Download Otter for your meeting notes

S1E21 the-resurrection-of-the-alligator-snapping-turtle | Otter.ai

S1E21 the-resurrection-of-the-alligator-snapping-turtle

Natalia Sobery29min

Mark Finley

00:02

When they're in hunting mode, they'll have their mouths wide open. They'll have their little fishing Lord tongue at work, wiggling about trying to get somebody interested, somebody gets interested, comes a little bit too close. It's extremely fast and extremely powerful jaws, I would imagine that in larger turtles, that it may be as much as a foot away from their nose because they'd have that much longer neck, that you're in the danger zone.

Steve Fast

00:33

If you were a fish swimming in a lake or river in Illinois, the jaws of a prehistoric looking alligator snapping turtle would be bad news. However, for decades now, the powerful jaws of the alligator snapping turtle haven't been much of a worry for fish because they haven't been there. These predators have fallen prey to other creatures up the food chain, including the often inadvertent actions of humans. This is random acts of knowledge. I'm your host, Steve fast. Today we're talking about how educators and conservationists are bringing one very creepy looking creature back into the ecosystem for the how and why of the revival of the alligator snapping turtle will start in a biology lab at Heartland Community College.

Mark Finley

01:18

My name is Mark Finley, I teach Earth Science, environmental science, meteorology and physical geology here at Heartland.

Steve Fast

01:28

Talk a little bit about your involvement with the alligator snapping turtle project.

Mark Finley

01:32

Paul Ritter high school teacher from Pontiac asked if we would be interested in getting involved in raising juvenile alligator snapping turtles we agreed to we got the equipment to do it. And we've been doing it now for two years. We have been in the meantime recording their size, their weight throughout that time. And we've had student involvement that is meant to encourage folks to be interested in the great outdoors.

Steve Fast

02:04

What have you had the students do, how they've been involved?

Mark Finley

02:07

The students have been involved in handling the turtles and measuring the turtles and grafting the turtles progress as far as weight goes, but also in some mundane tasks like cleaning the turtle tank and feeding the turtles, etc.

Steve Fast

02:23

So these turtles are endangered. Is there any kind of special permission or certification that one has to have to be in possession of these turtles?

Mark Finley

02:32

We're operating under the permit that would be held by Paul Ritter up in Pontiac. So but the answer to that question is yes. They're not allowed to enter the pet market or anything like that. They are a threatened species.

Steve Fast

02:49

How much did they eat?

Mark Finley

02:51

You know, I don't know that we found the limit on how much they eat. They'll eat whatever we give them. And the limiting factor in how much we can give them really is been we tried to buy enough fish for a week at a time, that ends up costing nearly $25. We tried to do it so we can put it on a petty cash budget and get our money back. And then in the meantime, after the weeks done, they've eaten all the fish. So go from there.

Steve Fast

03:24

Tell me a little bit about the process of how you deal with the turtles every week, feeding them weighing them the rather mundane process of raising a couple of turtles for a couple of years.

Mark Finley

03:36

Well, it would be rather similar to watching grass grow for a couple of years if when you say use the term mundane, it's a not always the most exciting thing. Janet seems to think that Jenna beach Davis seems to think that I've grown attached somehow or another to these turtles. And not really not, not after you've cleaned up after him. They they really can't fall the water up pretty good over time. But they're also living things. And I want them to deliver in an environment in which they're going to flourish. And then they get a chance to move on and have the best chance of survival that they can

Steve Fast

04:17

you say you're not attached, you haven't named them.

Mark Finley

04:20

Their name is red and blue. That's the names. And that's because they came to us with a one of them had a red dot painted on its shell, and the other one had a blue dot painted on its shell. Blue is the bigger turtle red is the smaller turtles, but the name seemed to have stuck.

Steve Fast

04:39

Now the reason that these turtles are being reintroduced is to try to support the ecosystem a little bit explain about their role in the ecosystem and why it's important for animals like this to be part of wherever their native habitat is.

