Hello, and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.
All right, hello. And thank you both for being on the thoughtful counselor podcast today to discuss your new book, The essential clinical care for sex workers, Dr. Theo burns,
and Jamila Dawson, Licensed Marriage Family Therapist, I am so happy to have you both here today,
I have already received a copy of your book. And I think I was initially struck by how this really is one of the first books of its kind. I mean, you are talking to counselors and therapists, and you are offering an evidence based sex worker informed therapeutic approach that is affirming developmental, social justice, focus, and I'm just here for all of this. So thank you both, for offering up your time today to talk to us and our audience about this important work, work and book, all of this.
It's an honor,
thank you so much for having Yeah, well,
I would love to get started by hearing from both of you about how you got involved in this work, and maybe your journey to specializing in the field of sex work, but also your journey to this book proposal and working together and what it's been like, gosh,
it's kind of like, both of those are two very cool paths. In terms of how the book came about, I got an email from editors acquisition or acquisition editor at North Atlantic books, and they're like, Hey, do you want to write a book about sex work and you know, something that's affirming and sex positive? And obviously, the question, the answer was, yes. And there was nobody else that I thought to that to write it with, except for Theo. Like, we had been talking about this for years. And so I really thought, this is something that both of us can bring something profound to. And also on a to the end, I've talked about this of disrupting kind of the there's only one person who has a viewpoint on this kind of thing. So I thought like, how cool is it to co write a book with my friend and colleague, and is an amazing, amazing thinker and writer. And just like the book is gorgeous, because of the
I will add that I think one of the things that is important. And Megan, you and I have talked about this in other spaces is just the importance of sex worker informed scholarship when it when we talk about mental health related to people in the industry. And so Jamila and I, when we first sat down with the editors to talk about the process, it was really clear to us that there were certain things that we wanted to be able to say in the book. And we actually kind of like did a little bit of like ground rules with the editors. And we were like, so here's what we're not going to do. We're not going to say that, like, these laws are great. We're not going to say, right, and we were actually really worried. Jamila, you probably remember the point where I was like, okay, so if they tell us that we have to like pump up foster sets, I'm out. Right? It was like
okay, boundary love it. Yes. And I was like, Yeah, we're united front. We're not.
Yeah. And so we were both really surprised when we got onto the call with North Atlantic. And they basically said, yeah, absolutely. We're totally behind you. And we were like, Excuse me What? Like, you're not gonna give us any pushback. And we were super stoked about that. And then I think we were also really clear with them that we wanted to have consultants who were in the industry who would we would interview who would read parts of our work, who would redraft them chapters and really give us feedback and that we were going to pay them as part of the process that it felt really important that their labor be recognized given met this is a labor focus taxed?
Well, I know that Theo, you and I have talked about this in the past, but you have worked clinically with sex workers for for several years. And you have been, you know, involved in this community in that capacity and advocacy capacities as well. And, Jamila, how about you? I'm wondering what your background is in working with the sex work population? Yeah,
I think it would probably begin, I used to work at different education based adult stores. The last being the pleasure chest in Los Angeles. And when you work at a sex store, you meet a variety of folks, including sex workers, and erotically professionals. And it was just really amazing to get a chance to support them, and again, doing their shopping and whatever they need to do. And also just hearing some of the conversations, you know, because again, you've got hours there. And so I would just hear both the really wonderful aspects of their work, but also some of the really painful aspects of your work. And I always knew I wanted to be a sex therapist. And so when I started school, this was always on my radar. And I'd come across Theo's work in the course of my training, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, participatory action research, and like, this is so cool. And so just when you're doing any kind of reading or work around sexuality, people have so many ideas, usually wrong ones about speaking about sex. And so that really, it can kind of trip my curiosity about if people are treating me as a sex therapist in certain ways, how are they treating people who provide erotic labor, and again, so I just started to like, become be part of more community and meet more people who are sex workers who had done sex work. And it just became very clear to me like we are profoundly, this is a population that's profoundly under supported. And then I started working for pineapple support. And that was very painful, because again, there was so much need. But it was amazing. Like, here's an organization, one of really only a few that are really like, we want to support, give therapy to folks who are in the adult industry. And so I've just kept going, because I'm like, I want sex is so critical. People who work with people's sexuality, and their bodies are absolutely critical. They deserve support and care. And so just kept going, like, hey, my friends.
