MCIE inclusive education benefits all learners. And if you want to hear why stick around, you're not going to want to miss this conversation
My name is Tim Diegans from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you are listening to think inclusive a show where with every conversation we tried to build bridges between families, educators, and disability justice advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do@mcie.org I'm on vacation for much of June so I'm recording if you intros and outros from one of my favorite places circle of friends coffee shop in Woodstock, so, so pardon the background noise. Coleen Tomko is a parent and advocate for inclusion. A Penn State graduate, a graduate of Partners in Policymaking and president of kids together as an all volunteer unfunded nonprofit. Calling Tomko believes that all students should have the opportunity to learn and grow in an inclusive environment. She has seen firsthand the benefits of inclusion for her son Shawn, who has a disability, Shawn has been fully included throughout his education. He also uses a communication device and other technology. Here is what we cover in today's episode. Why inclusion is important for all students regardless of their abilities. That advocacy is essential for ensuring that all students have access to an inclusive education. And that everyone has a role to play in creating an inclusive society. Before we dive into today's fantastic interview, I've got a question for you. Have you ever felt like you're losing touch with the people in your life, but you don't want to be glued to social media all the time just to get updates? Well, fret no more because I've got the perfect solution for you. Together letters. It's a fantastic tool that can bring you closer to your loved ones. How does it work? It's simple to gather letters is a group email newsletter that gathers updates from all its members, and combines them into a single easy to read newsletter for everyone. No fancy apps or complicated platforms needed just good ol email. We even use together letters to keep our thinking cluesive patrons connected with each other. Plus, here's the best part groups of 10 or less can use it for free. So why wait, head over to together letters.com and sign up right now. Reconnect with your favorite people because together letters has got your back. And now my interview with Colleen Tomko.
So first of all, Hello, nice to meet you. I feel like we've been trying to set this up for a long time. So I'm glad that we finally connected. And so I know you or I know of your work through kids together. So why don't we start there? You know, why did you start kids together? You know, and how does that connect with the cartoons and the parent side and everything? So give me a little bit of background on that.
Okay, so basically, it goes way back to mind growing up, I grew up knowing people with disabilities that did everyday things. And so my mom had, I just want to go over a couple of those because this is what led to what I do. Yeah, oh, my mom had her own tax and accounting office. And she met a man named Darryl. And she needed to get copies made for a business. And he used the wheelchair and had limited hand movement. And she befriended him, and then realized like that he couldn't get out and stop and she helped him get an adapted van. And so then we ended up like just knowing Darryl, he'd come to our house or hanging out, go to picnics, and just do stuff with us. And he was just a friend of the families and that my grandmother had a friend and her name was Francis. And she would go to being home with her or come over and watch TV with her and that. And so I just grew up that, you know, branches speech was her speech was a little bit slow and odd. And then she might need help, like dialing the phone or counting your money or something like that. And someone would just say, oh, Francis needs help, and somebody would help her and it was just the way that I knew that things were dying. And then my mom was taking a class at the community college and she met a lady named Lexi in her class who was using a power chair and found out that Lexi lived right down the road from us. And so then she ended up like driving her power chair down over her house and then my parents will put up a a wooden ramp like a plywood and she would come in and they drink wine and laugh and everything like that. So what So my perspective growing up was that, you know, we didn't call people by disability terms. We didn't like say something negative or think that they shouldn't be there. I just assumed that People with disabilities were part of what everybody else did. And that they just, you know that I knew that they ran a business, they went to college, they went to bingo, they had friends, and people just help them out. And we didn't use the terms like I didn't know until I was an adult that Darrell had quadriplegia you quadriplegia from a diving accident. I never even thought of Francis as having an intellectual disability. I was like 3040 years old, until I reflected on that was like, Oh my gosh, like, just didn't even you know, it wasn't a question. And Lexi had cerebral palsy, and I'm still friends with Alexei. And so when son was born, I probably came into this whole scenario has a different perspective for most people, because I thought people with disabilities were always fully included and stuff. And, and so when we decided that, you know, he's old enough, we want to go to preschool or something, when we knew he had disabilities, but we didn't, I didn't think any, I didn't think it would be so hard to get him in stop. So then when we approached like a preschool that night, we started that was when it started, like, you know, he needs there's places for people like him, he needs to go somewhere else. And, and that and that was like a theme throughout his whole life, there's