Business, Witchcraft, and Racism with Dennis Tongoi

2:30PM Aug 8, 2023

Speakers:

Darrow Miller

Dwight

John Bottimore

Luke Allen

Dennis Tongoi

Keywords:

god

dennis

business

africa

kingdom

talk

nations

church

culture

west

spiritual

life

brokenness

worldview

years

people

poverty

today

transformed

identity

When you plant churches is like getting a jar of water, and filling it full of marbles just displays the water, but nothing changes. But the siping the nations is taking a drop of ink and putting the jar of water. So disciple changes everything. When people's mindset has changed, the whole outlook is changed. And as I've observed over the years with just this last week, where people's mindset has changed, it's almost an instant transformation. Because is that thinking differently, seeing the world differently? The worldview changes. It's like putting on a set of glasses where you didn't you didn't know that you could not read, suddenly everything becomes clear.

Hi, Friends, welcome back to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to be the hands and feet of God to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of her mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Joining us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Kasana and cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Welcome to Ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of disciple nations Alliance. My name is Dwight Vogt. And I'm joined today by my colleagues, Darrow Miller, welcome Darrow, Luke Allen and John Baltimore debate here, right. Hi, guys. And today, we're really privileged to have a special guest all the way from Africa, Kenya, Nairobi. And that's Dennis tone guy. Welcome, Dennis.

Thank you. Right.

Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, I'd like to do a brief introduction of Dennis and then we'll launch into some questions about his his life story. So Dennis holds a doctorate of theology and missiology from the University of South Africa. Looks like he got that in 2017. It is also a church official in the Anglican Church with the title Reverend canon we were just discussing that just prior. Currently, he serves as the executive director of root to fruit and Kenya. This is a consultancy group based in Nairobi that enables leaders in business, government and nonprofit organizations to align their operating culture to their stated purpose. So that sounds really interesting. We look forward to unpacking that with you Dennis. Dennis is also the founding international Director Emeritus of CMS Africa that was from 2008 to 2018. From 2001 to 2014. He coordinated the Samaritan strategy Africa, a movement of over 600 trainers on biblical worldview and holistic discipleship in more than 40 countries in Africa. Denis has also served as the business leadership manager for the Executive MBA Program, run by the Copenhagen Business School in collaboration with Mount Kenya University. Over 110 CEOs of Kenyan companies have been mentored through this program. I see Dennis are also a certified professional mediators. So if we get in a fight over this phone will work. We'll turn to you for remediation help. And finally, Dennis,

say why don't use a mute button. Then mutesa Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. Finally, Dennis is a an author has written a number of books, one of those is mixing God with money, strategies for living in an uncertain economy, which fits us right now. Another is Business's mission and mission is business. And most recently, it looks like can the righteous rich transform Africa. So you've been a busy man with a full life here, Dennis, and it's really great to have you today on the on the podcast. So yeah, we'd like to start by just, you know, we've had a long history with you. And it's been a wonderful history. We've really enjoyed knowing you. And I've connected with you ever since I started with the DNA in 2011. And you come before that, but just tell us, tell us your story. And we're about worldview and somehow you encountered worldview and your life and how does that happen?

Yeah, I think my story is quite unique in that I gave 20 years of my life to discipling men and women in their spiritual disciplines. And I thought that that was enough to see transformation take place. On a personal level, people were very pious and appeared, you know, able to cope with life. But two of our leaders went into public office, and soon literally fell apart. At one zero for corruption, and the other one's life was not holding together. And at the same time, I got a chance to attend a conference in Oxford in the UK, where I saw the churches almost empty, which is very, very different from Africa. Here we are churches are bursting at the same. And those two experiences really traumatized me. I thought the gospel has retired time, and I did other work 50 years away from seeing a full churches become empty, as they were that time in Europe. And at that time, at a very, very low point in my life, I went to teach on my book, mixing guard and money in Nigeria. And I was given a day off at a pastor's office. And then the bookshelf was Dr. Miller's book, deciphering the nation's the power of truth, to transform culture. And as I browse through that book, the penny drop for me, and actually, it really changed my life, because I realized that at all, as long assumed the good commission was making disciples in the nations that good disciples is making disciples of the nations is an issue that needs to be transformed, not just individuals. And what had happened to my two very disciplined, pious people was that the culture had actually turned them away from following Christ. So they had bought again, hearts, but their minds were so culturally captivated. And so that began a journey. And a month later, Darrow was doing a seminar in Africa and was asked to host it. And that week, I still remember at the end of that week, telling Darrow, I'd like to see my the rest of my life seeing this message go towards Africa, called the church in Africa. And by God's grace, that has happened, because the church in Africa is very, very spiritual, but culturally captivated. And oftentimes we are caught up with all this piety, but the little transformation taking place in families, individuals on donations.

That's amazing. Just amazing. What was the essence of that message? What can that captured your imagination way back then?

I think I think the example I can give is, when you plant churches, is like getting a jar of water, and filling it full of marbles just displace the water, but nothing changes. But disciple the nations is taking a drop of ink and putting the job water. So disciple changes everything. When people's mindset has changed, the whole outlook is changed. And as I've observed over the years, even just this last week, when people's mindset has changed, it's almost an instant transformation. Because you start thinking differently. Seeing the world differently. The worldview changes is like putting on a set of glasses, where you didn't you didn't know that you could not read, suddenly, everything becomes clear. So I think that was really what what happened is this paradigm shift, and almost instant paradigm shift, as people's mindsets become aware a lot of us.