Thank you both. And Theo, I kind of spoke for you. But feel free to add more weight, you know, and you want to say more about the capacity that you have worked with and allied with the sex worker community in the past.
Yeah, so a lot of my initial training as a pre licensed professional was in LGBTQ mental health agencies, and also HIV AIDS clinics. And so as a result of that, a lot of my early clients or I should say clients early in my training were individuals in the industry, who were either adjacent to or were working on erotic focus labor. And I share that story often that as a student, you're often like, Hey, I'm seeing clients and I'm gonna go to the research and find the research that helps me work really well with these clients. And I I shared the story that I would go to the library that can remember the table that I was at when I was like, literally surrounded by Article it's where it was like pathology after pathology and that there was such a need for healing as justice and and so in that moment, it's really thinking about there has to be another way that we serve these amazing folks who are not actually a problem because of the work that they do. I just remembering in a very early part of my training where I'm like someday I will create that it will not be tomorrow but it will be someday. Yeah.
And that sets off the trajectory for you not only to dedicate so much of your career to this work but also to meeting Jamila and CO writing this book together how
amazing totally
and you probably if you have looked at the book you know that Jamila and our our light intertwined in community mental health but then also intertwined like sharing an offense and we both like worked in the university setting and so it's interesting that especially before this writing, um Jamila was never that far from me like we would like shift away but then come back together and usually would end up with the two of us like having long conversations in some innocuous place like outside the university at like nine o'clock at night where we were like, We must write and we were angry. Right, yeah, exactly. Well, especially I think And for those of you that are listening to do any type of teaching or supervision, to watch the next generation inherent values that are so problematic, where you're like, oh, I want to stop the train. Yeah, I want it to stop. And I think Jamila and I would have conversations where we'd be like, Ah, this is so frustrating. And then, to have a moment where it's like, this is actually this is a shift in how we can think about not just work with people in the sex industry, but clinicians relationships and sexuality
itself. Because there's still, you know, we, that was one of the things we would talk so much about, there's still not high quality information and classes, in our coursework, about sexuality as separate from couples as separate from dv, or IPv, which is usually all clumped together. Yeah. And just trauma generally, right? Just have one big ball like, and, again, it's it's a very frightening thing, when you're hearing from emerging clinicians, these ideas that are archaic and harsh and humanizing. And the early career clinicians don't even know it. And if they think that they're being, I'm gonna get them out of the industry, or I have this client and like they do sex work. And, you know, and I'm just so worried about like, what kind of life can they have, I mean, just laden with assumptions that they're not even aware of. And so instead of getting mad at or shaming them or anything like that, it's like, Okay, nope, this makes sense, systemically, here's a chance to create something different,
right, this is our starting point. And I feel like the the book did a wonderful job at kind of meeting the reader where they're at. And if they might be starting from that point of just not even knowing what their biases are. I mean, we are inundated with media representations, misrepresentations of of sex work, and and also we surrounded by, you know, legislation that conflates sex work with human trafficking. And so, you know, misconceptions abound. Right. And, folks, as always, I so appreciated you saying that you mainly because there you have so many folks who feel like they are fighting for client justice and enacting sex worker bias. Right, you know,
right. Right Action. And
it sounds like this, you know, this work is a labor of love and rage,
and given
it is a fiery response to so much inaccuracy and so much just so many shortcomings of this field. And, you know, it's clear in your writing, and in talking to you today, that both of you have such close ties with this community with, you know, the folks who are, you know, at the frontlines of these causes. And I was wondering, you know, what was, if you had a central priority for you in creating this book, what was it? What was that that one thing where you were like, I can't I can't get this wrong, I have to get this right. Hmm.
So Oh, go ahead. No, no, no, no, go, go.