places for him, he has to go somewhere else. So we looked at these other places. They weren't learning through play or child stuff. It was like all therapy and rigid, and I was like, I don't want that for him. And I found the place that was it was called reverse mainstreaming. It was the best I could do. But at least they learned through play. And there were kids without disabilities with them. So when I grew up, I just thought there weren't a lot of people with disabilities. I didn't know everything was segregated. So that to me, was my motivation, like hearing him, so I'm just expecting, we're just gonna accommodate him have the life, you know, like anybody else. And then to me, it was, that was a big shock. So we got him in this early childhood school that had the reverse mainstreaming, at least he did playing and there were kids without disabilities in the class. And then I started realizing like, this is gonna be a fight for the rest of his life, like it hit me like a brick wall. So I started going to advocacy stuff, and I went to see to pee to the Partners and Policymaking for Pennsylvania. And then I hooked up with other parents, and we decided to start doing kids together to help promote, you know, that people should just be part of the community and be included. So the first and then all at the same time, while I was taking the classes, I doodle, that's my doodle my whole life. That's what I do. So we're in these classes, learning about the history of disability and rights and all that. And I'm, I'm getting mad because I didn't know it was such a struggle. And I just draw these things out. And then everybody else was saying, like, hey, you need to put these on T shirts, or, you know, mugs and stuff like that, because you're just capturing like, what we're all feeling. And that this looks to me, it was like therapy. I wasn't I really never made it a business like but i Everybody wanted it. So I just kept drawing. And it helped me put things in perspective. And then we also started, I started the kids together. It was like a large kids festival. And the purpose was to promote inclusion in the community in ways that we didn't think were happening or like once your eyes were opened up, when you saw, you know, there's there's steps everywhere, there's, people are told to go somewhere else. There's all these barriers. So the kids together festival was just supposed to be like, you know, it was really built to just educate the public and to model for people in the community. So we had people with disabilities participating in it, we had people with disabilities as performers, we had adapted material, so like kids would do art projects, but we had adaptations. So any it was universally designed, you could use the large brown handle or you could just use the small paintbrush, and we we tried to just model like this is not a big deal to to have welcome everybody. And then we also did like I call it propaganda like so we had like Seinfeld play, you know, like, Ida allows kids with disabilities, like we just put them all around the festival. So like, people were just being bombarded while they were there, having fun and seeing it and reading it. And then we also gave out materials, and we had booths. So we would have like a booth from maybe somebody that helps employment for people with disabilities, but it would be next to like the hospital that's doing blood pressure. We didn't want anything to promote, like anything was different. We wanted to just model it for everybody that people this can be done and people shouldn't be together. And it's not a big deal. And it was really, really successful. But it was really, really a lot of work.
Oh, yeah. So no question about that. When did you like how many years did you do that? Wait.
Yeah, we did it for about five years in a row. And it was people were sad was stopped. But I but then Shawn was getting older. And I had the battle hit in school, because people were like, Oh, it must be hard having shot. No, it's the battles that have to fight for him that are hard. Like he's really easy. He's fun, He's entertaining, and it's just that so that I had to like, make him a priority even I even everything I do for Shawn is is bigger than him like, I would never just say, Oh, this has to be for him. It has to be systemic wide. It has to I don't like focus just on him. But I have to get him first. And so and then at that also we were we foster adopted at that time. So it was just and then he ended up having behavior issues. So it was very difficult to deal with the schools and fighting for, you know, the IPS and getting services for both of them. And that that just became more time consuming. Theory time.
So Shawn was included, Shawn, right. Yes. So Shawn was included from like, kindergarten through,
Shawn was fully included, like I saw him was fully included from kindergarten, I went to the school a year ahead of time and said, He's coming, you gotta get ready. And they didn't take me serious. And that's one of my cartoons like, you know, registration, they asked, Can you hop or run? Will you not Willie sit still, he's not able to walk. Like they were ridden. There was not the they weren't inclusive questions, even though apply to go to kindergarten. And then we had to have a meeting with like, 25 people telling us that he should go somewhere else. And you know, and we just stuck because I had the training. I had like all the policies and laws and precedents from court cases, I was ready. And they had 25 people to convince those he needed to go somewhere else. And when we stood our ground, but I the first notice of recommended placements that the reason was because the parents demanded it. So I knew we weren't off to a great start. And that's why that became like a full time job. And really, it's not Sean's not that hard. The job was fighting to get his needs met, but not not Henley's. Easy.
