riverside_colleen_weibel _ jun 12, 2025 001_radical_massage the

3:45PM Jun 12, 2025

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

massage therapy

flexibility

career benefits

client referrals

Chamber of Commerce

continuing education

New York State regulations

solo practice

business sustainability

client retention

practice growth

healthcare integration

insurance coverage

community networking

professional development

Hey, Colleen, I'm so happy to chat with you. I'm really glad that we got to connect. And thank you for your bravery, for just throwing your self out there and be like, hey, I want to be a guest on the podcast.

Sure. Thanks. Krista,

so one thing that I do like to ask being the radical massage therapist that you are, and some of the benefits that I like to share about being a massage therapist are that we get, like the freedom in our career, we get flexibility, we get some financial success, and then we can have some fun too. Or is there one of those that stand out most for you right now, where you are in your massage career,

flexibility would be the biggest I have a six and a half year old, so being able to go on school field trips and do things with her at school and do also do school pickup has been great to be able to do those things instead of, no, you work a nine to five. You can't be there until after five, like that kind of thing. So flexibility has been big.

Yeah, that's awesome. So you get to be a big part of your child's life while they're still young, and you're participating in school activities, and like you said, the pickup. So do you primarily have, like, a daytime schedule for your massage clients. Yeah,

generally, I work five days a week each Monday and Tuesday are different than the rest of the week, just because I don't really have too many people who prefer morning appointments for whatever reason. So everybody kind of prefers that early afternoon, and then, like later afternoon as everybody's getting out of work. So it's a little bit of a mixed bag, but it all works out. Yeah,

excellent, good. And like you said, flexibility things are can change as as they need to as well. So I know a little bit about you, know, based on your bio, plus a little bit of my own research, I really did want to come into this conversation, pretty cold, though, so I know a little bit. But can you give us what your massage journey start started out like and why you came to massage therapy.

So my story actually started in high school, back back in the stone ages of the 90s, they used to give us, uh, like an aptitude test for, hey, you're in grade 10. Here's what you might want to think about doing with the rest of your life. And so one of the things that I scored highest on was they call the quote, unquote helping careers. It's like nursing massage and massage therapy was actually listed. And I thought, what are these stupid tests? No, I whatever. It's fine. So went and did my undergrad. I have a bachelor's in political science. Worked for the New York State Legislature for a while, which for you would be the equivalent of an MPP, and then budget cuts came and they said, Well, we're not going to be able to pay you next year, so you might want to start looking for a job. Wonderful. So I applied to and was accepted at massage therapy school tracker within two weeks. And it was like, Okay, here's this flurry of paperwork and things to do in two weeks. You start school in two weeks. Ready go? So ended up going through school for me was the full time program at the school that I went to. So it was six months of 12 to 14 hour days toward the end of the year, and after that, I had to study for boards for six weeks and then take boards. And here we are, 15 years later,

amazing. So 15 years into your career, and you, you kind of had to, you know, choose another career path and come into massage therapy. Was there anything else that you were considering at the time?

Not really. It was one of those things where it was like, okay, where? And at the time, I did not, I was not partnered, I did not have a kid like, it was kind of one of those, what can I do but still have flexibility in my job and not have to be chained to a desk for 810, hours a day? So it was one of those where it was like, Okay, we'll give it a shot. School's only six months. Like, if I don't like it, I can try something else,

amazing. So did you think you were going to be in, like, government, legislation, like, forever, like, were you? Was were things good there? Or were you, like, already, kind of feeling a bit restless?

No, things were good. I enjoyed my job and the people that I worked with and my my boss. Yes, my the state senator, but it was just one of those things where I was realizing it wasn't going to be sustainable with having a family, which I was like, down the road, this is going to eventually happen, and I don't want to be trying to juggle maternity leave and small child while doing this job that's highly demanding. So it was a complete 180 in like stress level and time commitment and other like finite things, that you're okay. You're used to a boss telling you you have to be here this time, you have to do this, you have to do that, or else you're not going to get paid. Whereas now I'm the boss. Like, the running joke is that my boss is kind of mean sometimes, but she gets it done. Like,

yeah, she's, uh, she's strict, but, but yeah, she gets things, gets things done. Was that an easy transition for you to become your own boss and now be, like, accountable, like some people do need somebody to tell them what to do and where to go. And I find that massage therapists can have a hard time, because essentially, we are all self employed, and we all are responsible for our own business, even if we work within a bigger business. But some people find it really challenging to to to work for themselves. Was that an easy transition? Um,

for me, yeah, it wasn't anything that I was worried about my my father came from being a business owner as well, so having grown up through seeing all that and all the hard work that he put in with stuff too. It just was kind of modeled for me from a young age of, okay, if you want it to work, you have to put in the work so not slacking on doing the laundry and paying the bills and all the other hats that we wear, instead of just at the table with all of our patients. So,

yeah, yeah, there's a lot of behind the scenes. Of course, one thing that I found that I actually enjoyed the behind the scenes almost as much as the hands on. And I was good on some ways, because I could get that stuff done. But then I was like, wait, I'm not getting paid to like, sit down and, like, do my laundry or to work out my accounting. Even though I do enjoy it, it's like it was this whole new thing where, like, Well, I'm not getting paid for this part. Share with everybody where, where you are practicing right now.

