Pride Week! Day 3: Putting the “A” in the Alphabet

9:02PM Jun 17, 2022

Speakers:

Keywords:

asexual

sex

people

asexuality

jamie

sexual

realising

relationship

justine

spectrum

characters

figuring

misconceptions

question

asexual community

sexual attraction

experience

bit

partner

community

It is day three of our Pride Week celebrations, we've been replaying a few of our favourite LGBTQIA plus related conversations. Today, we've got a real treat for you.

Back in March, we sat down with Jamie Mac and Justine Munich to talk about the broad spectrum of asexuality. And the many different ways one can experience love. We cannot wait to reshare this episode with you. I'm in love with you. Love with you. Now, I know as a romance novelist, you think a lot about what is going to be sexy for your readers, because some of your books are very spicy, lots of numbers. And some of them are slightly less peppery, but still very sexy. And sexual attraction, when you're writing it down requires a very specific language, doesn't it?

It does. And I think it's really important, especially the more books I write, use used to be back in the day and you remember sort of in the digital heyday, the early digital heyday where where there really was a bit of a pressure to like, amp, the sex op amp the sex up, because that's what sold Yeah. And I felt that pressure quite a bit. And I was always a little bit anxious. Like, when if there's not enough sex, what if you know, it's not gonna be right, and that the more books I wrote, the more I realised that it really just depended on the characters. So I do have, I have a couple of books that could definitely even be like, you know, I think are recommended to like older teens and stuff like that, because they're not as there's not as much sex in them, even though it might still be explicit. And I have others that are like full on erotic romance. So once I figured out like, okay, the characters really have to drive how much sex there is, and just like, like people, there's a spectrum of, of characters in the spectrum of what they're going to do, you kind of have to listen to that. And I think that helps keep it sexy, and for me, and for readers, and also keeps it interesting and fresh. I

have had email from readers who have told me that they figured out that they were demisexual, because they only wanted to encounter sexual explicit content in the context of a emotional connection between the characters. And there was a there was a time when a lot of romance novels open with the sex scene like you just right banging on page one. Yeah, and this view of those, right, and there and there. And this person, this person wanted to experience much more of an emotional connection between the characters and with the characters before they wanted to engage with any explicit sexual on the page content. And I thought what an interesting waited to to learn about yourself, because we're under so much pressure to define ourselves under very specific normative conditions. There are many different types of people and many different types of attractions, and we can talk about ourselves and our own experiences. But our guests today are going to help us take a much more intriguing look at asexuality, we are joined by two amazing guests. Justine is the board chair of asexual outreach, and Jamie has written the critically acclaimed short film it's not you, it's not me about asexuality. Before we begin this interview, I want to give you some basic terms. If you're not familiar with any of these pieces of information, here's a quick primer for you. Ace or asexual often refers to people who don't experience sexual attraction arrow or a romantic refers to people who don't experience romantic attraction, and aloe or aloe sexual is not the skincare item. This is a reference to people who do experience sexual attraction. And there's a spectrum that includes all of us, here to talk with us about all of the different ways to be in the world. Please welcome Justine and Jamie. Welcome, Jamie and, Justine. Thank you. We are so excited to talk to you. And I'm so curious about your work because I know your friends and your work overlaps a little bit. Yeah. And I want to start with misconceptions. Because once people Google the idea of they've never encountered as a sexuality before or begin to learn about it, you run into some false information and misconceptions. There's many of them. What are some of the major misconceptions that you deal with

misconceptions? The idea that sexual attraction is the same thing as having a libido that's a big one. The idea that asexual people like never have sex or that all asexual people are a sex repulsed, as opposed to understanding that there's a very big spectrum, thinking that asexuality may tie in to like not wanting a relationship at all. And also not understanding that like a romanticism is a thing that exists. So realising that those two things are separate.

I, what I want to answer this question with is a bit more of a long term view. Because something I find fascinating is the change in the misconceptions I've seen, oh, please tell me everything. I joined the asexual community when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. Oh, that's when I started on the internet. I remember this time, we must have met. And back when I first joined the community, there exists a time when asexuality was a thing that people associated with asexual reproduction. And the concept of this could apply to humans that all was weird and alien. So moving through there to the point where we're at right now, where most people at least recognise that it can be a sexual orientation, I have not had to explain that. And it is an orientation for years. And that is refreshing. And we get a completely different set of misconceptions all the way through to Oh, you're asexual while you're a full human being. But that just means you don't ever want sex or a relationship, right? Yeah, it's been really, really interesting watching those misconceptions evolve. And I think it's really a reflection of the dedication and the work of so many amazing ace and a row activists.

