Licensed Counselors and the Court System: Demystifying the Experience

1:57PM Apr 7, 2023

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Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Welcome everyone to the thoughtful counselor podcast. My name is Dr. Stacy SpeedLink Gonzales, I am your facilitator for today. And we are going to be talking with a legal panel of judges. Mostly from the bear county area that San Antonio, Texas. We're very, very fortunate to have them with us and I'm going to start with Judge Rosie spielen Gonzalez, have you please introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about you, your court and briefly about your experience.

Again, my name is Judge Rosie SpeedLink Gonzales and I'm in my fifth year of sitting on the bench I preside over bear County Court at law number 13, which is one of two misdemeanor level courts and bear county that handled exclusively family violence and domestic violence cases. The other court I preside over is a court of first impression. It's a specialty court called the flow court. And it is open for first time offenders of family violence, who have a substance abuse issue. We are a trauma based intensive outpatient program for these first time offenders. We get them sober, we get their trauma healed, we get them a job and we get them housed and once they complete the program, their case is not only dismissed, it is also expunged at no cost to them.

Thank you Judge Gonzales and thank you for coming. Next time I'm going to turn to judge tortoise, can you please tell us about yourself same questions.

Thank you so much. My name is Judge Tina Torres and I preside over the 407 District Court in bear County. So I am a District Court bench that does a lot of family law. We do business litigation, personal injury, all types of civil cases. But I could say that the majority of our docket is related to family law matters. So we do utilize counselors quite a bit and I'm looking forward to talking more about that utilization. I've been on the bench now I think this is my third year I went to law school with Judge Hopp, who's here with us today. And I've been a longtime friend of Judge Gonzalez. So I'm super excited to be on the podcast. I practiced for 24 years, I believe before I got on the bench. So and I did a lot of family law. So I utilized counselors in my practice as well. And, and do understand the importance in the vital role role that counselors play in the litigation process. Thank you for

that. And last but not least, I'm going to turn to judge Milan.

Okay, but good afternoon, everyone. I am just Shalonda hub, I preside over County Court 12 is a criminal misdemeanor bench. And I also preside over the mental health court for bear County. I was a practicing defense attorney for about 22 years before I took the bench and 2018. I did a lot of work in the specialty courts. That's what the mental health court is a specialty treatment court. So when I took the bench that's the court that I went for had the mental health court which the treatment specialty court. So I stepped into that court knowing that I really wanted to do that I saw a lot of improvements at that mental health court could be improved upon. So here I am on the base for fast forward five years now. I'm really enjoying it. I look forward to the questions because I think that counselors, clinicians, therapists play a vital role in the judiciary. And I'm looking forward to exploring that today.

Thank you so much judge huff and, Jeff, if you don't mind you and judge Gonzalez both mentioned the concept of specialty courts. And I feel that for our audience's perspective, can you please share a little bit about what that is?

A well, a specialty court, a treatment court, a drug court, we do use those terms interchangeably. It is it is a unique way of dealing with individuals in a judiciary with issues such as drug, drug usage, alcohol, mental health, domestic violence. We take this these issues the defendants, and we took we took a wraparound approach to how do we treat these individuals so that they won't keep cycling in and out of the judiciary and that What a treatment court does a specialty court does. We say a court but really is a truly a docket and bear County we have 14 specialty courts. I preside over one judge Gonzalez presides over one.

Thank you. And Judge Gonzalez. Can you explain how a specialty court differs from traditional court practices?

A specialty court by definition, has to have the same denominator across the board. All specialty courts have this denominator, it must include drug treatment for the participant. So you heard judge have talked about 14 specialty courts in bear County. That's the largest number of any jurisdiction in the state. And I will probably go as far as St. Probably any jurisdiction in the country. And we have everything from Child Protective Services, early infant specialty courts, for children that are born drug exposed. We have juvenile specialty courts for juveniles that are already experimenting with drugs, or were arrested for a drug offense. We have veterans courts, for veterans who have stumbled into, you know, substance abuse as a result of their PTSD and other issues that were developed and arose during their military service. We have Esperanza court, which means a hope in English, but that's for adult sex workers who have been arrested for what's still on the books is prostitution and solicitation. We have an adult to drug court for misdemeanors committed by offenders that were under the influence of drugs while they committed those we have a number of DWI courts, because there's different levels of offenses and different numbers of offenses, repeat offenses. And so we have more than one DWI drug court, we have my court, I'm gonna play a whole court, which deals with the first time offenders of family violence. We have judge hops court, which deals with mental health and substance abuse. We have Judge glandt of felony drug court, which is felony offenders with drug issues. And so those are just some of them. I know, I didn't list 14 of them. But that's what a specialty court is. And the oversight organization is the National Association of drug court professionals, and a DCP. And they give us our 10 key components, and best practices that each of these specialty courts must comply with to be deemed a specialty court. They provide year long training on different levels for different aspects. We have each of these courts has a team of no less than 1012 people working with each of these defendants. We all have staffing or meetings during which we talk about the defendants, their progress, their lack thereof, most of the programs go in phases from one to five, many of these groups, courts have alumni groups in which the graduates continue to not only mentor those coming behind them, but also develop and cultivate sober activities for the graduates so that they can continue on their journey of sobriety. And so it's very complex network of service providers. It's rooted in the judicial system. We believe in restorative and therapeutic justice. You know, we have a vice president that started these types of courts out in San Francisco, California, decades ago. And she asked what kind of justice do we have in our country that will make an individual who pays their their dues serves their time, and then continue to have to carry the yoke of that conviction for the rest of their lives? Why can't we open up and an avenue for those individuals that we can restore that we can rehabilitate, and we can do it through the specialty courts process. And it really is a second chance opportunity for those individuals seeking redemption. And seeking sobriety and seeking a way to reintegrate into a community in the most productive way, as opposed to continuing to be a slave to their addiction, and continuing to, as Judge Huff often says cycle in and out of the criminal justice system with no help and no improvement in their quality of life.