I'm in central New York State, which is not Poughkeepsie, where I'm in between Syracuse and Binghamton is usually the easiest way to describe it, because nobody has heard of Locke. It's tiny.

Yeah, and, and what type of practice do you have now?

Generally, a little bit of everything. I see pregnant moms. I see folks who have had joint replacements, it's a little bit of everything. So it's not anything that's super specialized.

So it's a smaller community. Obviously it sounds like and how, what's the reception there to massage therapy? And what does that? What does that journey look like for you now 15 years in practice. Was it an easy build? People just gravitated towards massage, or was it a slow build?

I think it took a minute for people to kind of realize that I was in town, and the fact that I'm a local, like I grew up around here. So the name recognition has helped a lot as well. Instead of people going because some, you know, some people are like, I don't know this person, like, do I want them to work on me? So having the name recognition has been helpful. But I also have a chiropractor that's in town that she finished school roughly about the same time that I finished massage therapy school. So we've kind of been training patients back and forth for 15 years.

Yeah, excellent. I love that collaboration. And when you get to work with allied healthcare professionals, I think that it is one of the strongest and fastest ways that we can build our clientele based on those referrals. And even if it's just you being that referral source in the beginning, it helps to build that trust. Like the chiropractor keeps getting sent, you know, referrals from you, and they're like, Who is this Colleen girl? I mean, obviously you knew each other beforehand, but I find that it, it really does work. And then they're like, Oh, okay. Like they know what they're talking about, because they're sending their client to me and kind of giving them this little bit of information about what then I why they're coming to me so that they start to trust you more as a healthcare professional, and that you actually know what's what's going on. So I find that that is one of the strongest ways to, yeah, to build that referral network. Good for

you. And the other thing that was helpful was I. Physically went to her office, introduced myself, and said, hey, when do you want to come in for a session? So you know what you're sending your your patients to,

yeah, yeah. I love that point as well. And I would encourage everybody to try and do that. Yeah, if you can, it makes, it makes a big difference. I used I did some networking back when I first started, and they called it like a dance card, just for their networking speak, but like, it was, like, you go to their place of business, like so, and if you can be a physical client, then then that's even better, because then you know what that experience is, and how, how it all operates, and who you're referring them to. So wonderful. Did she take you up on the offer to get on your table? Yeah, of course. Yeah, amazing. And everybody's a little bit different. Did you get any like, were there any other approaches that you did there to to offer those services to other professionals in the in the area, and they declined it? Or

we're a pretty small town, so it was mainly just her. We do have a couple hair stylists that are in town who were on and off over the years, and that's pretty much it. We don't really have physio or anybody in town that we can refer out that way. So, okay, it's usually a, oh, I'm going to, I'm going for my shoulder after I have, after I have the surgery. Okay, well, where are you going? So I kind of know who's around, but they're, I'll say, bigger clinics, and they don't probably necessarily want to have a referral out in the boonies. Sure,

yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe not always good to know. Like, yeah, what else? What else is out there? Of course, one of the ways that I feel you probably also stay in touch with your community and build your business, is one of the reasons why we had to originally reschedule this call, was to because you're part of the Chamber of Commerce. Yeah. And can you? Can you for people that might not know what that is and what the role is that you would play in that? Can you give some some background?

So Chamber of Commerce is just a big networking organization of business owners, so I'm part of our local, teeny, tiny Area Chamber of Commerce. And then we also have a County Chamber of Commerce, so they hold events monthly, or they have yearly awards dinners and like, receptions and stuff. So it just gets your name out there, get you to meet other business owners and see what they're up to, and kind of troubleshoot things every once in a while, of, oh, well, we've had a downturn in traffic. How have you? How has your business been? And well, this construction is hindering everything and back and forth. So it's just nice to talk to other business owners and be able to kind of talk shop, even if they're not in the same industry you are, yeah, for

sure. And sometimes you can learn a lot, especially because they're not in our industry. You can really pull some some new ideas and, like you said, troubleshoot from areas that you might never have considered before. So that's really awesome. Yeah, a lot of a lot of people should get involved with their Chamber of Commerce. I know Emily McKay, who has been on this podcast a couple times, is a big advocate for for that as well, based on what you know, like, you're practicing in the State of New York, I'm in Ontario Canada. Is there anything in particular that you wanted. One of the ideas that you had there, I really liked was like, maybe talking about how massage therapy might compare between like the US and Canada, or just even state to state is very different. Same thing here. Some of the provinces are regulated and some are not. Yeah, is there anything that you're super curious about that you want to you want to

start off? I mean, so being in New York State, we are one of the, I'll say, highly schooled states. New York State requires 1000 hour schooling programs, so we're one of the highest in the nation. I know, I'm pretty sure in Ontario, you guys require way more than that.

