Pathways to Impact: Careers in Forensic and Correctional Psychology

3:49PM Mar 1, 2024

Speakers:

Patricia Zapf, PhD

Virginia Barber-Rioja, PhD

Monique Coleman, PsyD

Keywords:

forensic

forensic psychologist

forensic psychology

monique

virginia

correctional

psychology

environments

field

settings

thinking

court

day

career

mental health

defendant

interested

individuals

experienced

consulting

Hello and thank you so much for joining Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies for our talking Mental Health Careers podcast episode featuring forensic and correctional psychology. My name is Patricia Zapf. And I'm the Vice President for Business Innovation and Strategic Advancement at Palo Alto University. And I've been a forensic psychologist for the last 25 years. I'm very fortunate today to be joined by our experts, two amazingly accomplished professionals in forensic and correctional psychology, Dr. Virginia Barber-Rioja and Dr. Monique Coleman. Thank you both so much for being here for this conversation. I'd like to start by giving our listeners just a little background information on each of you. And then because I'm boring to listen to, I want to have each of you actually tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career. Dr. Virginia Barber Roja obtained her PhD in clinical forensic psychology from John Jay College of Criminal Justice at the City University of New York. She has worked in the New York City Jail system as CO chief and Clinical Director of Mental Health and Assistant Chief of forensic services for Correctional Health Services. She's also an adjunct professor at New York University and at Columbia University. She has over 15 years of experience working in correctional and forensic contexts, into including jails, forensic hospitals, an alternative to incarceration and reentry program, as well as a consultant for the juvenile correctional facilities in Puerto Rico. Currently, Dr. Barber-Rioja consults for the Center for Justice innovation as a senior clinical policy advisor and maintains an independent forensic practice. Dr. Monique Coleman received her PsyD from Wright State University and is the founder and CEO of Comprehensive Psycholegal Services based in Atlanta, Georgia, where she works as a forensic psychologist and expert witness in criminal and civil cases. She has over 25 years of experience primarily working in private practice with children and adults, conducting evaluations of competence to stand trial, criminal responsibility, death penalty mitigation, pretrial and post conviction mitigation, and over the last few years, has collaborated and expanded her practice to offer trial Consulting Services. She has worked in a variety of forensic settings, including inpatient and outpatient facilities, Social Security Administration, Veterans Administration, federal prison and detention with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, as well as state prisons and state forensic departments. Welcome to you both. And thank you so much for being here today. I know many of our listeners are interested in forensic psychology and correctional psychology. So it's really nice to have both of you here today to give us some more insights into these fascinating careers. Dr. Barber-Rioja, Virginia if I may I'd like to start with you. Please tell us a little bit more about your education, your career path and the professional experiences you've had?

Yes, well, thank you so much, first of all, for inviting me to participate in this episode. I'm really excited. So I am originally from Spain. So I went to school in Spain and I the educational system is a little different. So I went to college where I studied psychology. I graduated as a clinical psychologist. But I think last year while I was in college in Madrid, I went to college in Madrid I did an externship in substance use treatment program. And I realized that every single of my clients who had substance use issues had either been to prison before or got arrested as we were doing treatment. And that got me really thinking about and also also they had many of them had also mental health issues. And so it got me really interested in you know, answering this question of why why is that there are so many people with substance use issues and mental health issues in the legal system. And so after I graduated, I spoke with a professor. I said, you know, I, you know, I like clinical psychology, but I don't have like a passion for it. But there's this area that I'm really interested on. And this professor told me that I needed to go to New York and study at John Jay College. And so I had I didn't speak any English I'd never been to New York before or really outside of Spain. And I made a very impulsive decision and moved to New York learned English and ended up getting a master's degree in forensic psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and then after that, my work was actually with diversion program. So I was a case manager working with in Brooklyn, New York City in a number of mental health courts, so interviewing people who were in the system, identifying if they had mental health issues, and then diverting them out to the community. And I did that for two years and realized that there were limits to what I could do without having a PhD, or PsyD and so, I decided to go back to John Jay, for my PhD. And so I graduated many years ago. And I did my internship at Bellevue Hospital, in a forensic invasion unit, also working in outpatient settings. And then after that, started, my first jobs, were actually working doing forensic assessment for mental health courts. And then later on, on my career paths sort of shifted to doing more correctional psychology.

