'Hong Kong and the story of our time' | RISJ seminar with Ronson Chan, Chair, Hong Kong Journalists Association

11:30AM Jun 15, 2022

Speakers:

Meera Selva

Caithlin Mercer

Keywords:

journalists

hong kong

news

media

cover

easy

journalism

question

police

legislative council

people

election

independent media

honestly

democracy

journalist

political

years

report

labor union

Hello, and welcome to the Reuters Institute for the Study of journalism global journalism seminar series. This is the last seminar of the academic year of Trinity term, and also my last seminar I, after five years at the Reuters Institute. I'm moving on to be CEO of Indonesia, Europe. And this is a very poignant day for me. It's also my last day at the Institute and it feels very important that we talk about the issues that really matter in London. In London, our colleagues are launching the digital news report that looks at the future of journalism worldwide. And here we have Bronson Chan, the outgoing chairman of the Hong Kong Journalists Association and also deputy assignment editor at Channel C. Until this February, he was also former deputy assignment editor at Stan news, an independent pro democracy outlet that was shuttered last year after a raid on its officers and on nonsense home under Hong Kong's National Security Law. Most of you may well recognize him Ronson was live streaming, anti government protests that took place in the summer in 2019. And there was a famous image of him being overwhelmed by tear gas canister that had been locked by riot police at journalists and civilians. This is a moment in time when Hong Kong's journalism and media outlets are under incredible pressure. And in many ways, it reflects the pressure that's felt by journalists all around the world. It's a really crucial moment to talk about journalism, and it's really important that these voices of the journalists on the front line are heard. So I'm very, very pleased to be having this conversation today. I mean, just to give some context, the national security law was enacted in June 2020. And we've also seen in Hong Kong a renewed use of sedition law that was passed in the 1970s. And both these laws in tandem have been used to really put pressure on civil society groups as well as as well as journalists. The number of impressive journalists worldwide hit a record high of 293 last year, and more than a quarter of them are in China alone. Among the 50 journalists in prison in China are Helen L. Johnson's former colleague and Jimmy Lai, the founder of the now shuttered newspaper daily. Like I said, press freedom is a perfect topic for my final global journalism seminar because I can't tell you how hard it is to build a functioning media ecosystem. And what it calculable asset is once you have one, it's the foundation on which everything grows that sense of community democracy, economic security, human rights, culture, identity once you have it, dismantling it is an act of utter folly. And I really want to kind of highlight that because it's so vital that we kind of make this message known. But in the meantime, Ronson, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you. Meera, thank you for your invitation.

Thank you. Please tell me where you are. There's a lot of activity all around you. So yes,

I'm in the office of my working Price Channel. See again, it is a on a news website. And we have a Facebook page we have a YouTube channel. We have around 20 Donaldsons subscribe subscribers in YouTube, for example, saying that we have just I've only less than 20 staff so you can I show you around? This is the office Okay? A little room with we have several little into two apartment flat we have several glass wall rooms. Okay. And in that at that moment that we have around 10 more staff. Okay. But, you know, Hong Kong journalists are always working relationship so we are still my colleagues are hardly working, not working now. At least for me, I'm just doing my own on road as a as a as in this seminar.

Thank you. Well, thank you very much for staying so late. Because it is about eight o'clock there. Yes, yes. I'm asking you these questions I want to ask you about channels see and how you find doing journalism because I want to kind of give a sense of what is happening to journalists out there because there is still a lot of journalism that is being created lot of content. That is being created. And the last