Wow. Can you give us one example of a mindset shift? I mean, we don't you live in Africa, we live in the US. We know US culture, you know, African what's, what's an example?

Okay, I can guess what from last week last week was training a group of leaders. And one of the perceptions here is that money is evil. And that pious Christians must handle it as little as possible. Yet poverty is endemic. So as I went through the book of Genesis with them, I looked at this seven times, God said this good about its creation. And then the eighth time is Genesis two, where it talks about God is good. Now, for them. The heart of man is what needs to be transformed, not gold. The problem is not so much the material world, but the heart of people needs to be transformed, so that they are Redeemed and Restored to God's original purpose for his creation. So there's this paradigm shift where we say, okay, it's okay to do business. But we need to do so like recognize the trappings and that our hearts can direct us towards. Not did Secretary either make money or seeking to use money?

What's the reaction?

Okay, the reaction was,

how do people respond to that?

I mean, immediately, there's that paradigm shift, it gives them the freedom, then go out and live out their stewardship mandate, the whole idea of multiplying was seen as greed in our culture, because we are very communal, as an as Africans will actually be all the same. Anybody wants to grow anything, it seems to be using other powers to grow, when you see it as an actual obedience to actually multiply what you have, especially when we looked at the whole idea of one of the one of the topics we did during our training was Kingdom mat, that the person who was at least still has to multiply the person with the one talent was not exempt from from growing it, that he brought it back good and whole, but he got the words from Jesus, the wicked, lazy servant, for giving me exactly what I get. have you. So people begin to realize it's okay to grow and multiply resources?

So can you tell us a story? Somebody who heard that message and took it to heart and, and ran with it?

Oh, yeah, 1000s of stories. I mean, this stage of my life. By the time we were done the last 15 years of my life I've seen literally every African country, people's lives transformed, people begin to see resources and responsibilities differently. I like telling the story of Bishop Luke, who was a pastor working in a slum area in Nairobi. And there'll be slum areas tend to be along riverbanks because the river provides is some kind of livelihood for the poorest of the poor. And the poorest people normally live by the by the river, or your ambition is to move as far away from the river as possible, as you generate your own resources. But you live in a slum with a little bit of water. And so when he, his bishop sent him there to go plant a church, the 30 members went, but they all fled after the second week, because the SEC poverty, so you only had four members. And he happened to come to one of the workshops that his bishop was attending, and sat in and listen to me talk about the transforming story, and talk about how the, even the poor have something to give. And he stayed in. And he went back to the for church members, and told them, they were basically jobless, young people. And one of the things we talk about that God created the world out of nothing, and that God's spoke, ideas have consequences. It is the words of God's mouth, that created the universe. So he went back and told them, you have nothing, and I sitting there doing nothing. Why don't you do something and and nothing. Why don't you come and let's look at some of the brokenness in our community, at that time education for many kids, a community school. So you've added two or three of the kids in the neighborhood and began to teach them they began to use what they had education, what getting paid for it. And about a year later, there's something like 50 or 60 Kids, I'd rather the whole school, which has got several 100 Kids, because they responded with what they had to meeting a need. There was the community.

Wow. Yeah, I think I saw you did a video on that once. And it was just amazing to see the growth of that school and what it's become. So it's just

several examples I'm about my wife is an example. I mean, she has an education, which she was not using. She had to visit this woman in Islam. And they told her that biggest need they have to see their kids educated. She said, Well, how can I use what I have? And basically, we got some pastors in the slums, churches, which are very tiny spaces to meet and ask them, could they could they allow us to use them during the week, when the churches are not in session, began a school there. And now they've been having over 150 kids every year, being educated, and going out of poverty, just using what you have, in obedience to Christ and and sharing God's love with those who need. Wow,

let's go back. I want to go back to that you were talking about Genesis one and two, and where there's gold in the in the garden, and it's okay to have gold because God gave us gold and we need to do something with it. And we need to work. How has that? And you said that's, that's a major new message for some people who see money as the root of all evil? How has that? How have people responded to that message? I mean, is it led to the prosperity gospel is it? How do businessmen take that?

See, the prosperity gospel tends to try and promise wealth without work? You know, it's a bit like magic, you know, you give and God gives back to you. And that hasn't worked for most people, for the rich pastors, who, who get the money out of it. So when we realize that God gave us to exploit resources, and work, reflecting his image, and through that work, he multiplies the work of our hands. It's a completely different, it's a game changer. And then when they realize that weakness is in the heart, God is a Fannia chapter three, we'll talk about how the priests are wicked, how the judges of wicked, how the rulers a wicked, so we can mess is not an issue of vocation. It's an issue of repentance, and how the heart that is not following Christ can be wicked, whatever it touches, so repentant heart can take God's creation, and actually multiply it for good. And the whole idea of loving our neighbor, what we have, I think, is key. So what about accumulating for myself? It's about how do I use what I have to love my neighbor. So it's an outward forecast, use of wealth, as opposed to an accumulation of resources for myself.