Wonderful.

Thank you, Judge huff and judge Gonzalez for providing clarification and for the work that you all do in your in your courts, respectively. I am definitely going to ask you some more questions in a few minutes about really the role that counselors play within the context of those courts. But I'm going to divert over to judge Torres, can you tell me a little bit about your experience as a judge or as an attorney, working with licensed counselors, how have you seen them to be beneficial in the judicial or legal processes?

Okay, so the biggest way that I see licensed counselors involved on the civil side is when it comes to custody You know, of course, custody of

children, yeah,

I still have children, not custody me. You know, we're talking guys, like, I don't feel so special all that all of a sudden, I don't feel so special. Anyway. So we do, you know, a lot of family law on the civil side. So, you know, it makes a difference when you have a counselor come in, who has a relationship with a child, and, and testifies that, you know, it is not in the best interest for this child to continue, say, the parents are doing like a 5050, a two day on two day off. Or say that a parent might have some addiction issues. And their, their, you know, the child's having issues at school that require this intervention by a counselor. That's the biggest way I see it on the civil civil side is counselors that are involved with children coming in to help give the court direction on what kind of orders the judge should make, that are in the best interest of the child. And I will tell you, that if I have a case, where I've got any mental health professional involved, I it's going to pique my interest rather than having parents come in and say, he does this, she does that or you know, rather than having the parents come in and try to say, you know, this is what they're doing. That's bad. This is what a bad person they are. I want to hear from teachers. I want to hear from counselors. I want to hear from people that have credibility with the system, and can tell us objectively, you know, what, give us direction give the judges direction on on what the judges should do. I utilized counselors in my private practice as well, because when I'd have people come in to see me and say, you know, we need supervised visitation? Well, why? You know, what's going on, I think I want you to have your child see a counselor, I need some backup here. And I would work hand in hand with the counselors, because the counselors are the ones that know best, and I need to feel that I can, you know, believe in my case, and in order to believe in it, and then I'd want to hear from the counselor that would tell me, look, this is what I think should happen. But that's the biggest way I see it. And there's a huge part for counselors to to play in this family law process. Huge.

Thank you. Something I wanted to ask you specifically was, it's not uncommon for licensed counselors to be contracted for things like psychological evaluations or child custody evaluations, where civil, you know, civil cases pertaining to divorce and custody are involved. Can you speak to as a judge why you might order something like that? What would be examples of you know, why something like that would be relevant in a divorce case?

Well, you know, a lot of times it gets ordered, because the lawyers agree. And the judges want it also, because it will sort things out, you know, the counselor will go in there say that they there are some concerns maybe about some addiction issues with the parent, or narcissistic tendencies. But they're things that we don't know, you know, we're not, we're not y'all, right. And so we get the counselor involved that so that they can sort through everything for us and make the picture a little more clear. And, again, give us their objective findings. And, you know, the judges pay huge, huge credence to what the counselors tell us. And I think that it's very, you know, especially a counselor, you know, sometimes there are Amicus attorneys that get involved in the cases, right, which we play, you know, we pay heed to what they say, but to me, the highest level for me is getting a counselor to do a full psych eval to do a full custody evaluation. They're very thorough those custody evaluations require certain things by statute, right? The Family Code says you have to look at this, this and this. And they're very detailed. So really, you know, the counselor can give us the roadmap to help us in making our decision, but I pay so much credence to what counselors Tell me. And a lot of times, you know, I don't really like 5050, but if I have a counselor telling me Look, I did this full evaluation, and in this particular case, this is why I think the parents should have to do He's on two days off, I'm going to pay heed to what that counselor is telling me. So I mean, the biggest, the biggest reason is because they dig, they take the deep dive right, with the facts, with the assessment with a psychological assessment, and they package it for us. And it's just something that, you know, we have a presiding system on the civil side, we don't have our own dockets. So it's like case after case after case after case, the judges don't have time to really dig into all of them, really, to get into the mud. Right. And the counselors, when we get these custody evaluations really help us because they give us their very detailed reports and explanations as to why this should happen. So that's the biggest reason, in my perspective,

they thank you for that. And it sounds like from what you're sharing as well, that counselors are a bit more of an objective party where you may not find that with, you know, hired attorneys who are going to want what's what's in the best interest of their own client, this is an objective party who has a professional background that also has different measures to be able to justify their recommendations.

Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, my attitude is always, you know, with parents that are fighting over custody is like, you know, I'm, I'm not for dad, and I'm not for mom, I'm, I'm for what's best for this child. And so the counselors really do give us a better understanding of which way we should go, and sometimes are very, very difficult decisions. And, you know, it's just like a little, little minut detail might change my attitude. And we'll get those details from the counselors, especially in these custody evaluations.

Thank you so much. I'm gonna turn back to judge Huff. Joe, tough. Can you tell me a little bit about what role do counselors play in in your traditional criminal court and in your specialty docket?

Well, I mean, so in my traditional misdemeanor, court serves misdemeanor cases, cases like DWI, possession of marijuana thefts, domestic violence, and sexual assaults, those are the kinds of cases that I deal with on a day to day basis. So if there will be opportunities, like sometimes when, when dealing with DWI attorneys or having a trial, they want to bring a specialist and and that's not often that's really not often, but what I really deal with the with the counselors, the therapist in the in the mental health court, because I, I do preside over a mental health court. So but people are coming to me when attorneys are sending people to that court is that it doesn't even have to be that this individual dystrophin has ever been professionally diagnosed with anything. If they think that they're bipolar or schizophrenic that is good enough to get to us. We'll get the professionally seen by a doctor, and we'll take it from there the medications that they need to be on if they need some at all. So those counselors on my team, like, I think that the mental health courts different from most of the specialty courts, because we have that extra, you know, component of doctors, that our participants have to see, like, if I send someone over to the domestic violence court replay hole or the DWI, they don't have to take extra time to get set to dock to get properly diagnosed. I don't know do you guys Rosie? Yes, we do send them to like, so we deal with the Center for Health Care Services, they must see they have, they cannot miss that appointment to get properly diagnosed. And once they're properly diagnosed, and they're deemed eligible for the program, they're in the program. And so on my team, I have two treatments, I work with crystal counseling, we still have those anymore, that need more help. And because these these treatment, case managers go out to their, to them in the in the in the field. And so the center, though you go into into the center every other week, so different levels, like they do the assessment, what level how much intensity, have our lesson to say that this individual needs. So every every week when I'm having my staff is treatment has to be at the table. They're absolutely part of my mental health core. Both treatments for both teams within mental health court. So I tell them, I say this often in our staff isn't in court. I am not a clinician, I am the judge. But I am taking what you guys are saying to me so strongly so seriously, like, I need this is a this is a something that I hope the clinicians understand. When I send someone to them. Sometimes the person often will say not what to do in the rejection, and they will tell the doctor I don't want to do an injection. But what I'm trying to get from the doctor, the therapist, the counselors like look, you tell me what you think this person needs, and then I will go from there like I That's because they've said what they don't want to do an objection like why I'm not asking to participants, opinion, you, Doctor, what do you think? Because if you tell me that this person probably needs that injection, that's what I'm ordering. So I sent it to them all the time. Like, we're not trying to make them feel good. We're really trying to help them in the mental health court. So tell me as a doctor, what is your opinion? What is this participant need? And so I get that so much, I don't know if they think that they're hurting my feelings or offended me, like when I asked them, like, when I send them to the doctors, and they, you know, they're everything they have their counseling their intake with them, and then I'll commit Well, I'm like, no, no, oh, tell me in your professional opinion. What do you think this person needs? Because that was the question, what are the things that council have done in the past that you found to be not so addictive, because, of course, if that individual is going to go to the doctor, say, I don't want this, I don't want to do that. But I want the doctor to know that if they tell me their true professional opinion, what this person needs, I 100% have their bet. And that's what I'm going to order. Because I'll get I'll say to the to the participant, when it comes back to court, hey, I'm not a clinician, I'm a judge. But that doctor is telling me that you need this. So that's what I'm ordering for you.

So it sounds like for you, what's really important is is effective collaboration. You're yes, you're trusting their clinical opinion. And you need them to provide support and stand by their opinion, as opposed to allowing it to be participant guided, because when it's participant guided, it may not be in the best interest of your participant.

Oh, my God, you would not believe how much I get from that. I never thought that would be an issue. But my goodness, at least once a week, I encountered that with the doctors. No, no, just tell me but because, look, as judges, I cannot order someone to do like to take a serger. But what I can say to them is like, look, you're in the mental health court, either you're going to do this, or you can make the choice not to do this drug. But you will not be in the mental health court, you can't have it both ways. You could not be in this mental health court trying to direct your own your own recovery, that's not going to happen. So if the doctor is telling me that you need this, or you need this drug, or you need this program, you need this counseling, you need this therapy. That's what I'm ordering. So I want that I want the doctor though I completely have their back. They don't have to be timid, they can just be surely just this is what this person needs. And I have one or 2% Because again, I'm not a coalition. I am dependent on you guys to tell me what to do. For these each individual what I send them over to you.

Okay, so for any counselors that are listening to this podcast, what I just heard judge Alana Huff say is standing within your own professional two feet of space.

