight grand or something. You know, I it, and I should have been on their rates, it should have been about 17 18, which is still very low for the amount of work that went into it, you know. And so I do feel that a major difference as well. But I think that speaks to a wider economic problem over in the UK at the moment. And an interview is big, big difference as well. Over there. We go to do interviews, and you have to teach class, and it's very standard, whereas here, now you go and have Next for you have a chat with the panel and, you know, show off show show that you can do the job. And there, you'd have that, and you might have two or three different interviews in the day. And you would also teach class.

Wow. Yeah, that's, that's very a very extensive interview. And, you know, anybody who's, you know, job seeking and job hunting, in the field of education, or anywhere, when you get an interview, you're wanting to put your best foot forward, and you're really investigating the school, and you're finding out about their mission and vision statements, and, you know, their processes and things like that. And so that's, that's very time consuming, but then to add on that, you know, having to present up to a class, as well, as, you know, these, this, this full suite of interviews that you have to go through, it would just be exhausting. And especially if you're going up, you know, against whatever, 10, you know, 8 10 people or whatever, um, to know that there's that possibility, you've put all that work and investment in and you may not, you know, be number one candidate. There so

one instance I remember, and it wasn't my interview, but where I was working, and three candidates were brought in, they spent the day together. But obviously, they had to have their separate interviews and, and, you know, taught classes, and the atmosphere between them was not great, but it wouldn't be it's a horrible technique to use, I think, yeah,

yeah. I mean, it's competitive. And that's very interesting. I've never heard that before we bring the candidates together. And, you know, it's like the gladiator, you know, you throw them in the ring and see who comes out, punching,

Wouldn't be something I'd use, if I was in that position, you

NO, it's like very cutthroat. They're very interesting, really interesting things that you've just shared with us. Thank you. When you think about educators, or when people think about educators who hold a doctoral or a PhD degree, there's always that assumption that they're either going to, they're either going to be teaching at higher education, or they hold their, you know, they've done the PhD because they want to hold the higher administrate, stration position. Talk to us a little bit about the experience of your participants. And what were some of the positive and negative experiences of those doctorate holding teachers teaching in tertiary education?

