The Perfection Trap: The Power of Good Enough - Thomas Curran

10:23PM Oct 4, 2023

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Thomas Curran

Keywords:

perfectionism

people

good

moments

work

world

feel

life

talk

imperfection

love

mental health

important

mindset shift

thomas

perfect

perfection

chasing

outcome

impact

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Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Oh, this is gonna be a good one be.

I mean, buckle up, buckle up audience because if you're someone who struggles with perfectionism, with pouring and failing that you're not enough, we have the world's leading expert on perfectionism here on the podcast today, we are overjoyed to have Dr. Thomas Curran. He is the Associate Professor in the Department of psychological and behavioral science at the London School of Economics, John, what is our life. So today, we're gonna be talking about the perfection trap, the power of good enough and a world that always wants more, I feel like we will uniquely understand that as people who take on too much in the nonprofit and impact sector. But let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Kern, because not only as he brilliant, but man, he's funny and kind. And we'd love the time that we've gotten to spend with him. But he's a chartered psychologist, and also an associate professor, and he is the world leading expert on perfectionism, and has written about it for Time Magazine, the Harvard Business Review. But here's what I really want you to do. I want you to go over to TEDx. I want you to watch his TED Talk. It's garnered more than 3 million views. And his research has been featured in a wide range of media, including CNN, New Scientist, The Guardian, Harvard Business Review, there's so many here that I can't even repeat them all. But this year, he has published his debut book, the perfection trap, we're going to talk about that. And we're going to talk about how to release, we're going to talk about mindset shifts. And we're going to talk about how this is affecting our mental health. We hope you guys are going to breathe at the end of this. So Thomas, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here.

wonderful introduction. Thank you, Becky, it's a pleasure to be here with you and your listeners. I'm joined.

We never start our podcasts just diving right into the topic, because we think the person and the experience that you've had in your life informs your work. So we would love to go back and tell us about little Thomas, tell us about growing up, tell us about where perfection intersected and what led you kind of into this work?

Oh, my, okay, thank you for allowing me to tell my life story. I'm going to try and keep it short, though. Because there's a lot of twists and turns. And while I was always a bit of an anxious kid, I would I would say, definitely had some perfectionism from a very early age I I can look back and say that was certainly the case. But also quite talented as well, particularly athletically. So I was in the academy system, a couple of professional football clubs when I was younger. And I thought that was what I wanted to do. You know, we're gonna do it's gonna be it's gonna be in the Premier League, and

you're at Manchester United. Yes.

That is That was my honestly, up till I was about 14, I was my dream. So like, I hit 14, and everyone else was hitting puberty, and I wasn't. And so people, you know, these kids are coming, blowing past and your strength and speed and agility and all the rest of it. And so I got cut. And that was crashing. It's hard to regulate. And it's hard to understand like that this wasn't anything that was my fault. This is just the way I was born. And unfortunately, you know, there was nothing I could have done about that up going. So I've grown yourself. I didn't play football for like, three or four years after that only took up the game and went to university. So that was that was early Tom's life experience. And certainly where I started to really get interested, I think not subconsciously perhaps in perfectionism and how it can impact us and how it interacts with stress and difficulty. And then when I went to university, I did quite well I did a PhD. And then I went into the workplace very competitive academic workplace. And I was putting so much pressure on myself and all that perfectionism started to come back and then you start to hit setbacks and you start to hit difficulties and you feel like you're not succeeding and you feel like everyone else is so much better than you and that's when I started to have another So there's sort of difficulty and stress and anguish and, and that was that that was worse because that was more prolonged. And obviously, I had a job to do. So I couldn't, I couldn't escape it, I couldn't get out of it. And so I had what I would probably describe as a bit of a breakdown when I was about my late 20s. Pushing through using perfectionism to try to push through those difficulties. When it was actually perfectionism was creating those difficulties in the first place. And so that was really the jumping off point for my own inquiry into perfectionism. I did the first study that looked at perfectionism over time showing that it's increasing among young people. So it wasn't just me, it was fitting the things a lot of people do. And then the TED talk, and then the book, and here I am talking to