Hi, friends. Thanks again for joining us today for this interview with Dr. Dennis tomboi. We live in a world of poverty, corruption and injustice. We all know this isn't the way it should be and help needs to come from somewhere, but who is responsible for fighting poverty and bringing healing into our broken communities, the government or the church? The answer is the church. Unfortunately, we have largely neglected this responsibility. Here at the disciple nations Alliance. For the last 25 years, we have worked around the world with people like Dr. Tang boy, helping Christians understand that our mission is more than saving souls for heaven. And as you hear me say at the beginning of every episode, our mission also includes being God's hands and feet to transform the nations to bring healing and transformation to our broken world. If this subject interests you, we would recommend that you check out our most popular free video worldview training course the kingdom iser training program on quorum dale.com. Join over a million others who have learned how to bring biblical transformation into every corner of society by signing up at quorum dale.com. Again, that is quorum dale.com. Or you can find the link in the episode landing page. Before we get back to the discussion today, if you are enjoying it, please consider sending the episode to a friend. And after that, we'd appreciate it if you would leave us a rating and review on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening. Thanks again for joining us here on ideas have consequences.

Must be why you wrote the book righteous. What is it? The right guys are righteous rich save Africa. Yeah.

Yeah. Because wealth can be used righteously Job was a great, very rich person. But part of the reason why Satan got him was because he was concerned for the poor and the widow. You are you concerned that the point the widow got there were helped.

And how are your rich friends responding to that message?

Oh, it's very informative. There's one farmer who he's a very, very wealthy coffee farmer. He says, since passed on, when he had this message, for about 40 years of his life, his understanding of spirituality was being charged on a Sunday, and then donating his to his land to the church to build on to build and put up a building. He didn't realize his own business could be a vehicle for transformation, and that he himself was called into the marketplace as a wealth creator. And he just wept and said, I wish I had this message 30 years ago, because my gift is wealth creation. You know, I create jobs i i create wealth. And I bless people through wealth creation.

That's incredible. I probably gave him a lot of freedom and satisfaction to know that his his gifts could be used now and not just when he passed away to give away a material thing, but his actual gifting. That's beautiful.

Yep. Oh, it

reminds me of the Guinness story. You know, just the idea that you take wealth and you create wealth, and then you bless the world with your wealth through your business.

Dennis, have you read the book in search of God and Guinness?

I've done that. And I've used that story a lot.

Isn't that a marvelous book?

Yes, it is. Yeah.

That's a great story.

Well, how does Dennis how does this you've wrote the book Business's mission. I'm curious about how that fits into this conversation as well. And then you now work with root to fruit, which is a business consultancy. So how did those How did they intersect? I

think, I think I think one of the things that became clear to me was the good commission is about like I said, it's besetting the nations, and people, we have a church that's gathered to worship and to be equipped on Sunday. And then it is scattered on Monday to be the church in the marketplace. And the marketplace, people tend to walk in different domains. So when we were doing our training around Africa, we took different domains in which each of us team members will focus on those who focus on health sector, the education sector, the political sector, the sports sector, and I felt bad enough to engage with a business sector, because the business sector outside of Christ can it needs to be redeemed. So I realized that the business sector needs to be redeemed that business people see their lives are serving a greater purpose than just making money. And so that's how I basically got engaged with the static Business's mission. And one of the things that became clear was, I was one of the founders of Business's mission global movement in 2004, because CMS had actually established a business's mission chapter at Luzon, then, and most people who have spoken about Business's mission who are from the West, or east, but there's very little African voice to be to be to be hired. So my research and publication was basically to ask yourself, is there an African perspective on business, that that is different from the west or the east? And one of the things that became clear to me is a lot of people in the West have a perception of business, being an access vehicle, suddenly they can use but for us, the business itself is the is the is the is the it is redeemed, but I just have a call because in the west you systems, a lot of them because the Judeo Christian culture, or even some of the Eastern culture that that that promotes hard work, see results. But our animistic nature which is, which is kind of a victim nature doesn't actually see business or wealth creation as as a value. So the book I published was basically to give primarily my fellow Africans a perspective on how business can transform culture. But also less Westerners understand that for us, the business itself needs to be redeemed, not just a business person.

Something else that was born out of the African working group. That was I've been using for years now. I think the Samaritan strategy Africa was having a conference, I think, in Nairobi, and that may have been on around the subject of work. I'm not sure Dennis, maybe you remember. But in our sitting around the table with some of the African working group just chatting about work. The phrase Monday church came up. And I don't know if you remember that that moment. And we started talking about the Monday church and everybody knows the Sunday church. But the Monday church, what does that mean? And ever since that moment, in that conversation, everywhere I go, I introduce that concept of the Monday church and use that as you know, as the vehicle for getting people to think vocationally about what what it means to be the church on Monday, and that that was just such a precious moment in my life. When we were having that conversation.

I'd like to I have a question, Dennis, about this Business as Mission you said, for those in the West business sort of has inculcated western values. And it's more of when we think of Business's mission, we think of it as a way to get access to people. So it'd be you know, I have a business and that way I can I encountered people and I can share the gospel with them through my business, maybe it's through word or through act or through putting a track on the on the desk when people walk in or something. But you are a you're referring to a business's mission that actually transforms culture. And then you said, what needs to be transformed in the culture? And how in the world would business be the vehicle for transforming culture? Could you unpack that a bit in your context?