Well, I suppose one thing says just about the methodology, so I ended up interviewing four people, which is obviously a small number of people. But again, the idea is not to sort of suggest that these four people are necessarily reflective of a wider population. And it's preliminary research to suggest areas for further investigation. But this happened during COVID, as well, which did limit the number of people. But all four did state that they believe that their PhD contributed to their performance as teachers in classrooms. So that's a really interesting, this was not statistic as you know, but it's an interesting piece of data to take from, and in terms of what they thought, and how they thought that their, their doctoral education contributed. There's various things here, I mean, problem solving came up. And, and in terms of that, you know, like one, one, one of the participants mentioned that they were quite good at problem solving there because of the doctors and because of the research they had to do, and things failing and having to go back and reevaluate things. And they thought that they could model that kind of level of patience, and those kinds of problem solving skills in the classroom when students were struggling to answer questions, or, or find an answer. And I think we're really good. I don't wanna give too much away on participants, but I think we're dealing with, you know, activities here that would require the students to solve problems, you know, so it's kind of training them into what mindset you would use. And also, though, that the same individual suggested that their problem solving abilities extended to them, when they were engaging in differentiation. So if they had a student who, you know, okay, this isn't working for that student, you know, they obviously, you know, you might have elements of UDL or something in your in your plans, but it's still not hitting, that particular student, the student needs extra help, okay, what are my strategies to use, and what actually apply even though their doctor is not an education, they will apply that I suppose their research skills into solving that problem and to investigating potential ways of differentiating act more effectively. And so that was that was an interesting way. It shows the transferable nature of things like research skills, and in terms of helping colleagues came up. And so yeah, basically using subject knowledge or experience, and I'm passing that on were one of the participants, and I was just specifically that, what they'd often do is if a colleague came to them and said, Look, I'm struggling with this new syllabus or this new update in terms of curriculum. And any advice can help me at all? Well, this person would, because they were in a position within their in their school and there was, you know, this is this person had the time and you know, the relationships in place to do this, but they will go and they will do some research. And they will actually, I suppose, break down at, you know, the cutting edge research and make it more digestible for you know, someone who didn't have the same research background, and then it would filter into classroom that regard through their, you know, through a colleague basic. And so I thought that was really interesting. I think it speaks to the value of relationships and positive relationships in school for that to be effective and fair play to the participant. And what else? I think subject knowledge is a huge one, it's certainly one that I feel very strongly about. But we have a great one I one of the individuals, and was saying this, yeah, they would use knowledge, actually, more than one of the individual said this, but if one particular example, and said that they would use subject knowledge from their doctoral research in the classroom, to create activities or to or to get across points to students, so might help them in answering questions students had, will help them illustrate points. And certainly, yeah, help them create activity. So one that was brought up was was quite relevant to like the Coronavirus Actually, it was it was it was when SARS was was around, I think is what when the person actually, you know, use this activity. And but they, they, they basically drew on an aspect of chemistry from their PhD. And I suppose, set the pupils a task about vaccine creation, that engaged with a piece of chemistry theory there they're looking at, you know, it's like, so if there's, oh, hey, chair, had we got this to interact with the virus to what, you know, I'm not a chemist, but you got the point. So that could be brought in and with proper scaffolding and context, yeah, kids can engage with that they're just applying their knowledge and the theory that it's been taught to them, but it's in a really engaging and, you know, really relevant way. So I thought that was really magic. And what else we got, we had less reliance on textbooks. And that certainly came up, and which we'll talk about later. And so that's really a lot of stuff in the classroom. And in terms of networking outside the school, that's in health they were all comfortable with. And I'm perhaps facilitated, like, you know, social capital and facilitated in reaching out to universities and other bodies, to get them involved in some sort of school activities. Okay, so a few examples of that, and where they just, they were able to reach out and have them come and give a talk or lend them equipment, in one case, that kind of thing. And in terms of helping with communicating with parents, it was reported this, there seem to be, I suppose, relatively more respect, they certainly didn't feel that they were experiencing some of the same problems that some of their colleagues might have experienced in communicating with parents. And it's a case of, you know, presumably, we're talking more respect there for the teacher because of the, the the doctoral title or the doctoral education, it's me, it would need to be further investigation. And, and then yeah, they mentioned that it helped them with their teacher training, and not so much with things like pedagogy and assessment, but very much with their ability to engage in academic tasks. So writing essays, etc, writing reports, those kinds of things. Okay, so there's some of the positives that came with but there were negatives as well negative experiences for from having from having a doctorate and working in post primary schools. And so some people thought it might be a barrier to effective relationships. And certainly, certainly I have thoughts anyway, that suggested, one person said, in one school they worked in where relationships weren't as favourable as the place they were in when I spoke to them. And someone said, they were a bit too big for their boots. And so there was that kind of perception that this was negative perception of colleagues, and that doesn't help in terms of positive working relationship and people helping each other. And another, another person said that some of their colleagues would come to them and ask for help. But in the same school, just other colleagues who might have professional rivalries, with with, you know, with the individual with with the doctor, wouldn't, wouldn't do that. And would there might be trouble or strained relationship as a result. So there seems to be an area for exploration there. And in terms of finding, finding a job as well, the idea that if you have a PhD, what are you doing teaching in the post Primary School came off and none of the people I spoke to were anything other than committed to Primary teaching. And so there seems to be this idea that it was a bit of a stopgap. So they'd be asked by people all the time, like, why are you? Like, why are you not doing something else? And and stopgap is the word that came up? And yeah, so that that seems to have been a problem related to that. There was a bit of a discussion about potentially impacting job acquisition. And so maybe being filtered out because of the Ph. D. Perhaps because of some prejudices like this, and whether they be granted in truth or not. And, and then there was also a perception, and I put this to the participants, because it's something I'd heard, and through my contacts, and but there was a perception that I'd heard that was floating around, and the people with doctorates, and were considered to be poor at explaining things because they found it difficult to simplify issues. And that is something that was refuted by my participants. So that's interesting to edit, as in the the concept there was refuted, and a few of them had heard, had heard the same, I suppose, misconception, let's call it, push,

I think sometimes that only tends to be more of a phenomena in higher education where, you know, the academics, but that's the difference between somebody who holds a PhD, and somebody who views themselves as an academic. And that's where that sort of above speak happens. I think more in higher education. But I think anybody with a PhD, as you were saying, has all these fabulous skills that they can be able to relate their experiences and distil them down into a way that, you know, their students can understand. But yeah, I've heard that as well. But I liked that it was that you've said it was refuted that that's, you know, really positive to hear.