one, in now we are importing channels the most of them are coming from the coast. Media Apple Daily. Just now we are subsidised from the property and and some balls but they have less political background, just a common motions on in Hong Kong. We just focus on some City News, for example, crime news and attainments falls on this theory. We do we are we are doing less sensitive news. For example, Politico and some news about the court case or the National Security No. But I think that it is not, we cannot easily conclude this self censorship because the staff in here the and the management here, think that political news have less interest to the public. That because you know the political system has been changed, and political news have less interest and they people are not, not not really want to read more more news on political issues. So we are trying to focus on other topics. But we have a quite quite good growth on our readers. of Facebook and YouTube. For me, you know, you have a for your introduction that I'm good at doing News Live Stream, okay. And before I joined the here and when Oh, when I work in Stan news that I always cover the news and and what happened on the street for example, demonstration the body or the the the kiosks or on the street. I don't know. I mean, right. Maybe the riots on the streets. But today for example, I met News Live Stream yesterday covering a new new nice show laundry not not not launched launched in Disney Disney World Disneyland well. For example, in the morning, yesterday morning, I confer news about a sea restaurant a jumbo have to leave to Hong Kong after

seafood. I read that from Singapore. You know you don't know it from Singapore as well.

Yes, it is a Cantonese Kennedy's popular food seafood way that making a shape on the sea and have a seafood but after the pandemic and and the crackdown of the economy that that This restaurant has to be closed for around two years and until yesterday that they do they plan to leave Hong Kong and I make things live about it. So you is a quite a big difference. Between my work from from the past days. The past few weeks and today but fortunately I'm still doing something that Hong Kong people are interest. They are keen to concern. I can just say that. It is not easy for for me to to to be I mean that it's not easy for me to take good way to work but I just just I think it is the most comfortable most safety way for me to continue my life as a journalist.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I completely understand that. So tell me a little bit about I'm interested about this idea of the relationship you have with your audience because as you said, this is what you your editors and management have felt that audiences that are interested and practical issues of city life, who are your subscribers and do you get kind of a feedback from them over what kind of things they they like they want from you? Well,

honestly the subscribers are mainly the readers from the late Paul Daily News. They hope to you know Abu Dhabi Is there news and citizen news have been closed but they they hope to gather information or hope to love the style of our news reporting way so they they are waiting for this kind of the media to coming back and and today that some of course, you know, I put the D is it back. Merge is a great company that they have many, many staff around 1000 So many of some of them have formed or established different kinds of small news webpage or small news agency to cover and different kinds of news, some of them covering the editing menu, some of them making a new website covering the economy news, some of them make a new page to cover. Feature news Okay, so um for from for me, I think that they have stuff they have they still have some choices to get back to the Apple Daily side or in today's Facebook page or news website. But of course that the core part of the echo daily means the local news political news caught news that there's no more coverage on on on on that in this moment. So and feedback Yes. In the in the new slides. We are mostly using YouTube and we can you see to get the comments from the from the YouTube I still seeing that the support from A to me and channel see. Okay, thank you. I

mean, you mentioned Apple Daily style a few times now and I think it's worth talking a bit about this. Do you want to talk a little bit what you mean by Apple Daily style because, again, we talked about getting young people interested in the news the world over and Apple Daily absolutely nailed it. Not just with the content but with its presentation

Yes, I don't know how to translate it but maybe you can understood understand it as a movement news okay. They move themes Okay. At home wolf news, okay. So, it easily say that we use video cribs and very relaxing style and sometimes they making jokes or sometimes singing this content to to present the news content. Okay, for example, today that some news saying that report, I will run the next time Presidency of the SKA and they make a new saying that oh, we are in Gen Z and rasa is our our call this but we never know it about about its decision. To go to go on the next election. So we have to think about what is our relations between US and Iran. Okay, this is a style that making it very relaxing and simple and and funny. Okay, so in the attract some, some some attention.

So in a way what's really noticeable here is the there's kind of a section of Hong Kong media. This has created a relationship with his audience that's related to tone and style, as much as to content and then taking the tone and style and applying it to other content and and trying to keep the relationship going in the hope that eventually the content can expand as well.

Yes, that's good. That's really what really happened that they we honestly, the way for reporting is more important than the content for the reporting. But you know, if you have some balance, okay, that of course, the tongue may be needed in a relaxing mode, but we are still we're still a holding a very high standard of making news for example, we still have to have a balance reporting we still have needed to get a reply from the from the from the people and and we are seeking a very high accuracy of the report. So So I think this is a good balance until now.