Yeah, so in Ontario, I mean, it's been 19 years since I've been in school, and I was like, I think it's 2200 hours. And it is, for us, it was a total of an 18 month program, like, if you are doing a fast track program, was 18 months. I know that you said it was six months, but your days sounded longer than mine. I think we were maybe a six hour day ish, and then maybe student clinic as well in the evenings or on a Saturday. So it. Total of 2200 hours on top of that. And I'm sure you had, we had some like outreaches, so we would go into the local community, maybe work with different sports teams or certain events for like that community hands on, giving out free massages, you know, at race weekends and things like that. Did you have something like that as well?

We had, we called it part of our outbound clinic. So we go, we had different rotations that we could sign up for. And so one of them was an assisted living facility that was down the road. One of them was a dementia care facility. There was a yes, what else there was the spa. So one of the women who graduated from the same massage therapy school that I went to started a spa, and so she would have some of the kids do their clinic rotations at the spa. So there were five or six different options that we could kind of rank and choose from so you could pick, I want to do this one. I definitely don't want to do that one. And so they would kind of Chuck all our names in a hat and go, Okay, well, we can only have six for this spot. So we'll send you six, and then everybody else will go to their maybe their second or third choice. But yeah, it was definitely, it was nice to be able to work on people, but still be supervised, instead of just like, chucked in and gone. Okay, here you go. And then you're kind of like, what do I do?

Yeah, yeah. It was really helpful in those communities, because obviously you might, like, you said, you have a supervisor, so you'd always be able to, like, go back to them and be like, Okay, this is what's going on. Like, do you have any recommendations for what I can do or review, like, what you did, and would you make any changes? Would you do anything differently? So that's really helpful. Did you have to shadow, I think they took this away during COVID For requirements. But did you have to shadow a massage therapist at all? No, no, they, they

did require you to physically get a massage yourself before applying to

school. Okay, okay, not, not a bad thing. Yeah, that's you

gotta, gotta know what you're getting into. Like, yeah, yeah,

very good. And, and, did you feel like you knew what you were getting into

for the most part? Yeah, it wasn't really anything that was too shocking. I'll say because it was, yeah, the bodies are bodies. We all have one that it doesn't really bother me. Yeah,

was there any particular area that you feel you were strongest in, in school, or, like,

not. I mean, it was all a giant learning experience. And I think it all just went so fast that it wasn't really like there. It was almost like there was no room for error. Sure it was like, Okay, you need to practice this. You need to know all this stuff. Like, I remember the first week of school, we all showed up and we're like, okay, like, we're probably just gonna be like, given all the basics and not really do too much actual hands on work, nope. First day of school. Okay, guys, here are the here's how you set up the tables. Pick a partner. We're all looking at each other like, I just met you people. What's going on? Yeah, Yeah, same. I

mean, it wasn't that wasn't necessarily the first day. Was just the way that our courses were scheduled. But it wasn't the first day. But it was the first week that, yeah, essentially, the massage, you know, instructor came in. He was like, All right, well, I need to see where we're start, what we're starting with. So like, let's go, let's get everybody on the table, and you can start massaging. Because, yeah, I was like, yeah, what, what are we starting with here? Like, what do I have to work with and where, what do I need to improve on? So, no, that's, that's really great. Did you feel like a lot of the people in your program, they were actively interested in massage, or was it kind of just like somewhere from some of them, was it a fallback? You know, they're kind of like, I sounded like, okay, and I kind of thought I'd try it.

Yeah, I think it was a mix of a lot of things we had the whole age range, from kids who had just finished high school to women who were old enough to be my mom, like grandmas who were kind of, well, I'm thinking about retiring soon, but not quite retiring completely. And I figured this would be something that I could do, like on my own schedule, kind of thing. So it was, it was a good mix of age range and life experience. And some people were kind of Nope. This is what I'm going to do. Here's this is it like? I'm not deviating from that, but I think there were, I. 60 or so kids in my class, wow. And I don't know that there's 10 or 15 of us that are still full time practicing. So yeah,

yeah, I'd say that's a pretty fair like, that's a large class to start off with, for sure, which is great to see that the interest was there, um, and our, because ours was more of like, it's not, it was like a private, like business, like that condensed program, you know. So it was, I think there was maybe, like 20 some, maybe 25 that, like started, and then by the time we finished, it might have been like 12 that left the program? Um, yeah. Now there's only, like, a hand handful of us that are still practicing. So it's pretty, pretty standard. It's pretty interesting to see, like, what, what the outcome is, especially because some people get into the program not fully understanding the degree of the like, the education that's involved, and then the hands on part they may learn. Like, they just that's not for them. There was constantly reviewed. You have to keep up a certain grade, of course. So if they you know, and like you said, you mentioned that things like, moved really fast, and I completely agree, like, because it was a condensed program, if you missed you, like, there were no holiday, like, you couldn't take a holiday unless it was planned in the curriculum, because you miss like one day, it's like, missing like a week, basically

agreed, yeah, it was, I think I only missed maybe two days, and I still, to this day, I can tell you what days they were that I met,

because you're Like, I did not get this. I didn't remember this lesson on the test when you when you like, get the the question, you're like, I don't remember this. Yeah.