I think you make a really good point there. And, you know, you wonder about, you know, not all academics are like that, either, but we definitely come across a lot more, you know, in that field. And you'd wonder to what extent are we dealing with professional protectionism? And, you know, thinking of Tolkien's, dragons sitting on their gold?

Exactly. What about, I don't know, if this came up, when you're talking about sort of benefits, you're talking about benefits, and positives and negatives? What about earnings? Does the does the earnings play any type of a role in them securing a position because they hold a higher, you know, this really, you know, a terminal degree.

So I didn't ask much about this. But I it is, came up in regards to pay inequality, and there's definitely a difference, definitely an attitude there. Were Yes, there's a pay inequality is unfair. And it's something I personally would believe as well. So um, yeah, it didn't affect all my participants either. But it affected so and because qualification allowances for doctorates aren't aren't paid to post 2011 entrance to the professional. So

as somebody who went through the PME, you know, that, that generally, these post these professional masters in education, two year programmes are often super high paced, and you're just going Boom, boom, boom, from one module in one piece of learning to another. And I'm just wondering if, you know, you feel that, that those who have a PhD, have a better understanding of that teacher, as continuous researcher, where that's one of the things as, as a teacher, educator, you know, where we are often wanting to instil within our professional master's students who are, you know, pre student teachers, to be thinking about themselves as teacher as researcher, go into your classroom and continue that idea, that concept of lifelong learning and that, you know, really continuing looking at your classroom, as, you know, a research opportunity and, you know, and how you can be a continuous researcher, but, but I think they only get that in small snippets from, you know, from one module to another, and it's not deeply instilled throughout the programme, but with a somebody who holds a PhD and knows and can appreciate that, you know, that that idea of continuous research, do you think that that that's definitely something that is beneficial?

Yeah, absolutely. And it can come across quite strongly and in the interviews, as well, so we had, you know, one of the participants saying that they, they applied their research skills, and not only to subject knowledge, books, things like differentiation. Another one was applying to pedagogical methods. And I think all of them brought in subject knowledge and research and getting the latest data in terms of their their field, and certainly those with subject specific PhDs, as in just you know what I mean, as in the curriculum, a PhD. Other curricular subjects, those individuals, and they illustrated basically yet the Yes, they did research and they kept up to date and might be with the entire curriculum, because it would be very, very onerous to do that all the time, but they definitely, yeah, they lived, what you're saying that the continuous researcher teacher, and they live that, and I think it's it must come from the PhD. That's certainly the impression I got off them. And it's, it's also something I feel myself.

And so what about you Eoin?, you know, now that you're, you know, teaching and post primary school? After completing this, this little, you know, this lovely little piece of research that you did? What do you what are your own experiences the resident doctor and classroom? Do you identify with your participants? Or are there places where you say, could be a little bit different from my own experience? Again, because you have a bit of more an international, you know, ideas as well. But what about you?