Well, no, I guess I want to go back really quickly, because this ties into your question, which is, I think one of the things that also has happened for me as a result of doing work in the sex industry is that I have created spaces for people in my personal life to also talk about their participation in the industry. And so it's now not just something that I do for work, it's also something that is part of my community, right? That when I have been open, as is true with almost everything we do, as therapists, when we do the internal work, right, for our professional life, sometimes our personal life catches up. And I I definitely feel as though, since people have known that this is something that I do work, and so many loved ones have come forward and been like, oh, by the way, I do some work in this area, or like, I've haven't only fans or I have, you know, there was a period in my life or I'm still working, right. And so I think for me, one of the things that I kept thinking about was was, who are the people in my life, both personally and professionally, who need this? Right, who's who's whose experiences are not only summarized but brought to life? And so when you say, what is it that you didn't want to get wrong? Or what's the thing that I wanted to get right? I really was hoping for a way in which we as an authorship team did not other that it wasn't like those folks out there. Right? We have not only like people who work in the industry, but also like people who have bias and people who Are sex positive and people who internalize around a phobia? And like, it's not an ask them? Right? It's like a It's a both and yeah, yeah,
these are friends as you said loved ones like people in our lives. So there is not, again, this very Western European lens of like, oh, we are studying and we are talking about those subjects far from us. And a really, there's something really exciting about taking one's academic privilege or professional privilege, and using it. And, and also for me, like I loved doing the interviews, like that was just gorgeous. And the the consultants I, like, I just hugged those, the transcripts to my heart, it was just so great. I still read them from time to time, like it was, like, these are amazing people.
My memoir, reading qualitative researcher self was just enamored with the quotes used throughout your book, from your consultants. And I think that this that is another aspect of this book that really differentiates it from other types of clinical, you know, clinical guides, because we are hearing, you know, the narratives from the population of which this book is about, like, you know, it seems very common sense. But also we don't we, you know, it's not very common that you read a book like this, you know, a book geared toward, you know, clinical skills development and have access to so much rich, you know, just language, right? Stories, experiences, perspectives, and just the fact that you guys included that throughout your book, and really leaned on these folks to inform your work. I think, again, is another way that it just shows your dedication to that, you know,
I'm just starting couldn't do more like I really it's, I mean, there's so much that there just wasn't the space to put in. And so I, I get holding on to those transcripts of like, getting use it in some other ways, some because it was, yeah. And what I really appreciated too, from the consultants was a clarity of this is my experience. And this is not, again, I think American culture really will have a say, if we have any kind of expertise, then we are expert on the whole thing. I'm in some sort of monolithic fashion. And I was so struck by the just the self awareness of hey, this is my story. And it's one thread among many. But it is not the only story. And that was also really refreshing because a lot of books, I think, written by clinicians can be very much like, here's what it is.
Yeah. This is the experience of all sex org right now.
Like, no, this is my experience. This is what I've seen. And also, and also, yeah, all
right, yeah. And so since we have, you know, people listening in who are coming in at varying levels of knowledge, maybe a great place to start would be to, what is sex work? What is it not? And specifically, who are we talking about when we use this term sex worker?
I love this question. It's very robust. I mean, what I would say what it's not? Well, that's it, I think. There's so many different ways, I think, to kind of answer that. So. I mean, sex work really is like anybody who's exchanging erotic labor, sexual labor, for resources, right? Who, and consensually choosing to do that, again, as opposed to trafficking, which is a whole other topic and a whole other thing. And I think what people like there's, again, when we've seen television, television is usually or media is usually gonna say like, the person on the street. And there's usually class associations about that person. It's either that image or it's the kind of like high end score. Again, like Pretty Woman kind of visual and not really recognizing race, gender. Again, like all these different aspects of identity that anybody had can do sex work. Most people don't realize that somebody in their life that they know probably has done or will do that it is it is quite omnipresent. But the thing is, like also profoundly under supported that and stigmatized that many clinicians will never know or the clinicians who have done sex work are on I just feel very like, it's not safe to disclose that at all. Because it can impact how their clients think of them, how the professor's, what their practicum placements might be. And I've heard all of those happen. Yeah, I'll
just to add, I mean, I think one of the things we kind of touched on and says that in mental health, there's been a real myopic, distinct view, as Jamila was noting, not just in terms of kind of social and locational identities, but also the types of works. So I think we've often thought about sex work historically, and mental health justice, like folks who are working outside there, it's usually street base, right, it's usually fold service only. And although full service is a type of sex work, it's so much broader. And so thinking about organized groups. And when we think about any type of exchange of sexuality for resources, we can talk about technological advances, we can talk about group work, we can talk about intimacy or paid relationship experiences like sugar baby sugar, daddies, boyfriend, girlfriend experience, like any of those pieces. And so I think one of the ways that a lot of phobia impacts mental health is that because so many people are involved in these, but don't want to claim to be under this export umbrella, right, is that we don't think about some of these other types. And that when we do we begin to really go, Wow, this group of clients or group of loved ones is a lot larger than I initially thought. And it makes some of us and our little like, erotica, phobic selves, super uncomfortable, and thinking more about what are the ways that we brought in what sex work is to really reflect accurately the type of work being done? Yeah.