And the nice thing about my school was they did have DVDs that you could check out of. Okay, well, you missed this demonstration today. Here, just go watch the CBD, and then you can kind of go over it with your instructor during a clinic or at a later date or whatever. And so I kept looking for that one DVD, and somebody had borrowed it and never brought it back. So it was like,

Yeah, you'll never know what was taught on that day. Colleen, oh, it's gonna be a mystery,

but amazing. And then in the 15 years since you've been in practice, what, what are some of the changes you've seen, maybe positive or negative, in the quality of the massage therapist coming out of school, or the types of practices that are operating, I know use, you know, you're in a small place, and you sounds like you're doing incredibly well for being in such a small community. And it doesn't sound like there's any like, I see there's no competition, but you know, it doesn't sound like you have competing massage therapists where you are. But how have you seen things change over the 15 years?

Well, it's, I think it's been more kind of everybody wants to niche down and do only one or two specific things, whereas I think when I went through school, it was more of a try a little bit of everything. See what you like, you'll eventually land on something that you like, and then you can kind of go from there. So it's also, I think, easier for me to be, I'll say, a general massage therapist, because there aren't that many of us so trying to pick and choose in like a giant metro area is a little easier than, okay, I've got two options, and I didn't like option one, so let's see what option two like. It's different. But I mean, I'm the longest practicing massage therapist in my area. There are two other women who also practice in in the next town over, which is a whole five miles. Like, okay, super far. Um, but we're all busy, and I think it's just everybody's comfortable with their person, which I'm fine with. And if you want to go see somebody else, that's great. As long as you're getting the care that you need. It doesn't matter to me who you see like if you come see me for a while and then your schedule changes and then doesn't jive with mine anymore, go see somebody else who either works earlier or works later or whatever. As long as you're getting care that you're happy with, that's really all that matters.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. And would you say that some massage therapists that you've, you know, encountered in your career, get a little bit too possessive or clingy, or they have that sort of lack mentality that. Like, I'm not gonna even mention this other massage therapist up the street, because you might go and see them, because then they might be better than me. And have you seen some of that competitiveness?

I mean, in generally, coming out of school, I think that's kind of everybody's blinder. Like, I need to keep all of these people, they're all mine. Like, they shouldn't be going anywhere. People are, people are gonna people like, you can't really prevent them from doing certain things or seeing anybody else. Like, it's just, it's one of those things where I'm super grateful for all of my regulars that I have. I just counted the other day. I think I have 40 people that are in on a regular basis. And then it just kind of is a sprinkling in between of, oh, we went on a cross country road trip and I'm dying now, or, Oh, I had that hip surgery and now I'm back, like everybody just kind of shuffles through so I'm happy with what I have.

Yeah, I love how you mentioned that you got your 40 regulars. I would probably agree that I am between 40 and 50 regulars, and I only know that because there's, like, just an email that I send out when I my club, my schedules like opening, and that's about, those are about the amount of emails that are on that particular list. And I, I really, I really appreciate you saying that, because so many massage therapists, I feel also think that it has to be in like, the hundreds or the 1000s that you need these, these so many regular clients to keep your business operating. But if those 40 or 50, like clients are coming to you for massage on a regular basis, how many appointments are you seeing, like a week?

And you know, it's cyclical, so it just kind of depends on the week. It can be anywhere from 10 to 15 or 18. It just kind of depends on what booking cycle everybody's in, what time of the year it is like, I'm always surprised when I go through at the end of the year to do all my bookkeeping and like tally all the numbers side by side to see which months are the busiest. People would think like, oh, December, everybody's using their gift certificates that they forgot about. Or January, because they're using all the gift certificates that they just got. My busy months are usually like, May, June, July. I think it's just because the weather's better. Everybody's out and around. It's sunny. We're all doing gardening and hiking and out doing physical activity, so our bodies are just in need of a little bit of help, recovery sometimes, yeah,

I think all those factors do do make sense on why you might be busier during that time of the year? And that's interesting, that nothing, nothing is predictable. And I mean every area of the state might be different as well, or, I mean every part of the world might be different for when, when things are busier. But I agree with you, I think like December, we always think like it's gonna go crazy. But for me, I don't allow it to get out of hand, because I've, like, I've educated my regulars to book those appointments early. So I'm not you know, and I'm also not overextending myself like me I did in the beginning, but not anymore. So I still only have you know, like you said that up to 18 appointments a week. It's still not completely out of my range to you know, I'm not overextending myself,

definitely. And it's gotten better, I'll say, over the years, whereas when I first started, it would be okay, how many people can I work on it in a day? Like that's we're aiming for, that just fully booked all the time working. And then I was like, wait a minute, this isn't super sustainable. And then I got pregnant, and then working while pregnant was a different thing, because you're growing a human and trying to work, and your body's changing. And it was like, Ha. So I was like, well, that number has changed, and then this is now down to three, maybe four. And so it's kind of changed over the years, but everybody knows when I take vacation, certain days that are off every year, like my schedule is super predictable in that way. So everybody knows. Here's what's going on, here's when you need to book around. And I'm not gonna come in early or stay late for people, because your schedule doesn't work with mine, right?