Yeah, and it very much matches surprisingly well is, it really does my experience matches my participants. And in terms of one thing I didn't mention about one of my participants, even suggested that the use of their PhD knowledge in the classroom actually helped to build relationships with students. So because the students be like, Alright, you actually, like you're an expert in this, like, you know, yeah, so that would actually build I presume, the mechanism would document as building confidence in, in the student and in the teacher. And so yeah, and I've, I've certainly seen how students would react differently. Now. It's not always positive. Sometimes I go to see a doctor what we didn't call him doctor, and then I missed it. But a lot of the time, like, especially if you're actually, you know, talking about the stuff that you you've researched background, and, and, yeah, I think that really does inspire confidence in the students. And in terms of subject knowledge, absolutely. I think it's really important, I think you can, you can definitely bring that into the classroom a few examples of, of how I've done that in the past. So one of the things that really annoys me about history as a post primary level is is misconceptions, historical misconceptions. And so, basically, quality of subject knowledge, really, that's disseminated through the training system, and it's nobody's fault. It's just, we all need to do better and contribute to try and improve. But one of the things that really get on my nerves is somebody did, you know, early Christian, early, early, mediaeval Ireland as their, their specialist area, is when people talk about Round Towers, like we have in montestaries like Glendalough, and they talk about them as places of refuge. And you know, if the Vikings are attacking, and especially if they talk about that being the function of, of the building, like why it was, why it was built, and there are Bell Towers, there, there their Irish name, in both early mediaeval Irish, and you know, if there isn't modern Irish signifies that it's cloigtheach. And, you know, bell house, essentially. So, I remember bringing this up with students now, the situation is that if they write if a student writes its place for place of refuge in an exam, they're gonna get the marks. And, you know, sometimes that's the expected answer in the exam. So you know, and so, you want to be careful, like, I have to, I have to be really careful about, okay, how do I kind of make my point get get this to be a useful learning exercise for students, but not disadvantaged? Or make things too complicated? So one thing I did was I, I sort of explained that, yes, you can, you can write that down. Because, you know, there is actually a historical example of someone who did seem to hide in the belltower when the monastery was attacked, just wasn't very successful, that, you know, they were burnt alive, and from the bottom from a fire and lit around around the tower. And so, well, yeah, basically, what I'd say is, to this was a class of first years as well, as I said, Imagine you are Glendolaugh. Does everyone know what Glendolaugh. Looks like most of them did not. So, okay, well, we'll paint a picture. Steve Valley here. Okay. There's, you know, presuming this trees up around the mountainsides, etc, obviously not 100% sure what it looked like back in the day. But you You live here, this is your home, you know, this landscape. Now, there's a group of Raiders coming in. Okay. What what are you going to do? We're going to run away. Okay, so where are you going to hide? Yeah, okay. We're not going to hide in the big tall tower in the middle of the settlement that's being attacked. We're going to go into the hills, right, we know and apart. So you know, you're allowing students to think through the problem.

It's not really a place of refuge like it, like the language dictates.

Absolutely. So It's you're getting them to think through the problem. And, you know, question the knowledge with, I suppose, logic, you know. And so that would be one way that I've, you know, let's say it's a very specific example. But one way that I, my subject knowledge from my doctorate would end up coming into the classroom. And there's other ways as well, you know. And so, even outside, I suppose when I say subject knowledge, we can talk about procedural knowledge as well here. So even though my, my doctorate in early mediaeval Irish history, I mean, I learned how to be historian and how to, you know, do the role of a historian. So it doesn't have to apply only when it comes to early Christian Ireland, I can, you know, teach how to think like a historian to students, I created an exercise where I had a bunch of primary sources for students that all have contradictory, contradictory data. So basically, I was basically talking about my own great grandfather, who was it was police officer, I put a picture up on the board and everything, and they're like, Oh, this is a real person, that's so interesting. And I was like, I have a problem. I can't figure out his birth here. It was a lie. But you know, and I said, here's all the sources, and they all have different dates for his birth year. So you're gonna have to help me figure it out. And I give them the context of the sources, you know, it's okay, so, so this is a baptismal record. This is his gravestone, you know, on all that, and, you know, I'd be using these examples to reinforce the basic idea that a primary source is, you know, from the time being studied, so if you've picked a question, your primary source from timing study, and the most reliable one is going to be the one that's closest to the finding study. So, you know, students would be prompted and supported through this exercise, but they would get there in the end, or at least some students would come up with it, and everyone would learn from that. That, oh, yes, the answer is, you know, 1848, because the baptismal record would have been made at the time of his baptism, whereas the grave wasn't made until much later in his life. So it's a much later source. So these kinds of illustrations that can really bring to life basic theory and basic definitions for students, and allow them to use higher order thinking processes to, to access that, I think that's something that, for me, anyways, the doctors, and helped me bring into the classroom,

and you're making it so real and alive, you know, with, with examples, that rather than just opening a textbook, and sort of, you know, let's read this, Pat, this, you know, where, you know, the history can get skewed at, like, you know, specifically me coming from, you know, the country that I was born and raised in where, you know, history can become very skewed, because it was, you know, very much textbook taught, and the textbooks were, you know, created and aligned with certain, you know, philosophies and, you know, that kind of thing. So there was a lot of really important historical information that was missing.

