Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.
So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started.
Hey, Becky, what's happening?
Well, I've lost my voice a little bit, so I'm going to have that Phoebe Buffay like sexy voice thing going on today. It's happening when we finally fulfill my dreams of talking to someone at Bridgespan. And having that conversation be about leadership and equity and inclusion, like my heart's just so full right now.
Yeah, like you've already lost your voice. Because you're so excited about this conversation, like you had it in advance. I mean, this is beautiful. So I mean, it is a big day around here, we are so excited to have Darren Isom on the podcast. He's a partner in the San Francisco office of the bridge, mispronounce Bridgespan, right out of the gate at the bridge brand group. And today we're going to have this really evolved conversation, we're going to talk about creating new narratives in leadership and philanthropy. And you know, we like to lean head on into these conversations to give you the tools to give you the words give you the language to really lean into conversations that didn't honestly happen a lot in our career. But we hope this is a safe place. There's no wrong questions. There's just an open hand open heart as we talk about this. But Darren just this incredible voice. Not only does he do this work through Bridgespan. And if you're not familiar with them, let me just say, this global social impact consulting and advisory firm that works with some of the most influential nonprofits, NGOs, philanthropist, all driving social impact, tons of free resources, 10s of thought leadership.
I have such a philanthropic crush on them. They're so great. So here's the deal.
We have Darren coming in today. And he spends a lot of time thinking and dreaming and talking about this space. In fact, he even has a podcast called dreaming in color, creating new narratives and leadership. And these are incredible conversations. And we're going to talk deep about what they're talking about what they're, you know, what leaders of color are experiencing, how are they leveraging their unique assets and abilities to create impact? There is no stranger to sharing his thoughts. I mean, you may have seen him in the Harvard Business Review this Stanford Social Innovation Review, all these places that he's always pouring his insights, pouring his heart. And he is just had this incredible career before coming to Bridgespan to so he was the founder and executive director of Memphis music initiative, which is a five year $20 million grant making community arts Development Initiative. He is our people. He loves the arts. And before that, he worked in the art design and public programming, the director of the Time Square Alliance, both planning and implementing programming for public art, and performance initiatives throughout the Time Square district. I mean, I could talk all day. And Darren, I'm so fascinated by your background, but he's a seventh generation New Orleans native is a delight to have you on the podcast today, my friend get into this house.
No, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you, man, you're really doing a great job of blowing me up. I feel really important right now. Great. Good. It's great to be here. And it's also great to have this conversation when we're having Juneteenth. So it's a great time to talk and chat. And just give you some insights on the world and the way things are working these days. I also love a Becky, I appreciate your bridge, bam, crush, I joke all the time for the folks out there that I think a bridge man has been kind of the INA garden of the social sector the way you if you want to bake a chicken you'd like to Google and a garden, big chicken, whatever comes up, you know, it's going to be good. People do the same with rich man, right. And so that's why it's important for us to be putting these these pieces in this language out there around equity and philanthropy equity and nonprofit work and what social innovation looks like in a way that's meaningful and important. So
Darren, we'd love to just give background to these conversations that you know your story, you're growing up your upbringing, probably very much poured into what you're living and what you're pouring into in your work. So we catch us up. I mean, tell us a little bit about the formative moments that led you into this work that you're doing today. You know,
funny enough, I think it's I was talking with someone younger, younger, some middle aged black guy here, right? I was talking with someone younger last week, a 20 something year old, young professional and the philanthropy space. And he was asking about, you know, how you ended up where you are? And what's the story there. And what's great about getting older is that you're able to look back at life and create this really seamless narrative, which seems so intentional about how you ended up where you ended up. And funnily enough, it was more serendipitous for me right? Like I think that you end up doing some really cool stuff and and over time, you can create these great stories about them. I am a New Orleans boy. I'm a seventh generation Orleans native, just a very proudly My family has been Royals 1790s That said, I'm a New Orleans expatriate. It's a California California is home now in California for some 15 years and minus that five year work in Memphis, where I was still living in California and working in Memphis, but my husband's Californians from down Santa Cruz. So You know, it's when I was in California now, I can't imagine living if you're stuck. Yeah. California for reason it's really a problem. And so I do think for me, I tell one story is, you know, well, a few stories of two points that kind of shifted my career. You know, I'd done I went to Harvard for undergrad, it's all the good boys have and went to grad school in Paris instead of students pool, which I'm on the board of now, we have an event coming up this week in New York, and study French immigration policy and all these really cool things from a Fulbright perspective. And I finished my Fulbright, and my dad came over for my graduation. And he said, you know, wonderful studies time to justify all of them time to justify those studies, which means get a good luck that came with came through, I'm glad you've been enjoying yourself studying in France. Again, however. Wonderful, I'm so proud of now summing it up in finance. So randomness who was hiring in 2000, right. And one big life transition for me was September 11, I was a 20, something year old, young professional working in New York, four blocks from the World Trade Center towers. When they fell, I was standing outside looking at them getting ready for a 1030 conference call with no sense of anything. And as I covered with the first building, you know, like you said, it's a New York story that that wasn't unique, but now it's unique, because I'm old and not living in New York anymore. But everyone had their New York September 11 story, but a joke about how the next day, my boss called Great guy, and he said I wanted to make sure I was okay. Sure it was, and he wanted me to call my projects, let them know they're going to be late. Like, I'm sure these folks have TVs, they know that our projects are gonna be late, right. And I hung up the phone, it was an actual phone and told my friends I was with I was like, Okay, well, dying at work is inevitable. I should, I should probably enjoy what I do for a living, which is the most Generation X thing anyone could ever say, right? And left that job some six months later and started going back started working again in the nonprofit sector, which I've worked through in college and grad school even, but hadn't done professionally. Since grad school, working with developed organizations in Brooklyn, working with some Community Foundation's incubator Foundation, Robin, Blue Ridge Foundation, which became part of Robin Hood, just doing really cool work in so that's been for me, you know, getting back to nonprofit sectors where I felt a sense of calling, where I felt like I had a sense of place in where I felt like I had the most to offer the world. And I do not judge anyone who goes into private sector. I do quietly, I do quietly. But you know, I think you should, I think the one of the biggest luxuries, my grandmother would always say when I left for college, went to Howard for undergrad, my grandmother sat me down and reminded me of the importance of an education, why education was important. As my grandfather looked into the room, it's like, you know why you go to college and my grandfather peakins like to make money? I was like, no, no, no, you don't go to college to make money, you go to college to have choices, because choices are the ultimate luxury in life. Right. And so for me, this work is all about having the choice to do the work that I find compelling, that I find interesting. And also to put my brilliant mind in a space where I think it's needed. We're in a capitalist system making money is not art. Right. And so I think that that's I mean, you know, no shade once again, shade, right, but but actually being able to solve for some of the really crushing issues that are stopping us from reaching our full potential as a society, and stopping large groups from being actually incorporated and elevated within the culture and the world. And that's where my, my calling has been in the work that I enjoy.
I'm so glad we're having this conversation. A couple, just reflections. One, Grandma Isom knows what she didn't know, let's just say that like that was a very profound statement. And that is a gift and a privilege for any of us who have the ability to have choices, to Lucky us, lucky us that you came over and poured in in the way that you did, because we're looking at the richness of what you have built down, thank you. It's real hand in your work. And I really look at specifically your podcast streaming and color, which is creating new narratives. And leadership's and you have had these powerful conversations with leaders of color to share how they have leveraged, you know, all of their unique assets and abilities, you know, to drive impact. And to talk about what success looks like, I want you to talk just about how you create these new narratives and leadership and what this has awakened and enlightened in your mind. Talk to us about like, what inspired you to start this podcast and what you've learned along the way?
100%? So great question. I also want to pivot just quickly and offer a quick anecdote, a quick story that I share all the time. And I lived in New York living here for many years, and some eight years lived in New York. And before moving out to the West Coast, and a really good friend who lived in the city was an artist. That's all New Yorkers do get that artists friend, and she had this wonderful exhibit on catcalling. And it was about how women are cat called in the streets. And what was interesting about that exhibit, you know, it's like a little there was a hall where you were walking through and people were basically video screaming at At the camera, what people have screamed at them. And you you're this gay guy, right? I don't care call for obvious reasons, right? And men don't care call women around me, right? And so there's a whole world that's such a reality for others that you have no insights into, it was so jarring for I was like, wait, you deal with this every day, no matter what you're wearing, like this is a thing, right? And so I mean, that's a loose story. But I say that there's, there's so many of us live realities that others don't get to peek into, right. And so I think it's important for us to use this story in this narrative work to make sure that people can tell their stories in a way that's meaningful and compelling. Because these are new narratives for some, but not for people. We're living them. It's only a narrative they know, right? And so our ability to actually give people the space to talk about their lives, talk about their identities, give them really the space to honor their stories, I think it's really meaningful and powerful. And that's what the podcast is for me. I joke all the time that people can't see. But you guys can see within the work itself that like, you know, you have various recordings happening. Within the work we recorded on different lines. I'm laughing half the time through the whole podcast, people are absolutely hilarious. The stories are wonderful day. No, they're just hilarious. These conversations have been so healing for me, actually, you know, through this process, being able to hear these people tell their stories, tell how they calibrate life, the meaning that they've gotten from their grandmothers, from their grandma Louis's right, and the words that actually have allowed them to soar within the professional space. And so it's been a really uplifting for me, that said, the whole thought process behind the podcasts was that, you know, my bridge, man, we love we got we love knowledge. And we produce all the articles that you mentioned, HBr Ssir, we do all the things. We're all excellent writers. So that stuff is true. And so the articles come out fairly effortlessly, and seamlessly and thoughtfully. However, there's nothing as impressive as a good story. There's nothing as impressive as giving people the space to talk about how they've calibrated their life experiences, and how they they actually find some degree of joy and hope in the world that we're in. And so that's been the podcast, it's an opportunity to show the world what wonderful people are out there, and how they're thinking about the work itself. And, you know, one of the stories that, you know, it's really meaningful to me, and I didn't share this in the pockets of computer chips in one of the later versions of the podcast separately. But one of the first people I interviewed was Urvashi. David, who was a queer icon, and just really great person and thinker was also close friend and ally, we lost early or late last year, cancer. That said, and the whole world loss, it was a big loss for all of us. That said, about a year or so ago, there was a tons of color network event. So all these smart, thoughtful people of color work in the philanthropy space, some of us philanthropy, from our own pockets, others were managing funds for others. And you know, we spent three days talking about all the world's problems, and how we're going to solve them. And obviously, they couldn't attend because at times, she was going through chemo, but she ended the she came up with the last session. And she looked around the room and we look bad or completely, right. Because we've been talking about a lot of stuff, heavy stuff, and the world is a mess. And she said, I know you guys feel dispirited. And I know, you may feel disempowered or overwhelmed. But I just want you guys to know that this is what winning looks like, winning looks like chaos. And I want you to look around the room. And I want you guys to know that this is what a winning team looks like. So keep pushing out the work. And for me, the podcast is an opportunity for me to show the world, the winning team that we have fighting for the things that we want achieve. This the world's a complete mess. But these folks are brilliant. They're so thoughtful, and we couldn't have a better team to be fighting on our side. And so so for me, it's been a really hope filled process. Wonderful conversations, reminders that we are doing. It don't feel like we're winning. I know every time we glanced over Florida, you know, our, our tummy rumbles. But we are winning. From an impact perspective and a success perspective. It's just important for us to keep going, keep pushing up the work, and elevating the folks that are doing the work and have the answers.