And it must feel very nice to know that in not every situation, will you have to start with the, you know, the intro level explanation of a piece of who you are, that there's more vocabulary and that other people know the vocabulary now,

places like OKCupid now have asexual as a possible orientation, you can put on your profile. And it doesn't stop people from contacting you. This is just leaps and bounds of amazingness. In my mind, Jamie,

did you notice any of these changes? As you were lurking in a sexual communities online? Did you notice this evolution of at all,

I think what I've noticed is more an expansion of different definitions and labels within the community. So trying to stay on top of new terms, people are still confused, trying to figure out, oh, this, this label doesn't really feel like me. But like I exist, so there must be some way for me to describe who I am how I feel.

And there's the amazing opportunity for a community to learn the language to define itself. And seeing that happen is very cool, I would imagine. Yeah,

yeah, as a scientist, I love watching that, to the evolution of language describe, because what it means to me is that we're seeing people find more precision in their self measurements, right. So there used to be a time when, for example, we could only measure things down to the millimetre or so we didn't have very precise measurement tools. And I think that correlates very strongly to an era where we had asexual and not asexual. And then one day, we found out that Grey's sexuals exists where they're in the middle, and we earned a little more precision in our measurement. And since then, the amount of self exploration that humans have gone through to to achieve such fine granulated measurements is just it's all inspiring to me. Because all of that existed probably the whole time. But we just had to learn our way through and learn how to measure these things.

I love a good taxonomy in your perspectives, having a romantic relationship with someone who is asexual can take on a lot of different forms that I mean, people contain multitudes and also nuance as we've been discussing. So what are some of your experiences in having romantic or being in romantic relationships? Where one or both parties are asexual?

I think the the challenge with the relationship I had was that he didn't realise that he was on the asexual spectrum when we first started dating. And it wasn't until maybe six months in that I started asking questions, because up until that point, I had been trying to initiate sexual encounters. And it'd be like, I'm really I'm really tired because I've been working a lot or I gotta get up early tomorrow. So I I guess it's time for me to go home now. Or, like, can we just do something else instead? And then eventually realising Oh, it's like we haven't been dating for that long and usually I find in my relationships, we're still in like a sexual honeymoon kind of phase. Yeah, and so recognising that it's a little bit different and so asking questions like the character doesn't the film that I made like is Is it me like I'm I have a problem. I like, uh, you're not attracted to me.

We'll be right back after the short break

like, unfortunately, at the time, because, you know, he was into me, but he he couldn't figure out like, why he didn't want to have sex with me. So he'd say things like, oh, maybe like, you could lose some weight or like, oh, I guess like some of my, like ex partners were more blunder like bigger precedent stuff. And that definitely took a little bit of a toll on my like, confidence. We're all in me right now. I want to give stars,

Virtual hugs, Virtual hugs, that's not true. Holy smokes.

I know that now. But at the time, you know, I just wanted to do whatever I could to try to make the relationship work. And luckily, I had been friends with Justine and her partner for a number of years. Otherwise, I don't know that I would have known what asexuality was yet. And so the thought occurred to me like, oh, maybe he's possibly on the spectrum. So I raised it with him. And he had actually, one of our mutual friends had visited his university course to give a lecture on asexuality. And he was like, yeah, some of the things she was saying. sounded familiar. So like, maybe. And then once we started exploring that idea, the question then became, okay, so if you are on the spectrum, and maybe you aren't fully comfortable having sex, what does that mean for our relationship? Am I comfortable? Maybe not having sex? Potentially, like, ever again, if that's what you decide, is what you're comfortable with? Do we open up the relationship? I didn't want to at the start, necessarily, but I know that for him, it was the thought was that if I never had sex again, and we were lifetime, monogamous, he was rightfully so very scared that I would build resentment over us not having sex. And maybe that would then lead to more pressure on him or just breakdown over the relationship in general. And so that's partially what inspired me to write the phone just because I know at the time, it just felt like, it feels like there's no right right answer at this time, just because we were both so new to it and figuring ourselves out. And I think if I were to start another relationship like that, again, I have much better vocabulary and know what questions to ask next. Yeah.

I want to ask you before I miss the opportunity, what is your film about?

Oh, yeah, so it kind of takes place all on one night, where the aloe sexual character loosely based on myself raises that question to her, her partner of why they haven't had sex for months. And they go down this journey of figuring out who each of them are, and what that means for the relationship. Right.

