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EP 275 - Lissette Calveiro | Otter.ai

EP 275 - Lissette Calveiro

Ellen Yin48min

Ellen Yin

00:00

You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 275, hey friend, a quick heads up before we dig in. We unfortunately experienced some technical difficulties with the first few minutes of less audio in post production. So please bear with us if it sounds a bit glitchy at the beginning, the quality goes back to normal about five minutes in today's case study centers on a highly requested, sparsely covered topic on our podcast, adding sponsored brand deals and brand partnerships as a revenue stream to your business. In our conversation with Lisette Calveiro, CEO of influence with impact, we specifically lean into the pricing and negotiation strategies that generated her $130,000 from brand partnerships this year alone, accounting for 20% of her overall 2024 revenue. Lissette breaks down all the overlooked pricing factors beyond views and follower counts that net her higher rates and give her leverage in negotiations with brands, as well as reveals transparent insights on creator earnings and recent brand deals the Ellen

Ellen Yin

01:03

Welcome to cubicle to CEO, the podcast where we ask successful founders and CEOs the business questions you can't google. I'm your host. Ellen Yin, every Monday, go behind the business in a case study style interview with a leading entrepreneur who shares one specific growth strategy they've tested in their own business exactly how they implemented it and what the results and revenue were. You'll also hear financially transparent insights from my own journey bootstrapping our media company from a $300 freelance project into millions in revenue. You

Ellen Yin

01:45

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show today, I'm joined by Lissette Calveiro, and I'm really excited because Lissette's case study is all about brand deals and paid brand partnerships, which is something that you know, I've taught personally at my own retreat, but it's not something that we talk about a lot here on the podcast. So I love jamming with someone in this space who can really open your eyes to this revenue stream and all that's possible. So I'll give you the teaser of Lisette case study in just a moment. But first, welcome to the show.

Lissette Calveiro

02:17

Thank you. Thanks for having me

Ellen Yin

02:19

so excited to have you here before we get actually into the details of your case study. I would first love for you to share with our listeners your own cubicle to CEO story. What was that final catalyst that led you to creating influence with impact? Or maybe you had something before that even. So, what was that catalyst that led you to entrepreneurship?

Lissette Calveiro

02:38

Yeah, it's actually very literally. I was thinking to myself, I keep building, you know, departments in the influencer space for other people. Why don't I just build my own company? And what I had traditional story, it was the side hustle for a pretty long period of time, I would say, about two years before I actually, you know, quit the cubicle job and I started with brand partnerships. That was my soul side hustle dream. And you know, I know we're going to dive into it, but it's so fascinating to see how the space has changed. My first brand partnership being in 2017 and we have changed a lot since then. It sounds weird to say back in my day, and you know what was, what I was also doing at the time was consulting different advertising agencies in house about how to work with influencers. Said, Why am I not just taking this full time? And that was my story.

Ellen Yin

03:32

I love that. You know, 2017 was about a year after I had graduated college, and I can totally relate, like I knew about influencer marketing, and I had been kind of exposed to this space in college, but it was still very much the beginnings, I feel like, of what it's become today, this entire industry, which, you know, I think the growth and evolution of the Creator industry, even the word creator, instead of like influencer, kind of taking center stage, I think just shows how this space is always evolving. But I think a lot of people get scared off from trying to do any brand deals or brand partnerships in their business if they don't identify as a traditional influencer or whatnot.

Ellen Yin

04:14

So that's why I'm so excited to bring this conversation to the table today with you, and we set case study, just so you all get a preview, is all about how she's able to generate about 20% of her business from brand deals, specifically so in a year, making about $130,000 so imagine having a six figure revenue stream. It's not even the entirety of her business, but a huge player right in in driving revenue and growth for your company. So we'll really be focusing on the negotiation aspect today in your case study. But let's kind of look at the numbers first. So especially this last year, as we're reflecting on 2024 how many unique deals does that average? Of $130,000 actually represent?

Lissette Calveiro

05:03

Yeah, that's actually a really good question. And I will say, if I'm thinking about this is a good note the amount of brands I'm working with. It's actually only about 10 to 12 brands the whole year, but a lot of them will give me multiple touch points, which is what really helps drive that price up.

Ellen Yin

05:21

I love that less negotiations, less contract work, but repeat campaigns. So for our listeners, if you've never approached a brand deal before, I almost like to think about it like it's not really that different than working with a client and selling a service, right? You're just trying to renew that business or keep them on retainer, or whatever that looks like. So Okay, 10 to 12 brands that you've worked with. What is your average deal size per campaign that you book?

Lissette Calveiro

05:48

Yeah, it's anywhere from eight to 10. I will say five figure deals are pretty normal, if they are kind of like a year round or and I know, probably get into this when they involve more than just content. I've actually been hired for a few things. You know, when you're a thought leader and a content creator or influencer, whatever label you want to use, a lot of times, I've actually been hired to do side projects. One Campaign I was doing the contents, what you think the hashtag ad, but they also purchased some of my strategy sessions that I could give to creators. So it's very unique where they kind of add in the other services already known for.