you. Wow. I mean, yeah, just your authenticity that's come in through this conversation, thank you for taking us into some of those vulnerable moments. Because, I mean, you can easily hide behind the pedigree and the research and the human that you are today. But to take us back into that just allows me to walk into this conversation with a different tone. Because we all see ourselves in those parts of your story of just not feeling enough or feeling disappointed about something or the perfectionist. That's just all chasing all of us. But you, you did something really interesting, you conduct this multi generational study of perfectionism, that was really groundbreaking. And I want you to talk about this because I feel like it's imperative for just like tone setting for this conversation. Take us back to what set that up, and what did you learn through it?

Well, I was really interested in perfectionism because it was something that affected me. So research is research in this in this respect. But we don't know a great deal about perfectionism. That's the curious thing about this area, like a lot of research is done in other areas of personality, psychology, perfectionism has typically been treated as a bit of a pop psychology topic. armchair psychoanalysis. You know what I mean? Like it's not, it's just not taking that seriously. And obviously, it impacted me profoundly. So I was, so I was so keen to try to do some systemic inquiry into this. And I realized that it was a little bit out there in the corners and vestiges of psychological science. So I looked at all the papers that are available. And, and a lot of it was awesome stuff, like how it impacts our lives, where it comes from, what the mechanisms that lead it to impact on mental health and all the rest of it. But I was really interested in something a little bit bigger, like, because I was seeing perfectionism everywhere, not just in my own experiences, but all around me. And so I wanted to scale this work up and take all the possible data that could possibly collect and look to see, is this something that's moving over time? Like are we see more perfectionism now than we did in the past, because if we are, and that that creates a whole new line of inquiry as to what on earth is going on. But the first step, of course, is you got to, you got to get the data to document the trends. And so that's what I set about doing. And, and as you mentioned, there, John have found that perfectionism was rising very sharply, among young people. And so that's really the jumping off point, as I mentioned, to the work that I do today,

I want to thank you for doing this research, I want to thank you for going in to the data. This particular topic is very, very personal to me to my family, we're living it right now. And I would bet there are many families out there who are living it, or we don't know, the basis of why our children or our friends or our spouse are reacting in certain ways. And when I go into therapy, I can tell you, perfectionism comes up a lot, and the concept of all these tenants in it, like, you know, just not feeling like I'm doing enough and trying to pile more on and the more and more and more mentality is just truly crippling us. So I thank you for this data. And I want you to talk about this route, the route of perfectionism, like in a wider society, like, when I look at politics, when I look at economics, when I look at even the philanthropy space, how did we get here, Thomas?

Okay. Again, it's a really, really big question to unpack and I tried to do so in my book, that's the second part of a book, dedicate a whole section of the book really, to just try and unpack what's happening here, because there are so many different factors. But I think one of the big things right now is that we live in an in a world that celebrates the overachiever, the 1% or 0.01%, the unicorn, and we never used to live in that world, you know, postwar consensus and in the UK, there is a valley in consensus in the in the US after the after the war. We're really focused on using the market system capitalism, if you like to enrich everybody, right, lift everybody up the affluent society. When the economy grew. Everybody did well that was the whole you know, that was government working hand in hand or corporations to look after people And the average Joe was celebrated. For instance, the Jetsons, these were the archetype or people that we looked up to in society that the middle person, the every person, but that shifted somewhere around the late 70s, early 80s. And we we started to point our compass more towards the extremes, to try to grow our economy in ways that enrich those at the very top. And the idea was that it would trickle down. So if we could increase the size of the pie of the top and everybody would be better off, it's a very different way of thinking about the economy, which unleashed it, shareholders and corporations to do a lot of the heavy lifting. Well, what that meant was that everything siphoned upwards. Now, we already have a really an economy that works for the very richest at the very top. And as a consequence, popular culture shifted to celebrate those extreme winners. And so all you see now, wherever it's in schools are racing, TV screens, movie theaters, social media, podcasts is the people that we platform of people that are the extreme examples. And we look at these people, we think not only is that desirable, but because it's everywhere, we think it's eminently obtainable. And these are warped sense of expectations that are not being met with reality. And that that disconnect is really what perfectionism is perfection was used to almost as a cruise liner, I suppose, is carried across that gulf, between the average normal ordinary person that we are in the here and now imperfect, and flawed, to try and be this perfect, idealized person that we hold in our minds is who we should be. And, you know, there's a lot more to it than that. But in a nutshell, I think that's what's

going on. Dang, I mean, the language you're putting around, this is just clicking like, it makes sense that, you know, you called out that this is a moment in time that there's never been more perfectionist society in history. And I can see that just like the convergence of all those factors happening. So I'm curious to Yeah, and I'd my cash, how do we not be part of that? Resist? But I know, we talk a lot about under the surface conversations, because we want to like systemically fix things. For us. We believe personally, that's a lot of mindset shifts, and a lot of internal work that needs to happen. Can you kind of take us in to that road? Like, what mindset shifts do we need to embrace around this topic?

I think he's about embracing average again, like, like, realizing that on any distribution. Most people are going to be around the average, but 70% of us are going to be women. One standard deviation is the average. So most of us are very probably average ordinary of the people that we used to celebrate and hold up as people who we look up to in society that just, you know, this is this is it's just Rekindling, I suppose what's what's normal, it's natural. And I suppose redefining success in those realistic terms. Because, you know, there's nothing wrong with striving and there's nothing wrong with having aspirations. And if we can get one standard deviation, even to civilization, that's amazing. You still better than 95 It's

a seismic shift.

But it isn't this kind of impossible, I should say. It's not impossible. Nothing's impossible. But this improbable, Five, Six Sigma outcome that we hold in our minds is something that's eminently obtainable. I think there's something beautiful about being average, actually, isn't it very humanizing about being ordinary, way more humanizing the being the outlier. In fact, there's something very unhuman about being a Six Sigma, individual in some ways, because it's so extreme that it's so far away from for what it is to be, to be ordinary, and you know, so I think, I think that's if you want a mindset shift, that that really for me is where collectively we have to, we have to realize that the expectations that we put on ourselves are warped, manufactured, and are a function of things that are way beyond our control. And actually, what's much more important, is acknowledging and accepting the things in life that matter the most just time with people around us in our, in our locale in our communities and, and spending more time with those people and people at work. If you've learned family, it helps us reconnect actually with what is normal. So I think that for me, is the big mindset shift in society that we need to be at or we need to be engaging in because at the moment, I think our expectations are way out of whack, and that's what's causing a lot of stress and anxiety.

Okay, listeners, friends, humans on the other end, Thomas is just giving you the gift of being ordinary, giving you permission to be average, you know, we don't have to be on this hamster wheel. Bill chasing this thing give us permission to step back because the effect of perfectionism on mental health has got to be seismic. And I want you to talk about that with our audience because we want to be the most healthy versions of ourselves and I feel myself on the hamster wheel I hang out in our community and I and I see it I see all the plates that our friends here are spinning all at one time. How has that pressure to be perfect affected our mental health and what can we do about it?

Yeah, it's quite it. There's a there's a massive link in the literature between perfectionism and various mental health difficulties, things like anxiety, depression, low mood, self presentational concerns, ruminative cognition, self harm, and sadly, is also correlated things like anorexia, bulimia, also have correlations with perfectionism. So there's a whole host of psychological difficulties and, and the reason perfectionism is so problematic in terms of mental health is where it starts. And it really is a deep rooted sense of the need to feel that we matter to feel like we loved actually, these are the same things. And, and, and in order to feel loved, recognized that we matter, we still the only way to guarantee that is to be perfect. Perfectionism comes from a place of lacking, it comes from a deep dancers, that we're not enough that we're not good enough that we're not perfect enough. And that we have to move through the world concealing those imperfections, and proven to all times to other people that we're okay that we're worth something that we matter. Now, of course, if you go about the world, trying to people, please and image and manage your impressions at all times, being someone else and when perfect, you're gonna is going to create a lot of difficulty you're going to, you're going to create dependency in other people's approval, you're going to try and be perfect all the time. But of course, you set yourself up for the very for the very failure setbacks and vulnerabilities that create those doubts in your own mind. So you feel a lot of low self esteem and worry, especially when things haven't gone well. And so you overcompensate to squash these things down. So I'm going to try and be even more perfect next time to make sure people know that I'm okay that I'm worth something. And so begins is like, it's really negative cycle perfection trap. This is the trap of perfectionism, where we continue overcompensating for deficiencies and hiding and concealing. And that's where you see the anxiety, the worry about how we look relative to other people, those really negative thoughts about ourselves presentation, were perfect enough. And of course, some of the more pathological outcomes I described. So yeah, that's why perfectionism can be so can be so damaging, because of where it starts, that theory needs to feel off because we don't feel that we're good enough.

Can I make a pseudo observation as someone who has absolutely no training or science behind this, but I want to make an observation to you all, when you chase perfectionism, you are truly tamping down that which is so unique and special about you. Because you're chasing the idea of what you think. People want to hear what they want to see what they want delivered. And yet, you as a human, are beautifully and uniquely different than anyone else. And you're not making space for that. I see that so much. And the world needs your humaneness. It needs your imperfections and all of that lived experience. And so I think that's one of the dangers of chasing this and I've witnessed it and myself, I've witnessed it and people I love. And I'm just like, I want to create space and put a hard stake in the ground to say let's stop that let's embrace who we are. And let's embrace the evolution that is us and not the world. Okay, stepping up my soapbox.

You know, this is so liberating about that because I've tried try this now to the lectures and towards talks, I say to say to the only because they come in with an impression that the Prophet knows everything. This guy's bulletproof. And of course, if you're a young student, or you're a PhD student or whatever, you're gonna hold this person in real high regard. And the moment you tell them, I did something wrong or screwed up I didn't do that analysis, right or I didn't know what it was doing on that study. You see this this immediate release.

It's like a case one

of us. And that is that's so beautiful. There's so it's so liberating about that the first time I did that, it was just like a pop of air in that in New Orleans and suddenly there's a connection and and I think there's a there's a there's a commonality and our imperfections and I think we need to show them more because it's so appreciated. And it's so

yeah, it just creates more connection and all the things. So I mean, you led us into talking about perfection trap and you obviously have this incredible book coming out too but what are some practical steps that we can take to get out of that trap and overcome it.

Yeah, there's a few things I would say, are really, really important. The first is to recognize that the joy of being human really is in doing things that give you purpose and meaning. And, and a lot of what holds us back on our perfectionism is that we don't feel we're very good at them. Or even that we're not world champion. And it's so important to to ignore that in a voice. That's telling you don't show your weakness here, don't show your fallibility, don't do this thing that you enjoy, because other people are going to see that you're not quite perfect at it. So you got to be brave, you got to be courageous, you got to try and share your vulnerabilities. And I know that's difficult. And it's easier said than done. But it's a journey, right? And you have to take small steps, push yourself a little bit more ecommerce every single day, if you go to work, for instance, and you don't think you're a very good speaker, or you're or you find that difficult, put your hand up to do a talk in a safe saying and just go through the emotions and anxiety that that will bring that you try and sit with that discomfort, don't crush it, or try and recycle into something else just sit with it, because it's a very humanizing feeling. And you realize, actually, in that moment, something very profound about the perfect person that you're trying to emulate. Because is it really worth living in fear for I've just done this thing that created that anxiety, and it wasn't as catastrophic as I thought it was. So maybe this person I've been living in fear for for this time isn't actually worth it is a big realization there in that in those moments, and I'd encourage your listeners to try to find more of those moments. And there'll be uncomfortable at first, but the more you do them, the easier it will become. And the and the more comfortable you will become a new skill of being a human being that's exhaustible is fallible, and that makes mistakes. So that's really, really important. I think, also talking and being open with people about when things haven't gone quite so well. Again, we just talked about it a moment ago, but showing vulnerability, showing people that you're imperfect, there's a shared humanness very shared about those experiences, it brings us together. And that can be with people that you're mentoring that can be with your children that can be friends, just have open conversations, if it wasn't a good day, talk about it, if you made a mistake, talk about it, laugh about it, they're really cool about those experiences. And finally, if you are going to put yourself out there a new and you are going to find that you're going to make mistakes, you're gonna encounter difficulties and struggles and things aren't always going to pan out the way you planned. You have to make sure that you bring self compassion to the table in those moments. That's that's that's the, you know, the self in So Craig, the perfectionist is what really is harnesses all those mental health difficulties, constant nagging how, how could you be so stupid, you're not good enough? Everybody's watching. You have to turn that on its head. And then you may just think, okay, that's fine. I'm human. And every human makes mistakes. It's all right. There's always next time. Yeah, you have to always treat yourself with kindness. It's so so important in those moments, and those moments of struggle. So those are the things that I recommend in the book, I have some other more practical strategies, but those are the things those are the big ones.

I'm gonna run and buy this book, like it has so much practical application. And I thank you so much for talking about how we need to silence the self critic and bring in more self love. And here's the thing, y'all, if you are scared to do it, my pro tip would be getting community with people and talk about that pull your squad together, who's your leg sustainable sisterhood, your hype squad, your tribe? Who are those people you really trust and say, I'm about to put myself out there and I'm scared. You know, those people are going to lift and cheer you to success. And it's going to make whatever that outcome is so much more palatable. And so we really talk a lot about how do we activate on good all the time, and I want people to have a really clear activation point. Because there is this concept of good enough that you talk about and the power of good enough. How can we embrace this imperfection? How can we look at it, not as this weakness or Albatross, but this something that's going to help us evolve and grow into the best and most healthy version of ourself. I would love to hear you talk about embracing imperfection.

So here's the thing that one of the other difficulties with perfectionism and as many as you probably gathered, but if there's no space for savoring, like there's no space for recognizing and and drinking in our accomplishments, because that was par for the course for the perfectionist. We're expected to do well so when we do well, that's just what we expect and also

we have that's so good,

but this is doubly difficult because also it In those moments and success, not only can you not savor it, but then you also set a new floor for yourself. So now the better you've done, the better you're now expecting yourself to do. So perfectionism becomes this never ending treadmill, where, where it's kind of like chasing the horizon, the closer you get the fabric moves. And that's what perfectionism is, it's a life that doesn't allow us to savor and recognize their achievements, whilst at the same time creating a lot of these psychological problems that mean life can be really exhausting and really difficult. And I think there's, there's something really important to bear in mind when we're talking about good enough and how we break that cycle. Because, you know, there is to recognize there isn't a perfect outcome. And especially in activities where the outcomes can be nebulous, and there may not even be a defined outcome, but we know we're moving in the direction that we need to move in. But we don't, you know, particularly in areas like the creative economy, in jobs where outcomes can be difficult to define. And also in the, in the third sector, or charities and people working on causes that are close to their heart, you know, the direction is movement in the right direction there, you can't really pinpoint an endpoint, it's about trying to win the arguments. And that's, you have to recognize there's no perfect outcome, you know, there could be 1000s and 1000s of good enough ways to get those messages across when those arguments would move forward. 1000s and 1000s of possible good enough ways, but no one perfect way. And that's so important for us to recognize as we move through our work. So jobs are a causes of things that we hold close to our heart, things that, you know, it's all about our souls, One Stone says it's all about progress. And that's the most important thing. And and we have to let go of having some idealized perfect outcome that we where we want to be right now in this moment, because this is where we have to be and actually recognize that life's more difficult than that is going to be upsetting, there's going to be downs. And the most important thing is to keep going in the direction that we want to go in and so good enough, finding that sweet spot of good enough is so so important. And really it's about progress over perfection. That's that's ensured.

Oh my gosh, do you just feel are like yes, hype from this, like, Okay, I gotta thread this together, because we started our season talking to Seth Godin, and he blew our minds, honestly. But he was like, coming in and saying the nonprofit sector is, should be trying stuff, we're trying to solve problems that haven't been solved yet. So we need to have this attitude of trial and risk and embracing that kind of subject. And what you're saying is the same too. It's like, we don't know the answer either. So like, we have to change our behavior, you know, if we're really going to solve some of these systemic issues like these things stack, and I think us taking care of how we're talking to ourselves as big, at least for me, of how we approach this. So I want to talk about, you know, there's a lot of leaders that listen to this podcast that are shepherding a team along in these journeys, how do you really model and build a culture that celebrates imperfection, you know, when you are chasing your pie, ridiculous KPI or some kind of goal, but how do you? How do you balance that tension?

The first thing you got to recognize is that you're gonna fail way more than you're gonna succeed. You know, failure is just regression to the mean is it's just a normal, inevitable part of anything, particularly in the nonprofit sector, when you are pushing against some really, really strong forces, really, really strong in the sometimes almost impenetrable for us as you're going to lose the arguments way more than, than you, you're going to feel like you're making progress. But but it's all worth it. Because the one time you do break through and you and you have a when you have a success, then that then that is then that makes all of those failures worth it. Because you've learned you've developed, you've iterated you found different ways to move forward and you finally been able to make a breakthrough, right? But that wouldn't have been possible. Without there's many, many moments of failure. And if you're a leader, it's so important to embrace that inevitability. And his very start from the get go with that being that you know, the culture the expectation, almost, there's a lot of this stuff that we're going to try isn't going to come off and that's okay. Right. This is all about innovative iteration development and growth and that's the most important thing and we if we succeed or fail, we do it together. There's no you know, this is a safe place we can share there's no question is a stupid question. It's a really good mantra for you. And and the culture really have of knowing and accepting the inevitability that things aren't going to always go to plan is so important, particularly young people coming into organizations because they worry a lot about you know, Howard answered wrongly we made a mistake was Was it my fault that we didn't succeed on this occasion? There are so many factors way beyond our control that maybe we didn't succeed. And that's okay, we just move on to the next thing. So I think accepting the inevitability of failure and really embracing that is very important for each.

I just want to create a scene for everyone, because this is what I would love to see happen in nonprofit. When you're done with a campaign, when you complete an event, when you complete some project in your organization, can you create a ritual? We've talked about this and building healthy cultures that rituals are so important? Can you create a ritual where you gather as a team, and you talk about what worked and you celebrate it, there's your joy, what didn't work, and we're going to celebrate the failures of the things we know didn't work. And then we're going to talk about how we're going to iterate. I mean, we are social scientist, at the end of the day. And we've got to figure out what that is, and how safe and comforting would that be? If your leader brought you together and said, Hey, we just did this direct mail campaign we just did Giving Tuesday. It's coming up a couple of weeks now. And here's what worked, here's what we're going to celebrate. Nothing is a failure as long as it's progress. And so if we can work on progress, and look at it as a whole in something we all own, and celebrate Oh, my gosh, you guys, that's how culture shift. That's the kind of organization I want to work in. And I want to feel like I have a voice to say, I think we could try this differently. And I may be a young professional, to your point, Thomas. But I may have unique insights on what's going to work the next time because I'm the target market, or because I understand that uniquely based on my lived experience. I'm so excited about this, I am already retooling it in my head for my house, I just think you are on to something very, very precious, that really could alter the state of the world. And so we really celebrate story here on this podcast. We believe that our ability to share story with each other humanizes us and gives us a broader worldview. So I'd love to ask you, is there a moment of philanthropy in your life, where generosity giving gratitude, something has come in and changed you for the better? Or maybe even for the worse? And why did it stick with you? I would love to hear story from me.

Gosh, that's a really, really good question. You know, what, there's been so many moments that have really humbled me, where people's generosity, your health, I think the moments have really stuck with me where, where people haven't had to do anything that wasn't in their interest. It didn't get anything out of it. But they just went out of their way to help to do something kind. And there have been a few individuals in my life who have done that very key junctures to whom I'm extremely grateful to. But I think my story would be about my father, because my father did something that was extremely unexpected. And when he stopped being a construction worker as a construction worker, because he couldn't work anymore, unfortunately, his joints and back, were not in good shape. Instead of just sort of retiring and putting his feet up on the sofa, he went and helped out at homeless charity, completely like off his own back. And, and from nowhere as well, this wasn't something that I ever expected to ever do. And he's been doing that now for a decade. And he's he's had some tremendous stories about making giving people or finding shelter and homes for people who have fallen on hard times. He's generated all sorts of income through various different ways of which you've never, ever fought, you know, this, that he's really used his skillset. And from that work, that he used to do different ways to try to make sure that this project that he ran, was successful and gave people homes and so that the entrepreneurialship, the ability to reach out to members of the community to speak to even members of parliament and hear the conversation with our MP to try to lobby for money. All of this stuff, incredible, incredible, and all the all of his own back as a volunteer. So that would be my my story. And sometimes people can surprise you in in incredible ways. And also in the case of my dad,

What's your dad's name?

His name is Paul.

Paul, thank you for being the light in the world. We are all looking for extraordinary story.

That was so beautiful. I mean, I love these moments, they just bring us back to it's like we all have the agency. We all have the power to plug in like that in this world. And I think that's what really excites us and get keeps us motivated to so i want to ask you, Thomas, as we round this out, we ask our guests to bring us a one good thing. And this could be a mantra that you say in your head. It could be a secret to your success, or it could just be what you're feeling in this conversation to leave with our community today. What is a one good thing you could offer us I

couldn't just be the one good thing I would say that's really helped me in my life come through my perfectionism is, is you have to, you have to let life happen. And listen, that's a very British thing to say, by the way. And for some people, that's a lot easier than it is for other people. And I come from a poor background, so it interests me, I know that life happens to you. And there's not a lot you can do. And you can fight and fight and fight and you should and should advocate for change. And you should always agitate for change, but, but a good you know, positive change. But at the same time, it's really important for our mental health to make sure that we recognize and accept that sometimes life will just happen to us, and we cannot control and perfect everything, and all around us. And there's that kind of radical acceptance, which is, is has been, for me anyway, the gateway to much more contentment, much more joy in my life. And actually, I feel more success to in terms of, you know, my, my career and family life and all the rest of it. So that would be my one thing that I would leave listeners with. It's sometimes life will happen to us. And that's okay, accepting it, and being able to recognize that the most important thing is progress. That's, that's it, if you listen to

Thomas, I like you so much. You're such a good human. And I honestly don't think that you could be the world's leading expert on perfectionism if you didn't come at it. With the level of humility and humanity that you bring to this work and ice, I feel that so deeply in the way that you talk, I feel really changed by this conversation. And I know our audience is gonna want to connect with you. They are 100% gonna get this perfection trap book. So tell us how our listeners can connect with you. Where can they get the book? And don't worry, friends, we will drop that TED Talk into the show notes because it is also outstanding. Well, thank

you. Yeah, I have a LinkedIn and I have a Twitter if you Google, Thomas Kern the perfection trap, all the information will come up where to buy the book, my website and social media channels. And just just to leave you this as I really love to hear from readers is one of my favorite things to do is to read emails from people that read the book and found something impactful. So please, I encourage you, if you read it, and you and you loved it, let me know. I would love to hear

oh my gosh, I mean this conversation the right moment in time. Just I'm really grateful for the the way you came into this and what you've brought us today Tom is just rooting for you from this side of the ocean.

I really love these chat. I've had a great time. It's been nice.

Thanks for joining us for these powerful discussions. If you'd like to dig deeper, you can find additional episodes and resources at we are for good.com backslash mental health.

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