Hello, everyone, welcome to the building equity based summers podcast. My name is Lakeisha Kimbrough equity consultant and coach with the work and here with me today are Linda, and Terri, Linda,
I'm Linda Braun. And I work with Lakeisha on this project, and I'm so excited about who we have as our guest today. And our guest is Terry marks. And Terry, tell us who you are.
I'm Terri Markson. And right now I am a facilitator with building equity based summers, previously worked as a librarian for the Los Angeles Public Library for almost 30 years. And I'm so honored to still be part of Bubs.
We're so honored to have you join us today as we talk about and think about, engage in conversation and learning and growing about discomfort, and how that can help us grow in this work. And what this what this means, and kind of go on this journey, maybe reframe from this work to this journey, this equity journey. So thank you for being here with us. And with that, I think we're ready to get to it.
Yeah. Terry, tell us a little bit about your experience in building your knowledge, experience, practice related to equity, I
came into this and quickly felt uncomfortable overwhelmed, I was able to recognize that I there was so much I didn't know. And I didn't know how and even if I knew about it, I didn't know how to talk about it. And I think you know, and so much of the discomfort is in is just here. So you know, and the end, but you guys have always done an amazing job acknowledging that and talking about that. So there was that. But even, you know, Tuesday, at our session Tuesday, and the whole public servant versus library servant topic came up, which was just fascinating and so relevant. And I was kind of overcome with this whole idea. And Linda will vouch for those that I just like, was overcome by this whole idea of being the expert. Of always, in my job in my work, feeling like it was my job to be the expert. And even when I wasn't the expert, I tried to be an expert. And that is uncomfortable to when you know, you're not. But there's this expectation that you are. And there's so much learning, you know, especially if you're you know, in library world very often you're moving from one position to another position, you're not always hopefully have one job and you're done. I mean, you know, you're there for 30 years, I I really discourage that and people but so there's kind of discomfort in lots of places. Like even if you move from branch to branch or position to position. You're entering new communities that you don't know anything about. And how do you how do you a lot, I think that came up for a lot of people talking about community and connecting with community and if you don't really know your community, if you're new there and even, you know, even if they give you some, you know, I've given Linda, this example. You know, when I got my first branch manager position, I was in a community I knew nothing about. It was like 50% Filipino, I knew nothing. And in my eagerness to provide for this community, I kind of found a program that I was like, Oh, well, it's Filipino. So they'll be interested. You know, it was just like, this reactive kind of I need to provide something here. And it was the completely wrong thing. Like nobody was interested in it because the Filipino community that might have been interested in that wasn't in that neighborhood. And what that neighborhood wanted was completely different. And it took and it can take you so long to even start to absorb all that and especially Like, you know, I'm an older white woman coming into everything. And I, you know, I know how much I don't know now. So those are the those are my discomforts here discomfort with the terms discomfort with knowing with recognize, you know, having to learn what i Who i it who I am internally and catching myself a lot. So,
yeah, little berry, all of that, right.
So it's,
it can be really scary and simultaneously be really beautiful. And as you were talking, I was thinking, what are the what sometimes are the feelings that are that might mask discomfort, right? So like we might be uncomfortable, but it might show up as we might withdraw, or it might show up as anger or we might lean heavily on the area or the field that we feel we're an expert in and just go into being only in our head and only approaching things from there because the comfort of being with what I know, right? And so, but as you were talking, I was thinking, Yes, discomfort and what might be going along with that, and how do we recognize what else we're feeling? are we feeling overwhelmed? are we feeling scared? Are we feeling nervous? Are we feeling like? I don't know. And that's uncomfortable? Because I don't know if I'm supposed to know, right?
Yes. There's shame involved too, in this work.
Thank you for naming that. Because I think, um, I think that comes up so often, right? Like, people feel shamed? Because they don't know or because maybe they said something that didn't land or because that program didn't go over? Well, because, you know, no, community is a monolith. And hey, but this program for this community, let's do that. And then you learn, oh, for part of the community, maybe but that the other part, and shame can creep in. And just when you said that I immediately thought, really? How do we help people hold and help ourselves hold and remember, that shame says there's something wrong with me, as a person, something's wrong with me. I'm not doing this, I'm bad. I'm whatever, like, right? Fill in the blank, where, and that gets us to shut down. That gets us to disengage that gets us to get this to become defensive. Right? It's in so many other things. And when we can, we can pull apart like this is I'm not like a bad person. I'm not wrong. This is I've it's not about me, right? Like I'm learning, I'm growing. I'm human. Right? And maybe an interaction didn't go well. Or maybe something could have gone differently. What did I learn from that?
Yeah. So important. That's so important when you can shift your your thinking from, from feeling shame overweight, over, like, I'm just even thinking about being out on the street and noticing that I'm having a reaction to something. And, and calling myself on it. But instead of but trying to say, you know, just like go. That's where I try to bring the wonder and the curiosity and just the recognition and just go, wow, look at that. Look how I immediately went there, but I see it, I see him I saw myself do it. And I can and even just that recognition, I think has been so powerful as a learning thing, that I've gotten to know myself so much better through this process. How am I? Yeah, where my stuff is where it lives. That's such a great
way of putting that where my stuff lives. Right. And I'm curious, and I would love like to hear. Linda, your thoughts. I'm curious on that becoming aware, right? Like you said, Oh, I was able to notice this or I'm able to See that? How has that maybe helped with discomfort, help us be able to see those things, see where the stuff lives? Right? Just curious thinking, because as you were talking, Terry, I was like, that is so beautiful. Had you not at some point leaned into discomfort for that learning and growing experience. It may have taken you longer to get to a place to say, oh, look what I noticed.
I think that I think that their jobs overall and my experience, and what I've learned, and the gift of, of learning how to hold things without judging them immediately. I mean, I attribute so much of this to just that, through all of this. And I always say that bibs is a mindset. And so what I think has happened is that by integrating by internalizing by processing all of this I think that's, that's why now instead of it happened, you know, like it happens, like, oh, look, I reacted to whatever. I think that's why I can now look at it with interest. And not with shame.
That's such a beautiful way to put that Terry, look at it with interest, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
Did that answer your question?
It did, I think, I think it did. And I think it's something that for, for us to kind of all think about and consider is, maybe reflect on times where I felt uncomfortable, and what did I learn about myself in that moment? What, what did I learn about the people around me or whatever that particular process was where I felt uncomfortable, and to really be able to do that in a way that releases shame to do that, in a way with curiosity and interest and wonder and not even assign blame, right? So that non weaponized kind of reflection that we have talked about in in the work with bibs before so being able to pause long enough to say, Oh, I'm uncomfortable right now. I'm curious what that's telling me. I wonder what that's telling me. And so I think you did answer and kind of help us think about those things a little bit.
I really appreciate also you talking about the pause? Because I do think people coming into this now do tend to feel overwhelmed, do tend to want an answer. But we did have someone I would think on Tuesday. And I don't remember who it was somebody said something akin to, Oh, I understand that this is about a way of thinking. Which I was just like, Oh,
I was very excited.
I want to I have another question for you, Terry, to go back. Because you were talking about the ABS is a mindset. And I think it's super interesting that you've been able to be with us for four years. And I'm curious when you came in me and I didn't know you. And like when you came in how you see where you were, and where you are today. Like how where that shift in mindset happened or when how you started to think about like, questioning things or thinking differently. It didn't.
It didn't happen as consciously as my imagine. I think what happened was because I was in charge of planning summer I just started to notice that when it was time to do something I had I looked at it differently. Even if I didn't change what I was doing right then I was aware that it was something that maybe we want to change. And so it was just a consciousness of, Oh, I've been looking at this in this way, all this time. And it could be different. And I just, once I realized that, and I think that's kind of the message that we're sending is like, through, you know, a session on tradition. And. And it's almost, I think it's almost a relief to, to name that people to say, you know, we all recognize that the reason that we do this this way, is because that's what we do. I just feel like having those other things kind of whirling around in there. I took them, I took a breath, I took a moment and went, Oh, how can we do that differently? Let's let me talk to some other folks on my committee, or let me talk to, you know, the parks department or whatever? How can this how would we want to do it differently? You know, why are we Why don't we do it this way?
And, you know, tell you, when you are saying that reminds me it makes me think about that, even just asking questions can cause discomfort. And it can be it can be uncomfortable to ask the questions, right? And, and in asking that question, you present an opportunity for an equity pause. And those can be uncomfortable, right. And so I'm just kind of like thinking about as we're engaging, and on this journey of equity, and really wanting to center equity in how we do things and for systemic change in, in our library, summer services, and then hopefully, that's spilling over to other services, is being able to explore that coupling of discomfort with the equity journey and the centering of equity in the work that we do. And I am really curious. And I think that part of the reason it gets challenging or can be can cause a significant amount of discomfort is because if we're really engaging in equity work, and really wanting to send her equity, it does ask us to do a lot of things you've already talked about. It asks us to do some exploration of self, to find that, as you said that stuff right. To, to reflect to really explore how we have been shaped how we have been formed, how we show up, what's it mean, to be in community, just all these different things. So when we're really authentically am deeply invested in an equity journey and in centering equity, we begin to realize that we cannot take ourselves out of that equation, when
Keisha were my head winch was how grateful I am I, Terry, I agree, Babs is a mindset. I also think that is a conversation. And one of the things I'm most grateful about this work that I never expected when we started it in 2020 was the ability to have conversations with people so that I can look at myself and also feel like, Have other people to talk to about these, you know, having conversations about the challenges of bringing equity into systems, all of those kinds of things. So I think I'm taking this a little bit differently. Lakeisha that's where my head went. Because I think when you think about you're on, you're like, yes, we have to look at ourselves, but when you when you're on your own doing that, really. It's intense anyway, but it's even more intense. So now I can say to Terry, hey, Terry, let's talk about this thing. Or Terry, I can rant at you about something, and you might not agree and we can have a conversation about it. Right. So I think that's to me, like, we have to do our own work. But if we can do it with other people who help us understand it even more, like I've learned more about myself through conversations with you Lakeisha than anytime in my life probably right so I don't know. Right?
I think that's important. The name I think you bring up something very important is, is are US individualistic culture, right? Like everything has to be about the individual. And, and I often I don't know how often I've said in the Babs work, but it's, it's both its individual and community, right? So and we want to be able to be in community with folks from an authentic space of like being able to explore ourselves and explore what's going on, within Horus so that we can hold community in a whole nother lightened way.
I remember, at one point being in a session, or where I, and I don't I, you know, obviously, I only have my own lived experience, I don't have the lived experience of anybody else. I remember feeling like my like, like, equity, print, you know, this. Equity doesn't apply to me, because I present as a white woman. So I'm not, you know, what's going on isn't about me. And so I need to be always looking outward? How do my actions or how do the actions of my library or whatever? What am I putting out there? And then I don't remember what happened. Obviously, this was a couple of years ago, not, you know, a month ago. Something happened and I just remember feeling like, I'm a Jewish person. And big, but because I just look like a white lady. There's no recognition of what that feels like. And it threw me, it really threw me. And that I think that I think in talking about equity, if you know that, that you do have these moments of, well, what about me? You know, like, I'm supposed to broaden my thinking, and be aware, and learn new things and learn this new law. Like, the language for me was so new. And I also felt like I was coming to the party so late, you know, like, it was almost embarrassing when I realized, like, oh, I need to read all I need to read stuff, I don't even know understand this. But then it was kind of it was sort of like overwhelming and exhausting. And that was very, you know, obviously, that made me very uncomfortable. There was tremendous discomfort around that. I felt I should be focused on systemically marginalized communities, and I couldn't acknowledge who I was. And that was really hard. Like, I didn't feel entitled to do that. So there was that. So that was that, to me was like this individual made a really huge discomfort, especially at certain times when there was a, you know, clear, clearly a lot of anti semitism going on. But the other thing that popped up in my head right after that, when the conversation shifted to community was, well, what if you, but if you bring empathy and kindness to the conversation, that just can give you your breath back. That can allow that tightness to dissipate some. Because Don't we all want that? And I think bringing that and you know, maybe that's akin to wonder and curiosity. But those were the two words that just came to me was like, first first and foremost was empathy. And then the kindness came after and it was kind of like, okay, you know, we all need that. We all want that. And in doing this work, and understanding what, especially these terms that we teach that are so powerful Right now I am struggling mightily with the term oppression. Because I have tremendous empathy for Palestinians, and I am horrified and terrified by what happened in Israel. And, you know, it's like, how do you bridge? Things like that? I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of empathy lacking. Sometimes, and that's so I just feel like what an important part of equity is empathy. As you were talking,
I was thinking, How often have folks felt that way? And how often do we feel that way? And how much discomfort how uncomfortable it is to feel like, but this doesn't make me like, I don't feel like I belong in this or I don't feel like I am entitled to this space. And I think, and then then the empathy thing. So I'm just coming back, like, how do we hold empathy for ourselves, because if we can do that for ourselves, there's so much that can come from that space. And you're You just reminded me of how important it is for us to all remember that, no matter the system, we've all been impacted, no matter what side of that system we're on, whether we are the target side or the non target side, we have all been impacted. And there's a level of, of discomfort that comes with that there's a level of discomfort that comes in knowing that and holding that. And being able to move through from whichever side of that system that we're on, to be able to acknowledge it and then work through it, heal through it right. And and then begin to be uncomfort trouble as we're navigating that discomfort. Right. And that sounds like they don't go together. But how do we what does it mean, to be comfortable with discomfort? And I'm guessing, and I think that may maybe means different things for all of us. And even for each of us at different points on our own life journey, what it means to be comfortable with discomfort and and as we heal and learn and grow. Maybe we maybe that shifts for us.
Yeah, Keisha, as you were just talking about that one of the things that came to mind was the idea that discomfort is not a bad thing. Right. And so if you're comfortable with discomfort, that's a I mean, it's a good thing in many instances, because it forces us to break something right? Break might not be the right word, but move, move into and then out of whatever the thing is. And that's the other thing I've learned is, I think, is that, you know, if I'm feeling uncomfortable, that's not necessarily bad. I mean, yes, if I'm walking down the street, and someone is about to create some violent act, that's not good. And but if I'm feeling uncomfortable in the work that I'm doing, or often, that's a good thing, because it's showing me I need to be whatever. And so I think that's, as you were just saying that I was thinking, and discomfort has a very negative vibe to it when people talk about it. But when we talk about it, I think we're all looking at it as a positive, right?
Yeah, I think so.
It's like a sign. Yeah. I do. I completely agree that over the course of this process, I had thought of that earlier. Even I'm so glad you brought this up, because the getting comfortable with discomfort is a benefit of this work. That it does shift from being this. Oh, I don't like this to more of Uh huh. Let's look at that. And that's so valuable. And it's not I mean, it's very valuable in Bev's work, but it's just valuable in general.
I think maybe that is a really awesome A way to end. Thank you everyone for listening really happy that you could be a part of this conversation and thank you Terry for joining us. It was great to have you inviting me. It's been awesome for years. Let's make it 44