Where did they want? Where do they want to send him? Well, they,
of course, in Pennsylvania, we have intermediate unit. So they had rooms for categories of disabilities. So he was going to be in the nonverbals communication, which I went and looked at. And I just said to them, like, so I literally asked them, I said, So you want us to serve them out of our community into a class with kids that don't communicate to learn to communicate? And I didn't have an answer. I just I got I did get snarky overtime, because it just seemed like all this is ridiculous. Some of it.
Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. So
excited to is that sign. I know one of the questions I'm probably jumping around, but around, Sean went through all of his education was exposed to all the things that everybody else is exposed to he read Catcher in the Rye, and by people who have an oral that I don't know how much he any kids understand that it can help. So we had it in there, he could ask leading questions he could participate in, you know, study the history, the stock markets, you know, most of us don't remember very much of what we learned in school, but he was part of it. And by the time he was in high school, the people that were the best with them were his peers, we had like we did a maps and a path, he a circle of friends, by the time he got into high school, like the kids just took over doing stuff for him. So he, they came to the inclusion specialist. So I'm had somebody that would get the lessons ahead of time, look at the schedule, and then add that put the adaptations or accommodations that he needed. So whoever was working with them knew what his goals were, what it was looked like. And you know, it was just, it became matter of fact, where then teachers didn't even need somebody to help them because they just were like, oh, when we do this, this is what Shawn does. And that's his goal. And this is what it looks like. So but by junior year of high school, his peers just went to that occlusion person. She came in like two half days a week. And they said, Oh, well, we're going to the prom and showing us the doll. And then she told me, I was like, Oh, I wasn't ready for this. I was thinking senior year but they were like the kids to go over and they said we have to go and make sure the building's accessible, we have to make sure that the DJ will play Elvis because that's his favorite movie music. We have to make sure there's food that he can eat and that you know, the aid can come in and you know, and and they worked it all out. Boy, I just said what happens at the prom stays at the prom. He had two dates. We got to let the next smile on when we say it and then the next year he went to this it was just he's going to the prom as as matter of fact now so they just everybody just repeated it and I really don't know exactly what happened but I know he had fun we had a different date that year. And then after that, like the My favorite story about Sean's inclusion is when he was going to high school graduation typical years they would walk in across the football field to their seats and it's Sean usually needs to hold on to someone the wall but for graduation we were trying to help him Lark be able to do as much independently you know, because it was like a proud moment and all that or have a peer help them but he really wanted to walk on his own. So we had they changed the whole graduation. Instead of walking across the field, they walked on the on the, the track where you know, for the running racing, and then that's smooth and it has straight lines now on the on the football field there's it's not smooth and the lines he thinks that their steps so every yard line he would have to stop and you know, on the racetrack he couldn't running track, he could just go straight down. So he walked down the running the running path on his own for graduation in the lineup with everybody else, which was pretty cool, because al but when he was young, one of the reasons they told us, you know, one of many reasons they thought he couldn't be included was they used to use the phrase the graph, the gap is only going to get larger. And so when he's at graduation, he's at a line and he is slower. So there's kids in front of him and they're moving, and there's kids and back home and he's holding them up. And yeah, the gap is getting wider, right at that moment. But the entire stadium is cheering those Shawn goes, Shawn. So at that point, I knew that the path we took was absolutely the right way. Everybody there knew him. It wasn't a problem that there was a space there, he was holding anybody else. And everybody was cheering him on. And I just thought if he wasn't included throughout school with those peers and people, it's me that Doom, nobody ever would have known him like at all. And he wouldn't have had any of those experiences. So but then he went on from getting out. And then the next that day, the the press was there too. And that was this was just this graduation was awesome. The press was there, they took a picture. And and then the next day, it says the headline says, you know students from Palisades graduate, and it's Shawn, then in are getting his diploma. And the article is just about graduation. It doesn't say anything about disability. It was just like this. He's just here and he graduated like everybody else. Everything's normal. Yeah. So I was like, man, we nailed it.