Okay, thank you. I have a I have a question from the audience. Actually, that's related to this and I'm going to put it to you if this guy is someone who's anonymous but saying, Can you elaborate why you think there's less demand for political Museum in Hong Kong? Is it less demand for local sources with Hong Kong is consuming political news from foreign media? Or is it no interest at all? And how much do you think Hong Kong has now trust local news coverage of political matters?

Honestly, the volatile news in Hong Kong were mainly come from to source first is first. The first one is the first one was logical Council, legit Legislative Council and the legislative legislators from the Democratic can when they have a so phone numbers people in in the in the in the Legislative Council, when they have critic size and make some recent critics of critical realism against the government or make some movement for example, the occupation movement or or the anti extradition movement. So this is one of the source of what had happened to the furlough coastal community and the other one is the local comm community come local community organization. For example, the teacher union the labor union from the credit cams. So but this to kind of the of the source that people have been almost disappear within this year. Okay, most of the, you know, the Legislative Council have a new election and the method for electing them have been changed most of them I can say 99% of the Legislative Council members are coming from the Beijing pen probation cans. The community the local Safer Community labor unit, the neighbor union, teacher unions from the cams have been a disband. And they some of them the leaders have been charged it and still remained. So you know, if we talking about if we saying that they ran half of the Hong Kong people are interested in their democratic ideas and the Democrats standings, then today, they will lost all their they lost all their support thing. Power the loss of support and power from debt. So they it makes them and the main main stream of this of this of the of this Ken's readers, they were already readers just say that they they were interested in the Apple Daily stand new style, so they have less interest on today's political situation.

How has the government have How have the local media covered the chief executives election for example that oh, they just been very strict working or ignoring it?

No, no. I will say I always said the Hong Kong has to start to two main types of media. First type is that they are easily punch they they are still professional, but they they will listen orders okay. They will accept that there or they will they will try to they were they were they were they will support the government in Beijing. They were put on probation cams and and the ECD to to listen the instructions okay from the liaison office. Okay. And these most of these media were the mainstream media, okay for this kind of media, they will prefer the stock, the CD election. We can see the changes. For example, they when they were writing the articles or the reports they were in a more sensational mode for us to report the news, for example, saying that Johnny are very hard to work for the for seeking support from the from the electoral Election Division committee members and saying that he is well accepted behind by the Electoral National Committee members, okay. And all this media they were not easy to listen. The instructions from the liaison office they were not easily to they were relatively independent. Okay. They still have some cover about the see election but not many, because most of the news scenes of this simulation, they they own the How can I explain they were organized by the election office from from Gianni most often relatively independent media were not welcome to to go to such thing event. So and they are excluded from the press conferences. Yes, excluded from the from the mainstream media. So the situation is like that.

Thank you. Can I talk a little bit about the Hong Kong Journalists Association which has played a significant role in the last few years both as a source of support and contention in this space and how useful and important has it been for journalists to kind of have this community as, as as the media houses themselves of fracturing?

What Journalists Association has a long history and race established in 1968. And honestly, before before this happened, yours is still a most the most powerful journalists labor union in Hong Kong. Before these haven't years, we I will say we have a good talk and communication with government and police. So you can imagine in the in the 2019 and 2020 to 2021. Were there as many many things happen on the street. So we have to, we have to have to conduct a good communication with the authority and the police to to Seeking Report reporting right on the street. Of course, in some in many scenarios that the police have a many quarrels with the journalists and even we have been treated unfairly or being treated brutally by the police. But we still have some I will say we are still have some have a good position to negotiate with with police and authority.

That how you maintain that position.

Um, pardon?