Yes, yes. I 100% have your back. Like if you tell me this is this is what you think. Maybe that's what they've encountered with other judges and they're very timid about it. But in my court, no way look at the judge sanded that is definitely what I'm ordering. Like, and the individuals they get it I haven't had one said, Well, I don't want to take that medication. I'm leaving them today. Oh, like they will get to the program. Okay, well, you either going to take this medication as prescribed by the doctor, or you can be administratively discharged from this program. Like this is not our first rodeo, we know what we're doing. And we're here to help you listen to us, you cannot show up here to want to describe, you know, you want to prescribe your own recovery, that's just not going to happen. Because if you could have done it, you would have already done it, you wouldn't be in the mental health court, ask for help. And we get that all the time.

So trust the process and do what I say.

Oh my goodness, make get more. We actually had a guy today in the mental health court that told me, he did not need to be referred over to an aftercare program for his substitutes, because although he just has to commit less than two weeks ago, he can stop at any time. And he doesn't know why don't trust him. When he says that he can just stop like do every single person is in his program. If they couldn't stop, they wouldn't be in this program. So no, you can say you never He was very upset that I would I was gonna have to go to Africa. I'm having them just outpatient substance abuse. Why can I just understand that he can stop meth anytime he wants, like the Why are you here in the mental health court, sir.

I like that at the this collaboration that you're talking about? Because I do. I mean, I totally believe in collaboration and communication. So we don't get to collaborate so much on the civil side, but we do communicate and I love that a lot of the clinicians we use on the civil side, you know, I love that I can reach out to them and say, Hey, so like one day I had this man and a hearing saying, you know, I was he was ordered to do a psych eval. Right, both parties and the parties come in because the wife's done everything the husband has only you know, gone to like maybe two of his appointments or something. And so he was very believable. It reminded me of because what you said this other man said, I could stop anytime. And he's like, no, no, I've been trying to call and the and I said, Okay, well give me one sec. And I pulled out my cell, and I just text the doctor. And I say, the psychologists and I say, Hey, can you tell me what's going on blah, blah, blah. And I tell him, I'm going to, I'm going to call him right now I'm going to text him. And so he told me, and the man, of course, was not being forthright with the court. And so I got to make another order saying, Look, you do it by this day, you know, and if you don't, blah, blah, blah. But I do think it's so good to collaborate as much as we can write, and communicate. Because hopefully, we're all kind of in that we're all moving, hopefully in the same direction, like y'all with your courts trying to get your participants to a better place. And in my court, we're just trying to make orders that are in the best interest of children, families, you know,

before I became a judge, I did CPS cases for 20 years. So believe me, we understand about the counselors, the therapists, that the you know, the parents are in these and the CPS and the whole, you know, I guess, judiciary a CPS world, and how important how important it is that, that therapists and counselors meet with these individuals. And it's kind of like I said, when I came to the criminal side and started when I was presenting them, it's, it's the same pool of resources, to me, still dealing with mental health, still dealing with substance abuse all the same thing. And same for both. I know the center, the CPSS has a lot of parents that have center for health care services. And then especially CT, I think just about all of this special courts work with the center, because the Center for Health Care Services here in San Antonio, our local mental health authority is a center for health care services, we contract with bear County, to say,

yes, so judge, Judge Gonzalez, I want to ask you a little bit about your experience working with counselors in in the reflectable. Court? Well, the flow court,