Yeah. Wow. Wow. Because of Sean's experience in school. How did that affect other families who wanted the same thing? I mean, did it I guess, did it affect families that wanted the same thing?
Yeah, we all like, like, I like to tell people is like, if I came to a meeting with another family, then they were like, what? Seesaw in line, we were connected with the legislators and with those people at the state offices, who testified in Congress, we were unresolved, you know, committees in that. So if other families were seeking to get their kids included, and I went to a meeting with them, they then things would happen. But the families that we weren't connected with, they got steered still went to the segregated and sadly, like after, so, I mean, I went through a lot to get Sean included, I was on the Strategic Planning Committee, and I was on all these things and, and like I said, went to Congress and all that, and then suggests he his younger brother comes up a few years later, and there was like, the door shut, I had to start all over. And I thought, like, they, they know, I'm not gonna on persistent, you know, but they still were like, we're not going to do the things he needs. And so I think the door closes behind us really quickly. And that's scary me to do all that work. But I think some of it is because, you know, staff overturns the system just does what the system does. And you know, it's really difficult. I think we can do all this training, and help people and make a difference for one kid. But unless we change the entire system, it's just going to keep going back. Yeah,
yeah. So the parents side cartoons, how many did you? How many did you make
a lot, and they're not even all of those stories. But I'd say what a lot. Most of them are from my x light. I put that on the website, that app, but they were from my real experiences, like one time they were doing, I don't know, if they were doing a field trip to look at the middle school or something. And Shawn's cord for his communication device, I realized it was at home. And I took it down to drop it off in the class, knowing that they were doing this field trip, whatever it was, and, and there Shawn in the room with the aid, and I said, Why isn't he on the trip with everybody else? And then that was one of the answers like that? Well, when we said everyone was going on the trip, we didn't mean Shawn. And that's why do the bus like No Child Left Behind and all that. Like they only did stuff like that once because they knew that it was gonna be on it when they're little. But I had to like literally clarify every everything so that that miscommunication have it and then second grade saw was really at a teacher that was really abusive, and in a somewhat comforting way. She was abuse of the all the kids. That's worked, but she was like hold him down and write these notes. Like, you know, he's physically not able to hold papers. And she say he dropped them. So she had to hold them down on the floor and see, when I finally got through to her one time she said her goal was to prove she wanted him in her class that she could prove that kids with disabilities didn't belong. So that cartoon then like found out later she ended up having a brain tumor. And I didn't know how to draw that in a cartoon. So I drew it like a car X To them I just said one moment, you know, kids don't belong in like class that and the next moment I saw like a car hitting the teacher coming out the door. And then the third panel, I have the hero in a wheelchair saying I have a right to teach I shouldn't be discriminated against, because that's literally what happened. So my cartoons are not like something like this, like fantasize it it's like based on something that
happened. Oh, my goodness,
it helps me see like the whole picture like this then because like, like even now like, I'm like throwing words at you. And I know I talk fast and stuff. But like, if I put it in a picture, I really capture it. I think that helps people understand it easier.
Do you? So do you have all the You said you don't have all the the cartoons on the website? Or? Or do you
know I have the parents side site, I have a lot on there. And I have like once I let people thought I probably just gonna end up just that I don't make any money at all zero. So I don't even know what I'm gonna do with them. I just thought like, it was a release. And then people said, put it on the store. And sometimes people buy a couple things I might make $1 or something like that. So I'm not sure what I even have ones that I started sketching and like filing cabinet and things like that, because it's just when I get upset or mad, that's how
i Here we go. Okay. Yes. So
the parents live.com. And I go under it. That's the controversy. Oh, I'm sorry.
Let me just look here. We'll definitely put all this stuff in the in the show notes. And the Oh, so this is Israel designs.
Yeah, I think you'll see under the IP one online store. So even like the one I have, like the steps going up, it says welcome all kids, their schools, the profit that are like that, you know, and you're just like, hello.
I know, right.