Yes, I think like, because of the secular and dualistic secular dualism you have in the West. For you, it is a victory to even get to pray at work. So if we're going to pray with people, the Bible will totally fail, we will, it will be a great thing. For us, we pray the money, we play the lines and pray in the evening, and then live like live like hell during the day, because for some time, we will actually see how the principles of business and the kingdom of God impact the work in which we live. So our challenge is what spirituality or making the workplace most spiritual path is almost too spiritual. I challenge is how the Kingdom Principles of Kingdom relationships work. As we deal with our clients, the issue of honesty versus honor, for example, when you look at African culture, often contrasted with honor, shame cultures are supposed to right or wrong cultures. And so someone would rather protect somebody else's honor, to be honest about telling the truth, that your character because the Judeo Christian background, truth and lies very clear, but for us truth and lies depend upon whether it is going to bring shame or honor to somebody else. So as people begin to realize what that looks like, they realize they can actually create businesses, which can begin to bring about kingdom values, and kingdom values and premises, primarily where we restore broken relationships. I've learned myself understanding myself as valuable in God's eyes, not just somebody who sells labor to my business, but somebody who has a work in the business. My work itself glorifies God, or is there someone who does become a shareholder in a business to get a profit at some time, but someone who knows that we're creating value through the money we're making, so we can continue to bless people with the products that we're creating? So it's going beyond just the the business itself to say that this is actually adding value the products we're doing, the services we're providing, are actually changing lives. So we talk about moving from from profit driven to purpose driven businesses redefine In our business, from what aspect of the fall, is it helping to restore? What healing is bringing to society or to individuals, both those who are internally, the customers and the workers, and externally, those who consume the products.

And Dennis, you are well aware of the terminology of triple bottom line that's used in Kingdom business Business's mission where we look at business from not just from an economic profit driven bottom line, but from a spiritual bottom line from a social bottom line, even in environmental custody, kind of, of bottom line. I mean, that's a that's a word picture kind of thing. It's a bit of a metaphor. How does that play in Africa? Is that a good explanation of a healthy Kingdom business, we like to say that a true Kingdom business is not just an entree into being able to evangelize it's 100% business and success. And it's 100%. Christian in trying to redeem a culture. So it's not it's not just an entry into being able to do church planning. How does that square with thinking in Africa?

I think there's been a lot of reflection on and there's a movement now called the economics of mutuality, we'll talk about how does a business mutually bless everyone. And we look at it the way we explain to people is that capital is not just financial capital, we talk about social capital, which is primarily trust, you know, that trust and business will not move forward. We talk about human capital, we talk about financial capital, who does talk about natural capital, and spiritual capital, so that a CEO sees themselves managing multiple forms of capital. I mean, take, for example, when it comes to the prosperity, gospel teaching, about giving the food type, to the to the storehouse, there is no end the Bible that talks about the type being money, the title is always food. And why was it food because eating together, create a social capital, who will learn to trust each other, and just eyeball to eyeball, and they will be able to exchange ideas. So throughout the Old Testament, the model of the nation of Israel was people ate together several times a year in fees that lasted a week long. And of course, the Sabbath meal, every Sabbath was a meal where the family ate together. So one of the things we're challenging people to do is spend time building social capital. One of the challenges have in Africa is people do not like to work together, because witchcraft was the dominant value here creates fear. So I'm afraid of sharing my ideas with somebody afraid of working somebody else. But social capital becomes important when you guys work together, trust each other, and actually build something bigger than ourselves. So poverty in Africa is very much a result of people being afraid to come together and form groups to address a problem. Because of fear, clear caused by a dominant culture of witchcraft.

You mentioned a number of different forms of capital. And there's one I want to mention and see if, if it's included in what you said, or needs to be added to what you said, you were talking at the beginning about your own story, and how you read discipling nations, and you had a paradigm shift. You had a mind, a mind set shift. And I often say that, you know, because in the West, we're all about material, capital, physical capital. That's everything. And it's not, as you've said, but I said, the most important capital is Meta physical capital. It's the mindset. And when the mindset is transformed, as you shared in your story at the beginning of this, that opens up a whole new world of reality. So in fact, one of the greatest resources for development is metaphysical capital and a biblical worldview. Can you respond to

that? I think there's something you said during one of your trainings, that wealth is not what is under the ground, or above the ground. Base was in the mind. And I think that's really important about metaphysical capital. So it's how you look at your struct because you're extracting for this case, what's outside the ground, you probably everybody or it just was above the ground. But if you have a wealth that you actually look at, it's above the ground, and there's something else I've also used recently data that again, one of your books, I think it I think it was the book on From now, on, what wisdom is that you either have a culture that is heading towards life, or there's a wisdom culture or towards death. That's a foolish culture. And when I find people who do not want to be religious, and they do not want to see Christianity as a value, I say, whether you're a Christian or not, you know, whether your your values and your activities are promoting life and wholeness, whether they're destroying life, or you know it, you feel it. So are you putting in wisdom, right living in foolishness?