Mark Finley

04:56

You know, aquatic ecosystems are a big part Part of alloy really. So having those aquatic systems functioning properly is important. You've got water quality, you've got dissolved gases, you've got turbidity, you've got all of these kinds of factors that go into determining whether it's a suitable ecosystem or not for particular species, we humans have made a big impact through our hunting through our fishing through our use of rivers and lakes and streams as as garbage pits. We've made a big impact on those kinds of systems. And since 1972, which is the introduction of the Clean Water Act, alloy waterways have gotten cleaner and cleaner. In the meantime, what have we've seen reintroduced Illinois waterways, we've seen Beaver, we've seen alligator gar, we've seen alligator snapping turtles that are on the verge of being reintroduced. We've seen river otters, river otters can't make it in Illinois waterways. Unless they're their primary food happens to be present and their primary foods are mussels. Mussels are very sensitive to water turbidity. So it all works together and bringing the the alligator snapping turtle back into the system back into the system will help control different species, there will be another limiting factor that other species have to deal with. And the overall impact will remain to be seen once those turtles are back in the water.

Steve Fast

06:34

So talk a little bit about how these turtles hunt and eat and how they sustain themselves. You've been feeding them. But when they get reintroduced, they will have to try to find their own prey and hopefully control some of the populations in those rivers.

Mark Finley

06:53

Their sedentary hunters, they really in a way are ambush hunters. But the prey has to come to them. They have methods of drawing the prey in when they're in hunting mode, they'll have their mouths wide open, they'll have their little fishing lure tongue at work, wiggling about trying to get somebody interested, somebody gets interested, comes a little bit too close. It's extremely fast and extremely powerful jaws within about, you know, with the size cells that we have, within about four inches of its nose, you're in the danger zone as a fish. I would imagine that on larger turtles, that it may be as much as a foot away from their nose because they'd have that much longer necks that you're in the danger zone. And once they secure their prey, they they hold it until it quits wiggling essentially, then they'll start trying to maneuver it to take it down their gullet headfirst and swallow it whole.

Steve Fast

08:03

Have you ever had a digit in the danger zone?

Mark Finley

08:08

digit in the danger zone that would be a good t shirt by the way for alligator snapping people? And then you could have you could actually cut off your own finger like a Van Gogh and pretend like alligator snapping turtle did it. Or you could actually let one do it. Yeah diverged now you've gotten me off topic, but no, I haven't.

Steve Fast

08:29

Tell me a little bit about how these animals differ from other turtles that we might see in a lake or even from other snapping turtles that you might find more naturally in central Illinois.

Mark Finley

08:41

I think everybody has run across the common snapping turtle in Illinois. They're very common. You'll see him early in the year especially as they're looking for mates from one place to another. You can see him crossing roads. They take some fatalities in that direction. They lay their eggs on land, they'll lay their eggs and shallow pits, their long, leathery, reptilian, kind of an egg if you would. But it's been my experience that they are much more aggressive, they're much more active. They are also more more common in lakes and ponds. Alligator snapping turtles are pretty much limited to river systems and backwater lakes attached to river systems. Then the common snapping turtle, other turtles like aquatic turtles like sliders and red bellies and all of those kinds of things. They are also fish eaters, for the most part, but they're a little bit more active Hunter and not near as scary. Let's put it that way. They're not near as Jurassic Park looking as the alligator snapping turtle is

Steve Fast

09:54

talk a little bit about how the reintroduction of these turtles might affect invasive species. I know that we talked a little bit about Asian carp. That might be one of the benefits of reintroducing these animals back into the ecosystem.

Mark Finley

10:10

So invasive species non indigenous species not native to Illinois, both terrestrial and aquatic, we've got our fair share of non indigenous species and aquatic systems, one of the biggest ones biggest impact ones has really been the zebra mussel. Now, this is not a control factor for the zebra mussel. But another one that folks might be familiar with as the Asian carp. And we see that profiled along the Illinois River, particularly around peaking in Purium non indigenous species that's thrived. It's out competed native species, what in the heck? How'd it get so out of balance, bringing back certain types of organisms, like top level predators, like alligator snapping turtle and like the alligator gar, it's funny, they both have the same prefix name is really an attempt to bring systems back into balance. And time will tell how successful those kinds of efforts are. But I'll say this, wildlife biologists are pretty savvy group. And they're they have some great success stories in Illinois, as far as the reintroduction of species go. So 20 years from now, let's see what how this all pans out.