But I also worked for Arcadia inclusion Institute for five years doing this with the teams of teachers and district administration. And we would, they would come to the Summer Institute at the University. And then we would planning and help them with a mission for inclusion. And then they would have like themes and go back. And I would read their journals. And we would have presenters and so I not a lot of there the teacher administrator perspective, like they kind of get where they're coming from, and they're not all evil. They're all you know, they're like, stuck in this system till and then, you know, and then that did include me from the start, which then I work directly with kids in the classroom and the teams and the parents, you know, and I, I really think that 90% of the issue is miscommunication. People don't really say what they mean, and they don't hear in they don't listen to each other. And I think that that is part of it is resolvable, but a lot of it is still systemic, we had we shouldn't have special education should just be general end. And then special education is an add on, it shouldn't be a separate, like, you should be in general ed and he gets special ed services here like nobody's a special ed student, everybody is just a stone.
Yeah. Okay, so a couple things that that popped up, include me from the start. So are you? How are you involved with include me from the start?
I was just I was a coordinator for Okay, for like four or five, six years, I don't remember anymore. But then, you know, everything happened and like kinda, my younger son had a lot of behavioral issues. So I find it, but that that that go back on the back burner.
And then, okay, and then we'll not forget that second part. I think it was what were we just talking about? Before that you were talking about? Hold on, it's gonna come to me. Oh, general ed, and special ed being okay, in misunderstandings. So, I was just on this panel, I was just on this panel at Georgia State University. And there was a director of special education on the panel. And something she said was, like, exactly that, like the understanding that services are portable, and that there's really only one kind of student and it's like, it's amazing how many people don't understand that that are in that role. Right. Right. Yeah. So like, where's the breakdown and miscommunication? Because you like if you read the law, and I know you read I know you you've read the law right? I mean, it says it in the law. Yes. So where is the breakdown for people? Because like you said, I don't think I don't think there's the majority of people in school districts come to work thinking they're you know, they're not feel like okay, we're going to exclude kids today you know, that's not their that's not their mindset
don't even know they can ask Huh. And then I had a scenario where I helped the teacher and, and I did a video for their school, I'm not at liberty to, you know, whatever. But so I helped this teacher, I did a video of how great I came in and helped her with this little girl. And here's suggestions to help her be included more successfully. And she just never did. She just embedded them in the class, and they help everybody. So I made a video of it because I was like this, like, this teacher is awesome. She implemented this kid is happy, everybody's happy. What a great thing. And we showed that to the school that like, oh, you know, assemble yours, or whatever, a work meeting, whatever. And after that, she came to me and said, I really wish you would disown that because the rest of the staff were now mad at her for they thought it was going to increase the expectations. I was like, kind of floored by that.
But
they don't know. But then they also the culture is this is what we do. Right now, I guess maybe there aren't taught it and then in college or when they're getting their degrees. And so then they get in, but even those that have this, they come into it, and they seem like they're gonna be inclusive and real, you know, diverse, they get into that culture and they they just can't change. It changes them.
Yeah, it's really Yeah, it's really hard. It's hard. I went to work for my teacher training, I went to a very inclusively minded program. And so when I got into education, and I got my first job, I was very surprised at how not inclusive the school district was. And it and you know, when I first started, I was I was skeptical that inclusion worked. But it wasn't until I saw it work that I was like, Oh, of course it works. And then then I was able to, you know, advocate for my students and stuff like that going through my career. But even when people saw it work, even with my students that didn't necessarily convince them. Right, you know, so So I don't know it really? Well. You said it. You said it before about the about the system needing to change?