Thank you for that. And for our listeners, just full disclosure, I had the wonderful opportunity to be a professor at John Jay College, while Virginia was completing her doctoral studies and one of our most amazing graduates and super proud of her. So very exciting Dr. Coleman, Monique if I may, tell us a little bit more about yourself and your career path.

Oh, absolutely. But first of all, thank you so much for inviting me here to speak on this topic that is so near and dear to my heart. And I've had the privilege to work in for over 25 years now. Well, and time flies when you're having fun, right. But to answer your question with regard to career path, I am a bit of a non traditional path with forensic because when I first started in my doctoral program, I had no idea that there was specialty programs within the forensic field. And I had an idea about what I wanted to do, probably earlier than I knew what the name was, when I was in undergrad. My my senior paper was on the effects of eyewitnesses on jurors. And so I always had this desire to have an understanding about how the legal system works. And so when I started doing forensic work, some of that came full circle, when I began to apply clinical psychology to forensic settings, when I was at Wright State, I ended up taking courses that were similar to forensic psychology. That even though it wasn't a traditional forensic program, and I then also surrounded myself with wonderful mentors that helped me to learn the craft and to learn the field, because at the time, I believe there were only maybe 16 programs or so that were either joint degree programs, which was either a PhD or PsyD program, or a specialty program for forensic psychology. And again, you know, they weren't, you know, highly publicized, so I did not know of those programs as I was applying to my doctoral programs, but my mentors as I speak with them, the Dr. Susan Dyers that Dr. Leon van Dijk, who I had the privilege of having, as my dissertation chair, then Kristin Haskins, who taught me the nuts and bolts of you know how to investigate and review and to write reports. Those are the folks who really were the driving forces and some of my career paths. The the Jim Reyes, for example, who was one of the first people in Columbus, Ohio, gave me my first opportunity to work at a maximum security forensic unit, where I had experiences that really drove some of the questions that I had with regard to mental health and the legal system. And so I'm really grateful for those experiences as well.

Thanks to you both for sharing more about your careers. I know that in addition to being forensic psychologists who work in a wide variety of settings, you each also have other professional interests where you spend some of your time. Can you tell us a little bit about those as well? Monique, let's start with

you. Sure, absolutely. So, I am a member of the American Psychological Association. But I'm also a member of the American Psychology and Law Society, which is Division 41 of the, the APA, and that, within that division, I worked with the professional development of women committee. And on that committee, we promote the success and professional development of female scientists and practitioners and build up legal and forensic psychology. And we really support women and men as well. Through mentorships, and your trainings that we offer through the APLS conferences that are offered, every year, I really enjoy working with that committee, as they helped highlight the accomplishments of women in the forensic field. I also work with the American Society of Trial Consultants, ASTC. And I work with that committee, with professional education where we promote education around trial consulting, and this is kind of a new area for me. So it's really exciting in that we are, I'm able to help with some training initiatives, in addition to learning more about trial consulting. And as I talked about earlier, it's really coming full circle for me, and looking at how we may interact in the legal system. We as in forensic psychologists, but on the other side as trial consultants. So basically consulting with attorneys, and helping them to understand what happens in the courtroom as a relates to human behavior. So I truly enjoy that, in addition to developing and expanding on my practice goals for my practice, and that's always exciting for me, because I'm always looking for new and exciting opportunities, such as the trial consulting, that could help to build a practice, and bring in individuals who might be able to have that or that have an interest in forensic psychology and or trial consulting.

Thank you for that. And we'll put some of those links in the information about this podcast for listeners, Virginia, what are some of your other interests?