Yeah, and you're like, your practice is called New Leaf massage. Therapy, I'm always curious about how people come up with their their business name.

So my now husband, and I were on a road trip to head to his family reunion, and we were trying to figure out names for my practice, because I had just finished school, and I said, solid, we have a road trip long time, we got things we can talk about. Figure out what I want to name my practice. We chucked around all kinds of different stuff, and then it was, well, wait a minute. Don't we want people to feel better when they walk out the door? Don't we want all of our patients to at least have some sort of like, sigh and like, Okay, I do feel better. Things are changing in a good way. Like it's, it's turning over New Leaf as you're heading out on your own. So I mean, not that there's this, like profound, like awakening every time you walk in my office or out of my office, but at least, I hope my patients are feeling better than better when they walked out versus when they walked in.

Yeah, that's always, that's always the goal. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Like, I mean, our practice is called a line. We're not gonna say that. You're gonna have your whole life sorted out in one massage, but hopefully feel a little bit better. So you had that right from the get go and and what does your practice look like right now? Like, is it just you? Do you work? Do you work in like, is New Leaf, like, a larger business? Or, like, how does that work?

Nope, so it's just me, just little old me, no, no other therapists. It's just me in my office in downtown, right on the right on the main State Route. So it gets lots of foot traffic and vehicle traffic by, and people still after me being in this location for over four years, people still do not realize that I'm there. But I also don't do a boatload of advertising because I'm booked so and it's and I'm also, at this point, only by referral, because I am so booked. So my patients know that they can send me, their sister, their uncle, their aunt, their parents, their kids, like the coworkers, you can send in whoever you want, but they need to name drop when they call to book the appointment because they're not getting in otherwise,

love that name you have to name drop before you Before you can break and book an appointment, that's great. And so, because you're, you know, it's not a goal for everybody, but you know, because, like you're describing, you are solo practitioner. You're booked out your referral only. You do have a space? Have you considered bringing on another massage therapist? Nope. And what's the, what's that? What's the reason for you for that? I thought that some straight up, no. So

it's just one of those things where, if I tell you this is how it's done, and then it's not done that way. Like, that's a I don't want to have to micromanage somebody and tell them that you should be doing it this way instead of that, like, don't be cutting corners and that kind of thing. So it's just easier for me to not have that headspace taken up by Oh, I wonder if my employee Did this today or, Oh, I wonder if they did the thing that I asked them to do two days ago. Like, it's just easier to be by myself exactly like I left it when I walked out. So when I walk in the next day and go, uh, I know it's my fault. Like, yeah,

yeah, that's definitely, like, when you do have that, that situation where you're sharing space with another massage therapist, yeah? Like, there are better roommates than others, of course. And so, yeah, it's, and that's an argument that I do hear a lot from other massage therapists who like their solo practice and their space that I walk in and my oil is exactly where I left it. And if, like you said, if something's out of place, I forgot to stock my own sheets. Oh, that's okay. Like, it was me, that kind of thing. I know it's really important to, like, yeah, no, know the reasons why, and not just jump into it because you think you're supposed to, or you you know you need that financial gain or anything like that. So that's really important. I love that. Like, you know that about yourself, is it caught? Is it more common to be employed as a massage therapist, then, as you sort of described, or are a lot of people independently contracted. Is there a mix? I

think it's a solid mix of like people that are in private practice, either in their home or like in an office kind of situation, and or people who work at a spa? Or anything like that. That's more of a, I'll say larger outfit, because it's we do. I live kind of in between a couple different bigger, I'll say cities that have, uh, colleges and so they have spas or bigger therapy offices with multiple therapists. And so it's easier for people, I think, to go there and walk in and go, hey, when I I'd like a massage now, kind of thing, yeah, whereas me,

yeah, next year, yeah. Like,

how does live? So people are always kind of Oh, because I'll post, like, last minute openings on social media, and then I'll post every Sunday the openings that I have for the week, because some of my patients don't have set schedules, like they they're either shift workers or they have kids who are also involved in sports and everything this time of year, so it doesn't work for them to book an appointment out. So I'll post my weekly openings, and so I get a lot of those filled because people will follow me and wait, and they literally wait for that post on Sunday. Of like, I wonder if I can get in this week, nothing. And so having that, like, 435 o'clock appointment is like the sweet spot that everybody wants. Okay, it's usually, like a six week wait for that appointment. If it's not, like, if you're not in regularly and you don't book that appointment, it's a slim chance that you're going to be able to get in and get an appointment at that time.

And then what do, I guess, like, the more blunt question is like, where's the money coming from for people to book massages? Is it? Is it covered under insurance? Or do you find that people are paying out of pocket? Do they just recognize the importance of it for their their health?