Yeah, yeah, I think so teachers don't, I used to have. So we had a vision statement for Sean. And we read at the beginning the same thing, it would change as he got older at the beginning of every IEP meeting. So if you're gonna suggest something that doesn't lead to something as vision, we're not doing it, you're not pulling them out to teach them soccer from reading, because soccer players not in this visit. That's like, I would literally say this. So we just got them on board. But they were always afraid to speak up, I had to say like, like that. So I would I would ask like, you know, can we do this? And they were afraid to speak up? So I'd have to say like, what is it that you need? Like, do you do not know how to implement his AAC in the class? Do you need somebody else because it's too much work, I would just like break it down. They were intimidated to say that they couldn't, that they weren't the teachers that knew everything. And I was like, you know, so either, like, you know, you have to admit that you need help, or support or technology or whatever it is you need, and then get that to make it successful, you know, or you're just gonna be harming the student, once you got into teaching to teach STEM me so like, you know, like, you can't, you can't be like this really good teacher that doesn't speak up. When you need help, then I think you're in the wrong field. I would just say that at the meetings, I usually got him to speak up, because that's that one got a lot of services in there. I was like, you know, if you don't know how to do it, that's fine. I'm not looking at you as as a lesser teacher or professional. Because Sean's complicated. I mean, know who's going to understand his adapted sign language and all the things that he needs in his technology. I don't expect anybody to, but I do expect you to give it an effort and to figure it out in the ask for the help. So I would kind of like I was really persistent. But I don't think a lot of people will do that.
Well, I guess that was one of my questions is that I think you found success, doing and advocating the way that the way that you did, right, but not everyone is able to, for whatever reason, advocate like you. So I wonder if that's the reason why people even though they may have a vision for their child to be included, that they're not as successful,
I will say and I've said this at trainings, because I'll go out on all say that fighting for Shawn to be including and advocating for him was literally one of the most difficult things I've done in my life. And like I'll say it a million times. It's not about him. It's the people that look at him as lesser and are willing to support him or even be abusive or whatever. Like all that is heart wrenching. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of barriers. But for me, I had the skills, the training, the emotional stability, whatever all that to be able to Keep coming back. And a lot of people don't have that. I mean, I had, you know, support people like I had a tribe, I call it my other families from partners and policy. I had, you know, just a lot of things, a lot of family support. And but you know, but again, in my case, it was worth it. And I will do it again, because the outcomes were beyond incredible.
So let's talk a little bit more about outcomes. So Shawn, is that out of school now? What is he doing right now?
Well, he left graduation. And that was also big bite. But then he went on, he did four years of working on his IEP goals at Lehigh University. And he literally said on his communication device, when we were having a meeting, I Go Lehigh, and was like, Mongolia. Yes. So I said, well, then we're gonna figure that out. And the school district wanted him to leave and again, go to an IU class, to learn like filing or something. And I had to be like, he's been included his whole life. And, you know, it's like, we don't back down and you want me to put them on a bus to another community an hour away to learn something that's not, you know, and so what we did was we went to Lehigh University and talked to some of the staff there, they, at that time had, like a program that supported teachers learning about an inclusive education, and that, and they were willing to create a program for Shawn to audit the classes and work on his IEP goals on campus. So we he did that for four years. So he just went to college like everybody else. I mean, he didn't go to get the credits and all that, but he had that experience. So that was really awesome. And then after that, while there was we couldn't get him in a waiver. So there was no services, then then I was like, I'll be damned if I'm going through all this, and he's gonna sit at home, you know, so. So then I said, go to the state and the county and up the chain and argue with everybody, I could not get him in the consolidated waiver, which is the waiver he's technically should have been in. But we found a way to get him in what was at that time called the independence waiver. It was really for people who are physically so I was like, well just play the game, we just made his physical needs the priority. And, you know, because you can't, like I always said, when somebody is nonverbal, you don't know you, you can't use a standardized test, and you don't know what they know, or what they're not able to respond to or say or what they don't have vocabulary for. So I can always argue his physical needs are our first so we ended up getting them in that independence waiver. But that took some time. I just remember one time, they wanted to get them in like a personal waiver, they suggested like 30,000 a year or something like that. And, again, I'm snarky. I'm just like, oh, sign them up for abuse, because when we're gonna get from 30,000 a year, like give her die away, now he has this news in the community health waiver, they changed into that. And so he has 23 hours of or no 28 hours of employment and community based sorry, but it turned these alerts off. We'll see if I can make that stop. Oh, that I Okay. If I lost if I know, I'm here. So. So now he has 28 hours