Hi, everyone. I'm Skye and today. I've got with me Gemma, again from Crossroads. Darbyshire.
Hello. Thanks for having me.
So today we're going to be discussing barriers to leaving domestic abusive relationships. Are there any thoughts that you have just off the top of your head around barriers to leaving Gemma?
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a really important topic to discuss. And I think most of the listeners will have heard something along the lines of domestic abuse or abusive relationships, why don't they just leave? Yeah. So we hear it all the time. I think it's important for us to discuss today, the any number of reasons that are a barrier to leaving those relationships. If you haven't been in that situation? Or if you haven't worked in domestic abuse services, or with people who have or are experiencing it, then perhaps you haven't given it a great deal of thought. And yeah, hopefully that we can open some people's eyes.
Definitely I know, it's something that we cover during our training sessions, we sort of cover it because it is something that's definitely just that, well, why don't they just leave? If they're unhappy? Why don't they just leave? And it's not, It's not always that simple. I mean, maybe some people do get that lucky that they can just up and leave but I'd say more than nine times out of 10. It's just not that easy for people or even that simple for people.
Absolutely. And you're totally right. It's not that simple. But I can see why people think that way. Because it really it's a way to protect yourself. Because if you assume that you can just leave an abusive relationship. If you know, someone can just leave an abusive relationship, if they're in one, then it's less scary.
No, I know exactly. I know exactly where you are coming from.
Yeah. So if abusive relationships are easy to leave, then it just makes them less scary. So people can just go about their their business, and just live your life.
It is said that the leaving part of being in a domestic abuse relationship is not only the scariest for people, but then most at harm during that stage. I mean, there's a lot of cases where there have been people who've tried to leave and horrendously, they have ended up being killed during the leaving stage. So it is the the hardest for people to do is to leave. And definitely if people don't just see that it's just that easy to leave them. They don't realize that there is all this behind it that puts that person at such a high risk.
Yeah, absolutely. And I, would say that that's one of the major barriers to leaving is the fear of what will happen if you do leave that person. And in our line of work, so Crossroads Derbyshire is a domestic abuse service. And we help clients who are ready to leave in the process of leaving and have already left.
Yeah,
and it doesn't just stop because you leave a relationship. You know, there are there are lots of ways lots of strategies that abusers can use to continue the abuse,even once a relationship has ended. And you know, they're fearful for a reason. I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with the statistic of two women a week are killed as a result of domestic abuse, domestic violence incidents. Well, they are committed by a current or ex partner.
Yes, yeah.
And yeah, that the former partner aspects of that statistic is included because it is the most like you say, it is the most risky time
Yeah, for a victim a Yeah. Because I guess they can live with it for however long and then if it is, especially if it is a physical, like a violent domestic abuse situation, then yeah, that is very risky. Whilst they're in that relationship and the risk of it would be high whilst they're in it, but then again, leaving that, it just heightens it even more.
Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, add in children to that equation. Yeah. And then you're not only fearful for what will happen to yourself, but also what might happen to children,their children.
Yeah. And then there's also no there's like the pets and Emily quite often says about, like, if somebody has like a horse for example, you can't take a horse to like a refuge Can you like, what happens to that horse? If you try and leave? Or any sort of animal? Or even somebody who doesn't have children and say that pet has been their child, almost, you feel the same way? Like, what do I do? And how can I leave whilst I've got them?
Yeah, absolutely. You've got that sense of companionship and responsibility of being who is dependent upon you.
Yeah, definitely. And then there's also I guess, if the perpetrator has been in your family for 30, 40 years, however many years, but they've been part of your family for such a long time, and the rest of your family, know nothing else. But then being in your family, I imagine you may feel as if you don't want to break that family up. Now, if you've got children as well, and that's that the perpetrator is their father. You don't want to be the person to break that up, I guess.
Yeah, absolutely. And so I guess we're getting guilt. That feeling of guilt is such a huge barrier to leave. And absolutely, like you say, guilt of breaking up a family of ending a relationship guilt, even, you know, for your abusers, feelings, emotions, yeah, maybe even shame, embarrassment, you know, especially like, I guess, somebody who's been in a relationship for 30, 40 years, we're talking about an older generation. And historically, you know, domestic abuse is something that was just dealt with in the home.
Yeah,
and people wouldn't get involved with, and yeah, you know, attitudes are changing. But there's still a lot of shame and embarrassment around being in an abusive relationship that, you know, being abused.
And I think that also links back to sort of like rural communities, and they're usually very, very tight knit. And everyone always knows everyone else's business. And it's just the sort of, it's probably the I don't want everyone to know, my business, I guess the shame and thinking, Oh, my days, what will people think?
Yeah, interestingly, considering the rural location there, Yeah, you'd be concerned about what people might think. But even if you're not, you're, there's a huge reduction in the number of people that you even have to turn to. Because, you know, when we add the advice that is out there about, you know, what, where to seek help, what to do, if you think that you're in an abusive relationship, it's speak to a GP, you know, speak to a trusted persons and tell you, pharmacists, like people have received, professionals have received some training. But if you're in a rural community, you know, your GP might also be a good friend of your family, like you say, we'll probably know a lot of people.
Yeah, so everyone knows that from Yeah. And I guess that leads on to as well as that a lot of people don't recognize that they're in that situation. So it's the, they're in denial, that they are that situation, and they think that perhaps it's just normal, perhaps it's just a stage that going through. And so it's sort of a lot of a big barrier to people leaving that situation is there's people not realizing that they're in that situation to start with.
Yeah, absolutely. And that can either be, you know, being understanding domestic abuse, and being in denial that you're in it yourself because of not wanting to face that reality, which is totally understandable. Or, you know, a lack of education on the matter, lack of awareness, you know, might not even realize that the relationships that you're reading is not a healthy one.
Yeah. Well, I know, for example, that I've mentioned in previous podcasts that my, my parents are of the generation where they, they sort of don't really know what not so much, they don't know what it is they they're not really aware of it. So I imagine there's a lot of people of older generations that because this has been something that's not talked about, especially I don't know if it is just within rural communities more than urban communities, but it's something that's never been talked about. So I guess if they were in that situation, they wouldn't realize perhaps that they're in that situation, they just may think that guess it's the whole thing of not being educated on it. They may think that yeah, it's just a bit of a blip and or that's just the way he or she is.
Yeah, absolutely. And just thinking about like traditional beliefs systems as well, you know, as we're on the topic of older generations, the like, loyalty to your partner, you're not wanting to break that loyalty, which is still a very common belief that gets us thinking about loyalty in relationships. So traditionally, in a married couple, it's your wedding vows. And it's also like, traditional gender roles. So in our organization, we recognize that, you know, however you identify, anybody can be a victim, and anybody can be a perpetrator. But domestic abuse is a gendered issue. And part of that stems from traditional gender roles. Yeah, so it's harder to recognize that what's going on? isn't right, because it's been normalized, almost that like, you just have to like, please your partner.
Yeah. That sort of makes me remember that somebody once said to me that they were told when they were younger, and their relationship, it wasn't a domestic abuse relationship, but it was a relationship where they weren't 100% happy with where they were. And they were told by their parents that you've made your bed now you got to lighten it, that was one of them. And you just got to put up and shut up. And it just I feel like that isn't that is an older generation. That's that that's been told to. Whereas nowadays, it's sort of gobsmacking that someone would say that, I guess, yeah, it was in a completely different situation. So it's not the same. But like, you can imagine if you were to go, you were the victim, and you went to tell somebody about it, say it was your parent that you went to tell about it. And they sort of turn around and say that you're going to be a shame, that of that. But then you're also going to be in that denial part again, because you're going to be thinking, Oh, well, is this just normal have I, quite literally just got to put up with this. Because I've made my bed, I've got a lie in it. And it's sort of it goes back to the generation part of people being not educated the same way and that people, it's always been that something like that stays within your house. And the it's your problem. You've got to deal with it almost. So people are getting just being so ashamed, I guess. But it's almost something that, well, it is something that needs to be changed to be not normalized, but something that people aren't scared to talk about.
Yeah, absolutely. At the moment, it's such a taboo topic, and hopefully, it's moving away from that, but it feels like a really slow process. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It definitely needs to change. I think if we like just to focus on the gender roles for a minute, I think girls, like from a young age girls are brought up to take care of others and even you know, to the point of always putting others needs before yourself. Yeah. When that's internalized, normalized from such a young age, it is going to affect how you what what you consider normal relationship behavior as you as you grow up.
Yeah, definitely. I think that's also like, you can see it from the complete flip side as well. So like you think of like a boy or man you think of when they're younger, they're taught to be manly and masculine. And to sort of just get on with things not say it's the male, that's the victim and they're in a domestic abuse relationship. Now, can you imagine like them go in and trying to get the help, because they've been taught that it is normal for males to just get on with things and to be masculine? That sort of like the little I guess their masculinity? For them?
Yeah, it's toxic masculinity is what you're describing. Yeah, it's that like, no lack of space for men and boys to share their feelings to show you know, what would be considered a weakness. And absolutely for for male victims. It's an extra level of shame, isn't it?
Yeah. I mean, I know that. I have a male friend and he doesn't really talk about his emotions ever. And I actually want to ask, like, why don't you and he said when he was younger, he was brought up that as a boy, you don't talk about your feelings. So is it I think it really is something that I feel like we always end up going back to this. It's it's something that needs to be changed how people are brought not brought up but taught. So I guess it's not just in schools, but I guess it's also at home as well, like, how people are brought up and brought into I guess, as you said, the gender roles if that it's okay for a female to do this, but it's not okay for a male to do this. And then vice versa.
Yeah, roles can be too prescriptive. And it doesn't help anybody? No, no.
Well, yes. In fact, that's that would be very good question for you, I feel is that how would you like things to be changed or worked on within this whole topic of domestic abuse and helping people to leave? Without putting you two on the spot? feel very passionately, about that you would hope that in the future would build be changed?
Yeah, I think education is key. Yeah, I think raising awareness and people, you know, getting that education around what are considered healthy and unhealthy relationship behaviors, focusing on consent, consent for, you know, relationship, aspects of your relationship, not just on the sexual side of things. Like, I think that education is key. I think people need to be well informed to be educated about what are considered healthy and unhealthy relationship behaviors, whatever side you're on, to know what to expect in a healthy relationship, and how to behave yourself in one thinking about control and coercive behavior, as that's really in the spotlight at the moment with regards to changes in the law. Now, the law has changed, but it seems to be a really slow process to get people to come forward and to get those convictions. And I think that's because there is still lack of awareness in the public about what it is and when it can be reported. So yeah, I think raising awareness, changing attitudes, listening to people who have had those experiences and taking that on board.
Yeah. Funny you say that exactly. What you said is exactly how I think and feel that I do think it's definitely that education. And people have been aware, I guess that's why don't we do our training, as well as just spreading the awareness. I feel it's just so so important. But I feel like teaching people from a young age is also very, very important.
Yeah, I agree. We've had some really successful programs, and currently run some very successful programs in schools, for young people that focus on healthy relationships, consent, managing your emotions, but yeah, it needs to be more wide, much more widely done. And like you said before, it just needs to become normalized in conversation that we, you know, it shouldn't be a taboo subject, we should be educating young people about what to expect in relationships in a healthy relationship, and how to behave in one yourself, and how to manage that yourself. I think looking at the bigger picture can think about to our previous podcast, language is so important. So when we're talking about domestic abuse, unhealthy relationships, also really carefully consider the language that is used, and to make sure that it's not victim blaming in any way. So for example, we use phrases like putting themselves at risk putting themselves in this situation, finding yourself in an abusive relationship. But that that kind of language really needs to shift to a person has been abused has been exploited, you know, we use so many passive sentences, you know, this has happened to a person but no, it was done to a person. So, you know, a perpetrator has abused a person a perpetrator has killed their partner. So So yeah, that that's that kind of links back to our previous podcast. But yeah, in the bigger picture, I think that's changing attitudes, massively through the language that we use in the education. Yeah, definitely.
But I think that pretty much brings us to an end. I do believe I feel like we've touched on a lot of very, very, important topics. And I think it'd be very, very interesting for the listeners to hit this and maybe for a lot of people, it's sort of the realization that there are a lot of barriers to leaving. And so, and hopefully we can help change things.
Or, you know, we didn't even talk about half the barriers as well. We didn't even mention money, location.
So yeah, it really is just a massive part for people who end up in a domestic abuse relationship. I'm saying get exactly how you said not to say it as well. Actually, I feel like it's it's so important. The language it links so much back to the last podcast. It's just the language that we are so used to using. Yeah, it's so ingrained that is now formed just a bit, isn't it?
Like it's because that's what we read. That's what we hear.
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again with us. Always brilliant to have you on here. So thank you very much.