Yeah, very good. So

with businesses, we think it's interesting. Are you a business that actually promoting wisdom, wholeness and life? Or it was promoting foolishness and destruction and the value in life?

For the businessman, you work with Dennis, you know, profit is king? How does this message communicate to people? Or how do they accept it?

Yeah, one of the sessions we do is actually deeming profit, see profit, not as the goal. But profit is, is a validation that you're doing the right thing. And profit as a means that allows you to continue doing what you think you're gonna be called to do. And one of the things that we talked about the story of King David, when he was when Goliath was threatening Israel, and three times he asks, you know, what's going to be given to the man who, who basically gets to do this job, and, and, and he's told he's gonna be a big reward for him. So profit is a reward for doing the right thing, not a goal. And it didn't allow it allows us to keep doing the right thing. So profit needs to be thought through because profit is not bad. Profit is actually an indicator that you actually doing the right thing for the right at the right time, the right way. It's not a goal. It's actually a validator.

When I was traveling somewhere, I was sitting next to a vice president of Emerson Electric, you've probably heard of them, Dennis. And the man who founded Emerson Electric was a very godly Christian. I don't know how many years ago, 100 years ago, 120 years ago. And his he was an inventor. And he had a biblical worldview. And one of the things that was a virtue for him as a businessman, was that the products they produced had to be excellent. And the other thing that the products that he produced had to be virtuous. And he asked two questions, can we make this? And that that's good. If we can make it, that's good. But the more important question was, should we make it? And if the product we were making was not edifying to individuals, and to people into the culture, they wouldn't make it, even if it would have been profitable. And I asked this vice president is, is this still a virtue in Emerson Electric? And he said, No, the bottom line today is, will it be profitable? And can we do it? And they don't ask the question hot we to do? It will, will it actually edify? Bring hold development to to a culture and to people?

Yeah. So I think it's interesting that as you talk, you use words like, well, we understand Western culture. But you're not preaching a western culture. You've used the word Christianity, but you're not actually saying Christian much, but use the word kingdom, you talk about a kingdom culture. That's very intentional for you. Why?

Yes, I think, in fact, we very rarely use the word Christian because Christian can has had all kinds of cultural nuances. And even the most Christians would agree what Christian is ourselves. But the gospel, the good news, is actually good news of the kingdom, the entire Bible, the story of the Bible is about the Kingdom of God, right from Genesis one. When we're given dominion, God is King to Revelation. So the primary theme of the Old Testament and New Testament is actually the kingdom of God. And that's what Jesus Christ preached. So one of the things to try and get people is to stop thinking, denomination stop thinking, even religion and start thinking kingdom. I've seen people who have other fates was linked with kingdom values. They do not know who Jesus is, but they're the kind of lives that living show that the God's law is written on their hearts. And in fact, we had a discussion with somebody the other day, about which comes first faith or practice orthopraxy, or orthodoxy. Now Paul seems to say in the book of Romans, that other practice is actually more important than orthodoxy. The Gentiles who by by nature, practice and law, are accepted before God, that those who know the law don't practice it. So it is actually doing God's will, I suppose, to knowing God's will. And the people of other cultures whose hearts God has touched, but they still need to KNOW Jesus Christ, because he's the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, but their hearts are closer to God's kingdom, that many of us who know the law and don't do it.

How have you seen that in your life? You've lectured people of different faiths, right? Yes, I assume and how do they buy into that? Do they respond to that?

Yes, I like I say I've seen I use the word godly and religious. Okay, we have religious Christians, religious Hindus, religious Muslims, probably civil religious atheists, because they are religion is you know, I mean, they are beliefs that they hold on religiously. But what I look for more, so do our godly, godly Christians, godly atheists, godly Christians, godly Muslims, godly Hindus, the people who love their neighbor, they're humble, and generous, and they have a fear of God. So the humility is a big marker to those of us who are those people, anybody's godly. And of course, the hallmark of that is Cornelius in Acts chapter nine. And one common denominator, I've seen him, but godly people is their humility, not so much they know so much. They are their pride, and they are pride and keeping certain sets of laws, the humility,

I'm gonna step back about 20 minutes here. Now, you use the word fear as a problem in Africa, and it's due to witchcraft. Yep, we're not really, we don't know what that means. I don't think could you unpack that for us?

Okay, I think maybe I can give an example. I was speaking to a group of, of Ugandan government officials. And I told them, we're going to talk about a biblical worldview. And the first 10 minutes was rioters. They said, We don't believe in the Bible, we are Muslims, we are atheists, some of us that witch doctors, you know. And so I told them, okay, this allowed me to give you one verse of the Bible, and then you can fight over the rest. So going back. That's one. I said, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the natural and the spiritual. Since then, most of us are either looking at the world as natural or the word spiritual. Secularism basically describes the spiritual and spiritual doesn't exist. I focus primarily on the natural. While we, the non West, a dominant worldview is a spiritual worldview, everything's animated by spirits. And spirits are seen as having power. And therefore, everything's about power, not truth. It's about power. So Africans understand that because they use spiritual powers to cause effect knowledge in the natural world, to which God is primarily using spiritual powers to cause effect, positive or negative in the natural world. But so is prayer. The prayer is actually turning to God, who has is able to live in an era in the natural world. So a biblical worldview, I told them is one where we'll look at both spiritual or natural, a God who could tell us what the spiritual and natural world not one who is one or the other.