So I, in addition to being a practitioner, there are other activities that I incorporate to my career one, as you mentioned before, I'm I'm an adjunct professor at NYU, and Columbia. I've been teaching as an adjunct for many years. And I love I love it, I love the students, it keeps me It keeps me it sort of forces me to be up on the research and, and to keep learning about what are the motivations of students when they want to come to these fields and, and so this is something that although sometimes I do it at the end of the day, when I've been like working all day, and it can be pretty exhausting. But I find that really rewarding. In addition to that, I'm a member at large of the of APLS. And I've been really enjoying my work there. And I am a member of the I'm gonna say it in Spanish, Asociación Iberoamericana de Justicia Terapéutica. So it's, it's it's kind of like an international association of therapeutic jurisprudence that in involves or incorporates Latin American countries, Spain and Portugal. And what we the work that we do is trying to identify correctional systems in Latin America, Spain and Portugal, that are over represented by people with mental illness and help judges on the courts and policymakers figure out policies that might actually offer alternatives to incarceration for that population. And I have absolutely been loving that work because it allows me to bring some of the knowledge and the things that I've learned in the United States to other systems. And I have found stakeholders in other countries to be really open it to, to our our propositions.

That's amazing. I love it. We'll also include some of those links for the listeners. I'm always curious about how people who go into this field got interested and then got involved in the field. You know, you always get asked the question, Well, what happened? What made you decide that you wanted to be a forensic psychologist, so, Virginia, tell us a little bit about how it is that you got I'm interested and then involved in the field.

So I, I think it was I first got interested in psychology when I was, I was very, very young. And actually, I've discovered this through conversations with my mother. So I am from a very tiny island in the Canary Islands called Lanzarote, for those who are interested in googling what it is, it's off the northwest coast of Africa. And there was only one elementary school at the time, when I was a kid and on our way to school, there were always a group of individuals who were using heroin at the time. In the 80s, there was a heroin epidemic in Spain. And it was, you know, it was a small island. So it was always the same three people and we will see them every day we'll talk to them, we became friendly. But then other times, we would also see them injecting themselves or sleeping on the streets. And my mom tells me that I was so curious about it, what what is happening to them? Why are they feeling that way? Maybe it's because they are sad, should we talk to them? And, and so I think that through those conversations with my mom who was, is obviously very smart, and, and a great mom, I realized that psychology was what I wanted to go to school for. But as I mentioned before, forensic psychology was never was never something that I really thought about. It wasn't a thing at all. When I went to school in Spain, I have to say that now, you know, there are so many wonderful programs in forensic psychology in Spain, but I didn't take any forensic psychology classes. No one ever told me that that was a specialty. And then it wasn't until my last year when I worked in a substance use treatment program, that I started to sort of connect the fact that a lot of my clients also were mentally ill and had been to prison that I, I became interested. And and so I think those are the origins of my interest in forensic psychology.

I love that. How about you, Monique? What, what sort of made you become interested in forensic psychology as a career? Yeah,

well, you know, I'm thinking about what Virginia had said, in my experience. And my interest in psychology started when I was very young. And some of my earliest memories of it were back when I was even in middle school, before I even knew what psychology was. But I always had an interest in human behavior and helping others. Obviously, that's something that is important in the field. But I would have to go back to South Central Los Angeles, where I was born and raised. And in that environment on which was primarily in city, east and south, southeast LA, there was a lot of crime and death that occurred around me. And it was a very common occurrence, unfortunately, as there was a lot of gang activity and such. And I think that perhaps my love of human behavior and why people do what they do, and seeing some of this crime and death that was occurring in my environment was the marriage between psychology and, and law. But I didn't really know that at the time, I just knew that those were things that interests me, as I continue to go along, as I had mentioned, in my educational career, and as I developed this idea about, you know, how do eye witnesses affect jurors during my senior paper. Again, I, that was a time where some of these ideas merged, but again, I didn't have a label for it, per se. I wasn't calling it forensic psychology, but certainly all the elements were there, in terms of, you know, psychology and the law, that intersection between the two. I think, additionally, as I think about the field, and my, my love for the field, is that it allows me to be a voice for people who typically don't have a voice. And that has always been something that has been foremost in my mind, is that what happens to individuals who get in front of a judge or within a court system they may have some traumas in their life or some mental illness in their life, and they really don't have the voice to speak that. And as a forensic psychologist and doing forensic evaluations in particular, that is an opportunity to allow the court to hear what they wouldn't typically get to hear within the forensic evaluation and through the report writing. And so that is, in particular, one of the things that I feel that it's important, and that we contribute to the field. Thank