you know, it's it's part and parcel of the bigger court, which is a family violence court. And it also draws on the same type of team outline that you heard judge Huff talk about. Now, we're dealing with a different population with different issues. Many times it also includes mental health, but the prime the presenting problem, the primary problem is family violence. And so whether they're in roughly a whole quarter or not, at the time that I'm I'm hearing hearings on bond, or hearings on changing conditions of bond, those hearings come before a trial. And oftentimes, when an individual is arrested, the magistrate when we're at the place where they're they're given their rights, and they're, they're given a bond to meet, they also issue special conditions of bond. And that could include a no contact order. So you have a gentleman or a woman who's now been told you can't go home, you can't go see your husband or wife and or the kids if there were kids involved. So often, what we'll see is their attorneys file a motion to amend those bonds, they want that no contact order lifted, and they want to know harmful or injurious contact order in place to allow for contact. So when those individuals come before me, one of the first things I ask is, are you married? Do you have children? Because those are two huge investments in their life. And so I'll read through the offense report of the allegation. Now. They have to understand and I often remind them that the threshold of evidence in pretrial motions is preponderance of the evidence that doesn't take away from their constitutional right to be deemed innocent until proven unless proven guilty in their trial that comes later. So what I use a lot of times is therapists and counselors, marriage counselors, sometimes substance abuse counselors, licensed professional counselors LCD sees licensed marriage counselors, and I'll tell them you want me to lift the no contact order? Then I need a letter from a professional. I'm you're talking to me for 10 minutes. I don't know your life. As you know, George Lopez says, you know, I don't know your life. I want somebody who's going to see you for an extended period of time, make some assessments, observe you send me a letter come in and testify that I should lift the no contact order because they've vetted both of you and they believe that you're not going to harm each other and that it's in the best interest of the child or children to have you returned to your home sir or ma'am. And so And what I'll do often, you know, not often I'll keep the complete no contact order in Nice, but more often what I'll do if they're married and have children, I'll say, okay. You testified that you needed the your spouse to come and help at the house, take the kids to school, pick them up at school, help dinner with dinner, help with homework, help put them to bed. So I'll amend the order, I'll say what time do the kids need to be at school, okay, you can have contact with your kids and your spouse from 730 to 930 in the morning, then you can have contact with your kids and your spouse from four in the afternoon through seven in the evening, Monday through Thursday, on Fridays, I'll let you stay till 10 o'clock at night. And then on Sundays, you can go from nine to one, and you can see each other at this parenting class, I only have jurisdiction on the accused. So I'll tell the accused. If you want me to lift the no contact order, you go and you finish a family violence, parenting class, complaining witness, also known as the victim, you're free to join them there if you want to see them there. And I'll also say, and you can see each other in the office of a certified marriage and family counselor, you want to tell me what to work on this relationship that has led to one of you being criminally charged for violence against the other than I want to hear from that marriage. And and don't come to me after your intake, that's one session, maybe two, I want you to go there and I want to see a letter after you've seen that therapist six times, six times, then you can come to me with the letter or testimony that I'll consider in removing the no contact order. That's how we work those therapists in into the general family violence population. Now, you asked specifically about a federal court, our counselors and therapists do assessments for for substance abuse. They also do individual counseling, they do group counseling, they do with this particular population, the science shows that the reason they're in our court is because 90% of the people in my court were rusted under the influence of substances out of that 90% universe, almost 100% of them will self disclose that they are adult survivors of childhood trauma, or abuse. So in the program, we assess them for trauma, they do the ACEs study, you know, survey, and most of them come up five and above. Right. So we treat the trauma, we need a trauma certified therapist and counselor to do Mr. Tear trauma therapy, we get them healed up then we need the counselors, it's the our specialist in substance abuse. So we get them sober, we get them, we get them through that through individual and group therapy. And then you know, the the final part of it is to give them the skills so that they don't come back into the criminal justice system. And they don't reoffend. And a therapist and a counselor play a huge role at different junctures and different capacities to get these folks out of the criminal justice system, and give them some hope that they won't return to the criminal justice system because they were triggered, or they relapsed. That's how we use our counselors and therapists, not only with the general population who had been accused of family violence, but with the specialized population that are being given a chance in butterfly Hill court to do what we ordered them to do. Just, you know, do what we tell you to do is to judge Taurus said, and if you follow our direction, and if you follow our guidance, you will graduate and when you graduate, you truly get a second chance at life by getting your case dismissed and expunged at no cost to you. Now the cost to you will be if you can't finish the program and take advantage of all this counseling, and therapy and therapy. Because if you aren't under supervision and you go on probation, or you're found guilty of this crime, you will be completely excluded from the American Dream for the rest of your life. What I mean by that we're promised life. Right? We're promised happiness and the pursuit of justice, right. But you can't have that if you're deemed a violent offender because you're excluded from qualifying for college tuition or financial aid. You're disqualified from renting or leasing a house because the landlord can use your your record your criminal record that shows you're a violent offender to stop to not lease or rent to you. By law. Judge Torres cannot name you as a primary conservator to your children because you have a family violence domestic violence record. You cannot carry a handgun or a firearm or use ammunition because you lose that constitutional right under this particular system of family violence. And you will be excluded from all levels of licensed professions in which you must apply For licensed from the state, and you can't be a therapist or a teacher or a nurse, or a home health care provider, you can't be a cosmetologist or a plumber or an electrician, you can't be a truck driver, any license that's issued by the State is barred from you, because you're a violent offender, that creates a whole sub section of our population that exists out there that are being deprived of the right to pursue, you know, the American dream. And so these courts, mine in particular, turns that around for them.

I appreciate the work that you do. And it sounds like, you know, from my perspective, as a licensed clinician, it makes me inspired to want to do work within the criminal justice system, because what it sounds like you're doing is you're really utilizing our profession, to be able to not just better people's lives, but give them a chance to not fall under what you are describing is that inability to pursue the things that they might want in the future. Correct. Excellent. Thank you. I'm going to divert for just a second and I'm going to ask judge Torres, because this is a question that comes up often with licensed counselors, we get a subpoena to come to court. A lot of us don't understand. What is the difference between a subpoena and a subpoena? duces tecum? And what is expected of us when we are subpoena to come to court?