of home and community, home and community as community and employment. So he is working part time at a law firm. And so he goes two hours a week, and he has does have an aide that supports them. He's able to do much of the job independently, and they pay him like $9 an hour in Yeah, it's only two hours a week. But he's got a paycheck. He has he talks about working, he gets dressed up. He's got a desk, whatever, you know, he was doing volunteering at the library, but COVID kind of stop that for everybody. But he's like a superstar at the library. And he goes in there, he just felt like this birthday card with like 50 million signatures, everybody was wishing him a happy birthday. So he goes in there. And he's like the guru of all the DVDs and stuff and everybody seems to know Him. And any also he goes to good. shepper has a it's a rehab center, but they have like an adaptive gym, I would like to work on getting all the YMCA is accessible equipment, but that's a whole nother. But you can go there and they have like, no powers this blank kicked in us. And then you can adjust the like when you're doing little arm lifts, and that you could adjust it for your limited range of motion and things like that. And so he goes there twice a week. And then he just tells the A he just gets on as the license says, you know, I want to go shopping, I want to do whatever. So he's, I tell people when they need them. I'm like, he's the ball. He's in charge of his care. And he's in charge of what he doing. And then so if they like laugh at that or small, then it's like, you know, okay, well then this is not a person that I want working with. Like they have to understand that so he is really good at right now. We are fortunate because what the shortage is, I know we're not able to get home care because nobody's willing to do that. We have hours allocated but we can't get that and we had like, you know, really that somebody almost killed them and stuff. So I'm really leery about the people the quality of the people that Do home care that terrifies me as, like, what's gonna happen when we're not around? And like for his personal care? Or just not really?
Yeah, yeah. Well thinking about our audience, which is mostly educators, one thing that you want them to know, like from leaving this conversation,
okay, so that I was thinking about this last night, I think a big barrier is that everyone doesn't define inclusion in the same. So like when like, if people think well, inclusion is there in that they're in the room, and we tried it, it's not working, you know, and, and in my bowl, this is my opinion, inclusion is, is only something to achieve. It's not like something that's that's not a moment. It's, it's this idea, to me, it's something it's not something that doesn't work, or work, that doesn't work. It's only achieved when the student is in the class, when they're an active participant, when they have a sense of belonging when they're getting the sports and services they need. And they're working on their individual goals. And they're in the places and what the peers that would be if they didn't have a disability. Now, that's a whole big mouthful to say, but, but I'm like that is inclusion. And we kind of just I think we The term is also hijacked. So now, when you say inclusion, nobody thinks of all those conditions. I think, our inclusion, and I don't know, somehow we have to change our language because the word inclusion is hijack people in segregated settings use the word inclusion they use, well, kids are included. And they're No they're not. But they say that, you know, they, and they say, well, they take them out with community or something. And, or they say they have a quality of life. So all of the terms that we use, I think they're being hijacked, and also in politics, too, like inclusion is like now like a red flag for some people that are like political zealots. And that so I think we got to get away from the terms and really just describe, you know, what it is, what are we looking for? What is the goal? We want kids in there? We want them successful? This is what success looks like. Yeah, I
like that a lot.
I think that this that the terms are hijack. I just, I mean, I was like on this group. And you know, they're they were fighting for Pennsylvania, we still have some institutions open. And the one mom is like saying like what we say about inclusion for the institution like Woodhaven, like what are you going? Because they have they're involved? And they, they they have a community? And they're included? And I'm like, no.
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that idea. I don't know if I've heard put quite that way. That it's not a thing that is either you, you can do it right or wrong. It's just that you've met conditions. Yeah,
that's all. Yeah, I like that. Not people. Like, I'll say, like, I'm gonna tell you my definition of inclusion. And this is the only right one whether you agree or not. So just to get like, if I'm presenting to teachers, I'm like, you have to have a common understanding on what it means. You're here with me or not, but I was just like, trying to say this, you know, you have
Well, no, I think that I think you do need a common understanding of what it is because well, and when we're working with school districts, that's one of the first things we do is we we talk we have a shared and it's we call it a shared understanding of inclusive practices, because, you know, if they, if someone thinks that you can be included and still have segregated settings, or like it's okay, like we're just gonna have these segregated settings and if someone in a family can choose that, and that's okay, you know, and that's inclusion. That's not what we mean.
Right? Yeah. Choice says like guys like you know, all that's
right, a choice but it's not really a choice.
Like, well, here's where I made and they said, that tells we saw a lot like, if you go here, he's gonna get the therapy needs he's gonna get you know, the strategies and all that and I'm like, Great write them all down. Bring them over here where he's gonna school.