Yeah, I think, I think most people do recognize that it is a great piece in their healthcare toolbox, because Western medicine hasn't necessarily been wonderful about extolling the virtues of massage therapy because Western medicine, they'd rather just chuck pills at it. So most of my patients do pay out of pocket. Some of them do then get reimbursed by their insurance companies. It's yeah, most everybody pays out of pocket. I don't take insurance. So, right? I always tell people, you're you are more likely to get reimbursed through your insurance company than I am ever to get any sort of payment. That's more than 20 bucks, sure. So yeah,

yeah. For us, I feel like in at least on Ontario, we're very fortunate that as a registered massage therapist, it is recognized and many insurance like company insurance plans cover registered massage therapy. It might be $200 it could be 1000s of dollars. It just depends on the insurance company. But I feel that we are in a fortunate position that that and again, being now in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, even there, like because we're such a big government town, and a lot of companies kind of thrive here, that that that's kind of where the majority of our our clients do come from is that they're using insurance benefits. They do recognize the health benefits, but where we get stuck is that we drop the ball in educating like the continued benefits of massage, even after your insurance runs out. And the our rate for one hour. Here is 135 Canadian. Are you comfortable sharing what your rate is? For comparison,

I charge 100 American. So good for you. Yeah, comparable,

yeah, exchange rate, yeah. So no that. I think that that's great. So people do recognize that, you know, $100 I'm guessing, maybe once a month, every six weeks, for your clients to come in on a regular basis. Yeah, usually

it's everybody's about every four weeks. So monthly, I do have a couple people who are six weeks, and then some people who do three, just because people will come in for their first appointment feel great afterwards and say, Okay, well, when, when should I rebook for? It's a loaded question, because everybody's body is different. Everybody does different things throughout the day. We all sleep in different positions. Some people sit more than others. Some people stand like there are so many factors that are involved in how often you should come in. I tell people, try four weeks. Your body will tell you when it's when it's time. So some people will do four and come in and then I'll check with them and say, Hey, how we feeling about four? Do you want to stick with four? Do we want to shorten it? Do we want to length like always checking in with people when they're in for their first couple sessions, to say, hey, I want to make this beneficial for you, not just come in for an hour and be here every month, just because I told you to Sure.

Yeah. No, absolutely, yeah. I take a very similar approach when they do ask how often they should come in, I say the majority of people come monthly. But listen to your body and like exact, you know, the exact same your body's going to tell you, if you need it sooner or later, then we will make, yeah, those adjustments, it's all good. You have also worked abroad. Well, I lived abroad. Lived abroad, okay, what was that experience like? And where did you live?

So I was an exchange student through Rotary International right after high school, and I lived in Hungary, and so I was there for about a year. Got even more confused about what I should do after high school, like between high school and university. So it's like, oh no, but it was amazing. It was I left knowing knowing two words, thank you and bathroom and Hungarian, and I came home knowing a good chunk and could definitely carry on a conversation and not really have a problem getting around. And then I went back for another semester during undergrad, back to Hungary, and so I was one of the only international students who could actually speak Hungarian. So I got to go around and do a lot of translating for, yeah, the other Americans and kiwis and Aussies who were there but couldn't necessarily speak the language that well,

okay, now that's awesome. I always like, hear about these programs, and you just, I don't feel like I know anybody that gets had to actively participate in them. I mean, I just read, like, green lights by Matthew McConaughey, and he, he did a rotary exchange program. I think it was Australia, yeah. I was like, This sounds like, okay, like, it does exist. But also, it's Matthew McConaughey. So I was like, but, like, do real people like, do it too. And yeah, they do. That's awesome well,

and I think it's just, it's a it's a good way for folks to see how other people live in other countries, because I think a lot of it is not knowing. And so it's just one of those like, why would you want to do that kind of things? Like, what? Why would you want to leave everything you've known for your entire 1718, years of life and go live in a foreign country where you don't necessarily speak the same language? And how are you going to do it? You just do it like, and it's the one time when it's easiest. You don't have a ton of bills, you don't have a partner, you don't have kids. Like, do it? Go, enjoy it. It was amazing. I and I still talk to my families and some of my classmates that were in Hungary So, and I still talk to some of the other kids who were exchange students with me as well. So it's nice to hear we're all relatively well adjusted, and the kids are growing up, and people are getting married and everything. So it's just nice to hear how everybody's doing.

And I think that's great. Did it do you feel like it shaped, I mean, you already had, like, the business awareness, because you're, you know, your father owned his own company. But like, do you feel like that spontaneity or that willingness to, like, just take a risk? Like, no, I don't know the language or where I'm going, but I'm going to try it anyway. Do you feel like that shaped any of your your massage practice?

I think it lent itself to just realizing everybody's human, and everybody makes mistakes, and everybody has difficulties and triumphs, and it's just, it's like the human experience of we all need to kind of give each other a little bit more grace, instead of being so hard on ourselves and on others. So,

yeah, no, that is, is very true. All right, so what does. Your continuing education look like.

So it's different. So New York State requires 36 hours every three years, and my national accreditation requires 36 hours every two okay, so And New York State is finicky about the different types of classes that we take like they have to be New York State approved a lot of a lot of continuing education classes are just kind of out there, and you can take them, and it's all well and good, and you get a certificate at the end, but New York requires that you have the extra that it's been through the hoops with the education department that, yes, this is A legitimate class. Yes, you did, hopefully learn something, and yes, we will give you credit for this. So it's just an extra check box that I need to take care of when I'm looking at doing continuing education classes.