Okay. So a subpoena is basically saying, you need to you need to show up at this particular time, you know, in this particular case, and if you get a subpoena Duces take them that's asking for you to bring documents. So I've had some counsel show with lawyers, because they are concerned about, you know, there's random confidentiality. Yeah, exactly. There's ramifications, there's confidentiality, there's, you know, all our HIPAA laws. So if, if you get a subpoena, of course, just, you know, you gotta show and hopefully, you know, exactly, you know, maybe you may have spoken with one the lawyers that say, Hey, I'm going to subpoena you, you've been seeing this child, you know, blah, blah, blah. So I mean, you should show and you should have, you should review your notes, you don't, if you get it, you don't have to bring your notes unless you get to Duces take them. But I do think that it's important that you communicate with the lawyer, at least just to to confer with the lawyer about what is being requested, because you don't want to run into problems. I'm always very sensitive to counselors that have been subpoenaed. And I'm very, I get I think, I'm just very open to not forcing them, you know, they say, Well, I don't feel comfortable, you know, I tried to be very soft and what we expect them to provide. But of course, we want, if you get subpoenaed, hopefully you can provide some information. You don't have to expose, you know, private information, but hopefully could give some direction. Most of the counselors that have come into my court, they have not been, they don't come with records. And some of them even if they have gotten a subpoena Duces take them have not brought their records. Usually, they can work these issues out, though with the attorneys want the attorney that subpoenas that counselor. But that's that's a difference. That's a huge difference. And I mean, what to expect is, I mean, you're gonna be asked questions about this child or this family. But I will tell you, in my experience, most of the counselors that have shown up, they know exactly why they're there. You know, some of the counselors there, they come in and out, they you, you know, we use them all the time, right. So they're very well versed in what is expected, and they know what they're going to say, you know, based on my experience, you know, blah, blah, blah. But that's kind of a general answer for you. And the difference the subpoena and the subpoena Duces taken,

and you might have some attorneys that come at him aggressively when they cleared on the stand, so they should be prepared to talk about their professional experience first. You know, this was my experience. I went to this school I graduated I got this certification. I've been practicing for this long with this population or that population. This is not my first rodeo in a courtroom. You know, I've, I've given you know, I've been retained to do this type of work for the last five years I've appeared 1020 30 How many times and then once that is done, then they get into the weeds about the exact kind of services that were provided to this parent or that parent. And that's that's me speaking having done a lot of family law and CPS cases for the 16 years I practice law before I became An attorney. And that's the that's the struggle that I saw for the therapists and counselors up there. And oftentimes, one of the things that they would get themselves into a hole about was the person they didn't see. And they relied on what was shared by their patient to make to form an opinion about a person that didn't even see it all. And so, you know, yeah, yeah. And that, that happens a lot

that see, there's a thin line, because that goes more into a custody evaluation, or Trent, you know, so there is a thin line. And I think that counselors do need to be very careful. You know, like, if you are asked to see a child, you do have to protect yourself. Because if you're asked to see, you know, say that both parents have the right to take the child for psychological or psychiatric, right. And one parents, they start running into trouble and one parent takes the child to the counselor, well, the counselor should always let the other parent know, I'm, you know, your spouse, or your ex, or whatever, you know, this child, your child is coming to see me. And I'm writing to let you know. So that that, you know, you run into some little glitches, a lot of times you made me start coughing, Rosie, a lot of times with what I've seen, and in my experience, you know, the more you can kind of like get prepared for the court, like, say, documents or, you know, you, you talk to, I always would talk together a lawyer and say, Look, I'm going to call so and so, you know, and this is her resume, a lot of times the lawyer knows who the person is, because we use a lot of the same counselors. A lot of times, they'll just agree, I agree on the qualifications. And then that makes it easier for the judge. Sometimes they don't, because it might be somebody they don't know. I'm just speaking to that point that you made. Judge Gonzalez. But there are problems when the counselor has not advised the other parent, you know, I'm seeing this child because a counselor should get input from both parents as to why there might be issues going on with the child. And you know how that goes.

And in Texas, I think a lot of the counselors are like, what are you going to ask me? What are they going to ask me because they want to prepare? So Texas follows Holly V. Adams. And that's the US constitutional case, that lays out the basic framework that a judge should consider, right to determine what the best interests of a child is, or children are, and a minimum are the nine factors, right? And so one of them is the child's desires. Another one is, can you tell us what the emotional and or physical needs of the child or children are? That's very important when you're talking about a child with a handicap or a disabled child? What is there any danger to the child emotionally or physically, from their environment? Or from a parent? Do these parents have a parenting ability? You know, kids don't come with a manual? Some people are, we're just not born to parent, but somebody gave birth to a child and they're genetically linked now. Are there any programs available to assist these parents and shoring up their skills? Hey, are these parents thinking about the child's future? What kind of plans do they have for that future of the child? Is this parent moving nine times a year? Or is this a stable home for the child? You know, the judges look at all of that. Are there things that haven't been said to you that should have been said to you, omissions, right? And you look to the parent to see if they're making excuses for their behavior. Those are just basic nine things that a therapist and counselor would should be ready to answer within either their written report, or on on sworn testimony from the statement.