Yeah, yeah.
I never had to go to due process. I literally just talk from this to
that is interesting.
He was song was the first was his mountain that needs to be included in our school district, and they really did not want him and Can
I ask what school district Palisades Palisades okay. Yeah,
yeah. And I got one of the questions you asked was about why I thought inclusion was so important. Yeah.
Yeah. Why is inclusive education is important to you. Yeah.
And I was I wanted to bring that around that I beyond like, you know, quality of life and being that I think it's a civil rights issue first. I mean, like Who wants to just be excluded? Because there's something innate, love who you are, or let you know. And I just think that when kids are included, then it's it's showing everybody that everybody is valued and as equal worth, and that, you know, that, that, that they have a right to have their needs met just like anyone else. And, you know, and I just grew up with that, like, with my family, like civil rights are really important. So I just think that, you know, you're denying someone there, the right, and when they're excluded, then they have Hi, I know for a fact they have higher expectations. Like, the thing is, when Sean was the we're like, trying to get him to do like, Goofy, stupid things. And I feel like, you know, when he was in class, when he was in, like they, when he was in that preschool on that, then they would want it they wanted to it was like I said it was kind of inclusive, but it had, it was reversed mainstreaming. So someone wanted to learn his letters, like he was taking champ letters out of a cannon holding them up, like p and then putting with the personnel that he was like three or four was really young doing that. Nobody ever his whole life really worked on reading them. He just learned it himself, really. But anyway, he was doing that. And they said though, we we can't start doing letters, because the rest of the class isn't there. And I always remember that, like so if you're in the regular class, I don't think they're gonna say like, Donny can't learn about this, because everybody else isn't caught up on though. But it was like, you know, I just know that the expectations are a lot higher. And he could do whatever level anybody can do whatever they can do in a regular class. And like that whole thing with there's no harm. And so so if Shawn was exposed to learning about the stock market, or learning about Egypt than that, and you're not sure what he gets, like, what's the harm? Like there is no harm, but if he never got to sit with his peers, and ask questions and participate, and was always excluded, there is great harm, who wants to have that claim to life, and then when you leave school, like now he's like, like I said, he goes, the library, people know what people come up to him, I don't even know who they are. And they say hi to them, and they leave and I like that was, you know, he, but nobody would know if he was had not been included. And, you know, and, and those peers that knew him now are, you know, running their own businesses and doing you know, becoming doctors and all that and more more accepting of people with disabilities in their life, because they can shine. They all know what a communication device is. They all know, you know how to assist somebody or how to be respectful. They know that because they grew up knowing Shawn and you know, that wouldn't happen. So that's why I think inclusion is is just so very, it's important, not just the people, kids with disabilities, but to everybody to society. Because a student when Sean was in the classroom, why was said he's like he was the gauge of that teachers, if they were able to successfully include Shar good teaching is good teaching, then they were teaching all the kids well, and you know, I just thought, you know, you're doing it, you're a good teacher, because like, on any given day, there's going to be a kid that doesn't get a lesson doesn't think that way, you know, is sick or has a has a broken arm or there's always going to be something where not every kid can do a lesson the way you prepared it. And if you're prepared to adapt that for whatever comes because of one student in your room with an E then you're prepared for all students. That's the way I see it.
Colleen Tomko, thank you so much for spending some time with us. We really appreciate it You're welcome.
Thank inclusive is written edited in Sound Design by Tim Vegas and is a production of MCIE Original Music by miles credit. Attention school leaders. Did you know that you can team up with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education to promote inclusive practices in your school or district regardless of your location. MCIE has partners in Maryland, Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and more. Joining us in this work. Our goal is to expand partnerships in every state in the US and beyond. The first step is to start a conversation with us, visit our contact page at mcie.org/contact. And let us know that you want to transform your educational services to be inclusive of all learners. Also, please mention thinking inclusive and your message to let us know how you found out about MCIE We can't wait to hear from you. A special thanks to our patrons Melissa H joiner II Pamela P. Mark C Kathy B Kathleen T charity Gabi M. Aaron P. Paula Wu and Carol Q for their support of thinking cluesive Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works