How come you still have a good position to negotiate, given everything else

honestly some? Because we are we have to, we have the the largest number of the members in office journalist in Hong Kong we have in Addis in in 2018. We have more than 800 members for today we have only 400 more. This is the first one the second one is because we have a communication and when I say system, but that communication channel in the past years in the past many years in the past years, so these channels still work. Okay, for example in that introduction, it at least we can get the details from the channel on this but maybe arrested or detained by police or industry we can get the details from it. Okay, we can know that where they were detained. We can know. We can say that we are trying to find a lawyer to assist the arrest of journalists, etc. But after this in this the past six months that we feel that the authority including the police have lesser NASA motivation to communicate with us and and we understood is it related to the probation cams attack on ja is related to the provision can criticize against ja and we are I will say investigated by the LTU that it is the registry of the labor union. We have some inquiries from them and saying that they are investigating a case for us and saying that if we try to ask us some questions, otherwise they will find we are we have committed any illegality a record rate era guarantee of the labor union law. So, I think that the relationship between us and the government departments and the police have been changed within this half a year.

Okay. And then you're still standing for election for the next term.

Yes, because honestly, I don't I think that the reason for me is still still consistent. Okay. There's the risk for the next for the for the last years is same for the rich in the forthcoming year, one year. And honestly the second reason is, there is no person no people trying to take up this this position. So and honestly and this is my view, okay. As I promised, the proper okay that we are trying to, to stand until the last moment and until now this is not the last moment so I think that I still have a responsibility to stand here.

That's the advocate that's gonna pause on that. This is not the last moment Tell me more. What's what's what's the head fight.

Oh, good questions. I still think that we the Hong Kong is Hong Kong data journalists, okay. Although the political environment is not ideal, but there are also the the the political situation is not ideal. We still have have many city leaders have to call for. Maybe I'm too naive or too childish, but I still think that if Okay, today we are not easy to talk about. The system, you know, easy to talk about democracy. But the purpose for for promoting democracy is is to improve the life of the citizen. So okay, we don't think about system we don't talking about democracy with recipes talking about how to improve our city. For example, that I went to work in the channel see that I've experienced the most popular life that we are. We are trying to, to cover the news about a rat house rats house that saying that apartment have money by the grass and the hygiene department is trying to remove it all. Going and we go into the to the door of this of this apartment and and cover the news about how your hygiene department trying to remove the rest. Okay, we've got around 10,000 people to watch the live about this news. So this is the reason that I still think we still have some room to to do to making it to make news or to cover the news that we can have. We are trying to cover the City News and try to promote that how to improve Hong Kong becoming better.

Okay, let me get back to the question. This is related question from Alexei because of the audience, which I'll read it to you. Does the development of new technologies lead to the strengthening of media freedom, or does it create conditions for control and regulation? of the media?

Let me see. Oh, oh can kill a panel? I can't I can't see the so so Bismillah I'm sorry. Would you mind please?

I'll read it again to him. Yes, the development of new technologies lead to the strengthening of media freedom, or does it create conditions for the control and regulation of the media?

Who my own personal experience I think that technology improves and help us most for example, if there is no Facebook Live or live stream techniques that we we are not easy to making news live in, in 2019. And and let the world see what happened in Hong Kong. For the in 2019 instead, news is it's all it's also a relativities in small sized news. What news on our news agency. We have around 12 or 13 people to work. We only have four to five people to to walk on the street and to cover the news on the on the protest. We only have the iPhones or mobile phone which will cover the news. Instead of we have we don't have any camera. We don't have any high tech live stream apparatus, but we can still make the live stream News Live stream by by only using a small mobile phone to send the image out to the world to see what to let the home as well people to see what happened in Hong Kong. So I think is is it helped us very much. But of course that the new technology that makes you leave many footprints on the on the virtual world. So is this easy for you for the law enforcement agency to as search or follow what you have to have you have done so but I don't think that we have to put this these two things these two aspects in a in a contradiction. know yes, it's easy. For example, in the stand news case, we are easily to be we have closed on the day that that the police go into search. And actually we are not we are not we cannot work because they're all all our computers, including the monitors have been collected by the police is meaningless that we we cannot work at at that night actually because if we have 16 staff that 60 staff we cannot get all the computers and the monitors in a very short period actually. So that's why that for my personal analysis, Isaac, I think that the police action was aimed to to make us closed because if they just want to collect the information they don't need to collect all the monitors. Because I've offered 40 monitors. Okay, but but they have not did it in Apple day. So, yes, the discretion is yes, and

it can get since you're getting Blanca and Blanca the attempt the thing of the media.