Absolutely. You know, that happens here, too, you know, I mean, we're still over reliant on textbooks. And there's moved away from, you know, fairplay to, you know, the academics and the teachers involved in that movement. And but on the ground, you know, still there's a heavy reliance on them. And the textbooks themselves, obviously, yeah, are a product of a particular outlook, you know, and that has raised to, you know, this country's history in the same way that, you know, the textbooks you grew up with, had, you know, links to your country's history and person. Yeah.

You know, the critic, the criticality that you give the students, because you've had that experience, you know, and that that ability to be critical, and to, like you said, question, you know, question, question, your resources, question, your sources, question where this is coming from, and, you know, and coming to a determination, you know, that most appropriately suits, you know, I just think that your example was fabulous, that's, you know, that's a great way to just really make it alive, and really important for students to help them to sort of not just get information fed in, but to actually take the time to critically analyse it them in their get their own level and at their own pace, and, you know, to come to a richer understanding,

absolutely. And, you know, this, this can come up in so many ways. And with history, it's very easy to go down the primary source route, you know, and the analysis of primary source route, but does our strand of the specification, which is a bad kind of knowledge, it's about procedural knowledge and interpretive knowledge. And, you know, another example here, when I was teaching Columbus, to just students know that the new specification is great, and this is, it is very critical of of that, that period of history, but, you know, you still have to teach them the basic narrative as well. I wanted, I wanted the students really live the experience of being on a ship. And, I mean, we've COVID we were very limited in terms of active learning methodology. So it's, you know, people were just sitting at their desks, you know, this there's nothing greater you can do there, but I think Thought I said, Okay, if I can bring in a primary source into this that might, you know, how am I supposed to be brilliant if I could act this out, basically, but you can't do it with the current restrictions, for obvious reasons. So brought in some extracts from the primary source, basically, that talks about Columbus's voyage. And I cleaned it up a bit, made it a bit more readable, user friendly for students, and got them to go through and answer questions about it and things like, you know, how might they have fared themselves? Well, they brought supplies, but they also went fishing, you know, so kids or kids are reading this, and they're gonna hang out there in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, and they're going for a swim, they're fishing. It's like, yep, yeah, they got off the ship, you know, like, they could just get off the ship and go for a swim. And the weather was alright, you know, we have this primary source, and the kids are like, Oh, this is so cool. And I'd also tell them, like, if I didn't know something, cuz I'm not a Columbus expert. So it's like, well, I don't know that, but like, we can read through other parts of the primary source and see if we can get an answer, you know. And so I do believe that like, again, focusing on on the methodology there, and illustrating that methodology, and giving students the skills to do that is important. And obviously, you know, it's not, it's not everything, but it definitely helps. And it definitely comes from doctoral research for me as an historian. And so yeah,