Yeah. And obviously the person presenting that course kind of has to do, do their due diligence as well, and then kind of market it as, like, this is a New York State approved, like, like, accredited, course, and so that's to their advantage as well. But yeah, just more more hoops. So basically, in like three Well, every three years, you've got to complete like 72 hours of continuing education. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's extensive, for sure. What are some of the, what are some of the benefits that you found have come out of that continuing education, as far as like skills that you've learned? I don't feel anything gets wasted, but, but what, what do you feel has been some of the best that's come out of that kind of mandate.

I mean, some of it has been beneficial in that I will take certain classes just because I know, okay, I have a bunch of people who run either recreationally or they do half marathons consistently throughout the year, why don't I go take a massage for runners class? So I did that. I've done advanced pregnancy classes, because a lot of, I shouldn't say, a lot of a couple of my patients have started seeing me and then gotten pregnant, seeing me all through their pregnancy, and they're still seeing me postpartum. So that's been helpful to kind of keep people coming in and not having to refer out, trying to think of some of the other ones I've done. It's the list is

extensive. Like, Oh, absolutely, after 15 years, you know, like, yeah, you've done you've probably had to go through a lot of different different trainings.

And it's not necessarily like anything that's super crazy. It's like, some of mine have been A and P classes. So it's not necessarily always hands on. I'm in a classroom doing something. I can just be sitting in a classroom refreshing A and P, or kinesiology or other things that you think about on the regular, but not necessarily as in depth as they do in the continuing ed course. So you go in and take the continuing ed course and go, Hmm, I should be thinking about this more like and I wish, I wish. I don't know if this is the same for you or not, I wish somebody somewhere would do a continuing education class for massage therapists about skin cancer. Ah, okay, because it's not necessarily something that we're taught tons about in school. And there aren't really that many, at least, that I found. There aren't that many information sources out there of like a dermatologist or somebody who says, Hey, here's what this looks like. Yeah, you should be looking for this. I mean, again, not that we're doctors, but we look at a lot of backs.

We are seeing a lot more skin than some people's spouses. So yes, yeah, completely.

I always say, if you were my parent, I would get this checked, take that under advisement. So,

yeah, I think that, you know, that's that's definitely reasonable. It was, you know, for us covered in our pathology section. But a lot is. Covered into pathology as well, and, and, yeah, like, I think you're just doing the right thing, and I do the exact same thing. I agree with you that it would be a great refresher just on skin. I would agree that on skin conditions just in general, wouldn't be a bad a bad thing to be reminded of again, like I'm 19 years out, and, you know, the research changes. Everything changes. It is up to me to stay current. I understand that, but there's, there's a lot in 19, in 19 years, that I've forgotten about, I will admit, and I need that, that refresher, for sure, our continuing education system here used to be very similar to what you're describing. I think we had 30 hours every three years, and the majority of them had to be from like a hands on course, like you could do research, you could have discussion with your peers, you could read, but you majority, like the majority of your hours, had to come from hands on, which I do understand. What has changed for us now is that we get to choose. We just kind of have to do a self assessment about where, where we're at, and what we need, what we feel we need to learn. So you kind of, you kind of have some weaknesses that are going to come up when you self assess, and the goal is to then pursue courses that meet, you know, that kind of match those weaknesses, so that you can be a better practitioner. I don't see anything wrong with that. So there's a lot more flexibility, because it's so broad, though it does, it does confuse a lot of our massage therapists. I like it. Some people don't, but I found that with that other approach, where you had to have these 30 hours, these hands on hours by a certain date, well, most massage therapists, like they forgot until like, the last four months of the year that they needed these 30 hours, and then they're just scrambling to take any course that they can get, you know, and a lot doesn't necessarily come to Ottawa, so you're kind of like, well, maybe I could go to Toronto or, like, I've traveled to the States before for courses. But that, to me, doesn't feel like it's very like specific either, that now you're just scrambling to take courses for the sake of taking courses. Whereas you said you're looking for specific courses based on where your clients are at, what the demographic of your clients are, where your interests are. And I found that, yeah, I feel like it's just better this way. So not everybody's scrambling to take those courses just to meet the requirements. As I said, No, education is wasted. But I also feel like, did you really want to take that course on the foot? You know, probably not. I mean, it's great, but at the same time, like you're you're just like meeting your hours. And then I also feel like, course educators, course educators, like they deserve, like they deserve to be paid for their hard work. But I felt like they also could capitalize like on that, that demand, right? They're like, Well, I'm just gonna throw my course out there, because people have to meet like they have to meet these requirements. So I feel like that weeded out a lot of people doing courses just for the sake of selling courses. I mean, massage therapists, we you know, maybe, like hands on is not our only method to earn income. I get that, but, yeah, but amazing. Yeah, that's just my rant on on how continuing education works. Here

is that nationwide, or is that just in

Ontario? Ontario, correct? Yeah, that's just just for Ontario. We don't have anything that then holds us to a standard as a nation like so. Everything's just within Ontario. You know, if I want, if I wanted to work in a different province, like, things would would change, like, for the ones that are regulated to have to meet their requirements, and for a province like British Columbia, it's even more than what we have in Ontario. So I'd have to, like, upgrade. Or if I go to like, you know, East, like, I'm kind of there, and already anything else that sparked for you there, Colleen, it's