Yeah. So apologies.

It's just seems to be getting more and more blunt the way you close down media. So it started by using laws to kind of procedure then it's literally taken.

Yesterday get the rorer they are not collecting very important documents or any other thing. They just collect all your keyboard or connect all your monitors. That yes, your chairs. Okay, that's enough. So so simply say simply say that. The question is good in both eyes.

Thank you very much. I'm going to go to the Reuters Institute fellows in the seminar room now. Sorry. And start with Robin to ask a question and I'll read it out if you don't hear it correctly, Ron. Yeah, hi guys, and thanks for joining us. It's a bit noisy. I wouldn't I think a lot of people will be watching or have been watching Hong Kong. Very closely. Because they're seeing kind of similar versions, you know, democratic backsliding happening in their own countries. And I know the situation escalated incredibly quickly. I wondered if you have any advice to journalists? You're covering or you know, approaching potentially the same kind of situation and then covering the same kind of things, as you were in in Hong Kong, anything you might have learned that you can share? So the question is, given your experience in the last two, three years in Hong Kong, what advice would you give to journalists in other countries facing similar circumstances? Oh, so what message maybe if not advice

you mean that the focus on what happened for the National Security Law or a

vision of what happens when the state comes after journalists, both through very repressive laws and through literally taking equipment? Okay, and how do you cope with that? How do you cope mentally as well?

Okay, I understand. I will say that, for me, my personal experience, I spend most the I spend many times many, many, many time sorry. I spend most of time on the street to making news live. I would do the live a very very long the most longest time I'm a kid I made it around eight hours. Until now I still I still see less situation like for example in Ukraine or in Myanmar or in other other other country that is not we cannot see so long, long coverage on long period of live streaming. So this is what I'm I curious is in other countries is not as advanced as Hong Kong, we have a very good network and until everything is free this past three years that the international internet ban is still not happen in Hong Kong. That's good. So we can use things such method to cover the news and let the rest of the world to understand what had happened. From our home. I'm still thinking is it possible for for for the other for the other countries people to repeat such way to for example, making a so long period of long time of live streaming? And honestly, I honestly think it is not, it should not be copying in other countries. Because if you are working in in a country in the in the countries that they have enjoyed it, freedom of press that your your media, the the traditional mainstream media can cover the news that they don't need some like this. The reporters or journalists working in a small news agency tried to just do things I bought out for me to cover what happened because you have mainstream media for example, if you're saying that you are USA that you have CNN, CNBC, they will cover the news stories. But if you work in a in a country so they don't have the Meet the freedom of press, then if you just walk on the street that the police will arrest you. It is not easy for you to to holding a mobile phone to go around on the streets. And you still could do it. Do it do it. For for more than 30 minutes or something. Okay, it's impossible just saying that you are in Myanmar in Thailand, it is not easy for you to making such looking to cover the news in such ways. So it's a good question. For me also, is it the Hong Kong experience in the three years especially the the News Live, live streaming, is it possible to repeat in other countries? I'm still still thinking of this. So it may be a good time for me when I spend half a year in in Oslo to think this question more carefully and more precisely.

Thank you very much. It's a really good point. I should say you'll be joining the Reuters Institute. In the auto parlor over to you.

I wanted to ask you a similar question. History maybe or past, like are you looking at experiences or maybe you have already dug into the experiences of other media or other journalists who have worked in the past and similar conditions, whether to address issues related to security to the censorship or how to keep a home and the circumstances around ways of connecting?

Thanks, Paulo. So the question is, have you are you looking at other journalists and other media outlets for lessons in how to keep it how to keep going in your situation? So it's the other other way around with the first question was, what advice would you give to other people? And this question is really what have you learned? from other organizations or other journalists, especially on the issues of how do you deal with censorship and how do you keep your sense of hope alive? And how do you continue to connect to audiences?