And that sounds just like a custody evaluation. That sounds like a custody evaluation. So so there's always that kind of the line. There is a line so I can understand why some count. You know, there are some counselors had a case last week where it sounded like this child has been going to a great, great psychologist, and, you know, had a good relationship. But when the case got, you know, ugly, and there was a custody fight, that counselor decided she didn't want to be involved. There's plenty of councils that do not want to be involved in the process in the judicial process, the legal process, so and that's understandable. I totally understand in stressful,

yes. And sometimes that's the other thing if you're subpoenaed as a counselor or a therapist, there's a basic plane You know, bread and butter subpoena that doesn't have money attached to it in Texas, okay? Now, if your subpoena comes with money attached, that's called tender. And tender was a way to guarantee that you would show up by paying for your parking or your the cost of showing up. But it's also translated as that is your insurance to a judge, when you're going to ask a judge, Judge, I subpoenaed this witness with tender with insurance for them to come here. And the judge won't issue a request or grant or request to have the witness picked up, unless you can prove you attach tender to that subpoena. And so, you know, they need to know that if and, and just because you're off a case, doesn't mean you won't get subpoena to testify about what you did with this family or children or child, two years ago, or last year, before you said, I'm out. And I'm closing the case.

I think one of the things that happens a lot in the counseling community, and maybe one of you can speak to this is counselors are afraid to come and testify. Because they worry in this part you cannot speak to they worry about damaging the relationship with their, their client. And in the case of a child, the parent is the client, because that's who that's who retains us. But the thing I think maybe would help if you all could speak to just to shed light on this. There are a lot of counselors who have testified before or have witness testimony for other counselors, and what they see is the opposing counsel really tear into them. And they take that very personally, maybe you all could demystify why that's happening.

Why they're get torn into you know, it's, well, it's unfortunate, because I think sometimes it's just the dog and pony show, you know, lawyers trying to put on this front for their clients.

And I'm gonna say I agree with Judge Taurus, and all three of us had practice long enough to see some lawyers will charge more to make it difficult on the opposing counsel and the opposing party. You know, excuse my language but so until will charge 1000 or 5000, just to be a bitch have an attorney represent and and some people want that as their as their representative and their advocate. They want their zealousness to be taken to the 10th degree. Right. And there's, there's those attorneys that are out there that do that more so on the civil side than any anywhere else. And I've seen him on both sides of the street, criminal and civil. And so I think that plays a big part of it. But just like judge Torres said, There's a dog and pony show, to be to be to be acted out in front of your client, so that you can show your client you're fighting to the death for him, you know, hypothetically hyperbole. But so there's that part of it. You know, the best lawyers I've seen are the most melodramatic, they ought to be actors, you know, a lot of the time. And for some reason, you know, clients buy into that, and they love their attorneys to play it up for them, and in their mind, make the other side look like idiots. Well, I was actually

taken off. I was actually fired from the case, because I was too rational. And I gave it to a friend. He said, he laughed later, he said, you know, you got way more for that family than I did. But I was in court just acted a fool and they loved it.

Marquis Kirkland

saying that he's crazy screaming, yelling, oh, they love it, but not even really looked like your visitation was actually rolled back under the second attorney. And we had a good laugh, but I didn't care. I don't, I'm not gonna go into court. And I felt dramatic like that, like he would but you know, like, Rosie just said, they really the clients really like that. So it's so easy to say don't take it personal counselors, therapists, but I know that it's so much easier said because that that lawyer, he doesn't care about you. He's putting on a show for his client. And it's nothing. It could be nothing personal to you. But you know, that's like I said, That's easier said than trying to make someone understand that because you're being you're on the stand and they're tearing into you. But I swear to you, it is nothing. You. Yeah. Is that attorney just putting on the show? For the same time? No,

I do not be right. But I do think as a judge, we have the ability to cut some of this stuff out. I mean, I think that, you know, I expect the lawyers to be respectful and of course it's not always like that. But I have I have called out lawyers They'll say, hey, let's talk in chambers, because, you know, it can only go so far with that stuff. And I do expect them to be respectful with everybody, the professionals, the litigants, you know, our staff. And I will call lawyers out and I'll tell them, Listen, that's you're going too far. I'm because I don't, that's just doesn't go well with me in my courtroom. And, you know, if you have counselors that are there. I mean, they're, I don't know, a single counselor that doesn't want to try to help their clients. So counselors in a totally different, they're in a different place. And they deserve the respect of everybody. You know, even vicious, opposing counsel,