I'd like to put a tag on that, Dennis. Yeah, where we are in the West. Today, we have abandoned the biblical worldview, where God is the Creator of the heavens in the earth. And for a century or more, we focused on the naturalistic worldview, everything's materialistic. And there's been in the West a death coming, because naturalism doesn't explain all that there is to explain and it doesn't touch the human heart. And so we are moving from naturalism to an animistic framework now, where everything is spiritual. And everything is so spiritual today that we have a gender identity. And that is a denial of the reality of biology. There's no physical reality and everything is a spiritual thing. inside of you. So without the bib We'll call worldview, we went to a naturalistic worldview. And now the West is shifting to an animistic worldview. And it's coming very quickly.

I think like I say, there's a part of what Jesus talked about the person who demons were cast out, and then the 1000s, left empty. And then seven, you know, demons seven times, you know, stronger, came into possess now, that language people don't have don't like that language. But human beings cannot. The empty, spiritual, spiritual vacuum cannot stay empty, it must be filled with something. That's what's happening. It's not filling the Holy Spirit is filled with other spirits. And nothing for me, going back to the Kingdom theme. Again, a question I asked people, because the Bible says that the kingdom of God is not food and drink or consumerism. So how happy and satisfied I am, but righteousness, right relationships, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. So I asked him a question, how are your choices, or your behavior, or your beliefs, giving you better relationships between yourselves? Like between husband and wife, or parents and children, and without the Spirit of God? Other choices, there's anger, there is bitterness, there's fighting. I mean, we are perfect, as as those of us who have a biblical worldview, but at least we have a place to give us power to address that brokenness. What about joy? Are you really filled with joy, it is a life of joy and peace. And to be really frank, people who have turned away from God, and embrace other spirits, there is no joy. So go to actually fill that space in with drugs, you know, antidepressants, or alcohol, or other things. Because the Spirit of God is the only one that can actually give us that joy and peace and right relationships, whereas other spirits give give a fake sense of happiness, or joy, but that happiness is void. And as I've observed, again, I don't live in the West, but I've enough contact with with, with people that I encounter, to see the difference. When you come to Africa, you see our material poverty, very, very clear. For us, we don't see ourselves as poor. When we come to the west, we immediately see the spiritual and spirit and social poverty you have there, it's very, very, very clear to us. Very, you're naked was spiritually and, and socially.

That is not so convicting to us dentists. And it's true, if we look at ourselves from outside eyes, like you say, it is, that is so so true. And all of these things, of course, are causing the kinds of divisions that we see in our country. And they those have expressions, culturally, those have expressions, politically, etc. And you're seeing these things in so many different areas and gender, sexuality, race, etc. Give us your we're interested in hearing your perspectives, and your observations as a black man in Africa about the situation of race in America. And you'll speak at this as a as a man who first as a kingdom man, and a child of God. And so we're interested in in what you see from there and your perspectives on what's happening in America in in race, and what the impact of that is and what you see as potential solutions.

Okay, first of all, to put things in perspective, the ratio crisis is not new. He says all the time. Going back to the Genesis, we see the nations being divided by, you know, tongues and different nations. So it is an act of mercy for God to split the nations of the Tower of Babel. Because the United for evil. God desires for us to United for good will unite for evil. Sometimes the divisions are actually an act of God's mercy and God's grace was the look at the New Testament times we see the Jewish Samaritan divide, which was very, very an animosity between the Jews and Samaritans, they had common ancestry, but different spiritual interpretations of what they should do differences of laws, where should they should worship? And so it comes back to the fact that what Jesus did when he is the person asked him look to pretend you know, what, what should I do to have eternal life and basically his answer kabbani down to love your neighbor as yourself, that reality is still the same. So, divisions will always be there in society, whether it's going to be tribal, racial, and the same thing happens in the UK in the UK, the Irish and the English and Welsh and the Scottish, they tried to separate me. So it's kind of a human thing for people that live differently. But what makes it different that kingdom is that when we pray, Our Father who art in heaven, it makes you an eye brothers. Now, that's very difficult to comprehend. So that our brotherhood is based upon the fact we have one, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray, Give us this day, our daily bread, it means that we are concerned about how my neighbor lives, whether he's hungry or not. So when I look at the West, and I see how structurally, again, historically, there's been different ways in which people have economic opportunities, then it means that even my kingdom person out seeks reach out to anybody who are called brother, not because of the same race, because of the same father, and find out, how can we share in our daily bread together? How can we build daily bread together, and again, from a biblical worldview, the world is an open system, the resources are not limited to the zero sum where I am growing rich at your expense, but that together can actually create wealth together. Now, I don't mean to say everybody's equal, because again, the Parable of the Talents talks about people having different compatibility abilities, and capacities with equal opportunity, but not we're not equal. So my job or my kingdom responsibility is reach out to those who are going to help bring up and help to, to have a hand out, hand up rather than a handout. And so when I look at the division in the West, it is gone to the most common factor of identity, we look at the fighting about resources, because you're you probably have been self actualized. When it comes to resources, you're you're you're not looking at, you know, the clean water or good roads, or you're the very basic idea of who am I identity, mostly the fighters come, you know, am I a man or a woman? I mean, for us in Africa, when you hear that argument, it's almost difficult cooperated. And we will be asked that question. That's really where the crisis has come in the West. So my primary identity can become, I am a child of God first, then I can look at you as a myself, me as a brother. Now, as a child of God, I live in a fallen world. Therefore, I I'm broken, and you're broken. Now, the way you need to express your brokenness, and my brokenness may be different. But we all need a redeemer, we need to come back to Jesus. So you can actually make us whole again. So we need all need redemption. So I can then look at your brokenness, my brokenness, in my brokenness is an identity issue. Yours is a material issue, or a stewardship issue, then together can come back and say, what does it mean for us to be look at God as our Father? And for me, I know, the holiday issue of identity became very, very critical, some years, maybe about 15 years ago, maybe closer to two, yeah. When I was going through a difficult time, because I thought I was not providing my brokenness was the issue of poverty, economic economists doing so badly, I was not able to provide for my for my family, because the crisis here in Africa, because politics, yeah, tends to be to be very, very extractive until I got to a conference at the end a conference, and somebody was asked to read x two things. First Aid, we talked about taking the nations for Christ, but read verse seven, by mistake, which talks about how Christ, you know, is the Son of God, and how today, you know, God has become his father. So the first question I asked myself that, you know, is my first point of identity that I am a child of God? If that becomes the point of identity, then I can start looking at others as my brother, then my first desire for you, you know, so much. How broken Are you are, which areas of brokenness do you express? But do you want to become a child of God? Do you also be identified as a child of God? That gives us a common ground to discuss a different brokenness?