Ellen Yin

06:24

I love that. And eight to $10,000 I mean, that's normal to you. I think it's a it's a huge deal. And it really shows how it's not just like you said about posting on Instagram or posting a tick tock and saying, Hey, this is my rate per, you know, short form video that I put out that you can really get so much more integrated with a brand. So let's talk about that piece actually, because I think so many creators, so many business owners, oversimplify, or maybe over prioritize how much their audience size plays into how much they can charge for a brand deal. So you and I are very much of the same mind that rates are so much more than just the size of your following and how much it costs for you to, you know, post a video on Instagram. And I mean, we both probably have experienced that there really is no one size fits all standard pricing across the industry. It very much is kind of like a wild west, but you have a really unique way of looking at how you break down a rate.

Ellen Yin

07:24

So let's go through each aspect of what you consider when you're compiling your own rates for these brand deals, starting with deliverables. The most obvious one tell us maybe use a recent campaign as you're walking through these different aspects.

Lissette Calveiro

07:38

Okay, so for me, rates really start with the deliverable, and the way that I like to calculate it is anywhere from one to 5% of whatever audience I have on the platform they're asking for. And that range, I know we'll talk about negotiation, but it kind of helps me stay within a range that feels equitable, that feels good, and I feel valued for my time. And that is, again, only line item number one. But I like to kind of also figure out, you know, we all have times and seasons where maybe our engagement or our views aren't as good as they always are. So that also helps me, you know, navigate rates in a very fluid way. Then after the deliverables, you want to consider licensing and usage of your content, and something that I think a lot of people don't realize it sounds really great for a brand to tell you, we are boosting your content to everyone, but when that happens, that means your name and likeness is being used for a longer period of time.

Lissette Calveiro

08:32

That also means maybe the competitors of that brand see the ad and they think, well, we can't really work with you, because we see you're working with XYZ brand, so you really want to charge what I do is percentages, almost like a tax, a tax for that, once I figure out that bundle of deliverables I'm adding, starting at 20% for whatever the different asks are, and I just kind of try to go up on that, that usage tax basically based on how widespread my name and likeness will be used. Because the more widespread it is, the higher the risk of me not getting other jobs in that category, right, and the longer that my name in likeness is used.

Ellen Yin

09:08

Oh, I'm just gonna say such a great point about the opportunity cost. Like, what other deals are you potentially leaving off the table? Because, like you said, your brand is wrapped up in this other deal. But before actually, you continue your the rest of your thought, I do want to backtrack real quick to that first piece of you said charging between one to 5% of whatever audience size that content is getting in front of. I just know that there are some listeners who have literally never done a brand deal before, and they might be already lost just at that point. So can you give, like, a quick example of what you mean by that?

Lissette Calveiro

09:37

Yeah, so deliverables, I like to explain as the physical, literal thing you're making and posting. So for example, they might tell you one Instagram reel and a story set, you know, of three frames. So those would be two deliverables. I would use that percentage for each of those. And for example, maybe I'm having a really good season where every reel is going viral. Things are looking really good. But then I. Also might have the same season where my stories aren't getting as many views, not as many clicks. So that's how I can use that dynamic range to go up or down. And also think about your deliverables. Sometimes they may not be posts, sometimes they may also be, you know, a strategy session that they hire you for. You may do some consulting for the brand as well, because of your authority. So in deliverables, I know those kind of extracurricular don't really work in a, you know, audience size based piece, but I always say, think of your authority and charge accordingly for all of those extra pieces.

Ellen Yin

10:35

That makes sense. So like, let's say, for example, that your reels are getting an average of 10,000 views each time you post. So you're saying, in this particular instance, if the brand asked you for an Instagram reel, you would say, Okay, 5% of 10,000 is what? What is that like? 500

Lissette Calveiro

10:52

No so I'm actually saying percentage of your audience size. So not audience views, yeah, gotcha. Views fluctuate so much, right? But what I'm trying to explain is the price might go up or down depending on how good your content has been performing, right?

Ellen Yin

11:07

So it's almost like a premium.

Lissette Calveiro

11:09

Exactly, okay

Ellen Yin

11:11

so let's go back. Okay, same, same deal. Then, like, let's say your total audience size is 10,000 followers you you're saying normally a reel would maybe cost the brand 5% of 10,000 followers. So 5% of 10,000 again, I'm doing the math. Is that $500 is that math correct

Lissette Calveiro

11:28

I'm like doing the math in my head? Right?

