Building Community Through Abolition and Social Justice #279

12:24AM Aug 12, 2024

Speakers:

Desa Daniel

Keywords:

abolition

students

counseling

feel

systems

community

talking

field

ethics

counselor

social justice

dismantle

folks

conversation

profession

thinking

work

focused

oppressive systems

learn

Music.

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

All right. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm super, super excited today to meet with Darius Green, who is one of my colleagues and now my friend. I feel like I've made you be my friend, but that happens to most people, so don't feel bad. That's fine. That's just what I do. And I really wanted to bring Darius on to talk about the work he's been doing and what he is going on, but also really just how great you've pushed the narrative of changing it up and like, making our elders really uncomfortable, which is, like, totally my thing, as listeners will know, but I just want to kick off first with, who are you? So tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of what work you do.

Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a hard question to talk about myself, but yeah, my name is Darius green, a counselor educator right now working at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs as an assistant professor. Um, I guess just some main things about me professionally, I got started in the field of counselor education just because I really enjoyed and was passionate about teaching, and want to really be more involved as a leader, and want to develop myself as a leader. Wasn't really a skill set that felt like I had when I was getting my master's degree. That just kind of took off as I, like, started learning more about race and started finding my voice in my lane regarding race and racism and anti racism. And so with that, I think I'll just describe myself as abolitionist, someone who really wants to challenge oppressive systems, really in any context, definitely in terms of the prison industrial complex, but also within the realm of counseling in the mental health field. And so yeah, I do a little bit of research and scholarship around abolition as a social justice practice with a mostly with a focus on policing and police violence, but also looking at like online contexts and things like that. So I think that's a broad overview of who I am and what I what I do.

Awesome. Okay, so we're just gonna start super basic for all some of us who need to get caught up. So let's just start first and foremost with what is abolition and like, why that work? Like, why focus on abolition?

Yeah, that's a great question, and I appreciate asking that question. Something that I feel like is needed in our field is really treating social justice almost like how we like treat theory and counseling, like I feel like a lot of people will say, like, Yeah, I'm for social justice, but sometimes it feels hollow or empty or like missing something. And so with that, abolition is a social justice Praxis that is rooted in really challenging carceral systems, but actively dismantling commercial systems and replacing those with systems and practices and communities that are rooted in care, healing and transformation, really looking to undo, heal and transform and repair the harm that's been caused by many oppressive and carceral systems in the context of the United States abolition, and has a root and focus and emphasis on the history of chattel slavery and how that has been reformed, to what we now experience as a prison industrial complex, regarding policing, prisons and jail systems and things like that, and also how that's intertwined with our legal system and so abolition. It's really focused on building community. It's focused on dismantling hierarchy and building ways of being that are community focused, that are focused on accountability for harm, that are focused on transformative justice and things like that, really as gonna create the end to this, this of progressive and carceral systems.

Yeah, that was excellent. And something I really appreciate you saying is that, like in counseling, we really should think about social justice as a theory. I. And it makes me think I've been having a lot of conversations with black women in Higher Education recently, and really talking about how, like, social justice is a verb. Like, these things we're doing is actually they're like, supposed to be verbs. Like, they're supposed to be action behind them, not just like, random statements in time of like, oh, I kind of dabble in this. Like you either are you aren't doing the work, and then it's like, when we think about it as theory, then if social justice is theory, then it should be ingrained in every single thing we're doing every day, not just like something like we pick up when it's convenient to us.

Yeah, I totally agree. That feels like the norm. It almost feels like it's performative. It's like the right thing to do is to say, Hey, I'm for social justice, because that's what's expected. But yeah, social justice is a verb. It's not just something that you profess or something that it's not like just holding up a Black Lives Matter sign I was actually acting on that in meaningful and tangible ways with others.

Yeah, and so one of your recent articles that you just published in the professional counselor, talking about how, like, You're, like, making a case for abolition in counseling, but really, like, focused also on addiction counseling. And I'm wondering, like, how do we, how do we, like, fix it? Like, I know that's kind of a big question, but like, how do we include abolition as a right and not like a byproduct? Does that make sense? Like, how do we include it as like, the first line of defense and not like an afterthought? Maybe that's a little bit better of a question.

Yeah, that's a good question. It kind of is tied into why I, like, chose to focus it on substance use. And part of it was like I was interested in that, but also feel like if I wrote what an abolition counseling actually looks like, it would really look at questioning like the core of our field, and for us to critically question, is this a system worth preserving? Is it something that can be reformed, or is it something that is carceral? Is tied into carceral systems, and so in the field of like substance use counseling, the role of counselors is definitely intertwined with the legal system. It's intertwined with policing. At least in my experience, the majority of the clients that I've had for substance use throughout my career have all been court ordered the treatment just kind of highlighting that interconnectedness. And so in terms of, like, how do we make abolition like, the first line of defense? Honestly, first thing is like, I feel like people need to read. I remember back in 2020, I had first, had always, like, vaguely heard of and knew a little bit about abolition, but I hadn't really, like learned what it was. I had, like, a little bit of hesitance with it, until, think it's actually Dr Rochelle Joe, current editor of the professional counselor, posted something on social media. Was just a book that was like, Right Right place, right time. And then I got interested in reading about abolition, particularly in a non academic kind of format. It was, we do this till we free us by Marian Cabo. And from there, I think that it just kind of made things click, like, when things, when systems are operating as they are, like, it made me like, critically question, like, what's the foundation of that system? So I think, like, a first step is first like, second step, actually, after reading, is to, like, critically question, what is counseling as a system in a field, on paper? And if we look at literature and definitions on like what counseling is, particularly look at like the American Counseling Association, how it defines counseling. It's something that many people will be drawn towards. It's focused on wellness. The definition also seems to focus on like social justice and things like that, and helping people. But when we look at like the actual practice and how this field is like, situated within larger systems, I think of sort of that second thing is to like, yeah, critically question, what is the nature of our field? How do we play a role in other carceral systems? How do we play a role in social dominance and control? And that probably not probably it definitely leads to some uneasy feelings as we kind of, like, look at the reality of like, what we're doing. And so I think it really involves some active deconstructing of what we think about in terms of what counseling traditionally has been and what it could be, and really questioning ourselves, like, is this something that needs to exist more further? Or can it be like expanded or reformed? Or is this something that needs to be dismantled and something new created, something that is non oppressive, something that is community focused, and something that is sort of rooted in healing, as opposed to maybe just covid? With or getting by with oppressive systems? I don't know if that answered the question, but no, that

was perfect. And you really just had me thinking about just the ins and out and, like, interconnected of our profession, like, not just as Counselor Educators, but as counselors as well. Of it's almost like, as a counselor educator, I feel like I am still hope, right? Like I'm like, we believe in people's opportunity to change, like we focus on a non medical model approach, which is like, why counseling was formed on, really, like a humanistic theory, right? Like counseling came out of humanism because psychology felt a little bit too medical for folks, but like, we haven't actually changed anything, like we changed the language, but like you said, like if most of your clients are mandated, or like you're tied to systems of oppression, even if You're trained from, like, an anti racist, anti black, right? Like, if you're trade from, how do we make sure we're uprooting these systems, but then you're contributing back to the system and the work you're doing then, yeah, I feel like one. I just think about, no wonder there's so much burnout, because it's like, you go into the profession thinking it's different than what it actually is, because I told you it was different. So that's on us. But then also, we as educators are not pushing to change the system either, right? So like we're still, it just feels like we're just moving around pond pieces and like, calling it different stuff.

Yeah, I would agree. And even as educators, like many of us don't, we're not incentivized to like, speak truth or strictly question the nature of our field. Yeah, it could feel a little weird to be like, Oh yeah, here's the actual field of what you're getting into. You might not like it, and that might turn some students away, or there might be a fear that we're turning students away. And I think we need to get past that fear, and like they'll critically inform students what they're getting into. And I would also say that like, systems actively reward people who sort of conform and preserve the structure and integrity of oppressive systems, whether it be academia, whether it be the field of counseling or other mental health professions or even more broadly, bigger institutions in the United States that we operate with.

Yeah, and as you're talking like kind of two things you said that stuck out to me. So first, it's like there's a fear of turning students away and then that, like, how these systems are bit built, are actually rewarding certain people, right? For like, not talking, not speaking up, or talking out. Um, but I'm also like, it just makes you come back to our code of ethics. It's like, if we're not informing students of what they're getting ourselves into then it's like, are we really upholding our code of ethics? Like, I don't know. Maybe that's too much on a Tuesday morning, but I'm just like, I just like, what is our duty to our future colleagues in the profession? And then, like, how do we live with ourselves when we're like, lying to ourselves and others?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's an important discussion. Definitely looking at ethics, that's a really big, important thing to focus on, like, with the topic of abolition, and for me, what I always think about, like, what do people use ethics for? Certainly, for resolving ethical and navigating ethical dilemmas regarding clinical work or with any official roles and functions, but like, as you're pointing out, yeah, I would say we do have a ethical duty. When I think about, like, what does abolition look like in terms of clinical work that I do, I make sure that I fully inform my clients of like, the limbs of confidentiality, not just in the interpersonal sense of working with someone, but also like, in the sense of like a court can or court related system, or individuals who work within a court system can subpoena notes and that can be used against a client. I want to make sure that, like my clients are fully informed of that, so that they know if they wouldn't actually participate in therapy. I think we could take that same approach with our students, so that they know, like, what are the contemporary issues that are that we're facing in the field? What is the actual nature of our field? And I think that that conversation needs to be had beyond just the people who at least the context of Counselor Educators, beyond just the people who teach the like one for a multiculturalism course. I think that needs to be something that's taught and integrated across the curriculum, yeah, so that students are like fully informed. Like, it's actually really insidious to push students through a program, to put them into a field, and then for them to realize that, hey, actually this image of what I learned. Counseling program is not completely the image and the structure of like, what I'm actually doing as a professional. And also on the topic of ethics, I think, how do we I think I mentioned this a couple minutes ago, if not, how do we like approach and utilize ethics? I know for myself as a master's and doctoral student, I know the concept of like mandatory and aspirational ethics was certainly presented, and I've noticed a lot of people approach code of ethics as almost like this mandatory legalistic almost treating it like a legal document, so using it in a way to police other professionals. And so I feel like a lot of people are maybe stuck there, rather than looking at the aspirational ethics and our duties to fully inform people, our students and our colleagues of what the nature of this field is and what social justice could actually mean for Our roles and function as counselors and Counselor Educators,

yeah, and like, I just, I'm so excited about this because we're covering so much, so I kind of, I want to loop back and we've covered several things and make sure we spend a little bit time on them. So the first thing you said was, like, abolition looks like fully informing abolition looks like fully informed consent. And I was just like, I just got goosebumps, because it's like to really tell people what they're getting into and to allow them to make a real decision. Then creates, in my it, for me, it creates so much, one vulnerability, but then also, like, transparency in the actual process. It's like, if our clients, our students, our colleagues and people, rather, are fully informed on, like, what's happening, like, if you always know at all points what's going to happen, then I think that takes it removes so much resistance, because it allows folks to actually, like, fully be bought into the process, right? Like, it's harder for me to say didn't know when you fully let me know what I'm getting into

Yeah, and I think that's like, at the heart of abolition, something that's really important, particularly interpersonal relationships and in communities, like when harm does occur, really focusing on accountability for that harm and also repairing that harm, which I think are pretty central skills for us as counselors. And as you're pointing out, like if we don't fully inform our clients, and then something pops up later on down the road that we didn't inform them about, that's going to create a rupture. And for me, I'd rather like, from the very start, minimize the potential for easily avoidable ruptures. And, yeah, I noticed that. And it's also not like a hard process, like for me, usually it's a very simple process, like I lay out with clients the limits of confidentiality. Standard limits of confidentiality. Make sure that I really emphasize sort of the limits that our legal system can place on confidentiality, particularly if I know that my client, if I have any information about them having a legal history or potential involvement with the legal system in the future. In addition to that, like, instead of just like, having them sign off on something or check off something, or via just breezing through, like, informed consent, I would like just give a plain, simple, open ended question, what is confidentiality? What's your understanding of confidentiality? What's your understanding of the limits of confidentiality? As opposed to me just dictating it, I want to know, like, how are they processing and making sense of it. Certainly I'll share my little spiel, but I really want to invite them into the process so that they can actually ask me questions, so that they know how they can show up. And I think that really just communicates, on my end to the client, that hopefully what I'm trying to communicate is that I'm someone that you can trust, or hopefully I can be someone that can be someone that you can put some trust in, or at least that you can gage how much trust you want to put in. I think that helps

build rapport. Yeah, and it makes me think, right, like, as we started, you talked about your passion for teaching, and it's almost like, even in client work and like with students, there's always this like underlying like, teaching mentorship, both like peer and supportive mentorship, model of like, of not just like, do you understand what I'm telling you, but like, give it back to me and how you comprehend it. And I think that change in conversation makes it feel like, like abolition is almost a teaching method as well. Of like, it's not just, are you in community with me? Yes or no. It's like, what do you understand about our community and you being in our community, right? And so it's not just like, do you understand my perspective? It's like, tell. Me how you perceive our community and what's happening?

Yeah, I like that connection that you made it. It's like, yeah, that's a core value of hide into like, transformation. We can't really allow someone to transform if we just kind of put them in a little box that's has a lot of very strict boundaries, but if we actually invite people to put them in a place where they can actually transform authentically, where they can show up and they can share their lack of knowledge on things. I think that, yeah, that allows us to actually, like mentor people, that allows us to teach, and that allows us to be in, like, true community, rather than almost in a hierarchy.

Yeah, and I, I love that you said hierarchy as well. Because, like, as you're talking, I'm also thinking, right? Like, it's not just like, Do you know what I'm telling you? It's also like, in the process of you, in the process of you letting me know where you stand, like, let me reset this, in the process of you telling me your comprehension, you're also letting me know like about yourself, right? So you're letting me know, like your expertise, what you know, like how this sits with you, right? So rather than me just making the assumption that you don't know anything, and I'm telling you what you should know, it opens a conversation to say, like, I'm allowing you your own autonomy to teach me as well, and so it feels a much more collaborative conversation. And I think that's what you're talking about in terms of, like, not just like, how does abolition show up in counseling, but like, are we really creating collaborative community in the mental health work we're doing?

Yeah, and I think part of the abolition work is ripping down some of those hierarchies in our interpersonal relationships and how we communicate with people we and yeah, it's not really hard to do, but like, particularly when we have some position of power, whether it's a supervisor in terms of a supervisor, supervisor relationship, as a counselor in terms of the counselor client relationship, or even, like, the educator and the student, Professor kind of relationship. For not like being attentive to like how we hold and build power, we can very easily, like, just come across as the expert and not really provide people opportunity to show up as human beings who have room and capacity to grow. It also doesn't give us, like the room or capacity to grow, because we're not experts. I don't know everything. I don't know everything about abolition and just inviting other people to share who they are, where they stay, and what their current knowledge that is really allows me to learn, to grow myself. I know for myself as a teacher like I'm always learning from my students, I have, sometimes students who are way more advanced or adept in certain aspects of abolition or other social justice theories or practices than I am, and I just if I was always presenting as the expert or this whole expert in the room, I'd never really learn or be able to grow or actually be in alignment with My own values for abolition.

Yeah, yeah, that's such a powerful statement, right? Because I think, in our profession when, and I'm like, connecting it right back to you said, like, how do we approach ethics, and really thinking about it as aspirational ethics, rather than, like, law degree of like, like, yes or no, right? Because we know, and in lots of cases, ethics is operates in the gray. It's not actually black or white, like it's very much in the gray, and it's always up to interpretation. However, if we're not aware of our power and privilege, then that interpretation is always at the detriment of the marginalized, right? So it's like if we think about ethics only in terms of, like, how do I use this to get what I want? Or, like, how do I leverage my power instead of like, ethically? How do we support the communities we serve? Then community is always othered, and it's never actually the focus of our ethical like, our ethical guidelines.

Yeah, I really love how you put that with if we, like, treat ethics out like laws basically like they're going to operate and function just as our legal system does, which is going to marginalize? I haven't say it doesn't just marginalize. I'd say partially built to marginalize marginalized, minoritized communities and oppressed communities,

yeah, and it makes me think, right, like as cancer educators and the students we work with and and I actually was having a conversation with one of my friends about this, who teaches in ethnic studies, and she made a comment that still sucks out To me is she was like, Oh, I feel like students are always trying to like one up us, or like our students are always trying to, like, take advantage of us. And I remember telling her I was just like, I just don't think folks are that smart. Like, I really don't think right, like, I don't think in the grand scale. Of all of the stuff you have going on that your goal is to, like, cheat on your multicultural paper. Like, that's just hard for me to believe. Instead, I think folks genuinely come from a place as they think that they can make time and place to finish stuff right, especially for students like, they genuinely believe that if they pull one all nighter, or they're able to, like, do one thing, that they could get the assignment done. But I'm like, you couldn't do the assignment in 12 weeks. Like, and I'm like, by looking at a student or a colleague or someone from the stance of like, they're trying to screw me over, then that already puts us like, on opposite ends of the argument, rather than like in collaboration. Of like, how do we make sure you're successful and we're successful as a whole, rather than like, this is a you problem and like, I don't want it to be a me problem.

Yeah, I feel like that many of us can find that, myself included, we have to, like, actively question, like, what are we like, fearful of? Like a student taking advantage of? What do we have that? And certainly there can be certain students who are manipulative, who are looking to take advantage. But still, we can humanize them and, like, understand, like, what are they actually doing? What's like the function of their behavior? Why are they doing it? And actually engage in conversation with them, as you suggest, with colleagues, kind of venting, ranting, kind of putting the finger at the students. And so, yeah, I think that's a really great point. We can definitely, like, invite students to have conversations and, like, dismantle some of those immediate assumptions that, like, our students are just trying to get over on us, or just trying to find the easy way out. And if that is actually the case, that's our job is like professors to, like, mentor and support students, to learn and grow, to kind of show them, like, okay, yeah, this might be what you're doing right now. I know that's a conversation around, like, use of AI in classes. To use coursework and a fear that many professors have, but like, what is our role in, like, actually mentoring students so that they can sort of critically engage in, like, their own learning process? How can we, like, support their growth and development rather than, almost, like, criminalize them or demonize them in some way?

Yeah, and it just right, like, when we're thinking about, like, our ethical standard as professors, I'm also thinking about like, it feels too often our purpose is tied to gatekeeping. So it's like the purpose of me being a professor is to gate like is to decide whether or not you deserve to be in this profession. And I think by like that stance alone, then like there is no abolition, because it's like the only stance is like you're either Are you aren't. And then that, in a sense, also makes it so there is no it just it feels like it strips out the cultural humility, but also the teaching, right? So it's like, if I've already decided that you can't turn in your reflection paper, therefore you're not fit for the profession, then I'm not sure where in that very like either or thinking in allows leeway for folks to change the narrative. Like, if I already decided what the narrative is for you at all times, then, like, you also can't do anything to change it.

Yeah, gatekeeping, definitely. I mean, it's like again, on paper, it's like this thing, this duty that we have. But as you're saying, it can get over inflated and it can become too much to the point of it's a policing function. Of we're deciding who we want to allow in this profession, and in that I was going to come like a professional marginalization. I've certainly heard from people in the field just through overhearing conversations talking about, like, student related issues. To me, it's no surprise that I've frequently heard like students who are like on the chopping bladder block, or who are being thought of in terms of remediation and gatekeeping. Oftentimes, I'm hearing students who are bringing up issues related to like social justice and social injustice that they're experiencing, that they're seeing from their peers and how they're relating to their peers because of the social justice issues that they are experiencing. It's not uncommon that I frequently see and hear about disabled students or other marginalized students, particularly black students, being unfairly and feeling unfairly targeted in sort of under surveillance from like their faculty, or at least the fear of it if it hasn't risen to the level of any official remediation. And so, yeah, I think that role needs to be critically questioned. Certainly it's an important. The role because we want to have some labor protection. But also say, like, in my experience, something that I often struggle with as an educator is like, where do we use gatekeeping in terms of, like, students who are, like, actively oppressive, not only just in terms of their thought, but in terms of their action as well. Sometimes I don't see that same scrutiny, and that kind of reminds me that, again, this is like a, often a policing function, rather than sort of an accountability, growth, transformative function for students and many of us might also approach gatekeeping as just like a policing function, rather than part of our role and responsibility and teaching, preparing students and helping them grow through difficulties and conflict and things like that.

Yeah, it's so much so the right, like, as you're talking about, like, the connection between like, who gets remediated, especially around, like, social justice issues. It, it as you're talking just, I keep coming back to this Angela Davis quote, which is, we have to talk about liberating minds as well as liberating society, right? It's, it's like in our programs, we have an underlying idea that we're all like social justice focus, that we're all doing this like incredible, like multicultural, cultural humility work, where we're just like everyday liberating minds. But you really pull out the nuance in that what we're teaching doesn't actually match our own actions. So it's like, I'm teaching about abolition and liberation, but then I'm like, your paper is late, or you don't have APA formatting or right? And I think this is the policing you're talking about. Of like, I think too often folks think about policing as in, just like, what happens on the street or, like, if you get a car accident, but like, realizing that, I want to say, as we're talking it just feels like 95% of my actual everyday life experiences are from policing of others from a dominative white narrative that actually may not even come from someone who identifies as white. So literally, it's just like those conversations of like, like restorative justice or like ableism, right? Of like, we teach how we should dismantle these systems, but then we're still upholding our those systems in place?

Yeah, I think that needs to be a major conversation in our field, particularly in addition to broadly, but also like amongst those of us who are, like the social justice experts or gurus or whatever in our field, because I feel like we can very easily talk about, like, what these systems need to how they need to change, and how other people need to change. But the reality is, like, we're all underneath these systems, like everyone in the United States, probably actually everyone in the world is impacted by in some way, shape or form, white supremacy. And that's going to mean that we're probably going to internalize it in some way, shape or form. It might not be the case that we are developing to people who are like the biggest self heating individuals, but we might maybe inherit, like, some elite elitism kind of thoughts, which is something I noticed within academia a lot, and sometimes I feel like that doesn't get a lot of attention, like how we internalize system just from existing underneath them, and also how we choose to resist those that internalization too. Feel like that doesn't really get enough attention. And sometimes it can create this effect where it's like we are treating ourselves as if we are exceptional or the exception to the norm. And so I'll just kind of say, like, Yeah, I'm a PhD. I work in higher education, been raised under white supremacy. Certainly have many forces and sources of community that resist white supremacy. At the same time, I still have internalized white supremacy that I catch myself having to, like, pause and then figure out ways to, like, uproot and dismantle that so that I can treat my students equitably and fairly and with dignity and respect. But yeah, I definitely think we need to have more conversation and more active work on ourselves to dismantle how we internalize oppression. Yeah,

that's so, like, such good insight, right? Because I think especially like we like this is the soapbox I always have which it's like we're in a profession that swears that we're run by, like, master level clinicians. So like, folks are like, counseling is really accessible. Like this is why it's better than psychology, right? It's always like, we're better because, but at the same time, I'm just like, we have a narrative that the counseling profession is run like supported is like, I like, right, built on the backs of masters level. Missions. But it's like everyone in national organizations, like everyone in your university, all core faculty, we all have PhDs, so it's like we give a narrative that actually doesn't fit the actuality of what we're doing. And so it's like, it's almost like we're lying to ourselves by saying that we're masters level, run and driven, which then allows us not actually to challenge the whiteness that we uphold in ourselves and in academia and especially in counselor education. And I just think, right, like it's such an injustice to ourselves, but that it's like, I keep coming back to all my students who are like, I had one multicultural class and then we never talked about it again. Or, like, this program said it's very social justice focused, but we only had one class, right? And so it's just like, if we're not actually questioning ourselves, wrestling with these ideas and thoughts that it's like, are we actually doing the verbiage? Like, are we actually making social justice a verb? Like, we keep saying it is,

yeah. I think we often don't like, yeah, just saying when we make ourselves like exceptional or try to make this false narrative that somehow we as counselors because we're masters level where, that's where kind of our licensure is focused, that we're better or different. Like, actually really not any better or different at all. I i Really loathe the like, I don't know, curatorialism and port Miller's, the pissing matches between like, psychologists and social workers and counselors, like, who's better? Like, we all, for the most part, do very similar work. Certainly is shaped differently, and we also have many similar foundations. Certainly there are differences and approaches where, as we mentioned, like, as you mentioned at the start of this, like, yeah, the nature of counseling is partially rooted in wanting to be like psychology and wanting to assert the ways that we're different and maybe more wellness focused than psychology. At the same time, again, the therapy that we do pretty similar to what social workers will do, but psychologists will do all that to say like we as a field collectively are just as oppressive as other fields.

Yeah, I really appreciate that. Like, as we're transitioning right into almost, like the how do we fix it? Or like The what now is, I'm just thinking like, if we're so focused on being othered, like, if we're so focused on not doing what they're doing over there, then it almost like relieves us of our own accountability to actually, like, uphold ourselves to standards. So if I'm just like, if I'm just making sure I'm not doing what they're doing, then it's like, what are we doing? Nothing, right, like, what I'm doing?

Yeah, yeah, that is a major point, and that has implications in many realms in life. I won't get clinical, but yeah, if our identity is basically not being something else, that's the absence of something rather than being like, we're stating like, what we're for, and that would allow us to, like, actually strive towards that mission and vision, but first so focused on not looking like we're racist or not being social worker psychology. Well, what are we actually that can be actually really dangerous territory where we like actually booze identity, and so I feel like, to me as an abolitionist counselor and counselor educator, what I would like to see us collectively doing. And when I say collectively, I mean like us as individuals, us as departments, us as agencies, us as counseling organizations, like, really defining the actual mission and vision of what we are and what we want to be in doing so, like, honestly, like not doing so in a way where we're kind of ignoring some of the bad things or some of the oppressive things, but like, fully naming what ways are we oppressing right now, so that we're not, like, sweeping that under the rug and also stating, like, where are we trying to grow? I think if we are not capable or willing to do that, then I'm personally liking on the side of then this field needs to be dismantled, and something that is truly anti oppressive needs to be created in its place.

Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful that you talked about like reasons to dismantle, and because, as you're talking right like, I'm also an assistant professor, and we're, like, in that stage of our life in our college right now where we're, like, redoing the mission division. I feel like it happens every year, but I try to be positive about it, that this year will be different. But like in that conversation, I was one of my colleagues. Being like, we should say that, like we strive to protect students. And I was just like, oh, like, in the grand scheme of mass shootings, of school shootings, like we can't put in our mission that we actually strive to protect students. And like, what does protection even look like, right? And I remember folks just being like, Oh, well, let's not be negative. But I just like coming back to what you said is, like, are we really being vulnerable, transparent and honest with ourselves about this process? And like, what is actually in the realm of possibility, instead of just, like, putting out these, like, really far fresh, like, far fetched, not just aspirational, but almost like, I don't want to say like lies, but they just don't leave, they don't seem based on actual, like, current factual evidence of like the work we do. And I think, right? Like, I think that also sets ourselves up, but it sets our students up to fail, because it's like we're living in a bubble that just doesn't actually exist. And then it coming back to what you said earlier, right? Like, are we fully informing them of their consent in that process? And I don't think we're doing that if our mission is, like, why diversity is the most important thing ever. But, like, we don't actually support diversity.

Yeah, it's almost like treating like some of these hot topic and buzz words, like, like the promotional they're for advertisement. We want you to come to our programs, but then it's almost like a wolf in sheets clothing. Like, once you're in the program, then you see how much we're not for diversity, how much, and not even just like amongst like a department or faculty, but even the institution itself, how many obstacles and barriers you're going to face, how much harm, the different types of bullying you might experience, and things like that. It really does set up students to be particularly marginalized, students to be hurt, disgruntled and burned out, even it's one of the saddest things I see sometimes students, like, a year into their program and are questioning, like, is this a place that I actually want to be? And sometimes it seems like only sticking with it because they've invested money and time. It's like, yeah, it's being full of false narrative. And this, I don't know, it's like, Hey, here's this elixir that you want, but really, it's a poison, and it's really deceptive.

Yeah, I talk about that all the time, about, like, how people bought into the brochure, but they actually didn't, like, read the website. It's just like, like, you got the invite email. That's like, this is great, but then it's like, you just didn't realize, right? And I'm, I just keep coming back to the I don't know who's responsible. Like, is it? Are we responsible as faculty? Is the university responsible? Like, because I'm, like, in the absence of responsibility, then, like, no one can be held accountable. I mean, yeah,

like, who is that's that's a really quite good question for everyone reflecting who's responsible, because I'll say the university is probably never going to hold itself responsible. Is, at least for my brief few years in different forms and different institutions of academia, that is one thing I've noticed, that academia and the university will definitely find ways and utilize its systems, whether it's Title Nine, whether it's a university lawyer, to absolve itself of any responsibility to be accountable and to fix harm that's caused within the university. Yeah,

I mean, I mean, if folks are listening to this, and I think for any second that the university has their back, I there just needs to be some more reading and reflecting, because, like, I work for the man, so I get a paycheck every month. But I know that the man does not have my back. So you know you you pick and choose your you pick and choose. I chose, but I'm very aware that at any moment whatsoever, my university will replace me, and that is the relationship we're currently in,

and that is very much the norm. Every individual is expendable, particularly if you're marginalized, and even more so if you're multiply marginalized, yeah.

Okay, so, I mean, we covered so much stuff, and I feel like this needs to be like a whole series, but like, where should people start, right? So if we're really thinking about this idea of abolition as a verb, like the in the actual action, and like abolition being directly tied into social justice, like these two things are actually the same. Then, like, where do folks start? Or, like, how do they how do they get going in this like, liberal. Liberating of their minds and then liberating of their communities.

Yeah, measure saying that I was thinking my very first answer was, like, pick up a book. And then I was thinking like this, that really the first step, because I feel like, particularly for those who are academics or in the academic setting, whether students or faculty, um, being up a book can be a very individualized process, and I feel like there can be many barriers and roadblocks to like, actually learning in a transformative way. So I would say, like, read and be in community with other people who are interested in pursuing liberation and abolition, just so that you can be critically questioned, just so you can have a community of support, just so that you can also really just have a space of people who have shared values and are looking to cultivate a shared identity. I know if I were to pick up a book and like, maybe what, two years ago, I was reading the world of change by bell hooks on masculinity, and I was like, Oh, I'm gonna learn so much. It's gonna challenge me so much. And, yeah, it challenged me so much. There were so many opportunities and times where I'm like, I don't want to read this, or I was listening to an audiobook version of it. I'm like, I'd start turning things out and have to call myself out. Like, no, go back and listen to that, because it was probably the reason you started tuning that out. So I share that just as an example to really highlight like it's important to actually be in community. That's, again, one of the central pieces of abolition. We can't transform things by ourselves, no matter how much, in our culture and in our field, particularly around how we treat social justice. We like highlight specific individuals I know for myself. People frequently come to me intriguing, like this pseudo celebrity, like I can almost like I have this superpower, and I'm like, I'm just one person. It's actually like, community that's needed. And so I think, like, a very first step is to, like, be in community, find community, develop community around abolition, something I've been doing this like, really easy to do for the most part, as long you have a little bit of time, like a book club, meet monthly, weekly, or whatever, however frequently you want just around a book just to discuss, like abolition and some topics around abolition, and bring up concerns and discussion points. Yeah. So I think that could be a really great starting point. I would also say, particularly for people in academia, find community outside of academia. Yeah, and I'll just leave that there.

You're like, make a friend that's not an academic. I mean, I'm not. Most of my closest friends are actually not in academia, so I'm very much a fan of that. I'm also just very appreciative of highlighting the importance of community, and I think especially right now, like, just given everything happening, whether it's like in Palestine or in the US government, the elections, all of that stuff. But like, over and over and over, I'm just like, I keep hearing this theme that I don't think is setting and for folks enough of just like the revolution actually is in community, like the revolution is happening in community, like it's it's not an individual act, like trauma is healed in community, right? And I think, I think folks are trying to, like hashtag community as like, a fuzzy, happy thing, which it can be. But like, community is where we are challenged the most, to push ourselves and are actually like, how to like. That's, I think that's where the accountability is coming from within community, but then also the mirror, right? And I, and I would just add, like, what you said of I do treat you like an academic celebrity. I am at fault for that, because I'm like, I see you post up, and I'm like, Yeah, let's go. Best eat. But in that also, like, highly aware of like, you continuously challenge me, and that's like, how our community is, right? So making sure that folks are challenging you and you're not like comfortable, that like being uncomfortable is actually where we push our students, but where we need to actually push ourselves.

Yeah, yeah. Community is just really central, and also doesn't have to be like in person community just nodding disabled folks in the community, in the really centrality of online community, not only for disability justice, but also, I mean, the most I'm challenged, or some ways that I'm challenged, are by people who have never interacted with who are looking things on social media, just introducing me to new ideas. And so, yeah, just add that like community doesn't just have to be like, limited to like, physical proximity. We can make our communities digital as well. Yeah,

100% because it's like, we live in the same state, and I've never seen you actually like in Colorado, like, I've always seen you like in other places, like, I've seen you like at NBCC, I've seen you at ACA. I've like, never actually seen you like in the state of Colorado. Don't know we live like 90 minutes from each other, so that's just a perfect example of that. So one question I ask everyone as we're wrapping up is, what is one thing you would want students to know who are listening to this today?

Oh, wow. That's a hard question, given everything that we've talked about. I one thing I would want students to know, particularly students who are pursuing justice liberation, whether that is through an abolitionist lens or any other sort of anti oppressive lens,

expect push back like it's not going to be fun to experience it, but that's also a good sign that you're making good trouble. If you are being praised, or that's all you're receiving is praise publicly and privately, when you're finding yourself trying to challenge a system, that probably means that you are either doing something that is benefiting that system, or proponents of that system, or you might even be tokenized by that system. And so expect push back and find ways to find some reprieve and some healing, particularly in community, particularly outside of academia and academic settings. Yeah, find some ways to really heal with and get by, because that's going to be something that you're expected to experience. If you're not experiencing pushback, then you're probably not pushing for pushing hard enough,

yes. And so I'm just going to tie in, right? Because whenever you say control, I always think of John Lewis, and so his quote is, never, ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble, and help redeem the soul of America. And so I don't know if I'm like, for the soul of America, but I think I'm for the solo community. We could go together as people in the fight. And I think that, yeah, like all the times that folks point made me seem like as problematic was when they were uncomfortable in doing the status quo, when we actually needed to change it. So I fully endorse what you said. So as we're wrapping up, how do folks get in contact with you? How do we connect with you? Find out what you're doing. Say, Hello. Yeah,

I think some good ways to get in contact. Pretty active on social media, particularly instagram and twitter. On Instagram, a, I guess tag is my name, Darius. A, green, D, A, R, I, U, S, A, G, R, E, E, N, and on Twitter, my username is abolition, Doc, A, B, O, L, I T, i, o, n, B, O, C, I may have miss about that, but that those are quick ways to find me. I'm pretty active in responding to people. Email is also fine. My Gmail is Dr Darius a green@gmail.com Yeah,

awesome. So I will also have Dr Green's bio and links to his social media in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you so much for just taking time out of your day and like, having this conversation with me, I feel like we're actually going to have, like, another one that's a little bit more like nitty gritty into, like, the controversy, because I like to talk about that stuff with you, about, like, how do we really, like, shake some stuff up and counseling. So we'll definitely have to do this again in the meantime. I mean, look up Dr green. He's doing excellent work. He has fantastic articles on all of the stuff we talked about today. And, yeah. I mean, keep getting in good trouble. I think that's like the ultimate takeaway from this today. Yeah, any last closing remarks thoughts?

Yeah, I think just keep getting into good trouble. What's kind of on my mind to wrap up this conversation?

Yeah? So thank you so much, Dr green for being with us today. I hope all of you who are listening are having a good day, night, evening, whenever you're listening to this and yeah, take a moment to read over Dr Green's bio, and we look forward to seeing you in our next episode.

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept. App at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.