yeah. So, you know, we've talked so much about, you know, the different things about how important it is to continually research and, and you know, how important it is to, you know, always be thinking and questioning and that kind of thing. And I know that you've recently published a new article on the use of social media to disseminate post primary teaching resources, and high quality subject knowledge. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Yeah, sure. Well, this really feeds into what what I was just saying, actually, yeah, soapbox, you know. But yeah, and so the pieces is basically arguing this social media, and social media networks that are already in place and are developing, give us a real opportunity as a profession, to share knowledge within the profession. So I'm somebody with, obviously a doctorate in history, and that has given me a certain amount of expertise in certain areas. And by no means does that make me an expert in the whole course, absolutely not. But where I have that substantive expertise if you want, and where I have that, communicating with other professionals and other teachers, through social media, maybe social media networks that are already established through your, your subject and your subject associations, I think where you have some substantive expertise in subject matter. I think this gives us an opportunity to disseminate, disseminate created resources. So that's really what I'm arguing. And I'm very much arguing that there is a need for that in that article. So I go through elements of textbooks, not just history, but economics, Business Studies, as well. I highlight areas that could be improved, just based on my substantive expertise. Now, there's loads various no doubt, that could be improved on someone with a different set of expertise could identify. So if we do this all together as a profession, in the interest of improving what we teach, and we can collectively make a real difference to the quality of knowledge that's out there. And, you know, that can come into the classroom, it can be used, I suppose high quality subject knowledge can be used to develop higher order thinking skills very much in the way I demonstrated there with the baptismal record versus the grave record, you know, so you're applying procedural knowledge to figure this out. So you can have high quality resources that are making sure students who are just learning knowledge aren't or when they're just learning knowledge, they're not wasting their time learning nonsense, or stuff that's been, you know, proved wrong. But they're also being able, they're also better able to answer Well, why do we know them? How do we know that because we're actually dealing with, you know, established knowledge, and there is a how and a why for that. So you can bring that into the classroom as well.

And, you know, I think that there's something really important that you said there that, you know, really links to that spirit of collegiality, you know, when you're sharing, you know, your expertise. You know, not only does it promote this, that spirit of collegiality, but but when it's done, right, and it's done in a positive frame, like you're not pointing a finger saying to somebody saying, You don't know what you're talking about, this is what the truth, you're actually doing it in a very supportive, and, you know, way it can be so beneficial, you know, to not only that person, but but even even just the lay person coming in, you know, scrolling through the Twitter feed, or you know, that kind of thing and, and seeing that kind of that respectful dialogue that happens between experts and you know, in research and things like that, I think is really important. A reallyimportant point to make, because obviously, we, you know, think there are so many there's enough in society that's negative, and there's enough people in society that are, you know, negative and, and you know, things that happen that are just negative. So if there's a way in which, you know, through your learned knowledge can, you know, be supportive, and to others, you know, to other academics, to other researchers to other people with that type of knowledge in a positive mindset and a positive way, it can do so much and it can go so far.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it's all about relationships, and it's all about us working together, and trying to, I suppose, improve the system. You know, and I think that's a really important way of change from the ground up, you know, we are at the coalface We are, we are the teachers in the classrooms. And, you know, I also believe just, there's room for, you know, academia and teachers to communicate more in general. But, you know, [I'm] well placed as someone who's a bit of both to be able to make this kind of observation. But yeah, I definitely think, you know, we can bring bring that change by improving our practices together, we can certainly work together and try to achieve an improvement. But that's not to say that this idea, it's not to say it's without limitations, and without problems. It is, it does have problems. And, you know, there's there's issues around, I suppose, maybe expecting teachers to do that, in their spare time to solve, you know, the inadequacies of of a of a system, you know, especially when there's disputes like pay inequality, not to flog a dead horse, when things are going on. And so there's a few limitations like that.

So Eoin we are near the end of our conversation together, and it's really been, you know, enlightening, and I've learned so much from what you've had to say, do you have any parting words of wisdom or advice for our listeners?

Well, I'm nobody to give advice. But if you're looking for words of wisdom, there is a mediaeval Irish Maxim that's preserved in a late mediaeval tale. And it goes something like, ferrdi fis fiafraigid, basically means inquiry, improves knowledge, or as the better for knowledge is the better for inquiry. And I think that really speaks to everything we've spoken about today, the importance of carrying out research as a teacher, the importance of us looking at our own substantive expertise, and seeing how we can bring that into the classroom. And from, from the academics perspective, how can you get your research onto the ground, how you can put it into practice, you know, what networks we have with teachers to allow that to happen? And not just teachers, but obviously, I'm talking from that perspective. And so yeah, basically, I think if we, if we remember, this research is important for, for knowledge, and we bring that into the classroom. And we do that as teachers as well, we get the students start doing it. And we can get academics to start supporting, or start disseminating stuff in a way that we can access and use in the classroom. Brilliant, so we can all learn from from that statement, I think.

Thank you so much for spending this time with us today. You know, I like I said, I've learned so much and it's been such a pleasure to have you on.

It's been an absolute pleasure to be on. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts in education, and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.