you both for that. So interesting to hear about your origins and kind of where you came from, and how it influenced your career paths, frankly. So one of the questions that I am often asked is, you know, what's a typical day like in the life of a forensic psychologist, and, you know, I always say, like, what is typical? I don't know, how do you each answer that for yourself? Monique, tell us about a typical day for you.

There's no such thing, which is one of the things that I love about this field, I knew when I was going through graduate school, that I would just go absolutely crazy if I had to sit in an office 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And that's all that I did. And with forensic psychology, it has allowed me to work in such a variety of settings, and every day is new, every day is something different, you know, that could be a day of being in my office writing a report, which oftentimes, you know, takes a lot of mental energy, because you're thinking about this, and there's a certain weight that goes to that, knowing that the information that you are, that the information that you're writing about with regard to a client, or to a defendant could have an impact on their life. And so that could be one of the the things that I could do during a day, it could be talking to legal professionals, talking to attorneys, talking to judges, even at times helping to explain mental health, you know, we have to keep in mind that as a forensic psychologist, especially in terms of the evaluation piece, but that we are the, we are the experts in terms of the mental health. And oftentimes, what I have found is that attorneys and judges, they're very interested in, in the mental health aspect of the defendants that may come before them. And so helping to explain psychology without, you know, some of the, the, the terms that we we use as as psychologists normally, and that they are not typically used to that is something that's that's very exciting and could be a part of a day, you know, could be that I am in court, you know, testifying. I could be testifying on some psycholegal issue, or I could be testifying about a defendant that I saw in an evaluation and the report that I've written. One of the things that I just recently did, I was testifying virtually, which is something that's relatively new since 2020, when we started doing a lot of virtual work on in the court system. And so testifying virtually could be one of the things that I do reviewing video, police, police, video, body cams, and those kinds of things as it relates to a particular case might be something else that I do. And one of the other things that I really like to do is just researching topics that are relevant to cases. Now that's always exciting. That's always new. There's always something new and exciting coming out as it relates to mental health and for the forensic world or trial consulting world. So that that just I think kind of gives you a general idea about what a typical day is. And hopefully you come away knowing that there is no typical day.

No doubt about that. What about you, Virginia? What's a typical day for you?

So, interestingly, if you had asked me this question a year ago, my days looked looked more similar to each other. So I would like wake up really early and drive to Queens cross the bridge into Rikers Island. And I spend my day in jail. Even though of course, every day was different in the sense that you always had a different crisis that you needed to be attending to. But that was a full time job that I had, and that I did Monday through Friday. So, I mean, it's very similar to Monique, I suppose currently, I do a lot of different things. And so some days, I'm testifying in court other days I'm writing reports from home. On Tuesdays, I attend meetings at the Center for for Justice Innovation. So I go to their office, and I have meetings with different members of the team. I also spent a good amount of time in immigration detention centers where I do a lot of evaluations, which can be pretty disheartening, actually. And, and then sometimes I'm traveling because I'm doing consulting, for some jail systems. So then during those trips, I spent most of the time inside of jails just walking around talking to people who are providing care, and trying to do sort of assessments of the mental health services in those jails. So and then I teach so two days a week at night, I'm, I'm at the university. So yeah, as Monique said, similarly, there is no typical day in my life, currently. Which

is what makes it such a fascinating career, I think no such thing as a typical day, which is amazing, and really intriguing to some people. When I think about, you know, mentors, and those who have helped shape you as a professional, what is some of the best advice you've been given? Or what might you tell someone who's just starting out in their career, Monique, let's start with you.