Steve Fast

11:34

Thanks, Mark for telling us about this project.

Mark Finley

11:36

Glad to be a part of this project. Thank you very much.

Steve Fast

11:39

The alligator snapping turtle species survival project is a widespread endeavor, but it began and continues to develop through the work of a high school science teacher in Pontiac, Illinois. Let's meet him.

Speaker 1

11:51

My name is Paul Ritter. I'm a science teacher at Pontiac Township High School in Pontiac, Illinois. I'm also an instructor for Heartland Community College dual credit, EAA, SC 111, and 122 which is environmental Earth. And I'm also the Director for the operation Endangered Species Program that goes throughout Illinois.

Steve Fast

12:12

So tell us a little bit about that program. What is the operation Endangered Species Program?

Speaker 1

12:17

Cooperation endangered species is a way for students throughout Illinois to work on bringing back a particular species, whether it be on the threatened or endangered list to the state of Illinois and the background of OPERS endangered species started back in 2011. I was the President of the Illinois Science Teachers Association. And one of my jobs was to work with our guest speakers coming in our guest speaker that you're happen to be Dr. Brady bar, National Geographics resident herpetologist, Dr. Bar, and I got to spend quite a bit of time together. And one thing led to another with two guys who like to brainstorm and think about opportunities and ideas. And I said, you know, would it be cool if we could work together by finding a way to get kids engaged in conservation biology, the idea was, we would find a reasonably extinct or threatened species of reptile because as national geographic term pathologist, that's, you know, his forte, happened to be mine as well. And what came out as we went back to the kids and says, Okay, let's forget the species of Illinois that are endangered or threatened herbs, and let's see what we can do. And so out of that we came across, I think it was like for turtles, the yellow muds, spiny softshell Blandings, Fanny alligator snapping turtle, the kids immediately gravitated and, and said that the alligator snapping turtle was what we were going to work on, because it was just the ugliest thing ever. And they felt that with a face like that somebody had to help. And so it's kind of a throwback to the dinosaurs, you know. And so, our students then put together a proposal and said, This is what we want to do. We proposed the idea to the department natural resources as they went higher, and they said, Okay, if you can come up with the money to do the program, you can do it. They required a big amount. $100,000. And so, you know, it was one of those things where it was a lofty goal, but the kids were dedicated and determined to do so. And so, working with our English department, Mr. Mike sores, does amazing work with our English students. And as an English teacher, he really has not been had not been to that point. We kind of said, okay, is this something we can do with your kids in your English classes? Absolutely. Mr. Saunders is also a Heartland instructor for his dual credit English class. So as we kind of move forward with that we propose OSED a grant to the State Farm Youth Advisory Board State Farm advisory board at an application process at that time that you could apply up to $100,000 to work on conservation effort project. And sure enough, they said, We think what you're doing is the right thing. And so we had a huge ceremony came back with a big check for $100,000 and said, Okay, we're ready to go. And from there, we started implementing the program by letting students be the agents of change, you know, and putting alligator snapping turtles in one classroom at a time. And so, as we did that, it's been a whole host of organizations that we've been able to work with pure zoo, DNR, there's so many Dr. Barr and his group and, and so as a result of it, we've been able to put in over 500, turtles back into the wild and into their native home range. And as I understand it, you know, we've lost a few. And we've had to adjust the model for what we did put him back in the wild, it was two, four, and six year old age classes that we were putting in into the wild. But we've since had to adjust because two year olds were getting beat up really bad. The reality is, is alligator snapping turtles have a fairly high mortality rate in the 012, you start to get into three fours, fives, and pretty soon nothing really messes with them anymore. You know, in the early ages, are they fallen to to diseases? Or are they falling prey to an organism, pretty easy to do at that stage. But once you get them to a point where they can really manage for themselves, nothing messes with them anymore. And so it's pretty exciting, you know, alligator snapping turtles, you know, have a lot of things against them, one wouldn't think that. But really, if you think about it, there's a lot that it takes to get them to the point where they're going to survive, you know, a good example is raccoons are incredible nest predators. And so, as a result, a lot of times eggs are not going to make it to hatching. And then you've got otters and some other things that are involved. And they do a really good job of consuming them as well. And then once they've hatched, and are able to make it on their own, then they're still susceptible to being hit, and consumed, if you will, by other animals and predators. Not to mention whether, you know, a fast moving Chevy comes along, so there's a lot going against it. It's got a bad name, you know, your people your Oh, it's an alligator snapping turtle. So now they're thinking, Oh, this is really a deadly creature, and don't particularly care for but then you've got the other side of that saying, Okay, well, people, and people used to do this. And sometimes people still do this. People ate alligator snapping turtle as a food source, right. So whether it be making turtle soup, or deep fried or whatever, but it's definitely a situation where, because they don't reproduce until an older age, then the problem is, they're reproducing at an older age. They're not having survived with a baby's population just plummets. I think 1983 1984 was the last known example of alligator snapping turtles in the wild, confirmed by a sighting. And we're not really sure how, how accurate that setting was then. So as a result, we're putting in Alligator snapping turtles back in the wild, we're going through turtles into the classroom, everything's going fantastic. And then our PhD student who studies this program and putting the turtles back in the wild, they were out tracking because all of our turtles have trackers on them, tracking a number of trying to recover a couple just see what how they were doing kind of look down. And lo and behold, they pulled one out and it's not one of ours. So then there was this, oh my gosh, where did this turtle comes from? Come to find out. And we know they play an incredible game of hide and seek. And so they found one and it was a native turtle that had been playing a really good job, hide and seek,