Ellen Yin

11:30

Let's, let's say, for instance, that is the right, the right answer. Then you're saying, from there, if you're, you know, reels are taking off. They're going viral. You might add an extra premium to that and say, Okay, actually, right now the reel is going to cost you like $750 because, you know, it's been performing extra well lately,

Lissette Calveiro

11:49

correct, And that's actually line item number one. So I find that you're probably not even stopping at 700

Ellen Yin

11:56

Okay, amazing. That's super helpful. Helpful. Okay, go back to your previous thought. Sorry, I had to interrupt your train of thought just because I knew some I knew some of our listeners might be a little lost, and I wanted to set that foundation before we get there. But yes, you were talking about usage and the usage tax. So continue on that, on that, yeah, and

Lissette Calveiro

12:12

thank you for doing that, because I think there is that misconception that you can only charge for the thing that's going live and based on your following. And I think that this also affects smaller creators in particular, and we'll get into that lie down. Number six is, you know, have to also think about the labor like you might have 1000 followers, 1% I don't want you charging $10 for a post, right, if I'm doing the math correctly, but I want you to consider as a starting point, and then adding in these different premiums that are going to get you to more equitable price. So usage being that other piece that and hey, every single contract will always state the deliverables. State the literal thing. Pieces of content you're making, they will always have language around usage.

Lissette Calveiro

12:57

So even if you didn't get that upfront, ask about it, because it will be there. You know, I've had some brands who are like, I want to completely buy out your content. And this happened to me, actually, with a long term partner who loved the content that I was making, and they said it's been performing really well on our website. What does it cost to buy it out? That's going to cost you probably in the five figures, because you're going to use that photo until who knows when, right? So really explore. And this will talk about negotiation, but that's one of the pieces. Is you really have to understand the full scope of the work that you're performing, and it doesn't only include the thing that's going live

Ellen Yin

13:33

so smart. So the usage piece just a quick context for, again, if this is like, a new term to you, so like, in least that's case, if, in this example, like if she was charging for an Instagram reel and a set of stories, the usage is like, okay, in addition to me posting it on my channels, you're now wanting to utilize my content. Maybe the brand wants to repost it on their channels, or maybe the brand wants to take this piece of content and put ad spend behind it. That's all additional usage, and that's what you're saying, that you're charging that 20% is it 20% of what the original deliverable cost? Is that? What you're saying exactly, okay, and is that 20% every month that they're paying? So like, if they want three months of usage on this rail, are you charging 20% every month, or total

Lissette Calveiro

14:17

correct every and the other piece to also remind people of is, again, I don't want to over complicate. There's so many words they use, like white listing and this or that. Just ask the brand to clarify. Hey, how long are you actually going to be using my content? And can you clarify in what way? Because another thing I see often is they'll say something like one year of paid usage rights, and all they literally mean is, at some point in this year we want to use this in an ad. So I always like to clarify, because these costs do add up. You don't really want to give them a big sticker shock just because they, you know, over complicated the terminology they were using.

Ellen Yin

14:56

Oh yes, I love that. And speaking of terminology. And like sometimes being sneaky about the way they fit it into contracts. I've noticed lately that a lot of brands, they'll put some sort of clause in the contract that's like some version of work for hire, which essentially, right, just means that, like any content you create under this campaign is theirs outright. They own it outright. And that is one that I always tell people, you've gotta double check is not in the class, especially if the content you're creating, like, if you are an expert and part of your content includes your intellectual property, like, your strategies, your whatever that you're teaching in the content, if you sign that over to them, you now don't own that that IP and so that that's a really great point to like, remember to look for different ways that a brand might word the same idea.

Lissette Calveiro

15:43

And it's so interesting because it just really depends on their legal team. A lot of brands will say, Well, you know, to save our butts, we need to make sure that we just buy out this content, but we didn't talk about that. You talked about paid ads. So always strike it through, unless literally, you're talking about a complete buyout of your intellectual property, which, again, that's five figures, plus.

Ellen Yin

16:03

That's really great to know to set that standard for, for, yeah, that level, not even of usage of outright ownership. The third thing that you've kind of already previewed or referenced is the production cost, like your actual labor to create the content. Tell us how you think through that for yourself, especially if there's, like, a recent, maybe larger campaign that you did, how you kind of tallied that labor cost for yourself?

Lissette Calveiro

16:26

Oh, yeah. So when you're doing a brand campaign, something that's just a part of all of these is a brief. So you will get a creative brief that tells you, I want you to make this type of content at this length, right, especially with Instagram reels. Now it could be a quick trend that's eight seconds, or it could be a one minute long video where you're doing dynamic locations you're speaking to camera. So really understanding what the content you need to make up front is pretty important, because that way you'll be able to price your labor accordingly. So what I like to tell people is, when you've got the brief start to just map out from a very high level, right? What do you think you're going to make for this? In one recent example, I was able to charge $7,000 and by the way, my starting rate is anywhere around 4000 for one deliverable on Instagram, it can go up or down, let's say stories only.

Lissette Calveiro

17:16

Yeah, that might be lower, because I know it's only going to a very tight knit community, but that's kind of where I like to start. And for this post, I was actually able to charge 7000 there was usage involved that kind of struck the price up. But the really important piece is when I asked for the brief, it was asking for a high quality video, one minute long, minimum, where I was talking about business trends. And, you know, they wanted me to submit the script, which I always recommend, actually, because it'll reduce the amount of edits you have. So doing this, I looked at it and said, I'm gonna have to pull out my professional camera. I'm gonna go to different locations. I know from start to finish. This is probably gonna take me at least eight hours, like it will be a whole day, collectively, of me making editing this content. So this piece does take a little bit more of experience.

Lissette Calveiro

18:04

You may not get it right the first time. You may be like, Wow, I spent like a whole week on this, and it's okay next time. You know it's a charge, right? So once you figure out the amount of labor and hours that might take, I tell all my clients, and what I do is give yourself an hourly rate that feels good for your level of experience. For me, I use professional equipment. I'm on Premiere Pro editing videos. I'm not doing mobile video editing. All of that takes a lot more time. So I am adding, you know, a pretty high hourly rate. When you multiply it by all the hours I'm spending, that's going to be a really nice premium that I get to add on top. And I think again, back to that smaller creator, even if you're just making right air quotes, just making iPhone videos, you know, quick eight second trend, you probably spending time researching trends, finding what music, you know, submitting captions and submitting things back and forth with the client. That is labor, that is time.

Lissette Calveiro

18:59

So I really want to make sure that you're not charging $10 of course, that you're asking yourself, if I was consulting this brand, if I was a social media manager, what am I charging hourly? And if you have no idea, you can go to websites like Upwork, right? And look up freelancers, look up what they're charging. Come back and say, All right, if a video editor is charging $80 an hour, I'm gonna charge $80 an hour, and I know that this campaign is going to be 10 hours. So there you've got $800 math is not my specialty, but I think that's where we're at.

Ellen Yin

19:31

Yes, no, I think you nailed that math. And you are, you are so right that the audience district this, why call it is distribution, right? Like, how many people will this content get in front of? Is only one layer, like you said, of the value that you bring to the table, and one way that just to add on to what you shared. I feel like that. I like to think about it, is if these brands weren't hiring you as this all in one Creator, business owner, to be the talent to edit the video to, you know, produce all the things they. Would separately have to go out and hire like, a video editor. They would separately have to go out and hire an actor to like, deliver the lines. They would have to hire a writer to script the script. They would have to hire maybe a set production person to like, find the location, to get the props to.

Ellen Yin

20:15

All of these things have cost incurred in them, and so I think it's really great that you're encouraging smaller creators not to feel like just because they're audience sizes, you know, a couple 100 people, that they don't have value, that they should be compensated for exactly all right, offline needs, this is the one that I'm most curious about, because I've not heard it worded this way before, and it was part of like, how you think about your rate. So what's like an offline need that you have been compensated for by a brand?

Lissette Calveiro

20:46

An example is I recently did a pretty large deal with a brand where I actually had to attend a conference on their behalf. I wasn't even covering the conference, but part of it was showing up as a representative, showing up as part of their crew. So that was something that I knew was time. And I've also done campaigns where I'm also doing a speaking engagement, so I'm on a panel, but I'm also posting about the event that would be an offline need. We talked about kind of consulting and pieces like that that might be an offline need if you're doing a retainer with them. There was also a time that after a campaign, and I knew this. This was in the contract, they said, We want you to do a 10 question survey on how you like the product, give us feedback on the product that is some random offline need that maybe you don't know how to price, because they're just, again, pretty random.

Lissette Calveiro

21:34

So that's why I don't really bulk them into only the deliverables, because sometimes it's not even one hard thing you're submitting. It's I'm showing up to an event. How much is my time worth? How much is it stepping away from maybe client work, if you're kind of a hybrid creator, so that I could attend this event and ignore my emails for the day? Yeah?

Ellen Yin

21:53

No, that's such a again, it goes back to that conversation of opportunity cost, right? It's like, for every yes, you're giving over here to a brand, it's actually saying no to, like, 1000 other things, 1000 other potential monetary opportunities. And so being cognizant of that, I think, is absolutely essential. So thank you. That's really interesting too, that you say, you know, you were asked to attend on a brand. See, half like to a conference. I've been asked before to, like, speak on a brand. So half at a conference, but not just to, like, purely be in the audience attending, and so that's really cool. I love hearing the creative ways people are working with you. The timeline piece is also something that I am excited for you to chat about, because I don't know about you, but I feel like we often get a lot of really last minute requests. Like, hey, we have this big push going out in two weeks. Like, can you jump on board and be part of this campaign.

Ellen Yin

22:42

So how do you think about timeline? What do you consider a standard timeline for when a brand reaches out to you, where you're like, Okay, there's no additional charge here, versus what do you consider like an expedited timeline, where you might add an extra fee there?

Lissette Calveiro

22:56

Yeah, this is pretty personal, because I think all of us have different business structures, right? So if you're someone who is pretty out of your business, more of that visionary role where you know you can step in and out, maybe a two week timeline feels doable for you. You're like, oh, this is something I can do pretty quickly. And I know I have the time off. Otherwise, I would say, on average, a month is pretty standard. Anything less, you got to start questioning it, right? And like you said lately, especially in q4 it's like brands say, Oh, we have budget. Let's make sure we spend it. They're asking creators to do a lot of last minute work. So for me, who has multiple revenue streams, and who you know is advising my team and kind of very much involved in my business, I need at least a month, and anything less will come with that rush fee.

Lissette Calveiro

23:41

Another piece to think about with timeline is look at ask them for a full timeline. Because something that creators don't catch until it happens is they might say, and whatever feedback we give you, you have to turn it around in 24 hours. That might be really, really hard for someone. So you're gonna add an extra fee. Because I think what you said opportunity cost, it's taking time away from my clients. It's taking time away from my family. So you definitely want to make sure you add something, I would say, in terms of rush. The pretty standard place to start is $500 maybe for every week that you know you're being rushed. Just really give yourself again, the opportunity cost could feel so personal, because you might say, well, this is what I charge clients, right? If you're charging a client very premium dollars, like in my example, my strategy sessions are in the four figures, so if I have to block off my calendar for a few days to get this done, I'm probably going to charge at least four figures just for that rush.

Ellen Yin

24:43

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Ellen Yin

26:13

That makes total sense. Do you ever run into a situation where like, and I know you actually referenced this a moment ago, where you said, I actually recommend that you submit your scripts for reviews so that you have less like post editing work to do. But do you always allow brands to approve your scripts or your creative as part of the process? Or is that, again, a premium feature that you will negotiate for?

Lissette Calveiro

26:37

I always incorporate that. I always suggest that, because again, like, you want to get paid really well for your time, and I'm a big believer that you can probably make more money doing less work, right? So, yeah, your your time is very valuable. So for me, I also have the advertising background. I was working at Ogilvy, for those who aren't familiar advertising company, so I'm used to knowing, like you mentioned, the creative director and what they're sharing, you know, the actor and the lines that they're delivering. So I try to treat it in that way, but very simplified. So I always have a document that I send the brand that says, concept, right? And it's like one or two sentences to let them know the angle I want to take. And the second thing I share is visual examples.

Lissette Calveiro

27:20

So No, I'm not doing a whole storyboard like I might have done in the advertising world, but it's just some examples of my own content or other creators content that is inspiring me for what I want to produce. And then I give them a script. Obviously, it's if it's video. There are times where there is no video involved, and what that does is allows me to have way less edits I posted on threads recently. One of my humble brags is that I did eight campaigns over the last few months, and one of them had edits. And the reason they had edits is they forgot to tell me something. So it really wasn't even on you. Yeah, like it wasn't me, but it really is a nice way to save time. And all the clients I work with love it. I get so many emails from them saying you were so easy to work with. This is so professional. So a little goes a long way. You know, don't complicate it. Just a Google Doc with everything I just said, and you know, it will help you make sure that you're delivering everything on message.

Lissette Calveiro

28:15

This should not feel creatively constricting. It should actually allow you to be more creative, because you'll be able to sit down and come up with all these ideas and concepts and make sure that someone is on board. It's not someone is scripting you and telling you what to say,

Ellen Yin

28:31

yeah, exactly. And getting on the same page early on and having clarity on both sides is so, so important to save you. Like you said, the heartache of putting in all this work and then being told, actually you have to redo this entire thing. So I love, I love that you really make that part of your process. And I imagine because you are so easy to work with, because you do communicate so clearly, I imagine that's a huge factor in why brands continue to renew with you and bring you in for renewed campaigns. And so that's a great tip. The last piece of what you consider in your rate, your brand value, or I like to call it like the equity that you've like, built up in a space, and how people perceive you or your company. This one, I feel like sometimes can be the most intangible, because it's all about again, like I said, perception, right? So how do you think about this when you're adding this into how you finalize the price of what you propose to a brand?

Lissette Calveiro

29:31

Yeah, you know, this is the only part I get, woo, woo, because I'm like, it's just a feeling. You kind of look at that number and you're like, do I feel valued? Yes or no. And what I tell a lot of creators, and what I do is, you know, just start by rounding up. If I did all these calculations, and it's 5400 I'm gonna round up to six. I'm gonna look at it and I'm gonna say, this is a business brand, and business is what I talk about on my page. I'm going to ask for at least 9500 and that might sound like a. Big sticker shock, like, how did we jump from six to nine five? But you're gonna be negotiating. So if six is kind of my bare minimum, that covers everything I calculated, I'm gonna go higher up, because that's a premium for a category that I know I'm an expert in.

Ellen Yin

30:15

Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. And to your point, if they get you set to show up on a video, the way it translates to the end user watching your video and how much trust they have in your recommendations is totally different than, again, if they hired a random actress to recite the same lines, right? It doesn't, it doesn't carry the same weight, even if they're saying the exact same thing. So I think that's that's definitely an underestimated piece. So that was a great way to put it. It is very much, I agree with you. It very much is like a gut feeling. There's no science behind it.

Lissette Calveiro

30:47

Yeah, one thing I wanted to add, we hear the term UGC a lot, which is user generated content, and it basically means you're not posting anything. And something that actually confuses a lot of people is, well, how do I calculate my deliverables? You actually can still consider your authority and all of these prices, because, like you said, Well, yes, UGC sometimes is you're reading from a script and delivering lines because it's the brand's directive on what they're you know, you're making content for them to use, for them to put on their pages. It's not going on yours, but your authority is still important. I have a client that I work with that is in the space of hiring, right? And for me, I talk about this all the time. I talk about my team.

Lissette Calveiro

31:28

So while they are only paying me, and they actually do give me a script, I speak to camera, obviously I'm aligned with what I'm saying, but my price is higher, because when someone sees my face in that content on that brand's page, they're gonna say, Oh, wow. Lisette is saying this. Oh, she probably uses this, and I do so that is some value that you can also still charge for.

Ellen Yin

31:50

Yes, it's your association with a brand. It's like, the reason why celebrities are able to charge, like, millions of dollars just to show up somewhere, right? Because it's like their association with the venue or with the product just makes it more valuable, inherently. And so love that I want to next walk through, you know, I feel like what you've already shared these factors is hugely helpful in people negotiating and getting to that equitable value like you shared when they're proposing to a brand. But I also want to kind of walk through some common situations that creators or business owners might run into during a negotiation, and how you personally have responded in some of these sticky situations. So for example, like, what is a time you can think of when a brand proposed a budget to you that was much, much lower than you wanted to accept. They didn't have a lot of wiggle room. How did you respond to a situation like that in a negotiation?

Lissette Calveiro

32:48

That's such a good one, and I have plenty of examples of other ones. But when you know this happens quite often, especially brands, who aren't used to working with influencers, content creators, they are less likely to believe in the mission, so less likely to invest. And this actually starts, you know, a lot of people tell you negotiation, whoever throws a number first is the one who you know is in the red, like you can't be the first one to throw out a number. So a lot of people will say, ask, what's your budget? But the problem is, just because someone says what their budget is, that doesn't mean that that's your rate. So what's your budget? If you even get an answer is just going to guide you in how do I go from here in negotiating if a brand is giving you a number that's much higher than you even thought you were going to charge, awesome, there you go.

Lissette Calveiro

33:34

That's your new rate. Don't charge any less ever again. But if a brand, you know, this happens to me all the time, they'll come back and say, hey, my rate is, you know, when I add all these things up, $6,000 they say, sorry, we only have 500 so you have two options here. One, you may be like, I'm not even that interested in this, you know, partnership. I think it's gonna take way too much time, and I don't really care about this brand that much. Totally fine to walk away. But what I usually recommend is it has to be a combination of knowing where you win and validating why your price is your price, and trying to meet them in a place that makes sense. I will not convince someone with $500 to pay me 6000 but I might be able to convince someone with $500 to pay me 3000 for a very short video, or for a set of photos that I know I can probably do quickly, or maybe for two Instagram Stories, right? We have that I'm up, I feel good about $3,000 on that.

Lissette Calveiro

34:31

So you want to actually try to make it very collaborative. Say, Hey, I want to meet you here, and this is why, and something that can help you in that process. When you hear what's your budget, you're totally in the right to ask, can you tell me a little bit more about the goals here? And this actually happened to me. It was a thing now, two years ago, a brand that I totally love in the finance space, they hadn't really worked with influencers before. They said, we want to do something with you, something okay, that's like, very random. I. You know, people might think i'll post on your feed. When I asked for their budget, it was quite low. I think it was about $1,000 at the time. So when I went back to them and asked, What's your real goal here? And they said, We just want people to sign up for our app. Okay, and in feed, posts will actually not get you there because it's not clickable. It's actually, you know, no one watches your post as much as we say click the link in my bio, people will not go and leave to click the link in your bio.

Lissette Calveiro

35:26

So what I suggested is, okay, I can't really accept 1000 but what if we did 2500 and I'm going to mention you in my newsletter, which is an easy lift for me. I just kind of added them in the newsletter I sent regularly, and I'm going to do a set of stories, because I know it's more likely that someone's going to click on things because of that we did that they loved the results. They ended up hiring me for three phases of content after that. So really delivering on their on their mission, on their goal, is going to help you.

Ellen Yin

35:58

I am in 1,000% agreement with you. That's exactly how we approach all of our brand partnerships, too. We always start with the objective first, like, how would the brand define success at the end of our partnership or campaign? And then, to your point, it takes really knowing your audience and how they behave, right? Because if you are not in tune with your community, then you wouldn't have known, oh, they're probably not going to be driven to action from an Instagram feed post versus a link in my newsletter. And so I think that's an important lesson for all of our listeners, like really understanding your audience behavior and knowing what types of content drive what types of action, and matching that with the brand's end objective, so that you can have a successful campaign that results in, you know, like what you said, getting hired on for three more after the fact. So that's brilliant.

Lissette Calveiro

36:48

Yeah, when someone has low rate, is there anything else you can negotiate in a value? For example, if you're a newer creator or a smaller creator, and maybe you're charging 1000 already, that feels good for you, but you've got this person who wants to pay you $200 Yes, you may be able to ask, like, for them to boost it up a little. But what about also asking, Would you be willing to give me a testimonial after this? Would you be willing to, you know, give me access to your list of subscribers? Like, whatever you feel is valuable. Maybe it's a brand that you really want to work with, and not just, I really want to work with them, so I'm going to give them a discount. It's I really want to work with you. Will you guarantee that you will hire me for three rounds of content?

Lissette Calveiro

37:29

And I did this actually with a UGC project, so again, not posting on my page. It was a business brand, and they had really low budget. And I said, Okay, can you come here? Right? We, I think we got to $700 for like, a 15 second video, which I was like, that will take me 15 seconds, I basically said, but I don't want to accept one $700 campaign, and you try to do three per month, and they've done two to three per month. That's nice, because I get $1,400 minimum a month just by doing these videos that I already know how to make because I work with them so regularly. And what's interesting is, this year, they're one of my highest paying clients, repeat clients, and it's purely because we guaranteed that they were going to do higher quantity of buy ins, even though it was a lower rate.

Ellen Yin

38:16

So smart, yes, and I love that you brought up like, what are the other ways that brand can add value to make up the gap, if money isn't the only thing available for negotiation, which it never is. And to your point, that reminds me of, like, times that we've asked, like Tech brands, like, Hey, can you cover our software subscription then for a year, can you cover our travel costs to this, you know, event that I really want to go to? Or can you Yeah, like you said, can you use me as a case study and feature us in front of your entire audience? So yeah, there's definitely, I think, so much room to get creative there. And I love that you think in such an expansive and collaborative way, I guess on the opposite end of the spectrum, you know, well, not the opposite end of the spectrum, on an even lower tier of the spectrum, I should say, if a brand doesn't have budget at all, and they come to you with, Hey, we we want to gift you product in exchange for whatever that is, right? Yeah, do you ever say yes to gifted asks? And if so, why? And if not, how do you try to steer the conversation from there?

Lissette Calveiro

39:20

Yeah, it's actually a mix, mostly No, but what I say is, no, I can't guarantee content to you, but if you would like to gift me this experience, this product, I'm all ears, you can send it on. This has happened to me, for example, recently, and I'm a new mom, so they actually sent me baby carriers. And I was like, I'm in the market. I literally have a newborn. I hated the one I had. I returned it, and actually, this brand person saw my stories, so a little nod, you never know who's watching, and she reached out, and I said, Yeah, send them over. I can't guarantee anything, but obviously, if I love it, I'll definitely talk about it. I did end up loving it. I ended up buying another myself with my own money. And. Because I became such a loyal brand fan, they ended up hiring me for a campaign later on that was paid. It was paid really well.

Lissette Calveiro

40:06

So that's why sometimes I am saying, No, I can't guarantee it, but I'm happy to accept this, because you never know if that relationship is going to lead to something else in the future. Now, the idea of working for trade, I always have to remind creators that no matter what you're getting gifted, you will have to legally pay taxes on all that. So if someone is giving you a $3,000 gift card to your favorite store, that sounds really nice, because you might be like, Well, I'm not paying for that that I would have anyway, but know that legally, you know, there's a question market people actually do this, but legally, you should be paying taxes on that non monetary compensation. So is it worth it to take that $3,000 gift card for that place you already spent $3,000 on, but knowing you may have to pay a little bit of taxes on it, the answer for you might be yes, but you really have to just consider that cost of doing labor for them anyway.

Ellen Yin

41:04

Yes, I'm so glad that you brought in that additional consideration, because that is, I think, a common misconception for a lot of people, that gifted products can't be taxed. But yes, consult with your accountant if you're listening, if you're insured. This is not financial right? Disclaimer, we are not financial experts, but definitely consult with your your CPA. I think, you know, even when I'm thinking on times that I've maybe accepted gifted offers with the expectation of posting, it's only ever been I usually do what you do, like you said, like, hey, send it my way, and if I love it, you know, I might organically share it. But I think most of the time, if it is going to be in exchange for content, it has to be something like, you said, like, congrats, by the way, on recently becoming a mom that I'm already in the market for that I was already gonna pay out of pocket for anyways.

Ellen Yin

41:52

Like, if I was, like, redesigning my office, and I, you know, a furniture company came and said, hey, we'll, you know, gift you furniture. Sure, maybe that makes sense, because I was going to spend that money anyway. So excellent, excellent points. Are there any other sticky situations you've been in with a brand before that you want to impart on our listeners?

Lissette Calveiro

42:10

Oh yeah, this is a newly common one. So definitely want to raise the red flag. It's brand saying they will only pay and they'll use these terms for CPM or CTR, and what they mean is for the level of views you have and for the level of sales you drive. And that's really difficult, because, as you know, we talked about, the cost of labor, even if you know you're only giving the brand, and I say only, but you know 5000 views and you charged $4,000 right? They might be like, Whoa, that's $1 per view that feels pretty high in relation to what we can get from paid ads. But the problem is, for a paid ad, you are actually still hiring a production team to make the ad. So what I always tell creators, and this is interesting, because these are the people that are hardest to convert, and what you have to understand is that you don't know what team is reaching out to you. It might be a sales team, it might be the affiliate marketing team, and they don't understand the cost of labor, the cost of production.

Lissette Calveiro

43:11

So if you are open to it, I always suggest that you go in and you explain, hey, my rate doesn't only reflect my views. It doesn't only reflect the amount of clicks or sales I make. I also wear many hats, and that means that I'm spending a lot of labor on producing the content that you don't have to produce. For me, I am not a billboard. I am a real human with many hats. So usually, you know, it's when I say, like, not everyone goes for this. It's truly because it's people who do not have experience in this space, but sometimes you are able to convince someone that, yes, you deserve kind of a production cost.

Lissette Calveiro

43:47

And what I've seen happen, this happened to me once where it was a brand that I actually convert really high on. It's a health brand and a tracker of sorts. And when we were working on a campaign, they didn't have budget. They don't really work with influencers. We got like a very small, flat fee, plus a very healthy commission. So I think it was like $50 per, you know, person who buys this thing. That's really nice, because I know I convert. So I was able to not only make the small fee, I was able to supplement that with probably about one to $2,000 worth from what I saw?

Ellen Yin

44:22

Yeah, absolutely. I think those hybrid deals, as I call them, are such a great solution for those brands with lower budgets. But who, you know, like you said, you can convert well for on the back end. But that's so interesting. I actually have not had that come across my desk yet in terms of a brand, you know, offering based on CPMs. But it's interesting because as a full time podcaster, that is the language that ad agencies speak when they want to advertise on our show, right? They're always based on grades on per 1000 listens or downloads or whatnot. But I haven't yet seen that crossover, for me yet into the other content channel spaces like Instagram or. Email or whatnot.

Ellen Yin

45:00

But I even in the podcasting space, Lissette, I like I cannot stand that so much of paid media is determined only by CPM because exactly to all the things that you just said, it's not the same thing having a trusted resource or a recognized brand or face, you know, associate or endorse, essentially your product and service, and have them create the content as you submitting something to Facebook ads and getting in front of random people who don't have any sort of trust built into the relationship with your brand. And so I just love the way that you that you framed that for our listeners. Well, this has been, I mean, hugely helpful. I feel like anyone who listened to this episode just got like a master class in negotiating brand deal. So very thankful for you and your transparency and expertise there, where can our listeners continue to connect with you, learn from you after this episode?

Lissette Calveiro

45:58

Yeah, so my personal socials at @LisetteCalv you kind of get a little bit of the behind the scenes. My broadcast channel there is actually fully dedicated to all things creator business. And I will talk about, you know, brand partnerships and how I did them. I will talk about, not explicitly, what I got paid for, who, because, you know, confidentiality in our contracts. But I will give clues and hints and really showing them, you know, how I made a partnership different. And then influence with impact is our business, and that's where we give a little bit more of the broad educational client based, you know, testimonials and case studies for you to understand how it applies to different types of creators, because that's something I hear often, is, but I'm in this niche. Does this niche pay? Everyone pays. You just gotta know how to ask. So that's where you can find both things and across other platforms as well. Instagram and threads are actually the ones I use the most.

Ellen Yin

46:52

I love that. Thank you so much for your time. All of Lissette's links will be below in the show notes, if you're listening or if you're watching this on YouTube, in the video description, thank you all for joining us, and we'll catch you in next week's episode.

Lissette Calveiro

47:03

Thank you.

Ellen Yin

47:05

By the way, if you enjoyed today's conversation with Lisette, I want to invite you to get first dibs on a spot at our in person brand partnerships retreat here in Oregon next year, spring 2025 that's what we're looking at in terms of timeline. If you want to be added to this wait list, DM me on Instagram at ms Ellen Yin, and I'll make sure your name gets added so that you're the first to find out if we decide to host this again. This is where you can learn how to consistently land four to five figure brand deals and create a six figure revenue stream in your business with brand partnerships, just like we have, make sure you send me a message on Instagram and I'll get you added to the waitlist.

Ellen Yin

47:52

If you love today's episode, send it to a friend. Tag us on Instagram @cubicletoCEO, or give us a five star rating at ratethispodcast.com/cubicletoCEO. You can also access bonus episodes on our private podcast by joining the C suite, our flagship annual membership providing exclusive cash savings content and an offline community for small business CEOs. Check out the link in the show notes to join us.

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