Oh, goodness, so many nuggets of advice that I've gotten over the years, but I think one of them that stays with me is just be comfortable, be comfortable with who you are, and at the same time, be sensitive to who you're working with. That's always important to do. Being that, you know, you're going in different environments and different places. And, you know, even when, for example, you're going into a jail, understanding that you're going into a person's home, you know, this is this is kind of where they're living for the time being. And so you have to be respectful of that. Sometimes you don't know what their history is, right? You're going in there and wanting to learn and to figure out sort of what, you know, what, what brought that person to that place. And so, you know, being respectful of that, being sensitive to that, but also being comfortable. And knowing, you know, who you are, and, and what your role is in that particular situation. I remember, I remember, my first death penalty case, and Dr. Chris Haskins, rest her soul, she actually just passed away in January. But she, I remember getting this case, and I had no idea what I was doing. And the the, the attorneys had sent me boxes, like literally boxes of material to review. And I called her up and I was like, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. And she said, just bring everything to me. And I went to her house, and we sat there and we organized all of the paperwork. And she said, I want you to just sit here and organize this, but organize it in a way that you understand it. So that when you're going back to [inaudible] you go and you see this individual that you are able to draw from the information that you have. And so that's one of the best advice that I was given to was that when you get a case, began to immerse yourself in the case and organize your materials and organize your thoughts and your questions as you began to delve through the case so that you have a good and clear understanding about what it is that you need. What you have what you don't have and what you want to glean from the defendant when you see the defendant.

Thank you. Good advice. What about you, Virginia?

So I've been very lucky to have incredible mentors throughout my career. I've actually gotten really good advice from Dr. Patricia Zapf, repeatedly, especially every single time I was considering making a sort of a career change. But as you asked that question, I think I'm gonna flip the question because it reminds me of one time when I got what I felt was bad advice. But that actually ended up provoking a lot of thinking and being motivating. And so when I was considering I had worked in forensic hospitals in the courts, primarily doing the practicing forensic psychology for my entire career. And then in 2016, there was a change in the health care provider for the New York City Jail system. So there used to there used to be a private health care provider and the city transferred the contract to New York City Health and Hospitals, which is the largest provider of public health care in the country. And I was presented with the opportunity of working of working in the New York City jail system. And I thought a lot about it, because correctional psychology was not something I had learned much about. It wasn't I had never worked in a jail before. I've worked with a lot of people who had been to jail and forensic hospitals, I mean, the courts, but not in their environment. And I had a lot of peers. And so someone, when I said, What do you think about me you know, doing this said to me, Well, I think you'll be committing professional suicide. And the reason why he said that was because Rikers Island has a really bad reputation as it should, because it is a jail where, you know, bad things have happened throughout history. And so that advice made me well, I hadn't really thought about my reputation, that was not something that I was considering within my decision. But that advice made me think about, I suppose not only about my reputation, but also about what does it mean, when we psychologists decide to work in environments that are harmful to people? Does that reflect on our work? Is that ethically an issue? And so it really made me think a lot about it. And in fact, it ended up motivating me to take the job and thinking, Well, if this is a place that has such bad reputation, when when there are so many people that are being harmed, doesn't that mean that maybe they need some people who are motivated that are bringing evidence based practices that have a social justice framework to the setting, right? If we all think like that, and we abandon those, those environments, then they get worse and worse. And so that was an interesting piece of advice that I felt was bad advice, but turned out being being really helpful to me. Thank

you for that. I love it. And I love that you actually ended up taking that position. I know you've made a lot of positive change at Rikers Island when you were there. So congratulations for that. I know that I'm sure they miss you. Let's let me just shift gears a little bit and ask you both about you know, socio cultural identities and considerations and how these may or may not be relevant to your work. Monique, do you wanna start with that one?

Sure. Absolutely. Thanks. Social cultural considerations and identities are intertwined in work that we do. And I think about many of the different settings that I work or have worked in that age, socio economic status, race, gender, religion, immigration status even have played a role in some of the decisions that we have made and has been relevant to the work. When I think about forensic evaluations, for example, we think about, you know, the race disparities that we often see within the correctional system within our legal system. This causes us or causes me pause to consider, you know, why or why am I see individuals who are within the system that are of color, more than I see of other races, and I think that it's important for us to consider these issues as we are doing this, this very important work. As, as Virginia had mentioned, that oftentimes we are in settings where, you know, there are individuals who have done some really really bad things. But I think this is what's important to think about. I remember the first time that I went on death row, and it was in a supermax facility in Youngstown, Ohio. And I remember going as I was embarking on this evaluation. And I remember going to death row, and it was extremely quiet and extremely clean and pristine. And as I was walking down the hallway, where there was absolutely no noise, and I got to the end of the hall and the doors open, because everything is not touch automatic, and the doors opened, and I stepped inside. And I went into the room where the individual was sitting, and I looked at this gentleman, middle aged African American male, who could have been by father, my brother, my uncle, my cousin, could have been any any number of, of relatives or friends that I may have had. And I think, and I thought to myself, at the end of the day, these are just individuals, these are just people, right? These are people who have found themselves in positions that maybe sometimes they were not even in control of their, their psychological or mental faculties, when they were making the decisions they were making, whether that was due to mental health, or substances, or whatever the case may be. But, you know, this is certainly something that I think is important to consider, whether in the forensic psychology realm or in the travel consulting around, you know, where, you know, there are issues of, you know, work discrimination, microaggressions, and those types of things that, that we often see.

Appreciate that, what about for you, Virginia?

Yeah. So as Monique said, I think it's a I mean, it's a crucial consideration in the practice of forensic and correctional psychology, I think that if you don't have those factors into consideration, then, of course, you are not being competent. And I think, a few things I will say about that, one is that when I I've reflected a lot on and I keep reflecting on the ways in which I personally might have contributed to issues of structural racism through for example, the language that I use, or I have used in my reports. And I think that I started to reflect a lot more on that when I became when I started working in the jail system, when my role was not a, as a forensic evaluator, but was more as a treatment provider working with people who, you know, had experienced trauma, racial trauma discrimination, I became I became more sensitive to these issues than I was when I was just meeting with people for a few hours to do an assessment, and then submitted a report to the courts. And I think I think that sometimes we hide behind the neutrality and the objectivity when when we are acting as evaluators, and we might be afraid of talking about it in our reports. And so I think about times when I diagnose people with antisocial personality disorder, for example, which as I think many will agree is a bit of a problematic diagnosis. And and I think about well was was that behavior of deceitfulness? Or, you know, sort of opposing authority? Like, is it possible that that was the result of having been discriminated against, right? If you've been beaten up by police, you might you're not gonna trust police. Is that antisocial? Or is it just so you know, actually a healthy way of of adapting to the situation. And so, I, I think it's so important not only to have knowledge about the intersecting cultural identities of the people that we work with, whether in a treatment setting on you know, or in a forensic setting, but also to constantly be checking in for our own biases. And this idea of cultural humility, right, really thinking about how my own identity we all have a cultural identity, influences the way in which I perceive the person in front of me and the way in which I think about the diagnosis on my opinions and, and constantly be checking for our own biases. I think that that's something that we probably don't talk about in supervision we don't teach students about in the classroom. And we need to I think, as a field, we need to do a better job at that.

Thanks to both for raising those important issues. Let me ask you about the most important lesson you've learned in your career, or the most important personality trait strength characteristic that one would need to be successful. What are your thoughts on that? Virginia?

That's such a good question. So I think an important lesson that I've learned throughout my throughout my career is that have helped me understand the behavior of people who are incarcerated, and also law enforcement to a certain extent is the dehumanizing impact of certain environments, specifically, correctional environments, how those environments are, are can be so dehumanizing, and so desensitizing, that even people who are very well intentioned, who come to those environments, wanting to help, can end up just being numbed by by all of it, and then acting in ways that are foreign to who they thought they were. And so I think that constantly for I guess, for students, or people who are planning on working in those environments to really think about that, and what, especially when you are judging the behavior of of people to really think about how the environment might have impacted that. And then related to that, to your question of sort of what's the personality trait that you think it's important, I think hope, I think that if you don't have hope that things can get better working whether as what as a forensic psychologist or correctional psychologist, it makes the work really difficult, especially, I guess, I would say in the United States, where the judicial criminal system is, can be so punitive compared to perhaps other correctional systems that I'm familiar with. And so I think you have to have hope that that the system is going to get better. And as Monique said before, that, that you can play a role in that and still be neutral and objective and give voice to people who need it and and if you work as a consultant, or a treatment provider in forensic settings, that you can make a difference both individually and systemically. I think without hope it makes it's it's the it's easy to get burned out and to and to feel unmotivated in this job. So

I agree that hope goes a long, long way. What about your perspective, Monique?

Yeah I absolutely agree with that, you know, being optimistic, you know, we came into this field, or I think many people who come into this field come in with an optimistic view of how they might be impactful, or how they could change things for the better. And, as Virginia stated, you know, some some environments, or some stories that you hear, can be horrific, and can be numbing. And so it's important to, you know, have those outlets where you're able to sort of recenter and, you know, rejuvenate yourself so that you can maintain some of the optimism that we all start out with. I'd also say that, that it's important to be objective. And again, as Virginia had stated, you know, being unbiased, be careful not to judge people, to be careful not to make judgments about situations before you actually know, the actual circumstances around a situation. I have a saying that goes that everyone who commits murder is not a murderer. And so, really understanding and knowing and not drawing conclusions, before you actually know the person and know the situations is very important. Never assume anything. You know, listen carefully, you know, when you are in a situation where you are evaluating an individual or, you know, needing to opine something about someone that your opinion carries a lot of weight, you know, that's the nature of this business, right? The nature of this business is that we are bringing our expertise and that people are listening to that, and that carries a lot of weight. And so it's really important to know what your role is pay attention to detail. Listen, sometimes it's just the smallest detail that could be buried in a record somewhere, that can make the difference in terms of how a court or jury may see a defendant. Strong communication skills is important, as well as emotional stability. And when I say emotional stability, I mean, again, being able to revitalize yourself and and find ways that you're able to maintain your own self awareness so that you can be present for other people. Curiosity and persistence, it's also important that often times will drive me as I am working on a case or learning about a defendant and learning about how I might be able to tell their story, because everybody has a story. And that's part of my role as a forensic psychologist, and I believe our role as a forensic psychologist is to help to tell the story.

Thanks to both those are really great responses, as we come to the end of our time here, and let me ask you how you think the landscape of the field is going to change over the next five to 10 years? Monique, what are your thoughts? Oh, wow,

the sky's the limit. Right. So exciting. I think the more creative you are, that is really going to drive a pail how you advance in the career, I'm always thinking about creative ways to to advance the career and or the practice that I have. You know, there's there's many different niches that a forensic psychologist can have. And those interests that you have, are a way that you can intersect with psychology and with mental health. And one of the things that I've seen, just in terms of the trial consulting, I think that's an excellent way of combining some of the skill set that you have as a forensic psychologist into the the trial setting, but it's on the other side, right. So it's not necessarily the evaluation of the defendant or the expert testimony that you may provide. But it's using that skill set to help attorneys to understand their case and understand jurors and how things may be playing out within the courtroom setting.

Thanks for that. What about you, Virginia? How do you see the landscape changing over the next five to 10?

So well, I'll tell you how I hope that it changes in the I'll start in the area of forensic psychology or forensic assessment, I really hope that as a field, we learn more. And there are so many people doing research on this now, which is great. But we learn more about cognitive biases in forensic assessment and the factors that impact our clinical judgments. And then also that we are, you know, honest, and reflect on the ways in which forensic psychology has contributed to some of the discrimination biases and issues of, of structural racism within the system. It's so that we can do better and we can really find ways to to do better. I think in the area of correctional psychology, I truly hope that we work hard to better define that as a sub discipline. I, the reality in this country right now is that there are more people with mental illness in correctional institutions than in psychiatric hospitals. And that suicide is the leading causes of death in jails around the country and is three times as high as it is in the community. Unfortunately, psychological science has not been a leader with respect to informing practice in correctional settings. Part of it is just how difficult it is to conduct research in those settings, a lack of resources and staffing issues. But I do hope that we all work together to better define that as a sub discipline of psychology and law, to develop better ethical guidelines to guide people through the very difficult ethical and moral issues that you face when you work in those environments, and that there is more research so that we can develop evidence based practices in correctional settings.

Thank you for that. So before I let you go, one question I want to ask you is what is one question that you'd wished I'd asked you? And how would you have answered that Virginia?

So actually, this is very fresh on my mind, because I was just talking to two female forensic psychologists about this just today. But I think the question is, what is it like to be a woman working in forensic and correctional environments? And I think how I would answer it is that I think it can be difficult and that I've experienced, certainly moments where, you know, I'm testifying in court. And I'm being referred as Ms. Barber where my the opposing expert, it's a man with who is also a psychologist, and he's being referred as Dr. You know, whatever. And I think that, of course, we've got, we've gotten a long way. And I'm very proud and excited to see so many women who are now becoming leaders in our in our field. But I still think that we have a lot more work to do, I still think that, especially in the court system, men are assumed to just typically be more experts at everything, and that we always have this feeling that we have to over prepare, just to be seen as, as competent as men, and I live and work in New York City, which is a really diverse city. And now you see women graduating from forensic psych programs at a higher rate than men, and yet the main experts testifying in court continue to be men. And so I think that that is and then of course, in correctional settings, it can also be challenging. So yeah, I think we need to just continue working on, on, on also doing better at that.

Here here, I totally agree with you. What about you, Monique? What's one question you'd wished I'd asked you? And how would you answer it?

You know, I am thinking about that question. And actually, I think that a good question would be, what would my young forensic psychologist, person tell my more experienced? Or I don't want to say older, should I say older, more experienced professional psychologist, what, what? What? What advice would my older or more experienced psychologist say to my younger, younger person, and I would say, to, to know yourself, just to know yourself, know what you believe. You know, stand by what you believe, and be honest and true to what you believe, and why and continue to reassess why you came into the field in the first place. And I think about one of the best compliments that I was given. And this was pretty early on in my career, where I was really striving to sort of prove myself and an attorney came to me and said, you know, Dr. Coleman, we really appreciate your opinions, because we know that you're going to be honest and fair, no matter what side you fall on. And that has always stuck with me and resonated with me, and funnels me through the work that I do that to always be fair. No matter what side you fall on, no matter who called you to do the work, you know, whether it's the prosecution or defense or whether it's the plaintiff or the defendant, that you are true to true to your opinion, and and true to yourself and know yourself.

Great advice. Thank you both so much for being here. I have so much respect for the work that you do and for the professionals that you are and for like leading the way for other professionals in our field, both male and female, but totally take your point, Virginia about you know, loving seeing more and more women in leadership roles. So I'm very appreciative of you both for being here. You're both amazing to work with and I've had the privilege to work with each of you in different contexts and I look forward to continuing to do so. And thank you so much for being here and part of this podcast. So for the listeners, we'll add some links into the information about the podcast and thank you for listening.