Steve Fast

19:43

walk me through the process from beginning to end how you get the turtles, the process of fostering them, distributing them amongst your partners and then the process of reintroduction just from beginning to end.

Speaker 1

19:55

We get the turtles in July as we're doing our releases We're getting our new set of turtles in they are ones that we receive from US Fish and Wildlife facility in Tishomingo, Oklahoma. The turtles come from Tishomingo, we take them back to the classroom as classrooms contact us and say okay, we'd like to be a part of the program they apply for endangered species permit. From there, the Endangered Species permit allows them to take care of their turtle, their turtle, or turtles, I should say, we usually do up to two. But as a result, the two turtles, they raised them, feeding them on a diet of live as well as dried foods or other food items. So sometimes they'll eat things like repto mini sticks that are made by Tetra fauna. They really love those, they like freeze dried, grilled by them as well. And so as a result, we supplement their diet that way. But they really liked live things, goldfish, crayfish, tadpoles, big Bullfrog dead bowl they love. And so by doing so, we give them kind of like the sauna in the classroom, you know, they're at the spa, for the week only this spa treatment lasts for a couple of years, kids, students classrooms, take vital measurements within length of the plastron in the Karapiro, which is bottom in the top shell, then they also weigh them once a week as well. And by doing this, we can track their overall health, we can monitor, okay, are they gaining or losing weight as the shell is getting bigger? What's the overall attitude of the organism, we tried to make sure that the animals are kept in a situation where they're not overly worked with. And the reason why I say that is we want them to keep their natural tendency for an animal to be cautious and scared, and not want to be around humans. And so we don't overly work with them, we try to make sure that they're not over sensitized, or desensitized if you will, to human behavior and stimulus. So we keep them in a classroom for two years, at the end of two years, then they go to a zoo, and they're kept in observation and quarantine for a period of a year. Reason why we do that is we want to make sure that the organism that we're releasing back into the wild, does not have anything that would cause it to be contaminating to other animals in the wild. And so as a result of that, we make sure that these are animals that are appropriate to go back in, we make sure that, you know, we've done our due diligence, and not compromised anything. So it's very, very organized and structured in the sense that we're very careful to make sure that we're not doing any harm. That said, the Turtles and everything else when they go in, once they're released, they're monitored. So we've been monitoring since we started releasing, which is we've we're in the sixth year of releases right now. And they keep track of them all. And so it's exciting to see kids engaged in conservation biology engaged in really making a difference in a species. And so knowing that, you know, this is a student driven program and developed, we're always allowing our students to come up with new ideas. And so it's not just about the alligator snapping turtle, which that was our beginning stage. I mean, the idea was to put the snap back on the map, right? Well, our kids, since that time expanded our program, by looking at things that also get them excited that they want to champion as well. And so, for example, our students working with our lifeskills kids in Pontiac and tri point and a couple other areas, we've been able to put in over 1000 bluebird houses back into their native home range. Now, eastern bluebird is not an endangered species in Illinois by any means. But their numbers are very low as a result of loss of habitat and specific habitat. So our kids working with community members, and schools like drypoint and Solomon and Prairie Central, by working with those schools putting in those habitats. We've seen the increasing number of eastern bluebird and live his county, which the governor declared lovesick county Bouvard, capital of Illinois, but my students are also branching out. They're wanting to work with a particular species of crayfish and see if they can work with it. So the beginning of Operation endangered species by working with collaborators to kind of see where we can go carries over into the students they want to see what else If they can do to dedicated to the alligator snapping turtle and reestablishing it, obviously, as a breeding population, so they're Illinois, but operating endangered species is called that, because they're focused on other things too. It just so happens, we started with the alligator snapping turtle. And that really did allow us to establish a system for kids to really make a difference.

Steve Fast

25:26

When the turtles are released, you say it'll be in July,

Speaker 1

25:30

we've been releasing them now, like I said, for six years. So each July, we go to a location, an undisclosed location, done so that way, because we really don't want to have any interaction with people, we want to minimize the possibility of people tampering or trying to obtain them, or whatnot. So we keep it as a secure location. But the students do get to go and release those turtles with the professionals. Absolutely. And interestingly enough, though, it's exciting is our program doesn't just work with high schools, right. So clearly, we work with the college level, because we're working with Heartland Community College, but we also go down, I think our youngest programs like second grade, it's so exciting because these kids are engaged in conservation biology, you know, they're starting at age 768. Imagine the possibility of where these kids will take their ideas and the things that they're doing. And so to be able to be a part of a recovery of a species at age seven, if you will, it just does set the stage for some amazing things.

Steve Fast

26:50

Pretty amazing. And it's also a different way for those kids to start thinking about wild animals.

Speaker 1

26:55

You know, where are we at? As a world? I mean, I was reading a publication the other day, and they said, the reality is, there's not any truly wild species in the world anymore. I mean, humans have impact to some degree on every every one of them. And so the reality is, if we don't have an appreciation, and maybe it's not for the alligator snapping turtle, if we don't have an understanding and appreciation for species in general, and maybe you'll have your favorites down the line, then, as we go, if we've not developed that drive, then the plight of species across the board are going to be heavily decimated. I mean, the reality is, is this, people have the opportunity to make a difference. And knowing that they have the opportunity to make a difference, and have done so at an early age only sets the stage for great things in the in the future.

Steve Fast

27:57

Well, thanks so much for joining us today and talking about this project and alligator snapping turtle and what you've been doing over the last several years.

Speaker 1

28:06

Thank you, Steven. It sure is a privilege I'm, I'm humbled to be able to work with such great people and organizations, but it's the kids that really, that I am I'm truly inspired by all of the students involved in the program. As an educator, it's everything that we live for.

Steve Fast

28:31

Random Acts of knowledge is presented by Heartland Community College. If you're interested in hearing more interviews about science, conservation, art, history, or any number of subjects subscribe to this podcast via iTunes, Spotify or audio boom. Thanks for listening

00:0000:00