Yeah, amen. Thank you for that. Your your, I would say what you're saying is, you're expressing the unity that first needs to come in Christ, and then we can deal with the diversity that is so beautiful in the body of Christ. But first, we need to embrace the unity that we have as believers, and not these tribal divisions of identities that have so broken and divided our world. Thank you for that. Dennis. Thank you.

Let me take one step backwards. Dennis, that was wonderful. But the God that we worship is the one in many God, unity and diversity, one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and the fact that this is the nature of reality before the creation of the universe sets up the framework for a unity of diversity. So that was before the beginning. And we know very clearly what you've talked about here. And we know that at the end, all the tribes and nations are going to be brought together in one kingdom with one king. That's where we're heading. And that creates the beginning and the end, creates the framework of one nation, with many different people. And how do we have that sort of as the motto in our own nations, we are a nation. But there's a diversity of people that make up this nation. Because God is Trinity. And Christ is building a kingdom, one kingdom with diverse people.

And I think I think he's also right to say that there is one thing and this was another kingdom of darkness, the two kingdoms. So yes, realize the kingdom of darkness has its own set of rules and laws, which involve talking about fear as a trade division. Killing, maiming. Yeah, like God's Kingdom has a different set of rules. Yeah.

That's right. Well, Dennis,

you've two things you've said, really struck me one was this idea that you are a child of God, and you're, you're taking it back to your identity. And I think, wow, how many times do we make that foremost? What is my, my, my identity is not how I belong to anybody, but it's how I belong to Christ, and who I am, as Dwight Vogt. And I am an image bearer of God. And, and I think of that, because Because if that's foremost, then the autistic child who lives across the street who's can hardly do anything. His his identity, is foremost, its primary. So we are equal. Because of that, you know, we're comparing identities. We're not comparing, is he autistic? Am I not? But we're comparing, you know, what color are you? What color am i But Are you a child of God? That's the only way that struck me. I knew. Anyway. Thank you. The other thing you said a while back was that going back to that fear theme, you said we struggle with fear? How does the kingdom of God address the fear issue? Because I remember the psychologists years ago, and I question what they said, but he said, the number one need of every human being is security. We all struggle with insecurity. It might be material, it might be emotional, it might be psychological, but we all struggle with security. How does the kingdom of God address fear?

Yeah, I think I would say that the primary law in God's kingdom is love. Um, uh, you know, talk about agape love, love your neighbor as yourself. But the primary law, in the, in the kingdom of darkness, that we do not like as very specific word is to beat around the bush where there is a kingdom of darkness is fear. And the opposite of love is not hate. opposite of love is fear. And we see this in our politics is also became president or governor, you're afraid, what might what will happen to you either reaching out to them in love. And so there's a way in which we need to realize that the foundational principle of love, and the Bible says perfect love casts out fear. So the more I love people, the more I'm able to reach out to them in their brokenness, without being afraid of them, contaminating me, or them injuring me. I'll give you a perfect example. In the West, you're having all these kinds of pains between people with different gender identities for us here. The poverty is more material. My wife works in a slum area. Now, if you walked in there today, or you looked at people, the first thing they will come to you is fear because their bodies are mad. By the fights. They've been in the, you know, the card that's gonna be fulfilled with cars. But when you embrace them with the love of God, you become very different people, you're safe with them. They're still scarred and mad by the brokenness of their world. But they're, you can love them and they can love you back. So the issue of how do we engage with people in overcome that fear, especially love them reach out to the masses who take the risk. And as we love people, they come to us with their scars. We actually some of them come with us the wounds really healed this type of stuff. But some of them come back to us and get healed, but the scars remain. So once that is true, the opposite of fear is not hate, but love, but love, then I'm able to go beyond fear and actually reach out those who I feel could hurt me, or they take advantage of me. And then God's love takes over. And they start to experience that love. And that's what actually breaks people's hearts because every human being is made for love for God's love.

Excellent.

Wow. Well, maybe this is a point to close, close on love here. Any other questions from you guys? Anything you'd like to ask Dennis?

I have a broad summary question, if you wouldn't mind. I think it's so interesting, Dennis, hearing from your your perspective coming from Africa. And we share a biblical worldview. But our cultural worldviews are very different. And you've mentioned a few things that that display that. You said, when you look at the West, you have this unique perspective coming from Kenya. And you said one of the things you notice right away is are you said we are and we're naked to you spiritually? And I guess I guess my question is, if you could, if you could give one message to, let's say, the Western American church, what what would what would that be? Is there one thing that that you just wish that we could hear, and we're missing in our blind spots?

I think I think my message would be that the wild is an open system. It's open to God. So prayer becomes important, not just you know, saying prayers, but a life of prayer is open to Satan. Satan is a liar, he is real. You know, he does, he lies to people, and that you've been lied to as a character. So are we. So that we need to recognize Satan's lies, but also open to Demons, demons are real. And there's more witch doctors in France, than they are in Africa, here in many, many countries, per capita, because they understand the domain of witchcraft. So our angels, but also is also human beings made in God's image. So if you have a holistic view of life, recognize that the world is an open system, when you discount the spiritual dimension of the reality which we live in, the poverty is there because you don't see the lies that keep you in bondage. And of course, we will talk about that truth sets you free. So as you see, the world is an open system become aware of the need for spiritual warfare, where truth, and this is what I loved about this book, it's not about power encounters the truth encounter with the truth sets you free, then you be free indeed. And then the lies that your culture teaches you analyze that micarta teaches me, when that's a dead dress address biblically, we then become truly free to be filled with joy, and peace, and right relationships, they'll be the message I'd give is look at the world as an open system and recognize the spiritual reality needs to be addressed. And here's where we could we could learn from one another. We've learned a lot from the west about how to be good stewards of the material world, and how to use our mind better. But how could the West learn from us about how to not do the work but being overboard spiritually, but how to balance out the spirits to spiritual reality? I'll give an example. When it comes through to fruit, one of the things we do have looked at is a lot of business talk about let's collect the data. That's very much where we need to get in Africa was the data that I didn't say, What about prayer? about do we pray, you know, about what we do want to sing a prayer for us in time to pray? So God actually is the one who leads in the ventures we're doing, not prayer sort of work. But prayer that precedes work.

That's a good message. That's a good message personally, that's convicting. I mean, not only have we expelled, you know, terminology around angels and demons from our vocabulary here, it's we don't even talk about sin anymore a lot of times, and if you can't figure out what the issue is, if you can't get back to what's causing the problem, it's really hard to fix. So just opening our mind to those those realities.

Yeah, that's a good reminder to me as well, as you know, we're entering our political season here and emotions run so high among friends and colleagues, and of course, and media. And what based on what you said, I have to be reminded one, that there's a spiritual warfare at work, that Satan is trying to undermine the good in our nation and in our communities. And to my response to the people who I think are my adversary should be how can I love them? How can I pray for them to move towards God's intentions and somehow that that prayer of love will neutralize my fear and and that understanding of the powers of darkness at work and the trust in God is also a way to combat fear because fear is never a positive. That's never a positive So, thank you, Dennis. Thank you. All right. Well, Dennis, you've given us a lot to think about. My head's kind of spinning. It's been great talking with you. Thank you for sharing with us. And for all of your insights, we really appreciate it. You're a dear friend. And at this point, we'll bring this to an end here today. But if you want to know more about Dennis and his work, go to route to fruit.com. That's route hyphen, to hyphen fruit.com. And you'll see his bio there and learn more about where he works and what he does. Also go to Amazon and look for his book, mixing God with money. I think you'll enjoy it. And then just thank you again, Dennis. And thank you all for listening to this episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast and disciple nations Alliance.

Yes, thank you for listening to this interview with Dr. Dennis tomboy. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Tonga and all the resources and ministries that we mentioned in this episode, including mixing God with money, route to fruit, the Samaritan strategy, the Monday church course or the kingdom iser training program courses, just tap on the link in the description which will take you to the episode landing page. On that page, you can find all of those resources as well as the transcript of the episode neatly broken up into chapters, key quotes, shareable social media posts and more. Again, thank you for joining us today and make sure not to miss next week's interview with a very special guest, Dr. Bob Woodson. I'm sure many of you will recognize him from his recent appearance on the documentary Uncle Tom one and two, or his excellent discussion on the Dr. Phil show earlier this year. Woodson is an American civil rights activist. He is a leader, author and the founder and president of the Woodson Center. He joins us uniquely speaking from experience as he was born during the Jim Crow era here in the US, and was a part of the civil rights marches in the 1960s with Dr. King. Since then, he has dedicated his life to helping our brothers and sisters in black communities here in the US. You'll definitely not want to miss that discussion coming next week here on ideas have consequences.