judges, judges, that just you're just tourists, right? lawyers, judges have a lot of control of their court. And we could shut it down, because shut a lot of that down. And when we say stop, it has to stop. You could just have a lot of control over their courts. Hey, doctor, Speedy Gonzales, that last number nine, what piece of advice would you offer counselors who plan to work within the judicial legal system? I want to speak to that if we had time, please. So I would say, especially if you want to work in the criminal side with these specialty courts, because these courts have been up and running in America for I mean, 30 years or more. And I'm always so surprised when I get new ADA A's in my court. And I'll ask them, Have you ever heard anything about restorative justice, in law school, in the law school student teaching this and I guess, and I'm also equally surprised when I get therapists or counselors that have never heard about these programs, and they're everywhere, I can guarantee that whoever's listening to this podcast, if you check in your city or your town, you will see that there are drug court, their treatment court there, especially court right there. And if that's where your heart lies, if you want to help people, be restored, seek restorative justice, if you want to help give people help people get a second chance. They're in the judiciary, for whatever reason, you can play a part in this, you can, I would say, come to the courthouse, go talk to the judges, go come watch. I mean, these programs are open to the court, even though they're specially treatment courts, they're still open to anyone. They're open to the public. And you can come in and educate yourself. I love it when people want to zoom in and learn about the special courts and what we're doing. And Bear cutting away restorative justice. You know, I I love that. When different organizations, societies, nurses, doctors want, I get ahead. It was a conference going on in Medical Center. And I don't know how and where they found me, but they wanted me to come speak at the conference. I actually went and spoke at the conference about, you know, doctors, and I said, thank you guys, because your evidence based scientific studies helps to specially court, all these programs are based on evidence based what works best for participants, so they walk reoffend, they will enter the judiciary without their scientific evidence based, you know, programs, we wouldn't be able to do what we do in the specialty court. So there is a partnership there. And I just love educating like the new lawyers, the new ABA is to come and the doctors and nurses have never heard these, you know, it's a pedal bus. Judge Gonzales about a couple of months ago, we you know, we spoke to Nami, Nami, it's a National Association for mental health illness. I think I said, I was so surprised when it was like, I don't know, 100 people at that meeting. They were just shocked. They had never heard of these programs. They didn't even know we had a Mental Health Corps. We had a drug court and domestic violence. You guys are

very happy, though, when they heard that.

They have gotten this back out so many times. Like they've invited me to be on their board of directors like, well, we speak to organizations that I think like surely Nami, what, no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. That's my to get yourself involved. Counselors, intern, go talk to judges. I guarantee you judges love to talk a lot like we're doing now. They will sit and have a talk with you. This is what you want to do. These programs are in your city, guaranteed.

And so I'll ask that question of Judge Torres. Any advice that you have for counselors who might be listening to this podcast?

I'd say probably the same thing that just have the same if you're interested in getting involved on the civil side, then I think all of our judges are very friendly. Come sit in, in our courts look at the hearings. And on the civil side, we have something called the Domestic Relations office that will keep a list of the counselors that we use for or, you know, the psychologists, psychiatrists that we use for social custody evaluations. So So I'd say go meet the director, let him know that you're interested in doing these types of evaluations, I'm sure that there's some kind of process that he uses to determine who should be on the list. I have started to keep track of, you know, like, I'll get contacted by different organizations that offer different classes, you know, sometimes we have to do the parenting classes or anger management, even on, you know, the civil side, there's things that happen. So I keep a list of everything. And sometimes I've had counselors come and see me, I'd like to start doing custody evaluations, and I'll send them custody evaluations, I think that the personal relationship is huge. So I say just like what Judge Huff says, come introduce yourself, get to know our judges. Because the help I mean, there are some counselors that are so busy, say, for instance, you know, there's some counselors that take Medicaid, and we need so much help. And you know, those counselors, we know that do take Medicaid, I mean, we're sending people over and over. So you know, come introduce yourself, tell us what you can do to help us and get on our even if you're not on the list with the Domestic Relations Office, get on my list. This is the kind of counseling that I do. And I have plenty of counselors cards, and I send him because they've reached out to me, and they're saying, Hey, I'm here to help. So that's the best advice I could give show your face.

Thank you, Judge Torres. Judgment, solace, any advice for counselors who are listening to this podcast?

Yeah, and I'm going to speak to from from from seeing them on the stand, review your national guidelines, because I'm going to tell you, that's how I would tear these witnesses apart on the stand and get their recommendations and their written studies thrown out. Why? Because I could point out where they did not comply with their national guidelines, or they did not comply with the state licensing guidelines, or they did not follow the local rules as to how they were to prepare their studies. Okay, be honest, because another way that attorney may want to tear you down on the stand is they know more than about you than you think they know about you. Because in the high profile are high risk or high, high stakes cases, attorneys will hire private investigators to follow you around. And if you omit something or do a background check on you. And a lawyer says, Oh, you're up here making recommendations on my clients substance abuse, isn't it true? You're a recovering addict, aren't you? I mean, nothing stops an attorney from asking that other than maybe an objection from the other side as to relevancy. And I'd say it's very relevant. You know, a person that used to use is now making recommendations about my client. You know, in most cases, the judge will let it in for a little bit, you know, so you know, be forthright, be honest, don't be afraid to say, Well, yeah, but I've been in recovery for 20 years, Your Honor, you know, and then the judge will brush it off and say, Okay, I'll hear you now. You know, I've been doing counseling for 15 years. So be prepared for that as a counselor, because opposing counsels job is to have the court not hear you and to to discredit you. And to make you feel this small understand, so that you back off and shy away from the bold statement, you wanted to come in there and make on behalf of the person that you've been helping. That's what I would say to to therapists and counselors be ready for that, be the best you can be on that stand. And the way you do that is come prepared, and come with an Iron Shield because things are going to be thrown at you that you probably don't deserve to get thrown at, you know, thrown at you. But come prepared and come with your shield and come with your preparation.

Excellent, excellent advice given to our audience. I want to thank you all so much for being here and for being present and just giving us such rich quality wisdom. And that will be it will be signing off. Thank you all to all of our listeners for being here hug.

Thank you for happiness.

Thank you.

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