and it's pretty much the same thing here. Different states have different regulations. If I wanted to pick up and move to Colorado tomorrow, it would be a completely different process to either transfer my license see if they would even give me it like it's just a bull load of paperwork, trying to figure out, yes, I've been doing this for 15 years. I do know what I'm doing, like I did go to school, but trying to either transfer your license or be dual licensed is just insane, and things of you. Changed since I finished school 15 years ago. Not that there was a national license back then, but we were told if you go take your and I always get this acronym wrong, NCV, TMB certification, the National Certification Board of therapeutic massage and body work, that if you went and took that certification, then that might help you get a license in another state. I've never tried to get a license in another state, so I don't know if that would help me or not. I just have been lucky enough that I went to school in New York, got licensed in New York, and I practiced in New York. So, yeah,

yeah, really interesting. Have you have you taken courses outside of New York? Have you traveled for courses?

Yeah, I've traveled a good chunk in in New York. I've eyeballed taking some courses out of state, but scheduling usually doesn't work out. I've actually looked at going to Canada a couple times to take courses because I have one of my good friends lives outside Toronto, so I'm like, Oh, look place to stay.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Absolutely wonderful. Well, I loved like, just getting to, like, know, learn a little bit more about you, and then how things are operating there in New York, it sounds like you've got such a great thing going on for you right now, you're 15 years in practice. What's the long term goal for you?

Keep doing, keep on, keeping on, like, keep keep doing what I can as long as I can, so hopefully another 15 minimum. Yeah, good for you. I don't know what's gonna happen when I decide to kind of phase out,

right? And that's not, obviously, not on the top of your mind right now. What are you doing to make sure that your business, like we talked about, like, the schedule that you have and the flexibility, but like, what else are you doing to make sure that you keep your body and your mindset and like, how do you how do you keep your practice sustainable?

Don't overbook myself. I do try to get some sort of weight bearing exercise in multiple times a week, walk, eat healthy, like that. We're all athletes. We all have a body so it's trying to take care of what we have while we have it. So sometimes it's getting more sleep, sometimes it's going for a super long hike on the weekend. It just kind of depends. And I try to listen and go, Oh, well, maybe I should go get that massage sooner rather than later. Or maybe I need an extra adjustment this month, or trying to pay attention to what my body tells me, but I've been lucky enough that over the last 15 years, I haven't really had knock on wood, haven't really had any issues with injury, and I was fortunate enough while I was pregnant to work Literally, pretty much right up until the end.

Okay, good for you. Yeah.

I'm just curious how much time did you take off after you you had your little one six weeks? Okay, yep, then you went back. And then how did, how did your practice change after coming, coming back with a new one, and then, like, I'm, and then you're, she's six and a half now, so she's, like, in school. So that probably changed as well. Like, the routine

the hours have definitely changed over the years. Like when I first started, I would my last appointment would be like, 7pm now my last appointment is five or 5:30pm that's, yeah, with all the meetings and practices and dinner time, there's just a lot of extra stuff going on and and my patients know that I only work certain hours, and most, most of them have said To me, I'm glad you don't work so late anymore. Good for you.

That's nice. Yeah, it's really nice when you get that validation from clients. And I think that's a nice reminder for anybody listening, that it has come up on the podcast a few times that if you are working hours and you're you're like, I like, I really want to change my hours, but I always have this client that comes in at seven and they book religiously at seven. The chances that they are more flexible than you think they are like, are really, really great. And when you do change your schedule, they can adapt and and like you said, they're almost like, glad. They're like, good for good. For you for raising your rates, and for,

usually, always, I've been waiting for you to do this. Well, what took you so long? Sorry. Like, here we are.

Yeah, we love those clients. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, they so that's, that's wonderful. Sounds like you've got a really nurturing practice that that really like you obviously love what you do your clients, fulfill, you know, fulfill you as well. Like, there we, you know, sure there's going to be the the odd one. Like, in every, every practice, every once in a while, but the majority of

that we're getting to my favorite time of year where we all start to trade produce.

Oh, trade produce. Yeah. Oh, right, that's right, because yes, they bring you in, they bring you in what they got from their garden,

yeah. So they'll bring in stuff. I keep a basket at the office of stuff that we have overflow of. So it's kind of nice to be able to trade back and forth with people. I just got some asparagus, like, week 10 days ago, which was delicious, and I was so excited for asparagus. So

that is one of our perks. Is, yeah, produce and jam. I'm all for the jam. Yeah,

excellent. Well,

like I said, it's been wonderful to get to know you. You know, like I said, I wanted to come into this cold but we also kind of had that background idea of kind of discussing what it's like practicing, where we practice, and how it's just if it's different or the same, and our take on it. Any closing thoughts? Colleen,

no nothing exciting. Just keep doing what you're doing. And it was great chatting today. Yeah,

it was lovely to chat with you as far you