You know, I, oh, sorry, to me, like, come on.
I was gonna say that, I think because Americans can I am not in depth familiar with the sexuality culture of multiple places. So basically, like France in here. But most Americans have a really limited idea of what sex is like, it's usually right penis and vagina. And so that becomes, that's what sex is. And so sex work can only be that basically. And so I'm, I think, what a one things I really love about how Theo thinks, and how, I think is that because we have learned over time, and with our own inner development, to understand that sex can be so many things, and that sex work can be so many things. And it really, if I, what I would want is for clinicians, again, to do that inner work of what do I think sex is? What do we think pleasure is? What do I what's possible about my experiences and that of others, and I think that can eliminate some empathy, and some curiosity again, about then what sex work can be what it should be in terms of just like, we want sexual experiences, consensual sexual experiences to be pleasurable and respectful and fun and creative. Can we not apply that same kind of thinking to sex? And I think those things are very much bound, what we think of sex and what we think of sex work.
You know, as you two are speaking, I'm kind of flashing back to times, especially in class or at conferences, when folks really struggle with understanding, I think the differentiation between sex work and trafficking. And if we understand consent and exploitation as a spectrum, I mean, that that does shine light on sometimes the delicate nuance here, right, that exists between these two distinct populations, these two distinct groups. And I'm wondering if you, you know, if you both could say a little bit more, which might be helpful for our listeners, in terms of understanding the phrase like conditions of exploitation does not necessarily indicate non consent, right? We we work in conditions of exploitation all of the time under a system of capitalism. And yet, how do we tease that out? When we think about sex work and trafficking? What is the you know, where's the line exist?
Do you want to start No? Sure. Yeah.
So I think the first thing is to really honor the continuum, right. And that in a in a world that loves the binary, this is not this is where sex trafficking and sex work begins, and that it's complicated by all sorts of different pieces like migration, like acculturation, right, like xenophobia, right? And so especially within the US, there is such a narrative and shared history around individuals who use sex work as a migration tool to escape really rigid immigration law. And so I think when we think about trafficking and sex work, it's really interesting to hear those conversations that are completely void of culture. And to say, hey, you know what, actually, it's not that simple. So I think for me, one of the things that I'm often thinking about is when individuals, especially clients are engaged in consent based work, right, that consent, as you said, and exploitation and are very different. And so being able, I think, to get curious with clients about that relationship, and what that relationship is for that client. And sometimes it's as simple as, hey, if you talk a little bit about your work, I'm noticing that it's part of your narrative around coming to the US, can we have that conversation? And some clients will be like, no, and then that's fine, right? Like, that's where their limit is. And I'm a big fan of respecting client boundaries and not labeling that right. But then I think the other piece is then showing in so many ways that you can hold the nuance of that relationship.
Again, like profoundly getting curious about, tell me about your life, tell me about your choices. Tell me about what, what led to this truly getting curious to understand our clients stories. It, it just cannot be overstated. And again, I as a neurodivergent. person, I also think about neurodiversity. A lot of so many of my friends who do sex work, and my clients talk about this world, this economy is not set up for the neurodivergent it is able is rigid. And so again, depending on what one's needs are, who they need to take care of in their life, the ability to, I need to be able to truly choose my own hours, and be able to make up for the hour that I'm working, how much money can I make so that I can do the other things in my life. And so it really becomes, is the the counselor, the therapist getting curious about the ecology of somebody's life? Again, their their status as a citizen or being undocumented? They're like, what is their either mental health or, again, their neurodivergent? What is their family of origin, just assuming, just fundamentally assuming that people are doing their best to live? And there's a huge difference again, when. And this is why when I do trainings on BDSM, we're also will make that distinction between like, what is BDSM? And what is abuse, and getting really clear. And so I think there's kind of a similarity of when somebody is being profoundly exploited, there are going to be tells that are very different than the frustrations or the stressors of, again, like a job. Again, teaching our early career clinicians the difference between when you're seeing somebody who has profoundly limited external pressures around their choices, versus I gotta eat, and I have to take care of like my folks, and here's how I do that efficiently and effectively, huge difference somatically we'll be able to feel a difference. And how we then support our clients will be an excuse me, needs to be radically different.
