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Inclusion Starts Now: Building Relationships to Promote Inclusive Education

Tim Villegas1h 2min

Tim Villegas

00:01

Tim, Hi friends. I'm Tim Villegas. This is think inclusive from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, our podcast that explores inclusive practices through conversations with people who are doing the work of inclusion in the real world. What does pickleball have to do with Inclusive Education. Great question. If you're watching on YouTube, I have my pickleball shirt for being runner up in a pickleball league with my buddy Mickey. I've got a pickleball racket. It's blue with, I don't know, a fun design on it, I guess, and a pickle, a yellow pickleball ball. I started playing pickleball a few months ago. I'm actually taking a little bit of a break because, you know, my knees need a chance to heal, but I will get to pickleball and how it relates in our conversation with our guest this week, which is Kayla Coburn, from inclusion starts now, Kayla and I have something in common. We were both former special education teachers, and also we were former teachers in segregated classrooms and and programs. And so if you are in that role, and you're listening or watching to this episode, and you are in a school district that is not on the road to inclusive practices, and maybe even are trying to expand special programs or disability specific programs. I think you are going to find this conversation extremely beneficial. Before we get into my conversation with Kayla, I want to tell you about our sponsor for this season, IXL. IXL is an online, personalized teaching and learning platform designed for kindergarten through 12th grade. Educators all around the country are using IXL in their classrooms, in their schools. One thing that they love about IXL is how easily they can see how the school is performing in real time to make instructional decisions. So there's a lot of data to look at. Also, IXL doesn't just stop at the data, but it also provides an ecosystem of resources for educators with curriculum recommendations, personalized learning plans, and a whole lot more. So if that sounds interesting to you, check out ixl.com/inclusive that's ixl.com/inclusive and thank you again, IXL for being a fantastic sponsor for us for this season. Okay, when we come back, my interview with Kayla Coburn from inclusion starts now see you on the other side.

Tim Villegas

03:18

You Kayla Coburn, welcome to the think inclusive podcast.

Speaker 1

03:41

Thank you, Tim for having me very excited to be here.

Tim Villegas

03:48

Yeah, Kayla, we, I don't know how long we've known each other, but it's been a it's been a minute, right? Well,

Speaker 1

03:53

it's my husband actually asked me last night how I met you, and I was like, social media. That's like, how I've met almost every new friend I have, but and then I was telling him how it wasn't until a couple years ago that we met at TASH in Arizona, in real life,

Tim Villegas

04:12

that's right, in real life, I know, yeah, yes, yes, I've had this, I've had this kind of virtual friendship with a lot of different people, and some people I still have never met. Yeah, like, and it's been over a decade,

Speaker 1

04:30

I just started this nonprofit with a friend that I met, and we were, I mean, we talked almost every day, and we met, like, a little over a year after starting the nonprofit, but we, like, followed each other for years, and it was like crazy actually seeing each other in person, and she's super short and I'm super tall. So then that was also really funny. We were like, we're mentally preparing each other. And we were like, okay, when we embrace each other. Okay, like, I'll bend down a little bit, but you get on your tippy toes, so we can really get a good hug.

Tim Villegas

05:10

That's right. Well, the the one thing that I that I know, that we have in common is that we were both for that. We're both former special education teachers and that we were trying to move inclusive practices forward in our district that wasn't inclusive, right? Yeah, yeah, especially my

Speaker 1

05:39

second, my last job as a special ed teacher. Yeah, my first one was great. They they were really on board for all the changes that I wanted to make. A lot of the teachers also really, just like they just really started to do everything that I wanted them to do. But once I got to the second school, I then started reflecting more on the first school, and I realized that I was taking my time because it was my first year teaching, so I didn't come in being like, these are all the changes we're going to make. Like, the first year, I was just like, building those relationships and slowly getting my students more involved than where they were before, where the second school I keep telling people that I came in really hot. I was like, these are all the changes you have to make. And then there was a lot of pushback. And so it was like, I kind of skipped that step of building those trusted relationships with people,

Tim Villegas

06:44

right? And you feel like that, that is an important thing to do. Oh,

Speaker 1

06:49

definitely. I mean, if you don't have people like all the barriers that are there for including people with disabilities. I mean, you know, like behaviors or not knowing how to communicate with someone, all of those like you. I feel like the general ed teachers were so nervous about all those things. And if they don't feel like they have some sort of trust with me that I'm not just gonna like, you know, give them all these students and be like, bye, figure it out, like knowing that they can come to me if there's a problem or if something's not working, we need to change it is so important. And I just didn't really realize how I built that at my first school and then not my second.

Tim Villegas

07:33

How do you think you did build that in the in the first? Was it like? Was it unintentional?

Speaker 1

07:41

Um, I mean, it probably was at first. I'm a pretty extroverted person, so I do genuinely love making friends, but I did make the effort of going into the lunchroom every day, going we started doing happy hours where there was this restaurant next to us that had just, like, really cheap food and like appetizers and stuff. So we'd all go do that on like, Fridays. And then, I mean, throughout the few years, we then started supporting all of like each other outside of those two things, like someone did hula dancing, and we all went to her hula dancing show. Someone was in a play. We all went to that and it, I mean, I just was in San Francisco, and I saw a few of my old coworkers, and it's been over five or six years since I was at that school. So definitely, definitely important. I also told them, when I was at the at that school, that if they ever wanted to, like, send some kids over that they could so, you know, if, like, one of their students was having like, a really hard time in their class or being really disruptive, I was like, Yeah, bring them over to my classroom and they can do whatever we're doing. And that could be, you know, sometimes that we would just be like silent reading, and they'd be like reading a book with one of my students. Sometimes we'd be like doing a science project, and they would just be another peer in there with us. And that also really helped. That took a while for them to trust me with that too, but they eventually did.

Tim Villegas

09:19

I was just at this leadership academy through AUCD, the Association of University Centers on disability, and something that really stuck out in one of our conversations, and I do not remember who said this, so it sounds like a quote. I don't know who said it, but it was things only move as fast as the Speed of Trust. And I really, I really like that. I really like that. So kudos to whoever said that. I'm sorry I don't remember. But. Well, yeah, yeah. I think that that, I think that sums up a lot of the work that we're trying to do with systems change and building trust, building relationships, not just with our students, but with our colleagues.

Speaker 1

10:20

Yeah. And then with among our the peers, I mean this, all of the students I actually used to present on that with a former colleague of how to help build trusted relationships with our students, like without the T Am I making sense? Like the students are building relationships with each other, like, how to encourage friendship between, like, you know, children without disabilities and with disabilities, because, like, they have been separated for so long,

Tim Villegas

10:56

right? That's a problem. Because, if, if, if students are not students who have been historically segregated from each other, right? Like, you know, the typical general education class and the special education class, and all of a sudden now we're spending more time together. It's like, oh, this is different, right? So how do you prepare the students that that's going to happen? Yeah,

Speaker 1

11:29

I like to tell people about this practice I learned when I was in a sorority called bumping. And it's when you, like, go to meet somebody, and you're talking to them, and they all of a sudden say, like, oh, yeah, I just, I don't know, got my nails done. And you're like, Oh, that's so cool. This person just got their nails done, and they do it every week. Like, maybe do, like, do you guys go the same place? Or what kind of you know, and then you connect them, and then it kind of exits you from the conversation. But they, like, all more people get to talk. This was during like, rushing, when you're, like, trying to meet all these new people, you know, whatever, college life. But I realized I started bringing that into my classroom during times that we were practicing inclusion, where, like, we were with other peers, and I would see a general ed, a general ed students say, like, oh, yeah, I played Fortnite last night. And then I could be like, Oh, my student loves to do the dance from Fortnite. Have you, like, talked to them about it and and then even in that situation, depending on how much how my student might communicate, I would somewhat assist with, like helping the communication. But the second that I could fade myself out, I would and it would just give everyone the practice of, like, talking to each other in a very genuine way, bonding over something we have in common, which is basically what you know, we all do to make friends, right? We have something in common. And, uh, can we start talking

Tim Villegas

13:01

exactly that? Yeah, that's pretty much what happens. I mean, I don't know about you, but it's hard making friends as an adult.

Speaker 1

13:13

Yeah, it's, I've actually so I've been doing this hobby a month, thing for this year, yeah, yeah. It has been a great way to make friends, because you, I mean, and again, it's like, a similar interest. Every time I do a new hobby, anyone who I have, like, remotely talked to on social media had told if they do the hobby, they connect with me. And then if I go and actually do lessons somewhere, I'm, like, meeting all these people. Like, it's such a great way to, like, just to meet people. So if you need new adult friends, go join a new hobby.

Tim Villegas

13:51

Well, so offline, we've talked about pickleball. Did you ever? Did you ever? Did you ever play pickleball? That

Speaker 1

13:59

is my hobby this month, really. Um, yeah, it, it's been really fun. Um, I'm actually really afraid to go to my community center and do like, pickup games I've only played with like, friends. I tried to get a coach for an hour, and then I realized that they live in Vancouver, Canada, and I live in Vancouver, Washington, four hour drive. And I was like, Man, I'm so sorry. Like, and I talked to this woman for like, a week or two, and I was like, Well, you seem really nice. Sorry that I can't go.

Tim Villegas

14:35

Oh, my goodness.

Unknown Speaker

14:37

Are you doing pickleball?

Tim Villegas

14:39

I am doing pickleball. I just finished a season of a league, and me and my buddy, my friend, my friend, Mickey Mellon, who is a he's a podcaster, so I'm just going to plug that he has a podcast called stacking knowledge, where he reads books. With his guests like asynchronous, asynchronously. And then they talk about the book, fun, great, fun podcast. He lives in my town, and he said, Hey, Tim, do you want to join a pickleball league? And I said, That sounds fun. I've never played pickleball. And he said, Neither have I. So we both joined the league being very much novice pickleball players and and it was pretty bad for the first, oh, couple months. And then I think we started, it started to click. So yeah, leagues over, yes,

Speaker 1

15:41

like, too helpful. And like, trying to be like, Oh, this is the kitchen. Well,

Tim Villegas

15:45

yeah, yeah. We started. We started on, like, the on some really beginner courts, and then there was another court at our park that is, like, for the serious people, like, there's a waiting, like, there's a there's like a wheel where you put your racket in to wait for people to, like, stop, and it's like a rotating system. It's like, super organized. It's pretty intense. So we were intimidated, but now we go to those courts and it's fine, and we still are, like, somewhat beginner, intermediate, but there are people that are so good. Like, Wow, they're so good. So I yeah, I think I think that, like, I wanted to do it because it was something out of my comfort zone, and I knew I would enjoy it, yeah, but the first, you know, the first few weeks, it was rough, like I came home and I'm like, I don't know if I want to do this

Speaker 1

16:55

well. So this hobby of the month, thing that I've been doing has been a great reminder of, like, what general ed teachers might be going through when I'm, like, trying to ask them to include my students, that it is kind of hard. It is a new way of teaching, like they didn't go to grad school to help, like, you know, how to teach kids with extensive support needs. And so it's been a really great reminder to me, because, yeah, I've been practiced, like, I've been trying to get my students included since, like, 2011 10. It's been a really, like, long time of me learning it. So it's been a really great reminder of, like, okay, you've been doing this for a while. You need to remember that. Like, you know, I need to start from, like, those fundamental inclusion steps for these people, which has been, it's been a really good reminder. I think I really needed this.

Tim Villegas

17:54

I think that's a great analogy. And so I think you found, I think you found the next topic of your next newsletter.

Speaker 1

18:07

That is it. Write this down. I've been really slacking on the newsletters. Write

Tim Villegas

18:13

it down, pickleball and inclusion, yes.

Unknown Speaker

18:16

Well, write it

Tim Villegas

18:21

down. I wanted to, I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, we both worked in, like, separate, segregated classrooms, and we a lot of times, how we included our kids was, hey, come to my classroom and hang out with us. Let's do a lesson. Let's figure out how we can spend time with each other. And sometimes that's called reverse inclusion. Sometimes it's I don't know, called I don't know, I don't know if

Speaker 1

18:57

there's a name for it, reverse mainstreaming. But then someone really mad at me for saying that online, and I did not realize that that mainstreaming and reverse mainstreaming apparently have like, different meanings. Now,

Tim Villegas

19:09

oh, how, how so

Unknown Speaker

19:11

it I think it's like,

Speaker 1

19:14

it's just like, not actually inclusion, like, it's like, this temporary thing. But I

Tim Villegas

19:22

it's not, I mean, so, and this is what I want to talk to you about, yeah, because I think that, I think that it's important, you know, I think a lot of teachers are trying to move inclusion forward by doing this strategy. Because, you know, you're in a spot and you're like, Well, what do I do? And this is a, this is a way to have kids with and without disabilities spend time together, learn together, become friends. And I also have heard and people have told me that's not inclusion. So I. I it, and I don't like in the in the big picture, it isn't right. Well, like when I talk about inclusion, and when I talk about inclusion with you, what I mean is students in general education classrooms being supported, feeling a sense of belonging and and that that time spent is, like over 80% of their day. So, like, that is what I mean when I talk about inclusion. So there's really, like, I don't really have a good word for you know what we're talking about, but I want to hear from you, and then I can, I can share. Do you feel it's beneficial

Speaker 1

20:44

to have the students coming into my classroom, like as a special ed teacher? Oh my gosh, so beneficial. First, it makes the special ed classroom not like this unknown territory. That was because, like, I would notice that, like students and parents teachers, they'd walk by and kind of like pop their head in, because, I mean, it does look like a different classroom that we I had eight or nine students, so there was only eight or nine desks. We had a lot of sensory we had like, little sensory corner. We had a visual schedule that everyone could see, like it did look like a different classroom. So that was one way to, like, come in and be like, yep, we have a visual schedule and kind of teaching students how to embrace these differences and how these different accommodations gave my students, like, access to the curriculum and gave access to school. And like, all they needed was a visual schedule, and it like, you know, helped them get through the day, like, you know, knowing what to like, what's going to happen next, where. And then we actually started noticing that a lot of the students coming into my room also really benefited from a lot of the stuff that we were doing, you know, that was, like, specific to teaching students with disabilities, but, like, students without disabilities were like, Oh, wow, this schedule is so nice. Like, now I know what's coming up next, and now I know how much longer I have until lunch. And like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna play with this fidget while you talk. And it was just giving all these different I mean, it was like, really educating me and the other teachers, and then the student, like all the students, so really beneficial. I'm not quite sure if I just answered your question. I feel like I just, I do this. I kind of stray.