Goodness, I mean, just what another chapter, that in reflection, it just looks like ma'am letter confirming quote, you know, in your life that really talks about this next moment. I just I know you've spent a lot of time talking about this intersection of how you know, leadership and identity can really be intertwined. And that's so powerful. And I think it's something that I think we all wrestle with, but I think it's something you've explored a lot. What have you learned from that specifically talking with leaders of color?
Yeah, so John is a great question. I think one that's really interesting. I think that from a transitional perspective, as a society, we definitely at some point recognize the importance of diversity and recognize the importance of having diverse folks around the table. We struggled to some degree getting from what I call it's going to totally age myself like a Benetton ad, right? Like a diversity for the sake of diversity, right? All the colors right? And we've never actually been able to talk about Oh, yeah, diversity exists for a reason, like people of color bring different skills. And we haven't been able to talk about those differences in a way that's acid based. Right. And so I think so much of our work is about how do we explore the difference that you bring to the world into the thinking in a way that's meaningful and powerful. And I would talk about that in a way that is really much so acid base, because I talk all the time. The world is a mess right now. We America is not going to smart white boys, we have this current situation, like with the smart white boys have been working on it for a long time. It ain't working, right? We need a fuller team of folks who can no no easy button here, right? We just can't keep doing the same stuff, but the same people, right? And so how do we bring in folks with different sets of capabilities and skills and reflection points to drive the work itself? And that's where, you know, we did this piece around, really, you know, understanding what we can all learn from leaders of color. We know that we want to bring them around and have them at the table just from a diversity and optics perspective. But that's, that's only a start. And it's problematic, right? How do we actually think about what insights what skills they have that are really critical from a success perspective, not nice to haves, but critical if we want to get to the impact that we have, and that we want to achieve? And so with that, you know, the piece really explored all the things that leaders of color bring by navigating the life. They're born with these traits, right? It's how they're treated throughout the world, how they navigate the world, they develop a different set of skills, right? They develop a different set of muscles. And how do we take advantage of those. And what we saw is that there was some really clear differences. And the best way possible, as you thought about values and belief systems that drive them, drove them and motivated them. Talk about the life experiences and their attachment to their communities, this idea of America can be very individualistic. People of Color folks that come from marginalized groups, they really see a huge importance and being connected to a community and the role of community and driving impact and driving how they see the world. And what that is welcome a whole set of skills for motivation, relationships, and networks, skill sets and behaviors, things that people brought to the work that departed differentially, right, it made them different the work and made them better at the work. It made the impact more high achieving, it also made it more sustaining. And so the question became, how do we as organizations, give them the space, to carry out that work, and to use those values in a way that's important and meaningful, and to really value those things as the key to impact. One of the conversations, one of the most meaningful conversations I had during those talks with the various leaders was one with David Thomas. He's the principal president of Morehouse College, super smart guy, and is one of those conversations where you're the partner on the team, the team's taking notes, you know, frivolously good versus bad teams, they take really good notes, right. And for the paper itself, and he starts dropping gems, and I was like, shoot, let me take up my notebook and start taking notes myself, right. And so it's like, Oh, good. This is like, this is some good stuff here, right? I gotta write this down in my own personal journal, right. And he offered the key to success for people of color, and folks that come from marginalized communities professionally, right. And the first piece was one own, understanding what makes you different, and how you see the world, how you've navigated the world, all those things and being proud of it. The second was finding yourself in an organization or a company that sees what makes you different, is critical to success. Not a nice to have, but without that thing, they can not be successful. And the third, which was actually the one that made me pull out my notebook, because all the others resonated true. The third was surrounding yourself with people who encourage you to hold on to your difference in service of success for the organization, and for yourself, right. And so so much of this work is not about not only giving people from a bridge fan perspective, understanding of how those assets and those skills are critical to the success we seek within the nonprofit sector in the social sector. But it's also about through the podcasts and other articles, giving people a sense of community in the space, letting them know that there are others working on this on the same impact goals in a way that's meaningful and powerful. And other folks that are able to work with them and talk with them about what success might look like and how they can group together to make it happen. And so that's really kind of as we think about both the podcasts, and also the articles that we're writing is really giving people the skills they need to I was I say all the time, how do you unlock? How do you unlock bipoc genius? It's not just having the genius itself. How do you get people to space to unlock that genius? So that's the work that we're at, we're doing and trying to drive.
I mean, when you first saw Dave Thomas, I was thinking of the founder of Wendy's, but this
well, that's Dave Thomas, this was David Thomas,
y'all, there's so much to be learned here. And if I can share something a little bit personal, you know, you know, I'm a white woman in the middle of Oklahoma with two daughters and when they were born, and I've shared this on the podcast before I wanted a phrase for them that was so simple, about how they could see differences and see that they were beautiful. And so we came up with this rays different is great. And it was so easy to apply the first time ever when we were binge listening to wicked, the musical. Because immediately a two year old can say I don't understand why they're not being nice to her because she has green skin when different is great. And everything she's bringing to the table is great. And I, and I just think the celebration of differences, and to Grandma choices is a beautiful thing. And so I think you have taken a topic, which, sadly, can be divisive in this world when we talk about Dei, or you know, and even belonging. But I want you all to see what Darren is just said here, which is it's not just diversity of people. It's diversity of thought we talked about cognitive diversity all the time on this podcast, and what a luxury that is to get to understand someone else's lived experience. But I think the way that diversity of ideas, the diversity of where we've come from, and our traditions and our cultures, this is a beautiful thing.
Oh, it's it's no, no, it's such a beautiful thing. And I think it's even more than beautiful. It's critical, right? That we are able to, in many ways, practice some degree radical empathy. Right. And so, you know, it's and I tell tell folks all the time that my feelings in New Orleans now for nine generations, and I was, interestingly enough, the only generation to go to integrated schools, right? Those nine so they were de joueurs. They were legally segregated before me. My parents actually met desegregating a high school in New Orleans, right. They were from very different backgrounds, black families, but very different backgrounds, eight blocks away from each other, but very different worlds. That was from like old, wealthy, black New Orleans, Griffin, Black Pearl mom was a mom went to college and came back and was the president of Mary Sue Louis auxilary. At church, he never worked. My grandfather is a chemical engineer, responsive, multi generational chemical engineer, right responsible for putting asbestos in pain as he joke, we didn't know it was a bad idea at the time. It seemed really reasonable. I made it less findable and smooth, which was most important, right? So. And my mom, on the other hand, was, you know, my dad was one of two kids 11 years apart. And my mom was, you know, one of six kids. And my grandmother was my maternal grandmother. And my grandma, Lucinda was a housekeeper. My grandfather was a bricklayer, right? So these two, they grew up in pigeon towns neighborhood eight blocks away, eight blocks away, but worlds away, they would have never met otherwise. And so I think that there's, you know, there's power in my generation, and that I'm a Gen X, they're at us all the time. nginx should be called a Sesame Street generation. We're coming out of the civil rights movement, our parents sit us down in front of Sesame Street, and we thought all that crap was normal. We thought that was we thought everybody was holding it. We were coming out of surprise, no, but we just literally been beating people in the streets and hosting
Peter. And I just figured out it wasn't that way. About four years
ago, I have all types of stories about how and I went to these superduper, like progressive schools, they were doing the most, they were really trying to make it happen, right. And so we were offered some extreme gifts, in the way of thinking about diversity and equity and normalizing diversity and equity and understand that people come from different backgrounds. And that's not only a nice to have that some must have. That's what America is right? And so how do you make sure that normalized narrative becomes one that others normalizes? Well, particularly, as you see others pushing back, I was at a wonderful convening this past week, with Nicole Hannah Jones speaking. And she mentioned how the current pushback around the AI and equity all those things is expected. She's like, we've been in a world where if you use a movie reference, a matrix reference, we've all been given the red pill over the past few years. And so we all see what's behind the scenes, from a work perspective, an era perspective, we all see the inequities that are really driving this country, and they need to be addressed. And people just want you to take the blue pill, again, just take the blue pill again, right, you don't. So I think that there is a need for us to make sure that we live into this moment, and are really taking advantage of all the assets that we bring, and more importantly, see those assets as being the only way that we can live into who we are as a country. And I think that's because tough work. But it's important work. And that's why we're here.
Yeah, and that's what winning looks like that this is when we when we embrace that I really want to go deeper into this narrative piece. Because Bridgespan group of your team, you did the study of 12 playspace funders about what they learned by leaning more into equitable giving practices. And we would love for you to kind of unpack that for us and talk more about some of those equitable impact findings that you all saw that sort of lifted to the surface.
Yeah. And so I can talk about those ad nauseam if you like. I mean, the funny thing is that nothing here is really very new. It's all pretty straightforward at once again, the Bridgespan packaging very often helps. I think just putting out there in a nice, neat list is really helpful for folks, but these are the answers that Phil's been saying the answers forever. A long time. And so that work also worth noting that study happened during COVID. Right? So that was we were we were literally on the phone with folks every two weeks in the middle of what COVID. And then what became we had a whole civil rights movement as well, right in 2020. It's worth noting. And so I think that the goal there was to really understand if you are a funder, or nonprofit organization thinking about supporting more equitable practices, what does that work look like? And what what are the outcomes you have to achieve there? And I think first it was really understanding what the process look like, right. And so here, it was important for folks to look internally, particularly to please space funders to really understand what were their institutional practices and mindsets that would allow them to live into more anti racist work. So you have to really start internally. And it was one another wonderful quote, from this past weekend, someone was saying, no one wants us to stop talking about slavery more than black Americans. Were about as Doug was talking about slavery is everyone else, right. But literally understanding from a reparations perspective, from a thought perspective, where you are from a mindset perspective. So looking internally, for what what is white funders, as funders of people of color, whatever the case may be, to understand the mindsets that you engage in really understanding as well. What is the expertise that exists within your communities that need to be elevated? Right? And so how do you think about assets based approach? When you think about the work itself? So often within the philanthropic world? We come in? Assuming we have the answers write, employing and using outside models? As a way of driving the answer? And ultimately, any good philanthropic answer, any good impact answer is going that kind of garden, it's a good recipe. And the recipe has to be based on what the person already has in their cupboard. Right? You can't come in with a whole set of activities and processes, it involves a whole different set of ingredients, right? You have to figure out what the person has to work with. And it elevate that in a way that's meaningful and important. So really understanding what's the part of the exists within the community in the space that you work with? And how do you elevate those practices in a way that makes sense? And really gives the community a sense of belonging in the answer. Right? So something that's just being done to them, should being done by them for themselves, right within the work itself. I think also, you know, that all led to this conversation on how do you build power? And how do you see power as funders in the world itself. And so that comes in different forms, right. And so, you know, Bridgespan, we played a very important role of nomenclature. And Norman cleating has two definitions. So the nomenclature was definitely the person who comes up with the words in the language for things right, so they name things and the power of naming. The nomenclature is also from a historical reference anomaly was the person who stood in the king's court and you walked in with your name card, he read out your name, right? So he's basically announcing you to the world, right. And so I think for so many of us in the space, we have to think about how we're using words in a way that reflects where the world is, and elevates people from an asset space perspective, as the answer is owning the answer from an impact perspective as well. But also, who are we naming? As the answer bearers, right? Who are we drawing out as best practices in the world? Which narratives are we normalizing? Right? But think what's interesting within the podcast is, how many of us Becky, going back to the stories that we were normalized. As I get older, I am so much more appreciative of all of the narratives and I'm parents helped me normalize the things that I thought were completely I had no idea, right, that I was living in kind of a bubble, I'm so happy for those wonderful bubbles. Because they allowed me to kind of normalize things in a way that gives me the power gives me the grace, and gives me the perspective to carry out the work and in a world that's meaningful, and for me to help normalize those narratives for others as well.
I like you so much. Oh, stop. Just want I just want to give you a friendship. extraordinary human,
I'll pass you my address. I love friendship bracelets, I should do it. Once even more. So um, but
so Okay, Darren, I mean, I just think of like, what beautiful context and beautiful words like you're putting to these big heavy conversations. And at Bridgespan. Y'all have the ability to talk to funders. I mean, you're a convener of funders to what do you see? Is this narrative changing around people of how they're approaching funding?
I think that ultimately the answer is there a very clear one. As funders, fun folks in unrestricted ways, right, fund them, in ways allows them to develop the capacity to drive the work itself, that doesn't lock them into programs that you think of as important, right? So fund. Unrestricted and fun, big. I'm a big proponent of philanthropic inflation, right? We live in a country of people who are billionaires a billion dollars, Americans have no sense of money, or numbers. A billion dollars is 1000. Millions, where people that are worth 20,000 million dollars, and we're arguing over $50,000 grants like are you kidding me? Like your baseline should be a million dollars just on general principle. Right? Right. And so how do we have funders give away more money in a way that's meaningful and powerful? And also, why don't we have funders recognize that if you've amassed a billion dollars, you've probably done some harm to the world? And so how do you use your philanthropy to repair the harm that you've created and amassing a billion dollars? And that's a different way of thinking about philanthropy is almost like, you know, carbon maneuvering, right? But really, how do you think about the role that you must play, and in some ways, healing the world that you've heard in some ways, and amassing that much money, and that's a very different way to think about philanthropy. But I think it's really, it's a meaningful way, for folks who are really driving impact, to really think about it in a personal way that's relative, as a fellow philanthropist in the work itself, so big grants that are unrestricted, over longer periods of time, right? So really, you have to be able to be with folks, if you want people to do great things, you have to be supportive of them. How do you think about being a funder who is a long term funding partner, right? And then engaged in the work? And the answer? There's a wonderful Ted Liu, who's a program officer at Lieber Foundation, says that good funders should think of themselves as taking a ride with their grantees in which they're paying for the gas. Right? And so really, how do you think about the role you have in sticking with grantees over time recognizing the answer may change, and you have to give them the space to do that, and be thoughtful about that as well. And more importantly, and most importantly, particularly, as we talked about this conversation on seeding power, we'd have very often funders who are saying, oh, you know, I want to, I want to fund them in a way that's important. But I don't want to have any, you know, I want to sit back and let this happen. And, and I want to see power completely. You have to be aware of your positionality in the world, right? Your voice matters. So it's a question of Yes, fun them restricted in big ways that gives them a lot of space. But also, how do you use your power and your positionality in the spaces that you have it to make sure that their answers are being shared across the field, and that they have the space to keep doing the work itself. So you have to play advocate for the organizations that you're supporting, because you have to make sure that your positionality your power isn't wasted. Right. And that's where you think about good funding, being a good funding partner, and all those things, you know, with respect to what are the natural ingredients that people have within the space of the working in? How do you, you know, elevate the assets of leaders in the space itself? I think all those things come together just to create really great trust based philanthropy in a way that's very much so impact driven. No one seemed to throw money out the door. Right? You're you're investing in ideas that make sense with people who have the answers, right. When I worked in the private sector, we would spend, we would spend three days interviewing three roles on products, right? Should you launch a product at three Oh, has to be excited about it, right. But the number of programs and practices we put out in underserved communities without ever interviewing the folks in the communities? It's absurd, right? And so how do you make Have you really centered the people who are impacted by the issues to drive the answers based on their assets is important. One final point, which is kind of a loose point. But this comes, and this is actually something I've learned within the work itself. Liz Thompson, who runs the 1954 project, really thoughtful signal funder doing amazing work, equitable funding and education. And named after 1954, of course, Supreme Court decision desegregating schools, which did some good things, but also actually stripped black leaders of leading of Congress of the leadership of the education conversation, because once it was integrated, the black education conversation became led by the white leaders, right, who are responsible now for all those things. She talked about in our project with her the importance of leveraging love, in the work itself. And as I'm a west coasters, I'm all about throwing love into into bridge fan decks, right. But having this come from a Chicago, native carrying out the work was so meaningful, because she talked about how so often the space, we carry out strategy work, we carry out philanthropic work, but the work is missing love. It's impact oriented, whatever that means its efficacy oriented, whatever that means, but it's absent love. But when you send her love in the work itself, and when you actually love the community, that you're trying to uphold the community you're trying to serve the communities you're trying to drive impact with. When you work from a space of love, you work differently, right? You're more efficient than you could ever be. And you also honor the groups that you're working with. And as Liz always says, all that's done in love is done well. Right. And so how do we actually work from a place of love when we carry out the work with these communities? Because we'll get a better answer that's more high impact. And also, that's just more sustainable.
Don't you just feel like it all comes back to that at the end? I mean, it literally the word philanthropy, the love of mankind that has been at the nucleus of our work since the beginning. And so I very much appreciate this. I'm just really quickly I want to go to this notion of sustainable investments because you have seen a particular emphasis on endowing black LED nonprofits, and all of us who've worked in the space, you know, we know that endowments are often lacking for social change nonprofits, even more so for black led organizations. So talk to us about how endowing black LED nonprofits not only changes this narrative, we're talking about inequitable impact. But it's also helping us confront some of society's most pressing issues. What have you seen, Darren?