These are such an important insights and I appreciate you both for really enriching this con that the contextual part here the curiosity, the curiosity about autonomy and self determination, you know, self determination and curiosity about life, narrative, cultural identities, Power Privilege. And it seems like there's two culprits here that really prevent that from happening, that curiosity, which is either a preconceived bias when there's known or unknown to you and just misinformation. Right. And that's the, you know, the the kind of double edged Yeah, this sort of this all where you may not even know that you are perpetuating perpetuating these stereotypes and misconceptions, because that is they've been internalized as fact or truth to you. And it does, it exposes a lot about the barriers of counselor training programs, therapy, training programs, and also, you know, an extension of just systemic and social bias that that we have. And I, you know, I'm wondering if, if you both could talk a little bit more about what are some of the ways that healthcare as a system needs to evolve in order to better serve sex workers,
I just see you both.
For the listeners that are listening, I just had to take a deep Big old brass. Wow.
Where do we begin?
Well, you know, it's funny because you were speaking about that double edged sword. And I just want to say really quickly that for me what what connects both edges is that medical model? Right? And so I just want to name that too, which is I think, where a lot of folks don't get it right is this idea around? Not only do I not have curiosity, but also I need to use the model that I've been trained in to do the work I want to do. Yeah, Mm
hmm. And that there is, you know, Western medicine, there's amazing, amazing benefits to it. And one of its fundamental assumptions is it is looking for a problem. It is looking for illness. And when psychology adopts that medical model of looking for illness, we're gonna find it as an industry. And, you know, when I lecture I talked about Freud and I have some very specific opinions. I also talked to Freud in my head, I'm like, dude, like this, I feel like there's stuff going on for you. And that there is a context that I really like him in Jung, we get into it. But that there's a context again, like he's the, really again, how humans were being conceptualized in Vienna in a very particular time, again, was looking for abnormality looking for deviance. And that thread has absolutely found its way into monitor psychology as practice now. And what I am hoping and isn't what the what we really focused on in the book is, we can use the best of the medical model and Western thinking, to be curious to link. You know, we talk a lot about interpersonal neurobiology. But we can use the best of that to support our clients. But we have got to jettison again that there was a fundamental brokenness, there's a fundamental illness, there is a fundamental deviance or abnormality that has to die. And I will not mince words about that.
And thank you for not, thank you for not mincing words about that. We have to have a clear objective here. You know, you can't you can't dismantle something that you can't see the right you don't you haven't defined? Yeah. Or
nervous to name it? Absolutely. So happens.
Absolutely. And, you know, I was excited for today to really have the opportunity to tap into both of your wisdoms about really what, what it looks like to be in session as a sex worker, affirming, clinician, counselor therapist, you know, for our listeners tuning in, who may not have any experience, you know, in the room, you know, what are some tips or strategies that you might suggest in terms of, you know, taking what we've everything that we've just discussed, and actually putting it into a counseling space.