Tim Villegas

22:29

That's, you know, that's why I wanted you on Kayla to, you know, take the tangents for you. No, no, I know this about you, and that's totally fine, and this is the kind of conversation we're going to have. And I'm totally, I'm totally here for it. I I think where, where I want to camp out is like, there's, there's a sentiment that certain in certain things maybe aren't beneficial, or that they shouldn't be done at all, and instead, you should be doing something else, like moving inclusion forward. But, but here's my here's the big but. But what if, while we're trying to, you know, influence the administration, you know, equip parents to advocate for inclusive education for their children, while we are facilitating, you know, friendships with our students, building trust in relationships with our colleagues. We also invite students into our special education classrooms. Like to me, the criticism is, well, that's not good enough. But I'm like, Yeah, but we're doing something right and and I used to feel like, honestly, I used to feel bad that I did it like I was like, I know that. I know that it matters to these particular students, the students in, you know, in the general education environments that have been invited in to my classroom and to my students. It matters, right? Yeah, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, Yeah, but it's not real. It's not real. Like it's not what I want to happen. And you know, we've been doing this a long time. I've, you know, I had 16 years in the classroom, and now I'm four years out. And as with an organization that's supporting educators, you know, with authentic inclusion and. And I will say that if we're partnering with the district, and they're like, Hey, how do we, how do we, how do we do inclusive practices, I am not recommending reverse inclusion. Like, absolutely hard stop, absolutely no, because we are, if we're working, if we're partnering with a with a district, it means that we have a district leadership team. We are setting a vision, we are figuring out scheduling, we're equipping educators. So this is not something that we would recommend, but for the lone teacher out there, yes, that is feeling like, what do I do? Right? I don't want anyone to feel shame for wanting typical, you know, typically developing students to be invited into their classroom. Does that make sense? Oh,

Speaker 1

25:52

and I was gonna say that is exactly who I am targeting when I talk about this. It is the teacher who has a school culture that, like, does not want to be inclusive, and this is a great way for one person to make that difference. Of, you know, making those connections with teachers, because it's like, the more people you can get on your side to be like, Look, this works. Like, you know, yeah, my student uses an AAC device, but like, they look at how much they're thriving having these relationships, like, and it's kind of, and I mean, like, I don't even like saying that sentence, because it's like, Duh, but a lot of people just don't know that, and it's so important to educate everyone, and a lot of that does fall on that one lone Special Ed teacher that wants to practice inclusion, and everyone else is like, what's inclusion? Like? You guys are at recess. Why are you complaining? And it's like, no, we're gonna do more.

Tim Villegas

26:52

Right, right? Yes, yeah. So, so I just wanted to, I wanted to just name that and call that out, and whoever is listening, and is that loan teacher and, and, and they're, they're doing this strategy like, like, kudos to you. All. I would say is just keep going right. Keep going, keep trying to push, keep trying to still do all the things like, you know, influencing administration, sharing resources, you know, with your special education supervisor, directors, support people, so they know that this isn't just something that is, that's on the fringe. I mean, it's amazing to hear all of the schools and the districts that are attempting to move inclusive practices forward. I mean, there's a lot more than than you would think when you actually start to look now. Are they perfect? No, but I like it's encouraging to me to hear what's happening. Yeah,

Speaker 1

28:04

and, yeah and, I mean, really, just like, keep taking a step forward. Like, is really, but I do also want to say I have had people reach out to me where they've had school districts just say, like, okay, next year we're fully inclusive. Like, you know, doing this huge change, and I don't think that is always helpful, because then it's creating a lot of teachers or paras who have gotten no training, and then all of a sudden it's like, well, I don't know. I guess we'll get a behavior therapist, let's we'll talk to you in about another month. Like, then I feel like it will have people not want to include everyone, because they're not, you know, they've never got the training. And I do feel like that's a really big part of it, too, that, I mean, there are teachers who've been teaching for, you know, 3040, years, like they never thought they would be teaching a child who's like, holding on to a device to communicate, like, that's just something they've never been taught. And I think it's really important, even for us as people coming in to train people that like this, is going to be a huge mind shift to them, because, you know, they grew up not thinking our students were capable of learning, and look at them now. So it, it's a lot of mindset work, mind shifting.

Tim Villegas

29:25

Yeah, definitely, and I completely agree, and it's, and that's something, that's something else we would never recommend, is to overnight or in one school year for a district especially, I mean, I'm really talking about, you know, there are some districts out there, there are, like, two schools. So what I mean is, like, when you think of a school district, you're talking about, like, at least one high school with middle schools and elementary schools into a feeder pattern. You're talking. About, you know, a handful of schools up to, you know, one of, like, larger ones with, you know, a dozen high schools. It's just logistically for you to say, okay, in one school year, we are going to be fully inclusive. That doesn't give enough time to build the capacity of educators. It just doesn't. So that's why, when we are working with districts, it's always a phased in approach. You know, there are a number of schools that are demonstration schools. We're working with a district administration team, and then through their leadership and vision, schools and educators are equipped to phase in the practices and but the thing is, is, you know, I at least commend the effort. It's just, you know, my fear is like what you said, is it, it won't, quote, unquote, work, because the kids and this, the educators are supported, and they're like, well, inclusion didn't work.

Speaker 1

31:05

Yeah, and then yeah, and then it's now we're battling another thing, that someone had one bad experience, and they're like, Nope, we gotta keep it separate. And you're like, No, you just gotta do it. Right? What?

Tim Villegas

31:32

I'd love for you to talk about the training that you have available and everything that you're working on right now, with inclusion starts now, yeah,

Speaker 1

31:42

oh, wow, it's really all over the place, and I'm not quite sure why. I mean, I know why I do all this, but I have a lot of things. So let's see. Let's see what I can remember. This year I decided to do this year long training where it's every month I have a new topic and and it comes with resources and, like, one on one conversation with me. I mean, people have, like, one month someone said they couldn't find, like, a one page handout about traumatic brain injuries. And I kind of looked for a little bit. And I'm like, Well, I know about traumatic brain injury, so I'm just going to write it really quick. And so then I just, like, made one, and then gave it to everyone, well, everyone who's in the class. And so that's been really nice. And then every month I give them resources, of like, books or podcasts or, you know, things for them to like, even further their education or connect with other people in this inclusion education field. So that's probably been my big thing for this year, and that's like all on my website, inclusion starts now.com. Literally, it's inclusion starts now on everything that's my it's all social media stuff. It's all there. That's been my biggest thing. I'm not sure. Did you ask for, like, all any resources that I have,

Tim Villegas

33:10

whatever you want to plug? It's totally, yeah, whatever's on top of mind for you.

Speaker 1

33:16

Well, I also, my third children's book is in officially been approved and is in the process of being printed. I have totally self published all of my books, which means I put down way too much money for them to all get sent here, and then I ship them out of my house, as you see, that is if you could see if anyone, I don't know if you do video too for podcasts.

Tim Villegas

33:36

Yeah. This is video. Yeah. Chunk of

Speaker 1

33:39

books right here, and there are some underneath my desk. They're mostly in the garage, but this is also the room that they live in, and it's just what, yeah, so that is about to and I guess I should tell you about the books they all So it all started because when I was a para, I worked with a student who is deaf and blind. Well, deafblind. And at that point, that was, like, 12 years ago, and I was realizing that, like, there were no books in the classroom that had a character who was deafblind. So then I was like, Oh, cool. I'll just like, make one. And I think making a bunch of social stories have helped me with this, because that's kind of how I made the first book was like, it's Tyler the snake. He's deaf, blind, and it goes over things that he likes, and then it just goes over his first going to school. And during that, he runs into his friends, and he talks about his friends, and some of them have, like, disabilities, some of them just have, like, I don't know, things that help them perform better at school. And then that was pretty much it. And then I don't know where my brain went, but I was like, I'm just gonna keep going. So then I wrote a second book about how to make Halloween inclusive, but we also talk a little bit about Dia de los Muertos. And then now the third. Book Miguel the chameleon is about the holiday season and making it, making like that inclusive, and it's just their classroom going over all the different holidays around the winter time. But I already realized I forgot some. There's, like, a lot of holidays. I thought I had all of them. Then someone was like, what about this one? I'm like, dang, there's, like, seven holidays in there, so Wow, but now it's too late. I'm like, that's already been written.

Tim Villegas

35:28

It's too late,

Speaker 2

35:31

but I'm still very proud of this book, yeah, which is really cool for me.

Tim Villegas

35:40

Nice, nice, okay. And, and people can purchase these books on inclusion starts now, or on Amazon, or where

Speaker 1

35:50

just on inclusion starts now.com. Okay, all right, maybe someday, how to get it on other places, but it's hard to track.

Tim Villegas

36:01

Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of, it's a lot of work. And also, if they purchase from you, they know that, you know, they're supporting your business, and not someone else's like, a, you know, mega corporate thing, yes,

Speaker 1

36:17

and I studied it, I usually throw in a sticker. It's really, I mean, I don't know, signing it feels kind of funny that I'm like, I don't feel like, I don't know, but I do it anyways.

Tim Villegas

36:28

I mean, you're, you're an author, so it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you forgot to talk about your podcast.

Unknown Speaker

36:37

Oh my gosh.

Tim Villegas

36:41

So talk about your podcast.

Speaker 1

36:44

It's also called inclusion starts now I I did one season, and it's totally like, unedited. I didn't even,

Unknown Speaker

36:53

oh, hello, sorry my dog. No, that's okay.

Speaker 1

36:58

I didn't even, like, re listen and edit it before I posted them, I was like, they're 20 minutes. I just talk about different topics around inclusion. And I really started, I like, had surgery, and about two weeks later, someone was telling me that a podcast would be a good idea. And I was like, in bed, just like, Yeah, okay, I'll, I'll try this out. So that is how season one started, and then I kind of got into it, because, like, the people who did listen, I just I had really good feedback, like people who responded, I was like, Oh, well, okay, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna do season two. But season two, I'm only interviewing people, so I've been interviewing, like the first episode, which is for season two, is coming out July 1, and it's me talking to this woman who didn't realize she was autistic until her adult life. And I think a lot of people, especially like in my generation, are kind of like re figuring out their identities. Because I know me growing up like it was kind of like that, like people weren't as accepting, like, I don't feel like neurodivergent was really talked about as much, and it was like, you know, if you were a problem child, like they kind of just called you that and, like, dismissed it. So I feel like I have a lot of adult friends who are like, am I autistic? Like, is this why this is so challenging for me? And so we have a really good conversation about it. And she's another person I met via social media, but she lives in my town, so we've met. Oh, nice, but Oh, yep, there I go, just talking a bunch again. So yeah, that's the podcast. I'm really excited about it. I've already recorded like seven episodes. That's

Tim Villegas

38:47

great. Yeah, so it if you liked this conversation and you liked what Kayla has to say, I think you're gonna love inclusion starts now. So make sure you follow subscribe. Are you gonna be? Did you put it on YouTube too? Yes,

Speaker 1

39:03

okay, Spotify apple. It's on podbean. You're doing

Tim Villegas

39:09

it right? It sounds like so you're good, you are good, you're good, all right. Anything else you want to say to our audience of educators, parents, self advocates,

Speaker 1

39:23

oh, man, well, I hope that who's ever listening just you know that you are doing such a great job if you are here and you are furthering your education on inclusion and how to be a better teacher, parent advocate, like you are already doing great, and don't forget to celebrate all of the little things that you are accomplishing, because the overall picture could look really daunting, but every step is a good step. Feel like that's a good step.

Tim Villegas

39:54

Fantastic. That's great. Well, you're not done yet. I'm not letting you off the hook. We're doing this. Question? Ooh, yes. So the mystery question is, I'm down to a stack of about, I don't know what is that? 2030, cards I started with, like a huge one. And so every i at the end of every interview, I try to do this? And I've filtered the bad ones out, so this is it. And then once these are done, then I'm going to make my own so so here we go, drum roll. Drum roll, please. Here we go. The mystery question is, if you could make this is, this is an interesting one for us. If you could make one of your hobbies into a profession, which one would it be? See? If you can see that, there we go. That's

Speaker 2

40:57

like, very crazy. We talked about a hobby.

Tim Villegas

41:03

Yeah, I know, I know. So what's what's interesting about this is one of my hobbies was podcasting, and so that now it's my profession, so, but I have to pick a new one, because that's podcasting is not a hobby anymore.

Speaker 1

41:20

I like, because I want to say, like, I like, educating is not a hobby. But I feel like I've always been really passionate about okay, hobby, hobby. I gotta think, oh, you know what, if I could Okay, one of my hobbies when I was recovering from the same surgery, was diamond painting. Have you ever heard of this? No, it's like a paint by color, no, paint by numbers. But it's with these, like, plastic it's not actual diamonds. They're like plastic jewels. And you can get them on Amazon for, like, I don't know, five to $10 like, you can buy these things and it comes with a picture, and then it has, like, a whole thing. It has a, what do you call that, like a table or something like, so it comes with, like, it'll tell you, like, D 17 is green. And so then you get your D 17 packet, and then you, like, sit there, and you just put all these little diamonds on plastic, diamonds onto your paper. And then it creates this picture, and it is, like, so addicting, really. It feels so good to just like, keep putting all these little things satisfying maybe, yeah, it's like, a very satisfying hobby.

Tim Villegas

42:36

It's called Diamond painting. Yeah, I'm looking at this up right now, diamond painting kits,

Speaker 1

42:44

okay? And it's really cool. And you just like, have this little wax thing you take and you have a little pencil thingy, and you hit the wax, you hit the diamond thing, and then you put it on and, yeah, oh, man, it was so fun. You get paid that.

Unknown Speaker

43:01

That would be cool.

Tim Villegas

43:03

Why not? Because it's kind of like relaxing, yeah, this seems like a very zen type of thing to do. Yeah,

Speaker 1

43:09

it's kind of like meditative. And yeah, exactly. And I know some other people started doing it too after I was posting about it, a couple other people bought things. And so far, everyone has loved it, but it is like, I mean, it took me hours to do, I did a cow with, like, flowers in its on its head and birds.

Unknown Speaker

43:31

Okay, just send you a picture.

Tim Villegas

43:33

Do you have, uh, did you? Did you post it on Instagram,

Speaker 1

43:36

or anything I did. It was in February, so it was a few months ago. Okay, I'll have

Tim Villegas

43:41

to, like, I'll have to scroll back on on your feed, or you can just send it to me. I'll

Unknown Speaker

43:46

text you the picture.

Tim Villegas

43:47

Okay, that's probably better, you know, I'm gonna be like, Oh my gosh, oh my goodness. How far,

Unknown Speaker

43:56

dude, February is a really, it

Tim Villegas

43:58

really, is, it is, it is okay. So hobbies, the So, one thing I used to do in my former, in my former, days before kids, is play music. And I played in, like, rock bands and, you know, played because I lived in LA. And you know, when you're in LA, you're either an actor or you're a musician. And so

Unknown Speaker

44:30

no in between,

Tim Villegas

44:31

no in between. That's it. And I played bass. Bass is one of my, like, my main instrument. And so this yesterday, okay, yesterday. We've been planning this for months. A friend of mine that I met in marching band because my daughter was in marching band in high school. One of the parents plays the piano like and used to play J. As piano, like, like, standards and stuff like that. So he's like, You should come and we should jam, like, bring your bass and I'll play piano, you play bass, and, you know, we'll have a good time. And I was, like, kind of nervous about it, because I have not played the bass in years, and so I dusted off my bass, I got my bass, and we went to his basement, and we played for an hour and a half or whatever, and my fingers were sore and everything. But I'm like, Oh my gosh, this was so fun. I need to, like, I need to get back into playing the bass and and playing like, you know, when I was a musician, it was more about trying to, like, come up with new material and generate new songs and stuff like that, but it was just fun playing stuff that we kind of already knew. And it was like, just the jazz standards. And I'm like, I could do this. I could definitely get into this type of thing and build up my bass chops and just play jazz. That's so fun. So I think that if I were to make it a profession, I think that would be it. That's awesome. Dust off my base.

Speaker 2

46:22

I love that, yes. And we also didn't talk about it, which I feel like we should have.

Tim Villegas

46:30

We know you're right. We should. And so for those of you on video, you can see I'm wearing a red shirt that with white letters, inclusion matters is on my shirt, and

Unknown Speaker

46:45

I love the contrast there. Oh, thank

Tim Villegas

46:47

you, yeah. What about your shirt? Kayla,

Speaker 1

46:51

mine is my new shirt here. Let's totally mess this up. It well, it says inclusion starts now, because, you know, that's like my life. But these are all my characters from my books, and then they're wearing, like, pride stuff for

Speaker 2

47:06

pride. Oh, that's so cool. It is a

Speaker 1

47:09

little blurry because I tried to do it myself on procreate. So it's a little blurry, but I don't know it's fine. I like it. I bought in three different colors. So

Tim Villegas

47:23

are you selling those shirts? Or, oh, yeah, selling the shirts? Yes,

Speaker 1

47:28

there. And I, I don't know when this is going to be showing, but in June, it's like $8 off if you use the code pride, because it's blurry. And I feel really bad that I don't want to.

Tim Villegas

47:43

I think this is, this is going to run in in September, or

Unknown Speaker

47:47

perfect, because that's

Tim Villegas

47:51

there you go. Okay, okay, when I when, when we publish. I'll give you a heads up, and then we can coordinate. Kayla Coburn, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast. Thank

Speaker 1

48:02

you so much for having me, and maybe someday I'll try to get you on mine.

Tim Villegas

48:11

It's not a requirement, but it would be my pleasure.

Speaker 2

48:15

All right. Well, I'd be honored you. Music.

Tim Villegas

48:31

Welcome back everyone. It's time for three for me and two for you. And so this is part of the episode where I talk about some reflections from our conversation, and then also give a couple calls to action. So here's number one, this whole conversation was really directed toward teachers who are feeling stuck, who are working in a district that is not inclusive, or that is resistant to moving forward, and maybe you are feeling powerless. Maybe you're feeling like you don't know what to do next. And I think that's a lot of teachers, like probably the majority of special education teachers, there's very, very few special educators that are like, absolutely no. Inclusion is the wrong thing. We need segregated spaces. Most teachers, I think, out there, are like, I really feel like we could do this better. I just don't know the next step. So, you know, we did talk about some things, you know, in, you know, reverse inclusion, if you're doing that, is, you know, I'm not going to say don't do it necessarily. I don't think it's going to produce the long term change that you want. But. What you can do and think about is, if you are a segregated, self contained teacher, is how to increase the visibility of your students in the life of the school, and how can you also increase participation? So I'll give you an example. This is an election year, you know, 2024 and so in 2016 when I was in the classroom, and it was in like election year I had, I was teaching a class that was only for students on the autism spectrum. And what we did was we coordinated a mock election. So before the election happened in November, in 20 2016 we coordinated with a number of different teachers and the the administration to hold a mock election in our classroom. Facilitated the the election process so like we were, you know, helping people show where they could vote. We counted the ballots, we reported the ballots, stuff like that. So it was a, you know, a civics lesson, but also it was a way to increase the visibility of the students in our school. And it was fantastic, and it was wonderful. I think it was a really great opportunity. Again, is that authentic, inclusive education? No, but it did serve the purpose of the rest of the school knew who we were and got a chance to interact with us, and we were seen as, you know, experts in in this activity. So I think that's another way to think about it, rather than, you know, yes, of course, bring, you know, invite students in the general education environments into special education environments and see how you can increase the interaction between students in your classroom and in the rest of the school, but just thinking about increasing visibility and participation in the life of the school, I think that that is a reflection of mine that I think is Important. Okay, number two is find your allies and keep working with them and developing relationships with them. Kayla talks something about, in our conversation, about making friends, and how they would go and have go to happy hour afterwards, and, you know, have food and and socialize and go to each other's things. And I mean, apart from that being just a general good practice, if you were in a workplace, to get to know the people that you work with, especially with just the barrier between special education and general education and the world's not really knowing what goes on when it really should be a collaborative experience, the more that you can break down those walls in an informal and kind of like off Work time, the more that people will trust you and what you are trying to do, and another way is all in those off times you can explain, like, what your line of thinking is, like, Hey, this is really what I mean when I talk about inclusion. I'm not talking about just dumping students with disabilities in general education classrooms without support, that is often what people think when they hear inclusive education. And that's not it. And then the third thing that I want to bring up is that we both talked about just to keep going. This is, this is hard work, and it's worthwhile work, and it's not going to be perfect, even districts who are fully inclusive, you know, nothing is perfect, so it's it's a practice. And so, you know, when we talk about educational practice or inclusive education practice practices, that means we have to keep going. We're never done, so don't quit. And I also, you know, want to address sometimes I feel like the message is for teachers in segregated classrooms that the work that you're doing is not worthwhile. That's certainly how I felt. It is. It is worthwhile. You should be doing it. If that's the only option that you have, if that's the only option that you have, and you know you want to make a difference in children's lives, then by all means, do that all the while trying to move inclusive education practices forward in your district. But if you quit, if you leave, then you there's no one that is going to be affecting change where you are now, you may get to the point, after a number of years in in a system that you're like, Okay, I'm done, which is certainly what happened to me, but I just don't want the message to be that you have to quit, which I don't I don't think that is correct. Okay, that's three reflections for me, and now two calls to action for you. The first call to action is definitely follow subscribe to Kayla's inclusion starts now podcast. We'll make sure to have all those links in the show notes. And then also check out her books. I think those would be fantastic resources or gifts as we get to the holidays this year. And then finally, this is kind of another reflection, but there is a call to action that is attached to it. I want to talk to you about this idea of planting seeds. I think there is a sentiment, especially with people who have been doing this work for a long time in inclusive spaces, and who have been advocating for a very long time that systems change, kind of like we've been doing this so long. Why haven't we seen the growth, and why haven't we seen the, you know, the progress. And I think there's a complicated answer to that, but the thing that I want to focus on is that, if you are in a segregated classroom, and you're a teacher and you believe in inclusive practices, keep planting those seeds with your the parents that you work with, the families that you work with, with your colleagues, the paraprofessionals that you work with, the related service providers. Often, I mean, all the time, I'd have paraprofessionals in my classroom, and we would, we would have sidebars in the in the classroom. Be like, okay, okay, you see all of this, like, it's running. Well, we have stations. We are, you know, you know, kids are learning. But really, like, this is not what I want. This is not what I think is ideal. This is not what education should be. Education should be learners in general education, classrooms supported. You know, the students should be scheduled in natural purports. Students with disabilities should be scheduled in national proportions. National proportions across grade level. District leadership should be,

Tim Villegas

58:28

you know, sharing a vision for inclusion, that all learners belong in that school, in that neighborhood school. So I would take the opportunity during the day and during the school year to plant seeds with paraprofessionals, with teachers that I worked with and with administrators. Be like, you know, this is, you know, this is not my vision for education, and I think that it was more credible. I hope, I hope it was more credible when I said it because I was working within the system that segregated students, because then they could see like, Well, Tim is doing a good job with what he has. And I hope that me talking about my vision, and you know, our collective vision for a more inclusive school system, that they were more likely to listen I did not see the change that I wanted to in my school district. But that doesn't mean that other people could be, you know, more persuasive. I often talk about, see home high school, shout out to see home. And Sonia Cole, who is the principal there a. Currently at sea home, and how she started with a with a cohort of teachers advocating for different and inclusive practices in that high school. And even before there was a push in the state of Washington to move forward with inclusive practices, they were already doing that work. So it is possible. It's doesn't happen as often as I want, but I think that again, it's all about planting seeds and to also presume the competence of our educators, that when we explain what we actually mean by inclusive education, that they're not going to completely reject it outright. So that's it for this episode of Think inclusive. It's always a pleasure to talk with you and if you liked this episode, or if you have any questions, or if you just want to reach out and say hello, you can always email me at T Villegas at mcie, org. That's T, V, I, L, L, E, G, A, S, at mcie, dot, O, R, G, I love to know that you're listening. I don't actually know that you're listening unless you reach out and say, Hey, I love this episode. Thank you so much. Or here's an idea for a guest, or I shared this episode with a colleague of mine, and we had a great conversation. Those are the things that I'd love to hear. So please definitely let me know. Okay, here's the credits. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me. Tim Villegas, it's a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by miles. Kredich, additional music from melody. Thank you to our wonderful sponsor for season 12, IXL. Learn more at ixl.com/inclusive. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.

Tim Villegas

01:02:21

Mcie or.

00:0000:00