Honestly, we we heard many stories in in in China, when we heard many stories about how the Hong Kong students working in China and we are from from my own opinion, I think it may be a good good, good way for us to to learn about it because we can imagine that Hong Kong situation will will just go like China more and more likely, like in China, for example. We have to wait timing. Okay. I give you an example after the close of the stand news. I don't think the Hong Kong media I for my personal just my personal feeling. I think when when I'm gonna stand use crows. That means in the last this the December, late December of last years, there is less and less of criticism against a golfer man, no matter the government policy, no matter the COVID policy or something. But after two months later, saying that Carrie Lam our chief executive the day that she's not ready to seeking the next term election, and we have an and there are many many cuisines from the pole Beijing camedia of critics eyes Carrie Lam and the quiz on goal more heartening Democrats before even so we can see that oh, the media is was trying to make more and more reports about the criticism against the pandemic or the COVID policy or other policy of the government of the government issue. So I think we have to watch and analysis or even feel, what you should say or what you should not say, Okay, this is not easy, but this is one of the way that we can keep alive, still safety to government media. But of course, I've said before that we have some mainstream media and some vertifx the independent media for the latest one, they some of them will think that it is not easy to compromise all the time and trying to serve senses themselves in it in all in all the ways or something. So you can stills can still watch. You can still read some report from the relatively independent media that they are trying to to I would say, try them to test or not or trying to, to, to stare too high. For example, some news about about the foreign Hong Kong Hong Kong residents assembly for example, some criticism against the government officers or the or the top management, they will try. Okay, and sometimes you can say oh after after this this repost, account calm coming to to the public that we can still see that they are still saved. The No more no arrests against onto them. So, but honestly you cannot easy to get a norms or a set of criteria that what is safety and what is not saved. Okay, so everyone is just trying to do what they what they do and try and what they can. what the risks are, they can they can answer

that goes to the next question back into the room TP i from Finland

being here. As a journalist, it's not the easiest or the safest job in Hong Kong. I was wondering about the journalism students. Are they still people who want to become a journalist and do they know what they're getting into?

Did you Did you hear that question? It's about just very clearly this. Great.

First of all in the most of the Hong Kong journalists, journalism school, there are a PR stream instead of only a news stream okay. For my Allah Mehta, okay to see at university as I have learned, as I've learned that most of the students journalism students are willing to study in PR stream and of course, in some some other schools some other journalism schools there are a few some trim mainly cover the for covering the financial news, okay. And by but the answer is simple that you can see after studying journalism and you after your graduation, you become a journalist, you will have to face to kind of the field to your future have two ways. One if you're working in a mainstream media, you will USA because you will not you have no no more chance to character to to try anything. That will bring any dangerous and you may call it is self censorship, okay? But you it will guarantee your safety. And if you know saying no, I wanted to have a freedom of reporting. So you're trying to work in a relatively independent media and then you will have these two touch the red nine and you will have risk to, to to be charged or getting arrest, then you can imagine as mass and as youngsters are willing to select journalism or to antigens of school. This is what I'm also very concerned and very about because the journalists, journalists, scoop and journalists. The press has need many high quality graduates to continue our work in. Enjoy enjoy this industry. Enjoy this industry. In the past, in the good old days that we can still have so many good academic results the students that it was slack journalism school and they offer their graduation they were to become journalists. But I can we can foresee that less and less. teenager and the youngsters are willing to Slack

Thank you. I mean, this is this is the absolute kind of future of this. I'm going to go back into the room to Louie who is from Brazil, who is kind of

saying hi, thank you so much for the time for letting us do this Hello. When Russell won the Nobel Peace Prize to not only defend this truth in democracy, but she also questioning us, what are we willing to sacrifice in order to get democracy and through to me, how can journalists have already sacrificing too much how do you keep doing journalism despite everything that to face? Against your profession? In Hong Kong?

Did you hear that question?

Very clearly. I get the advice.

Maria Reza. When she won the Nobel Peace Prize this year, she defended truth and democracy and also asked the audience listening around the world. What are you willing to sacrifice to protect democracy? And Louis saying it seems that Hong Kong journalists like yourself and many others in your newsroom have sacrificed too much already? So how do you keep going?

Um, it is not an easy question. For politically, I am a journalist some school graduates i i love to be a journalist when I studied in secondary school, and after my graduation i i becoming I became a journalist for around 17 years. Honestly, I don't know how I have no choice of other jobs that instead of a journalist, I don't have any any other choice honestly. But and also is, is, is about how, how we feel about the journalists about journalists in Hong Kong. As I see simple for me, my ex colleagues in instant news, including two details in Chaves, they still remained and in in the prison and I visited them for twice in a month. When after you have with them, you know that maybe the situation is not easy for yourself. You may understand you have money that you have to have dangerous or sometimes you may have to sacrifice something but you have to work for them. You know, that they have paid, they have paid for their their sacrifice for their freedom and you think that you should have to still go on trying to do something for them to to continue doing what the Hong Kong journalists have done for. For the past century. However, last however, long history on freedom of press and freedom of speech, even in in in the last century, the Qing Dynasty have not been at Hong Kong as a British colony colony that it is accidentially we have joy, of freedom of speech and freedom of pets in for around more than 100 years. In my view, 40s and cheese that the CCP and KMT the Chinese Communist Party and the commandant they have their own media organization in Hong Kong and trying to win to win the support from the Hong Kong people. By by the by their own a media. So we never we never experienced that. We should not report someone's speech, we should not report someone and we should not interview anyone because of his own identity. Okay, we can, we can interview everyone because we wrote everything and the political background media just trying to get the support from the Hong Kong people of support from the from the the whole Chinese were Oh, by their own newspaper or media. But today that you will be told that somebody should not be interview somebody speech that used to not be covered because he or she is the criminal. Regarded by the by the by the by the regarding by the by the by the accusation from Beijing. You know what I mean? I hope that I'm sorry today my my English is so poor I hope that you guys understand what so you have you have you have to work for the people have been sacrifice

and also into the other point is we love Hong Kong we can say we have enjoy the freedom where we will ask more we have experience. We have watched what Hong Kong has been in the past in the past two days. So it is not not good for me that okay, well, maybe the cause to hide and I go away. I never been a journalist anymore. I don't think so. That's that's me. So I'm trying to think any other ways that we can do? Maybe we have today we sacrificed that we withdraw from the political news withdraw from the police news, but we are still Concentrate, concentrate on the cities news on the sports news. Okay, suppose this will be useful also, because there's still some sandesh policies, policies, that government have to be improved, that we still have our role to speak out.

That's, I think, run through this beautiful answer to end it just sounds like the carrier's after we keep going because we don't know what else to do. With. So true is off so many journalists all around the world. Literally, sometimes there are no other career options, but often very often far. We we've kind of want to carry on telling stories who want to carry on reporting and don't really know how to stop. So finding ways

not actually some of my good old friends and intermediate they will try to another path in the PR PR of PR industry. But for me I'm not easy. To change

our I think, please don't change. Thank you so much for your time. It's been late. I know. We've been much and we will hear more from you and all the best to you and your colleagues now as well. Thank you

This is my last seminars on going to my last seminar at the institute. But I also want to say thank you to Caitlin who's very conveniently standing up who has been the kind of producer brains behind this entire seminar series for this last year as well and everything that you've seen has been through her energy. So thank you, Caitlin.

Just along the lines of expressing gratitude. We want to not only express our gratitude to Rumson and the Hong Kong journalists to continue to do this work, but to you mirror for introducing this format, the global journalism seminars that brings together journalists from around the world to learn from each other and be inspired and thank you for not only in this format, but throughout the fellowship holding journalists up when they are down. It's an inspiring thing that you do and we will we are committed to continuing this legacy and thank you.

Thank you