I love that. I would say one thing to really the the more societally under supported somebody is, the more the more that their life is going to be, or seem kind of out of control or very, that it will shift rapidly. And so I would want clinicians to have patience, have patience, be flexible. There was one clients who did such work that coming in every week, you know, after a while, like it was just not working. And you know, sometimes she would show up, and sometimes she wouldn't. And I remember a sense of like, frustration of why isn't she showing up, and I was like, Oh, she's not showing up because a lot is happening in any given day or week of her life. That's why and, but when I looked at the arch, like more often than not, she would contact me more often than not, she would show up if she could, or reach out. And to me, like, that's the thing if our clients are reaching in any way, or are potentially thinking of reaching out, that's what you're looking for the signal of showing up every single week at the same time, like looking a certain way like that needs to go out the window. I will see my clients when they're in bed, if they've got a bottle on their head if they're, like, again, just lying down in the bath. I don't care as long as they're showing up relatively consistently. And with that client, um, I did I when I noticed that pattern, I just said hey, if every week is not working for you, that is more than okay, what would you want to switch to something where you can Call me when you need me. And then like, I will make time in that week for you. And as soon as I did that much more regular like it. Again, this idea of that people who are have so few social supports, typically and again have to be like keeping their eyes open from one hour to the next, something can change radically in their life, especially when policy changes happen, especially when the online system you're using for payment decides that day, that moment of oh, no more, no more. And now you the money that you have there is gone. And so, again, I would want clinicians to you cannot be too transparent. You can, you can certainly not be too curious. Those are like, Hey, I'm concerned about this, or I'm curious about this, or I noticing this, how does that sit with you? What's that? Like? Do we need to make a change? Let me know how best to support you. And that, are we also really honest, that doesn't guarantee shit. Like, again, is population that we represent authority, we represent systemic oppression. For a lot of them, we represent the danger to them, their children, their livelihoods. And so they may never completely trust us. And I think that is wise. So again, our job is to stay steady to understand ourselves, and to keep reaching and to be flexible.
Thank you to me. Yeah.
Yeah, I'll just add, I mean, that cultural mistrust. You know, as we've been talking about all these, like, really difficult systems, and a lot of this misinformation that cultural myths trust is it's, it's a resilient strategy, it's a coping mechanism. And so for us to problematize it, or to like, push against people's boundaries to like, let us in which they think so many theories of counseling will talk about, right that like our job is to get people to be completely open and transparent. Which if I have a lot of resources sounds super great, right? And if I don't like what is that, like, especially when that person represents a member of an institution, so I think what I would often recommend is recognizing that sometimes boundaries are resilient, even with Office therapists, and so recognizing that, and then it's genuine named, I think that with a lot of my clients who are in the industry, I'm much more process oriented. So especially like, let's say, in an intake session, I'm much more open to say like, Hey, there's gonna be multiple parts to our time together. Today, I'm gonna go through some policies, I want to ask a bunch of questions. You never have to ask answer anything. If you want to know why I'm asking you certain questions, I want you to say, Why are you asking me that? And then if you don't want to answer anything, be like, I don't want to answer that. And just in the way that we communicate, our relationship to the counseling process, I think begins to alleviate different parts. And I think the other thing that I would say is that we write about this a little bit in the book is this mythical concept for some individuals in the industry of safety, right? That some people are safe, and some people are safe enough. And that if you have experienced lots of violence and internalize that nothing feels safe. And so when we, you know, write in our treatment plans help, you know, increase safety, it's like, um, that's really interesting for you to write and really like, where's that mythical safety land? Because I want to go, you know? So just really being able to name what is safe enough and cook creating that asking individuals, if safety was a goal, what would safe enough or more safe than now look like?
more safe than now? Absolutely. Yeah. And also, it's, I mean, I follow a, both of us really encourage people to go to, you know, one of my professors in school, go to the primary resource, like go to the primary resource. And so there's all these brilliant, brilliant thinkers and activists, and just regular, thoughtful sex workers who are online. You know, they're on Twitter, they're on Instagram, of course, with Twitter being what it is, like, people are going to different places. But go follow people go like there's multiple podcasts and like, there's so much not as much as I think needs to be but there's so much more media, by sex workers. And so go, Listen, go follow, go learn. And don't say anything, just be there and learn. And I think like that can be profoundly helpful. Because what I have been seeing is, again, so many people, they do want, nobody wants to be miserable. And so there's more and more suck. workers who are they're looking for a good therapist? And your original question Megan, of kind of what was one of the hopes that we had with this book was that like, somebody who has done sex work, or is currently doing sex work, or might go into doing sex work, read some part of the book. I'm always impressed when anybody read the whole thing. But I'm also like, it's okay to like, dip in and dip out, I'm in the middle of like, 15 books, it's a thing. But that's somebody who would read parts of this book, and then be able to say, Oh, this is the standard of care if not even better, than like, this is what I should have. And I am going to take this book, and I'm gonna go talk to a therapist or ask if they've read that, like, it's, what I'm hoping is it becomes kind of a standard or a talisman almost of like, it can be like this or even better. I really want it
not only demystifying the process, but also empowering, empowering readers to ask for what you know, to recognize what they should be receiving. Right? What they deserve. Yeah, yeah, you know that you are already talking so much about this issue. But I wanted to ask, you know, you acknowledging that there is no one universal sex worker experience, of course, I'm going to ask a question that, of course, kind of attempts to generalize something here. But, you know, if you could think of a list of priorities, in terms of advocate like advocacy, with and on behalf of our sex worker clients, what are some things that we can do in the room and outside of the room that actually helps create systemic change for members of this population? Do you have four hours?
Which is half of the training?
No, totally. Exactly. Right. I want to name that this is a question I get asked a lot. And so I want to own that. What I want is bold and bright and beautiful. And I'm excited about it. And so what I want is for mental health, as a as a discipline, right, which is actually, you know, feuds of like, so many different sub disciplines, but I want mental health to own its proper place and the decriminalization movement, right? I don't want us to say, hey, you know, what law and ethnic studies and Gender Studies created this movement, and we were on the back end, I'm like, No,
where are you at ACA APA says, Where are you? Right?
That's right. And then T National Association for social workers, like drag it out, like, you name it, right? I'm like, where are you at? Yeah, right. And so that's calling all of the people who are listening who are a part of those organizations, and say, Look, New Zealand is onto something like it is. It is time, right?
Can you can you describe that? DK I'm, I'm so sorry for the interruption, but the decriminalization, this is so important. And I think maybe a lot, a lot of our listeners may not fully understand what that means. I
would love to do that briefly. Yeah. So in 2003, New Zealand began the decriminalization movement, where they separated the ideas of legalization and decriminalization. So legalization, which happens in 10 counties in the state of Nevada, as well as a variety of other places, forces individuals in the industry to subscribe to forest health checks requires them to register with the state. Right. And so there's this myth that legalization is like the best option because sex people can do sex work. And it's actually not right, like legalization is a trap. Right? And it's a trap. Because what it does, it's for individuals who can't let say, register with the state because of migration or documentation or financial purposes. Well, those continue
to be illegal, right? That can be illegal for the most vulnerable members of the population. That's
right. Yeah. Yeah. So um, yeah. And so in 2003, New Zealand started a process by which individuals who were part of the sex industry formed unions, right, that there were abilities for if there was violence that was perpetrated against those workers, the perpetrators of those violence were accountable to the state, instead of to law enforcement, which was a huge shift. And then also just thinking about the idea that decriminalization in no way increased the number of sex workers that were in New Zealand but it dramatically decrease the amount of violence that happened for people in that industry. So the data were very clear. Yeah. I'm sorry, Jamil, I went on a rant.
I'm like, I want people to know this. And again, the difference because, again, when I'm following different sex workers online, who were, again being very clear decriminalization, decriminalization, like they know what is in their own best interest. Most humans know what is in their own best interest. And so, so many sex workers are saying, and organizations are saying, We want decriminalization, and usually somewhere in the comments, because sometimes it's okay to read the comments. Often it's not. But there will be people like, but what about legalization? And, and it's very clear, right? It's been if you're, again, reading and listening to the people who are affected, they will tell you, we want decriminalization, and this is why it is the legalization does not help us. It does, it actually puts more barriers in our way. It doesn't necessarily make us any safer, and can put other pressures on us. It does not work, we're telling you what works. And so again, what I would want, really any clinician who, you know, when we, when we signed up for this profession, all of us have our code of ethics in it. And it's one to do no harm, and to to be advocates, and to figure out what your lane is going to be. And for some, it's it's going to be around sexuality and around supporting sex workers find that lane and get you a Mazzanti and go. Like, but again, amplifying people bringing up conversations, asking questions in school, asking questions in one's practicum, creating your own kind of training or leading a talk, even at your training site. I mean, there's so many different kinds of possibilities, but to not stay silent. And again, like that's why theater like we are out here, here's where you can find us. Because I have so many clinicians who are interested in sexuality and wanting to support sex workers, or who have both of those identities. And they feel very alone and justifiably nervous or apprehensive about being sticking their neck out. And so it's critical that enough of us, like little Dandy Lions are just like, I'm here, I'm here, and I'm here. find each other.
You know, you mentioned pineapple support earlier. And I just wanted to again, kind of lift that up in our talk today and for listeners in terms of accessing more resources. Learning more so in addition to your book, pineapple support is such a great website just to visit, especially for folks who are again, looking to really grow their skill set, really grow their cultural competence and understand better understand the needs of sex workers. And I always also plug sex worker outreach projects across the country. Such a great way to get involved, you can join a listserv, and you can just be privy to the conversations that these organizations are having. If you're located near a metropolitan area, then you can usually access meetings, you can attend meetings, you can join, you know, volunteer projects, there are tangible accessible ways to get involved digitally and online or in person. And I think so many folks especially, you know, just just put the toe in the water are, you know, almost like immobilized by that feeling of like, I want to, I want to help but I don't know where to get started. And you all have just named so many amazing ways to just inch in or dive in, and Mazel Rottie in.
And out. Car, there's lead car. So just like I mentioned, bipoc collective which joint project with jetsetting, Jasmine, and finally run by cinnamon love. And this is specifically for bipoc. Folks, they offer micro crayons, and like that, like what they do is is absolutely phenomenal. Because again, part of what we talked about in the book is the hierarchy of, again, what kinds of work and then when you start again talking about race, and skin color and texture of hair, then a whole bunch of other things come up. So the experiences of a white sis woman who like has a college degree and who does sex work is gonna be very different than even somebody with only one a different one different factor from that. And so it's like I'm always like, hey, it's so important to recognize this is a racist country, and we really you can't under, under estimate how that impacts everything who gets hired? How for, for what kinds of things for not other kinds of things? So I'd want clinicians to be asking about those kinds of identity, and interrogating gently their own identities as well. Yes,
yes. I also, I think all of the organizations that that we have spoken about today, we are going to link into the notes of today's episode. And so as you're listening, and you maybe you didn't quite hear one thing. If you're not, we will have links to everything. So you can kind of choose your own adventure after listening to this episode. But we are wrapping up now, that hour went by extremely fast. Thanks to you both. And I, you know, I wanted to maybe wrap us up today with a question for, for all of our listeners out there, maybe what is one or two pieces of advice that you can give, for people to make actionable change today in their practice in the way that they work? With sex workers? What is one thing
take a minute to learn where you learned or take a minute to reflect on where you learned certain things that you know and believe that as you do this work, more and more of your beliefs become a focal point, and that that liberation of your belief from a larger system can be invaluable.
Yeah, I can ever do just one thing. I'm like, nope, multiple flavors, multiple things. But I would say to Agra, Theo that, again, that sexuality and sex work and what we believe about, both are intertwined. And again, what we believe about humanity, about autonomy, about pleasure, about what we do in to make a living in the privacy of our own lives. And so again, I would want to, I would want people to, again, get curious about the stories you've been told about your own body about your own experience. This is one area where the relationship you have with your body with pleasure with sex, absolutely informs how you show up with the client. And that doesn't mean you have to be you know, out here 24/7 Like, you know, swinging or anything, although if that supports you great, but it does mean getting fluent with sexuality, getting fluent with eroticism, and committing to a really lovely, that can be a lifelong journey, and it's really rad. I mean, you and I talk of like, who we were 10 years ago, and who we are now it's a lot more fun. Because of the work that we've done,
I was in for the third installment of this series, we're gonna focus on like pleasure as a birthright and
your therapist pleasure pursuit, like yes,
here for it. Yes. Love it. Yeah.
I appreciate you both so much for being here today. Not only was this just an amazing opportunity to pick your brain and get to learn more about you and the work that you do, but also, hopefully, can serve as a beacon to our listeners, to our listeners who are sex workers who are queer, who are trans and non binary and can hear again, what these two folks are telling you that you deserve. A high level of care, you deserve a level of care that affirms who you are, and every one of your identities, you deserve a level of care, that understands the
richness and the strengths and the resiliency that you and your unique, unique identities bring to this discussion, and we can't settle for less. I can't say it again. We can't do it on our own, I think thank you both for being on the show today.
Thanks again for having us. And thanks for creating the space in the world Megan, so grateful.
Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept, Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some The other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu. Forward slash concept. As always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe
