Hello architect Nation. I'm Enoch Sears. And this is the show where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for running a more impactful and profitable architectural practice. If you've been frustrated that you can't find the product data that you're looking for, you might be using the wrong search engine. broad searches result in consumer products out of date information and websites that oftentimes may hide or not have the information that you need at your fingertips. If you need specifications, CAD, BIM, etc. are cat.com Is your search engine, find and download the up to date product data you need fast, or cat.com is free requires no registration. So go ahead, try it today. That's our cat Arca t.com. And today I'm joined by the illustrious Alex Gore from f9 Productions and the very popular podcast inside the firm amongst others. Alex, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. You're You're an old friend by this point. Absolutely.
I love I love actually the story about how we met. And it was so beautiful, the way the way that that rolled out. And I think it's a great example of your mindset, which is something we're going to touch on today. The idea of mindset, the idea of changing our thought patterns, how our internal world effects our external world. But do you mind sharing that story about how you came across me and how we first met? And yeah, so I heard if I saw you where I live,
I did, I was visiting my wife's parents, for the first time had to ask him to, you know, if I could marry my wife and all that, and I knew about you, and some I don't know how I knew you're in California. And then I just looked up where you're at, and it was the next town over, you know, it was maybe 25 minutes, something like that. And what's weird is that for some reason, I'm not the most generous person. But like, I was just at Montana, giving an AIA convention, there was three keynote speakers. And I don't know if the guys listen to this or not, but I'm like, I want to give them a gift. Like, I want to get like their speeches. were so cool. I feel like I learned so much. And the same feeling. This was, who knows, was it 10 years ago that we did this probably been most Yeah, I felt that. Yeah. So I just emailed you. And I said I was in the era Do you want to meet up? And you're like, Yeah, let's meet up. And we had coffee. And I gave you a little pen. You know, a nice little pen, because I just wanted to say thank you. And that's how that's how it came to be. And and I feel like even I should take this more like, I should actually go get those guys gifts and send them to them. Often I do not, so I'll tattle on myself. But it's, uh, I feel like it's appreciated. It's kind of like if you ever give a speech in public or teach, you know, a class and people actually ask a question. You feel so good, like, Oh, you're listening, you have an actual question. So knowing that that feels good for me, I want to give that back out.
I love it. I love it. Beautiful. That was that was that was a really great experience. It was cool. And this was before you had all the accolades and the public recognition of the huge personality that you are now you were still a huge guy back then. But you were just a little bit less known.
I think. You're being too kind. You're being too kind. I was, you know, just an architect out of Colorado back then. And I'm an architect out of Colorado right now. I
love it. I love it. Well, as we were talking before this episode got rolling, we were talking about our own personal growth trajectory is kind of catching up on what we've both been up to in our own worlds. One thing that I learned very on our when I started the Business of Architecture, since we're talking 10 years ago, right 10 plus years ago, was I went into my mindset, going into interviewing other architects, consultants, thought leaders, I thought, you know, if I can only figured out what it is that they're doing, then I can replicate their success. So I thought that the key was in acquiring some sort of special knowledge. Like if I just had that puzzle, though, like if I just could unpack the things, what are the ABCDE f g things that I needed to do? And very, very quickly, I suddenly realized that it wasn't about the ABCD things. Like those things were important. And sure they happened, but there was something underneath that. And it was their approach to life. It was the way they saw things. It was their perspective. It was how they viewed life. In other words, their mindset and their thoughts like what they thought about the world. So give you one example, to spark the conversation here. Five or six years ago, I had the opportunity to sit down with my top interview of all time that I've ever wanted to do was like I wanted to get our guests on the podcast. I'm like, Well, I can just get Mr. Gensler on the podcast dude, that would be so epic. He's like that, yeah, heighten of architectural business from what he's created. You know. As a matter of fact, I was out there in your neck of the woods in Denver for the AI convention that year and Art was doing it actually wasn't the ad convention. It was another event that the AI had put on. And an art against her was doing a presentation there. I thought now's the perfect time. So I scheduled I called the office, they hooked me up with an interview, in person interview in there against their Denver office, we kind of were in a little corner. While he was visiting the office, I had an opportunity to interview him. But the one thing that stuck out with me because I'm thinking, how did this guy go from basically being a sole practitioner, to having a company with 4000 plus employees, 40 offices around the world doing the kind of work they're doing? It's impressive. Now, of course, there's a number of there was a lot of fortune that happened in that. In other words, like when he started his practice, they went through several booms, they went through the office and tears boom, which was his niche. So certainly, there was some fortunate winds behind his sails that push that forward. But what I know is there was a lot of other architects at the same time that's had those very same fortunate wins. But what was the difference? That allowed Gensler to grow into the behemoth that it was, as opposed to these other firms that stayed small and identified was one simple thing. It was that art was not afraid to let go. Okay, so what do you got he valued he valued business. And whenever he wanted to grow the practice, he did it, he wanted to give people opportunities. He's not, he's not an ego guy. Like if you sit down with them, he's a tall tower and commanding presence, but he's very, like, when I talked to him, I was just some unknown podcaster. To him, he didn't know who the heck I was, maybe I was someone from a local TV show. Here's the guy. He's the founder of a billion dollar architectural business. He's accomplished a lot in his life. And he was just very unassuming, very down to earth. You know, he's like a salty those type of guy. And I could tell in the way he talked with me. So as he recounted the growth of the firm, he talked about how people would like people to kind of reach that point in the firm where they wanted to grow on the hit a glass ceiling. And he'd be like, hey, you know what we're, um, this was when he was in San Francisco, like, yeah, we're doing a project down in Denver, what if we just send you out there start up a new office. And so they kind of grew like that, because he was willing to give people growth opportunities. So the key here is that it's not it's not the tactic would be sending someone in starting a new office. But that's not what drove it, what drove it was art's inner essence of wanting to empower other people. So it was his thought and his mindset around that.
That's amazing. Let me see. Yeah, it was these guys H DG architecture. It's a very one point is similar. They're not as big. They're a smaller, firm. But one of the ladies in the office said I'm sick of people putting their regular furniture in our awesome, amazing architecture. And I'm paraphrasing, you know, it was more nicely than that said, and she had the idea that she wanted to start an acquisition and furnishing and fixturing, you know, portion of the business. And the leadership said, Yes, we will help create it, fold it in, you know, you get a percentage of it, and we'll make we'll make this happen. So it's the same thing of just empowering and then knowing yourself as an employee in the firm, you can bring these ideas to your leadership. And if you have good leadership, they should allow you to pursue those, they should be able to let go of where you're at, to let you grow into what you can become.
Absolutely, you know, and like you said, it's the, it's the internal operating system of these leaders, right? If they wanted to hold the reins so tightly, if they didn't trust her to bring that business forward, if they felt threatened by it, or if they thought it was a stupid idea, you know, let's face it, some of them probably thought it wasn't a great idea. But they said, Hey, let's do it anyways, because their trust in her and their desire to help someone grow was greater than their own doubts. Yep. Yep. And that
goes back into okay. So the, I mentioned before I was in Montana, at the AIA billings sort of convention. And one thing I talked about was the concept of theory, you know, in running a business theory before principles, principles, before processes, processes before tactics, right. Because I have to judge when someone brings an idea to me or doing something, how does that fit in the reverse? Like, if it's a tactic, how does that fit into a process? If it's a process? does it align with our principles? And do our principles align with the theory of how we operate? And I feel like that's where essentially it's it's hard for business owners to let go because they might, someone might bring up something. And they might say, this doesn't align. And I have to make a business aligned because if not, it's just going to be too hard, too chaotic, too scattered. And I say that as encouragement is that what if your idea does align you're just not presenting it in the correct way or they aren't being able to process it? So if if your business culture does have practices and theories, it's a good way to say, hey, this aligns with what you're doing. And I'm just taking it in in a new direction or a bigger direction or expanding it. Yeah,
great point of value, or you were talking earlier, and we were kind of talking about our own mindset shifts over the past few years. And you kind of brought up this great point, he said, you know, the crazy thing about it is that when we change internally our way of thinking, no one around us sees that. Right? So we could have some massive shift in who we are. But like other people, we're still the same person. Yep. And you mentioned something about an experience about that.
Yeah. Yeah. So I'll give a business experience. Right. So So Lance, and I were talking about, it was a focused on, on on design for, like, this specific area that we're going, and we talked and, you know, we're good. And, and he kept he kept bringing it up. He kept bringing it up, even like months later. And I had to sit them down and said, I go, What are you? What are you talking about? Like, why are you bringing this this up? I go, do I need to copy you on emails? You know, do I need to you know, like, so that you see that this has happened and like, I made this shift months and months ago, and there's been many moments in my life, where like, I make a shift, or someone else makes a shift. And we don't announce it. So like, it was actually a little literal question to Lance, like, am I not letting you know? Because imagine, imagine that, you know, like, this was, I was more Christian in high school than in college got less Christian, and now, you know, mature more on the Christian route. But I had friends who saw me in college after college, that were my high school friends, and I say a cuss word. And they're like, Oh, I thought you were the Christian guy, you know? And every time you Yeah, every time you make this, these changes, I just had a personal thought with with, you know, family and all that stuff. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna treat things like this. Right? And I, let's say it's playing more with your kids. In this one, I don't even know if I told my wife that I'm focusing more on playing with my kids. She might see it, you know, but, but what what if, what if I made that mindset shift that I was gonna play more with my kids, but I wasn't able to implement it yet. Unless this wasn't a contentious issue with our relationship, it was just something I wanted to do. But what if it was, and she was like, You need to play more with the kids. And I already made up the mindset and me knowing me, I already put it in the calendar. And I can see that in two weeks, I'm gonna be more free. And that I actually I'm going to surprise them. And I'm going to come home on a day that I'm not supposed to come home, right. But you don't tell me this? I don't tell everyone, every time I make a mind shift life shift in my life. I don't I don't text you, Nick, and be like, hey, just let you know. But you know, I've changed this.
The Yankees are going down the pot, man. I've abandoned them. We're going on?
Yep, yep. So I want to know what you think about that. Like? Do you think that that's true with most people? And what do you think the premise is true? That people are shifting and just don't tell people? And then we're all living in these people's paths? You know? Yeah,
absolutely. And you know, one of the one of the most challenging things, if you're on a fast track of growth, if you're really accelerating in your life, I'm speaking to our listeners, I'm speaking to you, Alex, but also our listeners, if you're, if you're on a path where things are massively changing for you, because maybe there's a belief system change, maybe there's a different way of looking at business, maybe you have a new fire under your ass, because you have some passion that's coming forth, and you're like, Man, I gotta pursue something different. This isn't working for me, like this is happening internally. Or let's just say in a relationship, let's say that you mature as a person, you have a different way of showing up with your spouse or your partner, you know, well, oftentimes, the unfortunate, difficult, challenging thing about growth is that other people still see us as that previous version of ourselves. And they treat us as that previous version. And the power of someone treating you as something else is very, very powerful. As a matter of fact, you know, they've shown sociologists and psychologists have shown that if you treat me a certain way, Alex, I will kind of settle into more of that way of being. Yep. Right. So if you treat me as aggressive as mean, I'm going to be more aggressive and mean, if you treat me as smart and brilliant, I'm going to rise into my smartness and my brilliance if you do in an authentic way. So the challenge here is that if we're trying to change sort of character flaws that we have, or different or bad ways of being that we've been in the past, and now we're trying to be like a new person, with our teams, with our, with our spouses, with the people we care about, will show up more like I'm a different person today. And they're like, No, you ain't. You're the same person you were last year and they're gonna treat you that way. There's like the is inertia I found that like, because it can get discouraging when those people still treat us as the other version of ourselves. So that's, that's how I've experienced it, Alex, yourself,
I think, I think actually, this could be a huge issue in business. So imagine that you have 10, people 20, it doesn't matter, you have 100 people working for you. And someone's going to take the initiative. And let's say they're a year or two years into the firm, they learned from you how to do stuff, obviously, in the beginning, like, you just need to intake and just understand what's going on, and then execute. And let's say you make the internal changes, hey, I'm going to start taking a leadership role. And maybe, maybe you start emailing the client more or doing stuff like that. And maybe the first five times you do it, that person lets you Nick, you're in charge, like, you kind of override them. And not mainly, but you just, like, take over the conversation, or, or, or just add on more tasks, like let's say, they said, like, hey, you know, landscape architect, Do this, do this, and you just override them, all of a sudden, just like you said, they just get pushed back into, I'm just a worker bee. I'm just a worker bee. And it's probably, like, they didn't communicate that if they would have said to you, you know, hey, just let you know, do you feel like it's the right time for me to start taking on more responsibility and taking on more of that communication? You would probably say, Great, awesome, awesome. But instead, you are treating them like their past self, you know, just like any one of us can and often do, do. I love it,
I love it. And, and it, you know, brings up something so important for cultures, I'm glad you brought the business back into it. Because like trends, like honesty, honesty, and in a company culture is essential and lack of honesty will kill a company culture. So in your example, let's say then, you probably both you and I, in our past experiences in employment have experienced that, where we, we start taking more initiative, we start doing things that are a little outside our comfort zone, we start trying to exert some more leadership. And then we get I don't want to say pushed back down. But basically, we don't get noticed. And our superiors the people above us continue with the old ways of operating, we're just like, kind of taken away, or maybe. How did you put you put it so eloquently, overriding us, you know, unknowingly, unknowingly, just because they're, you know, they've always done it, you know, it's just, it's just the old pattern. Nope, we've done nothing wrong with it. Right. But from from our perspective, that can feel it can feel just very discouraging. It can feel disheartening. It can feel like there's no there's no room for me at the company, I can't grow. Now, here's the thing, though, in a powerful culture, if that's happening, the person like the job captain, this was a job Captain project architect. Yeah, the job Captain could go to the project architect and have an honest conversation, which is simply this. Hey, Alex, I could we have a second to meet? And the like, okay, great meet, okay, great, Hey, I just want to share something with you. And, and this is just all on me. I don't mean any offense by this, but I value our relationship, I want I want to, you know, be the best team member I can. And I want to let you know that a while ago, I decided to, you know, kind of take on more responsibility. And that was a decision that I made. I didn't communicate that to you. But recently, when you overrode what I did in that email to landscape architect, you kind of switch that around, you know, that that hurt my feelings? You know, it felt like I was being overridden, it felt like, so I just want to add, just want to have a chat with you about that. Yep. These kinds of conversations generally do not happen in business. They don't, they don't.
And you could say, just let you know. I wrote that to the landscape architect, you know, and you chimed in, and I just want to let you know that I'm trying to do this. And that is it okay, for me to keep doing this. And I can then and here's, here's the thing, too, because it's so hard, people are getting better and better, but it's hard to take criticism, right? So like a good way, a good way to do it for that person would be do you want me to come to you first and while I'm transitioning, to make sure if you have any input and then can I write it, you know, because they might have Hey, make sure the landscape architect doesn't forget about the stonework or you know, whatever it is, right. And then from a leaders perspective, here's what's hard about it too is you have to be okay with at least many failures, right? So for example, a project that was going on you know, I asked the team Hey, what did what did you want to do and this was the construction thing and they're like, well, we want to do it this way. And I had a different way that I wanted to do it because it was going to be more structurally sound. It was bookcase work, it wasn't wasn't anything too serious. And it was for our own own area, right. Anyways, if I dictated absolutely everything, every fastener every connection point every whatever. I'm going to have to do that forever. I'm gonna have to do that forever, right? And they won't know. And I am making it quicker and easier for them, like, Hey, do it this way instead of that way, right? But now, it's like, oh, they did it their way, it was less dirty, maybe next way, not only should I make it more sturdy, but I should think about that as a principle. You know, like, what is the strongest way to do this? You know? And the other way too, is I could, I could just say, you know, what, I just always need to dictate the fasteners of a bookcase and all of that. How, you know, like, okay, is that is that my ceiling? Then? You know, is that is that where I need to be involved in every project? Probably not. You know, probably, yeah, yeah,
I can imagine you pulling your hair out, you know, just Okay, once again, this is the fastener we're using here. What fasteners would you use in that application, by the way,
I would use all threads, stick it right into the stud and cut off the hex and then put the bookcase right on top of it.
Beautiful, beautiful. There's a little if anyone wants to chime in on the technical feasibility of this approach, you know, email podcast at business of architecture.com. Yeah, I
just don't even buy you Nick will take all you take.
Yeah, you know, it two teams come up here, right communication. And also, what I find it lacking in business nowadays is like a real conversation about about emotions and like emotional impact to things where emotions really matter. And we tend to make business so dry. But what happens in that regard is that there's no emotional connection between people. Right now, I don't know how I phrased it just a couple minutes ago, but if I was speaking with the superior, it might be a bit confronting or might direct, but I might say something along the lines of Yeah, you know, that that hurt my feelings. And I know that wasn't your intent, but I just want to let you know that, you know, I'm kind of hurting over here. Yep. Yep. And we take that approach with people that opens up opportunity for powerful conversations. Yep.
Um, can I tell you one thing I, I'm trying how I'm trying to think about mindset, and mindset shifts? Yeah, let's hear it. And then I would love your take on it. Because I think it becomes a theoretical, you know, like, oh, what's your mindset? You know, what is that? Yeah. And think about it as like, I do. This is just internal, and we're just talking is, what's your position? Or positioning? So like, everyone knows football? everyone kind of knows how the army works, right? Like, if I'm going to mind shift, am I now becoming, you know, the sergeant of a small squad? Am I becoming like the lieutenant of four squads? You know, am I becoming the captain of a battalion? Right? Whatever analogy you want to use, you know, football, am I just the tackle? Am I the runningback? Am I the quarterback? Am I the positions coach? Now? You know, like, am I? That's a great one, you know, like, Are you the tight ends coach that's trying to now be the offensive coordinator? Are you the offensive coordinator that's trying to become the head coach. So think about the difference of roles of an offensive coordinator, and all the X's and O's in the head coach knows that. And they might, they might even call plays, but the head coach has to deal with media marketing, players doing crazy stuff, ownership, leading the other people leading, not just the offensive coordinator, but the defensive coordinator who's below them who's gonna hire when they leave, you know, like, so that's what that's an easier avenue for me to think about is how am I going to shift my mindset? How am I going to shift my position? What's an analogy that I'm going to shift my position into? Is it is it a more loving father? Is it a is it a better husband? Is it a expanding growth firm? Or is it is it a quality niche boutique for like, what position? Am I going to put myself in? And what? What mindset? Do I have to have to execute that correctly? Yeah, beautiful. I
love it. I mean, you know, just in terms of being like a more loving father said, I have the I want to have the position of being a more loving Father, I need to figure out what stories or thought patterns do I need to tell myself to actually be a more loving father. And you can reverse engineer those, and then you can figure out what those are. So for instance, let's say that I currently believe that the best way I can show up as a loving father is providing for my family. And so I'm working 10 hours a day, my family rarely sees me, you know, but hell, I'm being a great father. You
could and that could be an absolute answer at that stage in your life. Right? Could it not going? Well,
yeah. Kids, how are they feeling? Yeah, like, from whose perspective? Do you want to be the loving father? No,
no, I agree. And I think you are going to there are different levels and we could say quote, unquote, higher level, but if you're extremely poor, and you have no money whatsoever, and And, and no one can get a job. And maybe this isn't a different economic season, you know than it is now. And you're like, I'm the dad, I'm gonna work 14 hours a day, my wife is gonna stay at home and take care of the kids. And it's not the best. But other places are other people are begging for food and in shelters, and we are in a home. And that's my job right now. And then later, you might change positions and change mindsets, you grew in that firm, right? Now. It's like, oh, now I can manage now I can level up. So maybe I only have to work eight hours, and I can come home and coach baseball, you know, whatever it might be.
Beautiful. And both of those examples are driven by a core belief or a story about what should be done in any circumstance. Right? Yeah. So for instance, the example you just gave the story is that I'm going to be a better father by providing my family, so don't have to live in a shelter. Right? totally valid. That's valid. So going back to our main topic today, our stories determine our destinies are an internal thoughts, the way we think about things I love, I never thought about it the way you did, though, this idea of position, I'm going to have to utilize a great frame for it. Like with roles and like how to shift and all that is fantastic. Awesome. Love it. Love it. So our invitation for you listener today is simply this, you know, wherever you're at in your career, what what I've seen, and Alex, you can confirm or deny this. But what I've seen is that your acceleration, your growth, of your practice of your business of your own career is only going to go as fast as your mindset expands.
I absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. What do you think? What's the vehicle for accelerating that or growing into a bigger mindset?
Yeah, there's there's a lot of different modalities. And one of the most powerful that I've experienced, I mean, there's a lot there's The Work of Byron Katie is great. People can look that up. It's fantastic for rewiring your stories, as the work of Tony Robbins is fantastic. I just had a guy on the podcast earlier today that I recorded interview, which will probably be live by the time we do this. But the reason why our thoughts stay the same is because our brains about the time we're 18 years old, the neural pathways, they stopped forming new connections, they just rely on the existing connections and the existing pathways, which means that if we have the same pathways, we have the same thoughts. Okay. So something drastic needs to happen to change the pathways, that drastic thing can be, it needs to include emotion. Because if you have a massive emotion, the emotion will shake up your brain chemistry and cause you to allow new brain connections, for instance, your dad dies, and suddenly now you have a new lease on life because you're like, Well, I don't want to waste the rest of my life. I'm a complete shift here, like we see change
from 14 hours, from going to 14 hours to eight. Yeah, exactly.
You know, it's like, boom, because there's some grief, some emotion, something powerful that happened. Now, sometimes life just hands us these things. And that's like Grace, right? It's just grace, I have no control over it just something happens in my life that causes a massive shift. One thing that psychiatrists are discovering now is that psychedelic drugs or medicines, as they call them, can do this very same thing in a therapeutic setting, or with the right set and setting because they shake up your brain chemistry in a positive way. And they allow you to create new neural brain connections. So this is very cutting edge right now. It's like new within the past five to 10 years, this has really started to explode. But if you want to change your stories, the fastest way you can look into psychedelics, and pair that up with a conscious intention of identifying the stories that aren't serving you, and then replacing them with new programming or stories that do.
Absolutely, yeah. Where do you go get this? This?
Yeah. When are we going to get to get on do some psychedelics, man?
Did you tell me but there's
How about? Let's do that off the air. Okay, if I know. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
All right, Alex, good having you here. Awesome. Thanks a lot. It was great catching up. And
that's a wrap. Oh, yeah. One more thing. If you haven't already, head on over to iTunes and leave a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. If you've been frustrated that you can't find the product data that you're looking for, you might be using the wrong search engine. broad searches result in consumer products out of date information on websites that oftentimes may hide or not have the information that you need at your fingertips. If you need specifications, CAD, BIM, etc. are cat.com Is your search engine, find and download the up to date product data you need fast or cat.com is free requires no registration. So go ahead, try it today. That's Arquette, ARCA. t.com. The views expressed on the show by my guests do not represent those The host and I make no representation promise guarantee pledge warranty contract bond or commitment except to help you conquer the world QRP DM