You know, in all of our work with high net worth funders and large foundations, we hold to the tenants that you see across the board, and that we've noted here, this idea of large, unrestricted gifts, this is best practices, when it comes to grant making, and that we carry out with all of our clients with philanthropic perspective, large, unrestricted gifts, that really allow organizations to own the narrative around strategy and impact. And that allows them in many ways to put forth the answer they know is the answer. I think that what we see very often is that organizations are playing what I like to call a strategic strategic telephone game, right? Where they're, they have a sense of what the answer is. But then the funder wants something specific and different, which isn't really what they think the answer is, but they need the money, right? And so how do you actually give organizations and organizational leaders, the opportunities to really drive the work that they know is the work itself and to learn from the community in the work, and from a power perspective to honor the voice of the community, as answered the work itself? And so with that all said, the work that we were doing around in downlink light led organizations, you know, it's really critical, ultimately, money is a source of power. Right? And so how do you make sure those organizations that are the most critical to success and impact in the work itself have the funds to be enduring institutions? And I think this is a very interesting, you know, as we were both carrying out the work, I think there was some things that were quite jarring. I'm a proud Howard, I had someone to Harvard for undergrad, you know, we were looking at endowments of black universities almost as a parallel for just as we thought about white organizations and endowments. And so you know, Howard is one of 107 Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Howard has the largest endowment of all those organizations at 800 million. 800 million, 800 million, right? That number is larger than the top 20 Other endowments combined, right. And what was more interesting is that Howard's endowment of 800 million is still less than Amherst is small. I mean, Amherst is great, great friends went to Amherst, right, but small liberal arts school and Western Mass 1.2 billion. And this was one Amherst is 1.2 billion is more than all 107 is sort of like college endowments combined. Right. And so this is when you see kind of how the the number oh, it's painful. It's all quite intentional, though, right? So America is doing exactly what it's designed to do, unfortunately. Right. And so for us, the idea of indominus was really interesting in that how do we we know this is a tried and tested way to give people power over their organizations to be able to be enduring institutions and to honor the fact that people are enduring institutions. And so how do we make sure that those organizations that we know are handling the toughest issues, and have proven their worth over time are able to get away this meaningful? The fact that organizations like the NAACP, or the Urban League that they don't have endowments doesn't make any sense whatsoever? None.
They don't have endowments? Whoa, whoa, stop the presses.
And so I think that here, the answer for us was really thinking about how do we both give foundations and those that are granting funds permission, as silly as it may sound, to endow organizations with something that's part of their toolkit, right. They think about, and also how do we give nonprofits a way of thinking about the work itself. And even with that work, as we were talking with nonprofits, it was interesting that we had to, I wouldn't say, teach them because we want to teach them anything, if anything we're learning and every conversation, it was interesting to remind them of the things that they should bring to the conversation, that allow them to have those conversations around and downloads this piece of really thinking about having a number in mind. Like what is the number you would have in your back pocket the way you know your mortgage payment every month? And your your your Starbucks Coffee order amount? Like how do you have that number in mind, if I would have sufficient numbers so much it would be and it's much I would need from you like pricing with pro pride right? Around the worker. So price with pride always right, and the work that you're doing? How do you understand that your proximity to the community that you're hoping to uphold and to serve right is your biggest asset, and how you leverage that asset and granting funds for organizations themselves? I think there were others that were very interesting as well, this idea of like, there are a lot of myths or a lot of narratives, we work within the nonprofit sector that are problematic. This one that a good nonprofit should put itself out of business. Sounds so honorable, right? I don't want to be in tears when I've solved the issue. As I say all the time, my podcast My uncle used to always say oppression in this country is clever. It's highly unlikely that you're going to solve for these things in 10 years, right? Things change how they look changes, right? We have organizations that are enduring institutions that are going to be able to shift as the issue changes and are able to fight, as you know, across the issue, as it changes in well, and so really, how do you avoid some of this language that in many ways, really doesn't set you up to be a sustainable organization, or forces you to disinvest in your organizational structure, and sake of programs and all those things, you have to be around? If nothing else, you have to be around in the future, all right, to fight the fight. So I think those are all things that were really important for us think about the work itself. And ultimately, how do we think about giving organizations a possibility of an endowment as a way of carrying out the work over a long term period of time? Or something that they should feel comfortable asking for and building? Right, not just comfortable, but feel compelled to do it? Yeah.
I mean, just having this conversation, just challenging the status quo and asking these bigger questions like, this is what we need to be doing, you know, this is the type of work we need to be pouring into as we figure out how to meet these ever changing problems. So Darren, you get to be in this cool seat, I think of you and your perch over here, getting to talk to all all these kinds of fascinating leaders, all these interesting stories, funders, there's got to be an intersection where philanthropy is stuck with you. And your journey can be personal, it can be through your work at Bridgespan. But take us back to a moment that that will be with you forever.