So Justin, what about you in terms of relationships? What have your experiences been, like? Understanding of course, that you speak for all. Asexual is everywhere. Every last one, of course, Oh, of course. Understanding that this is solely your experience, I feel like it's important to sort of point that out sometimes, because I don't want anyone to listen and think, Oh, well, this is what a sexual experience singular is like. So please tell me your experience. And I'm really glad

that you bring that up. Because I'm so used to having to preface every question I ever answered with that. Before I had the words to associate with a sexuality. I used to think that I didn't want sex because I was tired. I used to think that I didn't want sex because I had something to think about tomorrow. I just thought that was normal. And I'm like, Oh, well wait till like, next month on the fourth that 1pm I have five minutes. So bringing up those excuses, felt like the best way I could describe what was going on in my head because I didn't have better words. And that is a large part of why I do this advocacy is because I want people to have better words to be able to describe what's going on for them. Especially because I've seen what kind of damage I have inadvertently done to partners. And it's a bit of a different dynamic, like sis men have different insecurities, but they're still there. And I think that that dynamic is a little bit different because there's different ways of expressing that that are societally acceptable. And he definitely still went through a journey of feeling unattractive because I wasn't attracted to him. So looking back, I wish I could go back and give everyone involved in that situation a hug. I just didn't know what was odd And as the years have gone by, I've learned a lot about how other people experience asexuality as well. And that gives me even more ability to describe the way I experienced it. What are some things that you think the asexual community can teach us about romance, which is a separate concept? I know, I think the very first thing that asexuality brought to the forefront about romance was that it was different from sexuality. So yeah, before I discovered this community intimacy was used as a broad envelope term, to mean connection in a relationship, and often as a euphemism for physical sex. But it was often not separated out or specified, right, you could talk about intimacy with your partner. And that could mean a nice movie night, or it could mean a nice movie night that ended in sex and no one knew because nobody wanted to say the word sex.

Yes, I have used intimacy as a euphemism for sex many times, especially when talking to the media.

Exactly. And that's something I'm really fighting. I guess I have started reclaiming it and using the word intimacy, to mean whatever I define it to me. Yeah. And I know that it means nothing to anyone else when I use that word, because unless you know me, well, you don't know what it means to me. Right? Unless you've actually dated me or talks to me about my dating experience. You don't know what I mean, when I say intimacy. And I really enjoy that. I love it. I love that it with this new definition underlines the complexity and the barriers that human beings so I'm working hard on making that the operating definition in my life.

Jamie, what about you? What, what is what can the asexual community teach us about romance? If you have more to add? I want to hear it.

I mean, along those same lines, I remember when I was first struggling with this, chatting with my roommate, and he said, Jamie, have you heard about the five love languages? There's, there's more than sex to express how you love someone. And I was like, Well, what and and I think that's something that anybody who's looking to further a relationship with someone could benefit from, and I think inherent to identify as asexual as you know, figuring out where your boundaries are. And I think that's something that alow sexual people, aka people who experience sexual attraction could also benefit from doing things like for example, in the relationship that I was in, my partner didn't enjoy deep kissing. And that was something that I craved more than sex really, because for me, that was, that's one of the ways that I really enjoy intimacy. But I think for him deep kissing necessarily lead to sex. Whereas if we had established that it didn't need to, then you could have potentially enjoyed that more.

I have learned so much from this conversation. Thank you so very, very much for your time. Justine, where can people find you on the internet?

several places. So I do have an account on Avon, which is the Asexual Visibility and Education Network. The URL is a sexuality.org. My name on there is heart.

And Jamie, where can people find you and your film?

I'm Jamie Mac on YouTube. JYM e space Ma k and same at Jamie Mac on Instagram and Twitter.

Fabulous. Thank you both so so much.

Thank you for some really amazing questions.

Sara, what is your love to go for this fantastic episode and these fantastic guests,

you and everyone who is listening to me right now you are perfect and normal and wonderful. Exactly the way you are and there's nothing wrong with you. A lot of people especially in this conversation, we talked about feeling abnormal and what's wrong with me I don't fit why is this problem? It isn't a problem. There's nothing wrong with you. You are wonderful, exactly the way you are. I would like to hear about you and how you are and if you've learned about yourself using the language that you've learned from other communities you can email us at lovestruck daily at frolic dot media. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at lovestruck daily. We would love to hear from you and we would do we'd love it if you left a review if you do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

and thank you for tuning in to our Pride Week celebration here on lovestruck tune back in tomorrow for a final rerelease

this week. Our researcher is Jesse Epstein. Our editor is Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail steckler and little Scorpion studios and Julian Davis with executive producer frolic media. This is an iHeartRadio podcast. We wish all of you on every spectrum and every place and in every way of being a wonderful happily ever after. I'm in love with love with you. I'm in love with you