You know, I have so many wonderful moments from a philanthropy perspective, and where I've just learned so much within the work itself and where the work is so meaningful. I think that you know, one of the interesting conversations that throughout all the time my team is probably sick of hearing this, this. This conversation piece was one talking with I was working in Memphis at the time I was interviewing this, doing the interviews in South Memphis, interviewing sublet the Soulsville, black neighborhood, historically underserved neighborhood in the center of the city itself. And I was working at the time for a foundation that was interested in doing more arts investments across the city, in trying to figure out what was the best way to bring people into various arts institutions. And I've done this work before, it's so used to hearing your SS Grandmother, why she hasn't visited a certain institution. And you and she gives you the three answers you hear all the time one is too far away. Two is too expensive to visit. And three, she's not even sure what they do from a content perspective. And so for each of those, you have an answer, like a whole set of toolkits, you know, like, oh, to make pop ups in the neighborhood, right? Or like, really solid, like Black History Month programming, right? from a content perspective, we're given three cards, right? And as I was walking away, I'm sure being the black consultant asking these questions, she offered a fourth answer, which I'd never heard before, right? And that fourth answer was, oh, that place isn't really for us. If too many of us ship is gonna be a problem, right? Like this sense of a lack of belonging in the space. And that really stuck for a number of different reasons. One, because I knew exactly what she meant by that place isn't really for us, they say, they may want to move to me, but show up, you know, it's gonna be a problem. And two, I also recognize how much of that sense of belonging is important across all the sectors and all the works that the worlds that we work in. Because ultimately, you have a sense of belonging and a space, you will cross town, you will pay whatever the cost may be, and you will go see things that are very interesting, because you shouldn't be there. How do we get people a sense of belonging in all the spaces that we're in, and not a belonging, because it's nice to have you. It's just belong, because we need you. We're gonna fix this country. We need these folks to carry out the work and the thinking and to really unlock their genius. So that sits, you know, really strongly with me from a philanthropic perspective, how do we make sure people understand the sense of belonging that we have? How do we make sure that philanthropy is seen is not just this pale, male and stale space? Right? How do we make sure that people understand that philanthropy is a diverse space of people carrying out the work itself? Or should be if we're going to drive the impact that we hope to seek? Because if a broader group of people have a sense of belonging in the conversation, not only will it be a more fun conversation, honestly, and fun counts for something around here, right. But I also think it'll be a more high impact conversation and a more loving conversation. So there's that for sure.
I agree with you, Darren. And I really appreciate that story. And to be on brand as you're repeating the story that you say to your team all the time, I'll say the story that I repeat here all the time, which is just we have to think differently. And we have to embrace things that are different.
I want to I want to jump in there. So I think it's really powerful for us at Bridgespan was interesting is that we have our multi initiative and racial equity. But what's very clear with us is that racial equity from a philanthropic perspective is the best answer. All of our work centers racial equity, right? So it's not just a nice to have, it's a must have within the work itself. And I hope that this conversation is seen as a Northstar conversations, a reminder of a North Star that we carry out through all of our conversations in the work itself. It's all really powerful and really meaningful is well within the work itself. I do also want to remind Folks, that, once again, when we talk about equity equity when talk about bringing other voices we bring, talk about bringing in other perspectives. This is the only way that we're going to get to the answer, right? This This is critical. From an answer perspective, we have to have a fuller team with fuller perspectives. And I joke in the podcasts all the time that I tell the story of my great grandfather, my, my grandma Louis's father, was gay in divorce his wife at some point in the 30s, and live with his partner in the French Quarter in New Orleans in the 40s. And he had a partner, his partner's life partner was a Cuban American. And my grandmother used to tell stories all the time, about how the Cuban American at the table with all these black Americans, multigenerational New Orleans, would remind them of what it meant to be an American, right? And what it meant to be American was being living in a space of abundance, and recognizing that all things were possible, right, we're American, for crying out loud, we can do this the whole point of being American, right. This is an American optimism that comes from someplace. And so I think that as we think about these issues that we're trying to solve, we have to hold on to that sense of optimism, that hold on that sense of, in many ways, the opportunity that exists. And we live in to all the wonderful assets that we have, as a country itself. And I know that you guys wanted me to share at some point, one good thing, and this is I was looking for searching quickly for the quote, that I want to share that this is wonderful quote that I found at some point on Black Twitter, I can't even attribute it to anyone, I'm just a tribute to Black Twitter, because it's a wonderful force to attribute things to. And the quote is, we seldom admit the seductive, comfort of hopelessness. It saves us from ambiguity. It has an answer for every question. There's just no point. Hope, on the other hand is messy. If it might all work out. And we have things to do. We must weather the possibility of happiness. And so it's been wonderful to chat with you guys. And talk about weathering that, that possibility of happiness, which is not just possibility, but the certainty of happiness, and pushing forth in the work in the thinking. So thank you so much for your time. It's been wonderful.
We've enjoyed it so much to and we know people are going to want to connect with you, Darren so please drop all of the ways that people can connect with you. Where are you hanging out online? Where can they learn more about the podcast and Bridgespan?
All this stuff you can find on Bridgespan's website, you can look up training, please go to dream in color. They're fun conversations. We have another season coming up sometime soon as well. So it's season three. And so you can go to Bridgespan's website learn more about our multi initiative and racial equity at Bridgespan and what that work looks like. Learn more about the podcast. As always, I'm on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is bumping these days. But folks can feel free to reach me through LinkedIn through Richmond's website, they want to talk more about the work and we can share more about the work that we're doing as well.
Thank you, Darren.
No, thank you. You guys are awesome. This was a fun, fun podcast.
Hey, friends. Thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free. And you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom
