From MCIE. Inclusionists. Here is some advice. Listen to more podcasts by disabled podcasters. And I've got two I want to introduce to you right now. My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you were listening to think inclusive, a show where with every conversation, we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability rights advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do at MCIE.org. For this episode, I speak with Cheryl green and Thomas Reid, both fantastic podcasters Cheryl Green has worked as an access artist making creative and immersive captions for 10 years. In audio description for five years, she brings her lived experience of chronic illness and invisible disabilities. To her access work with independent content creators and awesome disability focused organizations including Superfest international disability Film Festival, Disability Visibility Project and kinetic light. She has made several documentary films and produces and transcribes her podcast pigeonhole. Shortly after becoming blind in 2004, Thomas Reid decided to reignite a dormant interest in audio production. After years of combining his interest in audio with advocacy. He was selected as an association of independence and radio new voice scholar in 2014. During that same time, he began to produce his podcast, Reid My Mind radio, featuring compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability. Occasionally, he shares stories from his own experience as a man adjusting to becoming blind as an adult. Thank you so much for listening. And now, my interview with Cheryl green, and Thomas Reid. I don't know who wants to go first Cheryl Thomas, but, Cheryl? Tell our audience, tell our audience about your podcast. What is it about? And why is it important for you to produce it?
My mic was muted. Otherwise, I was gonna say Thomas is gonna say I want to go first. Beat you do a podcast is that's what I get for muting my mic. My podcast is called pigeonhole. And I started as doing a streaming radio interview show many years ago, you know, unedited, just automatically uploaded. Just talk. And now pigeonhole is much more focused and it's edited, pigeonhole is kind of came from the idea of the way, I feel like a lot of people in disability community are pigeon holed and put into a slot by mainstream non disabled community and told who we are and what roles we should serve. And so it's kind of a commentary on that. I've got some interviews on there. Mostly, those are like re edits, and refining of earlier episodes, but it's a lot of storytelling, and not so much straight interview. I try to keep the episodes super, super short. And sometimes it's amusing on something that I'm going through and experiencing and want to chat about or make jokes about. But it's primarily storytelling. I don't have non disabled guests on the show.
All right, Thomas, you're up.
I'm up. So yeah, my podcast, Reid my mind radio. It actually started in a way. With my blog, I had a blog that was called read my mind period dot com. And I started I was doing a lot of audio work with a advocacy organization. And yeah, and so at one point, I was introduced to someone who let me know that there were opportunities to create new pieces of audio for a an existing radio reading service. So if you don't know a radio reading service is specifically for those who are blind, and print, print disabled. And usually what they do they have readers who read like newspapers and things like that magazines, and it's a sent on a radio signal. So you have to have this specialized radio. And so what they wanted to do was to make really, you know, new new pieces, new sort of stories, and this was gateway radio in New York City. And I started making the pieces for them. And I was like, hey, you know, no one can hear this no one that I know, at least because no one I know was, you know, using this service. So I decided to just place that on my blog at the time and called it Reid My Mind Radio, says it was audio sounded better than read my mind, audio. And at first, I wasn't really interested in creating a podcast. But then as I continued to make these stories, I was like, You know what, let me make this into a podcast. And so that's how the podcast started. And really, the podcast is, you know, it's what I like to say is I feature compelling people impacted by all degrees of blindness and disability. And occasionally, I share some of my own experiences as a man adjusting to becoming blind as an adult. And, you know, I've branched out and I kind of focus on certain topics. Now, I'm like, a seasonal sort of approach. And I'll have a theme. But I'm kind of known now for doing a lot of a lot on audio description. That's one of the things that I kind of try to cover a, you know, a fair amount of the topic of audio description.
Can I jump in here? I just want to say that when I started, I did not want to do any personal stories, it was all interviews. And it was actually I believe you heard of the podcaster. Thomas Reid, it was Thomas, you were the one who inspired me to do some personal stories on there. Because on your own show, you started occasionally doing some personal stories. And you would say things like, this is before. These are, these are episodes that came out from before I met you. But you would say like, you know, I don't usually talk about myself, but I wanted to share this story. And I found them as compelling as the ones where you interviewed somebody else. And that made me think, oh, gosh, maybe I could do that, too. And then, when I've been felt too embarrassed to do it, I'll tell you, and you were like, no, that sounds interesting. You should, you should put that story out there. So I want to thank you for that. Because I don't know if you know how much of an impact that had on me. You just kind of being a model for me in how to have a show that is primarily interviewing and gathering stories from other people. But then sometimes doing a whole episode. That's only you. And then also, you always find really interesting and unique ways to relate your personal story to your guests when it makes sense, right? You don't take over people's people's stories. But when you have something that you can genuinely share with them something in common. You bring your story into it without taking over their story. It's just great. I just I can't I can't say enough great stuff about your podcast.
Oh, thank you so much. I never knew that. Wow, that's really cool that that influenced you. That's that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, you should start some kind of project where you mentor podcasters
I'm raising my hand. I'll be your first I'll be your first mentee. I appreciate that.
Um, so I'm just so pleased to talk about podcast number one, but also storytelling podcast. Because there's, I think I read 5 million podcasts right now. I think that number goes up and down, you know, as depending on what news organization reports it, but I don't think it's it's not 5 million storytelling podcasts, that's for sure. It's mostly, you know, chat shows, and YouTube shows that ended up being called the podcast. I I think it's just my personal bias against video that i i almost refuse to call a YouTube show a podcast, but but, you know, it's certainly legitimate. But with storytelling, it can be really vulnerable to talk about yourself, like you said. So when you were creating your podcast is there a particular story about yourself that you are trying to communicate?
Who's going first?
Well, you said first
that there's my answer. Yes. But ya know, I really liked that question because I think when I was creating mine, I specifically had without even knowing, but I think I did always have a target audience in mind. And that was those adjusting to becoming blind. And that was, that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. But yeah, that was my story. So I really wanted to sort of like, reach out and share some of the experiences that I had with meeting other people who have gone that route, who became blind, other people who became blind, whether they were blind as an adult with a blind as a child, whatever, but a lot of, of what helped me was people and I talked about that all the time, the power of people. And so that ability to bring that and share those experiences with people who may not have access to that, because that's a lot of people don't necessarily have access to what I had. Right. And that was specifically because I became involved in in advocacy, and met just a great bunch of people from from so many different places, who's who had so many different experiences that they were willing to share with me. And, and so I wanted to bring that to to others. And so I guess, the story that I think my podcasts would be saying about me, I'm kind of changing that a little bit that Tim, I think, is, is really that adjustment story. And it's really sort of my adjustment. So since starting the podcast, my, the way I view disability, the way I view blindness, even in terms of me, just including disability, I didn't say that in the beginning, I probably didn't even say blind. In the beginning, I said vision loss, because a lot of people responded to vision loss before they would respond to blind, a lot of folks are scared of that word. And I didn't want to necessarily shut them down. By the time I started the podcast, I was not scared of that word, I accepted that I was fine with blind, but reaching out to them. And so that changed, that changed, where I'm like, No, I'm going to use the word blind, because I think folks need to, to kind of get there. And then I started reaching out past blindness and looking at other disability. Because I didn't want to sort of just think about blindness, and just, you know, I see the I see the importance of and just the relationship between other disabilities, right, the relationship and the experience, the things we share. But, you know, if you wish to track, which I don't suggest, but if you were to go back and kind of like listen to the episodes, I think it really does tie closely to my own adjustment. And the things that were becoming more important to me, the things that I started to understand the people that I were meeting was meeting, and just being exposed to and just, you know, thinking really differently about disability. And we're in the beginning, my idea was probably it was probably around this idea of like, Oh, everybody needs to stop thinking about disability in this way the world needs to see us like this where people to gather data about it. Now I don't really care about what they think I'm really just talking to, in a way. I mean, not as much as Cheryl because shows like I only talk to people with disability. I love that. Now I have other guests sometimes I do have not that often. But I would have guests who are not necessarily disabled, but I'm talking to it's censoring people with disabilities. And that's, that's where I'm comfortable. I like that. That's important to me. And so, the podcast I think follows that. That sort of journey to use that word. Sorry. But it's okay.
I didn't know jurnee was a suspect word
is apparently used. Yeah. I mean, I know I overused it so.
So yeah.
That I enjoyed listening to that. I think the story that I wanted to tell is, first of all, I really think that disability stories are best when they are made by and come from disability community. When their stories of like disability culture or disability are or like Thomas talks a lot about that personal experience of adjusting to a disability say, I think that kind of stuff is better made when the producer or journalist or whoever it is, is a disabled person. And I'm not saying that I do it the best Yes, but I'm saying that when I have heard disability stories told by non disabled mainstream shows, including my own, when I was a guest on a mainstream non disabled show, it didn't go well. It doesn't sound good. It you get a lot of often you get the host or the producer being very welcoming of the guest, but then slipping in all sorts of micro aggressions and passive aggressive disbelief of the guest who that they they invited on their show. A lot of it is subtle. And I've talked to people, non disabled people who don't recognize it, don't hear it don't don't hear what was troubling about it. Anyway, it's not different from any other community in that, when you have someone who is inside the community, collecting and shaping and producing the story. It can have, it can have a lot of subtlety and sweetness to it that you just don't get from the disbelieving outsider, parachute journalist kind of thing. So that was one thing I wanted to tell. One story I wanted to tell was, could I please have a little bit of space to share some of these stories? And then in terms of my owns? Well, I forgot what I was saying. Oh, you got a lot. To share about my own story. Well, I guess in terms of my own story, one thing I want to share is another guy ever hide that I have disability experiences and have had other disability experiences that I don't have anymore. That that's always at the forefront. I don't hide that. So I got lost again. But my, but my narrative doesn't have to be shaped around the medical stuff. And that's what people, many people seem to want most from me and other people in the brain injury community is, how did it happen? When did it happen? What were your impairments? What was rehab like, and I am so not needed in that arena. There's enough people who already do that, and who like to tell those stories, that I go so far in the other direction, and outright refuse to tell those stories. Most of the time. Now, I have shared people on my podcast when they share those stories, because that's meaningful and useful to them. And, you know, sometimes I'll edit some of it out, because I don't want to put that out there. But not always. But in terms of my own story, like if you want to hear me shut down, that's the quickest way to shut me down. How did it happen? I'll be next. And so I wanted to put out a show that was unabashedly focused on disability, but you don't get to hear a list of diagnoses and impairments in the name of my rehab clinicians and blah, blah, blah, and no, you will not hear how it happened. The end. So that is what I wanted to share about my story.
You know, let me just say that, I think Cheryl, you helped me, like really articulate that years ago, when when you and I met. It was something that I don't think I ever really got that deep into diagnosis. But I didn't notice that. Especially when you're talking about blindness, when you talk about blindness, who that folks are ready to tell you. Everything about, you know how they lost their sight. If they lost the sight as an adult that that would be the case. I don't find that with folks who are congenitally blind. But it was something that I was always kind of like, I don't know, like, it didn't feel right to me, but I didn't know how to articulate that. And then when you and I started talking, it was like, yeah, that that's what I'm talking about. Like it was it was that it was that feeling. And yeah, Cuz usually when I would invite folks on the podcast, it's like, okay, I want to know, because, you know, people people want to know, right, and usually I know they want to share it. And the reason I do that is because if if someone can relate to usually it's going to be that diagnosis, right? One of those things, obviously, you know, another blind person is going to relate to an experience that some other blind person had, but once they hear that, oh, I had RP Oh, I had whatever Lal, whatever the heck it le shine, you know, they boom, they really get drawn to it. But I don't want to go into like you said, you know, I don't want to hear that you had 15 surgeries and you had this and that and all that like this. I don't know I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not a doctor, you know, and I don't even live in Maryland. So this M D is not on the end of my Yes. And so yeah. So yeah, so it's like, you know, why should I get into that into that conversation? But Cheryl definitely helped me articulate that get get better. And just even the way I thought about this, so yeah, shout out to you, Cheryl.
Hey, that's so cool. And I just want to say, our friend and colleague Nefertiti Montes Olivarez. Was has a role on America's Test Kitchen mystery recipe. It's a kid's cooking and food science show, which I'll admit I didn't listen to before. But now that she's on it, I'm listening. It's great. I learned so many facts about water. You really, it? It is for kids, but there's a lot of learning to be had. Anyway, um, she's a new character on the show and her character like she is blind. And so there was a lot. I was, I listened to it yesterday, the episode came out yesterday, I literally was crying listening to it. Because when she's introduced, they just like, they. They don't objectify her at all. And she comes in and the characters are, give her a visual description, a verbal description of the room and offer you know, would you like to take my arm? I'll show you where your microphone is. I mean, the recording remotely, but the characters, but they just like had verbal description and self description. They had accessibility baked into the script, without objectifying or going into medical stuff and diagnosis from the beginning and I just started crying. It was so beautiful. And then, of course, because it's a mainstream non disabled focus podcast, they go into the medical stuff. And Maggie Eggy, she's an egg timer. Meggie eggy actually gives the diagnosis and discusses some of the, you know, her experiences around vision and, and I was like, ah, war wants that, you know, sad trombones all over the place. But then Nefertiti just, it was incredible. Because at one point, the oven mitt, I forget her name, maybe it's Mitzi or something they haven't met, starts, like, oh, my gosh, I gotta write this down. And Maggie egg, he's like, You don't have to write this down. And listeners, you don't have to take notes, either. You don't have to worry about remembering the medical stuff. You just need to know what my experience is, and how I get around in the kitchen. And I start crying again. And Nefertiti did weigh in and make major Well, I don't know, major, but she did weigh in on the script, I think they wrote it. And she came in and said, with my personal experience of blindness, and of being somebody who does a lot of cooking. Let me tell you how this egg timer would really talk about these things. And let me tell you what is a good way to represent to represent this story in this character in the show. And I just can't imagine what the script was like before because you know, they still did have Maggie Eggy, get all medical and stuff. But she came right back to accessibility and to her access needs and what she can do and what kinds of assistance would be useful for her. And just being in that world together, and not having to objectify the egg timer. It was phenomenal. I don't think they have transcript. So sad trombones
or sad trombone.
Yeah. But I think I think Nefertiti just did such a beautiful job with, with her voice acting, and bringing that character to life. But I so appreciate the can the control that she took over it and that they let her have because usually those non disabled LED shows do not let you tell your disability story, in your words, and from your perspective, and they make you I mean, when I was on a major podcast, I got into a fight with the guy. I am not going to tell you how I got my brain injury. And he starts wagging at me and lecturing me and mansplaining me about how his audience needs this and that and like, I know what you think your audience needs. That is why I'm not telling this story. Anyway, they cut most of it out except the part where I sound really angry. So you hear me randomly like raising my voice, even though you don't hear what instigated it. And then they brought on a fact checker, they brought on a non disabled guy who trains people to work with people with disabilities to verify what I had said about my own experience.
In the show, like as a part of the episode,
they brought on this other guy who basically confirmed everything I said was true. I'm like, oh, because it's literally my story. Right? A non disabled person.
Oh my goodness. Yeah,
so that's my pitch in home. But, I mean, hopefully you will edit. Most of that
will edit. Yeah, we'll edit it. Or maybe maybe I'll just, you know, maybe I'll just leave No, and leave it in. Let me see, if I can, let me just reflect on what you're saying. I think that I don't think I've heard this perspective before. Like, so put so succinctly about like disability stories, the perspectives from a disabled person, and honoring, and not assuming that a person even wants to tell, you know, the how it happened story, right. And so I'm thinking, I'm just kind of reflecting for, you know, people who are even diagnosed late with, you know, with autism spectrum disorder, right. You know, or, I mean, a lot of times, I just had somebody on my show that wanted to tell that story, right. But, um, so of course, I let them but also not to assume that, you know, a person even even wants to explain that, in letting them and that's and that's totally fine. And okay, you know, you tell your story, how you want to tell your story.
That's how it's, and you train the you train audiences to broaden their expectations. Everybody's like, oh, autism spectrum. How old? Were you new guy diagnosed? And did you talk? You know, people have these set expectations? Oh, blind, can you see anything? Do you have a dog like, people have whatever expectations they already have based on their life experience. And we keep giving them the same thing over and over and over, we keep giving them the same thing, go find just just Google Brain Injury documentary, and just click the first thing you see. And tell me how long it takes before you either get the the injury date. Or you see hospital footage, or you see pictures of a car wreck? Like how long is it going to take before that will show up in a movie? Not long. And so I think one of our roles, you know, me and Thomas and other content creators is to offer this gift to all audiences to broaden their expectations, which will then help them broaden their knowledge base about things. Even if they already knew a lot about this topic, but hadn't thought about it from this way, like, No, I, you're, you're going to have to trust me, and listen to the story without knowing my diagnosis. But just trust the things that I say. Or in the case of your guest, it was important to that person to share that diagnosis story. Great, by all means, then, if that serves you to tell that story great. And whatever story it doesn't serve you to tell you should not be a side show character who's got to tell this story to entertain the audiences, just because audiences have come to expect that story.
And there's so many different types of stories that folks are used to hearing when it comes around disability. And it's, I shouldn't say so many, because there's probably not that many. But you know, that, Oh, they overcame their disability. That's the one that the media and folks seem to really love. Right? Because it's, it's, it makes people happy. And it becomes it's not about that individual is about that person watching. That's what that ends, you know, it makes you feel better about whether it be yourself or you're not really dealing with what this person's experience is. It's just that they overcame the disability. And when people tell me that, oh, you overcame your bias, I'm like, Nah, man, I wake up every day. I'm blind. So I didn't overcome anything. I do it with my blindness. And yeah, just taking ownership of your stories is so important. So important.
So I listen to the latest, your latest episode, Cheryl.
And I don't remember what that was
it well, I don't I'm not going to remember the name of the guest or that or that
you set a specific Carmen, Carmen.
Yes, Carmen. And okay, so I'm, I'm literally while he, he was doing that immersive experience. I was like, rubbing my eyes. Hey, you didn't tell you or you didn't tell the audience do that. But I guarantee you people are doing that. But I guess that's not the one I was gonna say what I was gonna say was how you celebrated the experience both you and Carmen. Right? You shared a story, you know, your story of an experience. I think you call that. You said at the very beginning of the episode, you said visual design this disruptions, I think,
oh disturbances that was
visual and you're like, forget about that. And then but like the rest of the episode, you're celebrating these wonderful things that you're both seeing, you know, and it was, it was so just refreshing and wonderful and made me like jealous that I wasn't I, I'm not experiencing that. Although, when you do, like, rub your eyes, you do see things, right. And I was like, of course, of course. So it was just so wonderful. And I'm really, really pleased that I got a chance to listen to that. And then Thomas, I was scrolling through your feed. And I caught a, this was a this was a while ago. It's I think a 2015 episode, I went all the way down my floor. And there was a three minute and
if I want you to go on back that for
this one was good. I want your perspective if you if you remember this one, but it's like a three minute episode. And you're telling a story of going to eat with your sister. And a little girl gave you a quarter because you're blind. Oh my gosh,
yeah. I remember that one. I remember the experience. Yeah, that was, um, yeah, that was something that was some that was a that was a part of the many things that happened. And as a part of that, that way about looking at blindness, you know, that perception thing. And, you know, it was nothing for the little girl it was it was really that the mother, who seemed to, from our perspective seems to kind of force that on the little girl. And it seemed to be a lesson again. It wasn't about me at all. It wasn't about me. For the record, I you know, I was looking good. I had a nice pair of my boots on, you know, a nice sweater I was I was I was looking good. And this the mother seemed to want to give a lesson two, her daughter, that's the way I took it. And she she told the little girl to grant me a quarter or whatever it was. And she just wanted to put it in my hand and you could, you know, I couldn't see it. But I could feel her mother just like looking like yeah, go ahead, go do it. Like this is a good girl. You're doing good for the world right now. And I knew there was some little video games over there in the corner. I'm like, No, take, go play the video. And you know, lay down and watch it go you go play the video game, to hell with your mother. And it was just so ah, it was just like, what, there was nothing about me that said that I needed your quarter. There was nothing we saw. You know, I didn't I wasn't like, really offended. I was just really kind of pissed off. Like it was just it's again, it's that thing about disability what folks are looking at it, what do they see? When they see blindness? They don't see me they see blindness and therefore whatever they think about blindness. And that was that was an example of that. But again, just for the record, I was looking good. No doubt. No doubt precede.
Well, let's talk about pod access. And that's how I was first introduced to Cheryl and Thomas was actually through my friend and former colleague Danielle, who connected us so very, very happy that Danielle did that. And, and well, why don't whoever wants to go. Tell our audience about pod access what it is in what you're hoping to accomplish.
Thomas wants to do that one because he can be succinct and I can't.
I don't know if I can be sustained but I'll give it a shot. So pod access is a project that we're working on. And shout out to the Disability Visibility Project and Alice Wong we have funding through that to to do this project where we want to bring podcaster disabled podcast disabled content creators, we want to bring them together with the listeners with the content consumers, those who are interested in getting, you know, any sort of podcast related to transcript related to disability content or produced by disability produced by folks with disabilities. And so as part of that, you know, we started off with a survey because we want to find out what would be helpful for everyone, if we're going to bring bring you together? What do you all need, right. And so the survey, the survey was a was a way to kind of figure out what people wanted, as part of this project, what we're doing is to create a portal, if you will, a website that's going to obviously be able to facilitate bringing people together. But it's also going to be a place where we can have resources, all sorts of resources, that are going to help people start their podcast, continue their podcast, grow their podcast, right? So we want to find out, you know, do you are you trying to go from your day job and doing this podcast that night, to doing a podcast full time? Well, then what are the things that you're going to need to know. And so again, we want to provide them with all of these resources. And of course, we're talking about podcasting. So we have to have a podcast. So we're gonna produce a podcast to help facilitate some of this, right? So so providing these resources, talking about it, talking to other disabled, podcast, disabled, podcasters, who are in all sorts of positions, some who are, again, on the fence, maybe thinking about starting, maybe even talk to some who have started their podcast and abandoned it, you know, we want to hear from them to what happened, what made you stop. And of course, those who are are in the midst of it right now. And just to get a lot of varying experiences from all of these folks and kind of bring them together and in, of course, in an entertaining way, and be able to help other folks who are providing content, other disabled folks who are providing content. So those are those are the Yeah, I would say the three things that this that this site is about. And then going forward, you know, there's a lot of things that we can we can do, because, again, you mentioned 5 million podcasts. And I don't know what the percentage is. And I wish we could could get more information about that. But I know that it's a very small percentage of those 5 million are actually podcast created by folks with disabilities set out to do sure
I would I would venture a guess. Yeah, I would venture that. Yeah. Cheryl. Hi. Yeah. How did Thomas do? Teeth?
I'm so great. I was. Yeah, and I want to sign up for your newsletter. That was awesome. I will be helping you write that newsletter? Yeah, because we're working on this together. One thing that Thomas and I both have done. One thing Thomas and I have both done separately is individual people have come to us. Or people have come to us separately and said, Hey, can I get some advice on starting my podcast? Or Thomas has worked with different people on Hey, can I get advice on accessible audio editing using my screen reader. And we have both, on different occasions, talked people through some of the steps to getting a podcast up and running. And when Alice presented us this opportunity, like hey, I've got funding here, would you like to start this but we're like, yes, because we have been doing this we've been. And it's so enjoyable, it is so much fun to have these conversations with folks. And you know, just just hear their enthusiasm and like, oh, I wanted to put my ideas out there and had no idea how to start I don't know how to get into and we'll set iTunes, I still have an iPod Touch. So I have iTunes, I don't know how to get into Apple podcasts or, you know, people, what are the what's the metadata that you add? How do you edit? How do you get a transcript made? All these pieces, microphones recording? And then the learning goes both ways. So I worked with two folks who use AAC to run their podcasts alternative and augmentative communication. So they are both non speaking or primarily non speaking. And, you know, we talked at length about microphones and how to position the microphone next to your AAC device. And we talked about all these pieces about putting getting the podcast going and they got their podcast out AAC town. It's really good. And halfway through endeavour emailed me Hey, I have an even better idea. I realized I could do a screen recording and then as my AAC device is outputting speech it's recording on the device rather than putting a microphone in front of the device, it sounds better. And it was like, my head exploded like, yes. Because we were having these conversations. I gave them an idea. They ran with it, they improved upon it. Now I have used that as well. I don't use AAC but but I've built on that idea of just recording your screen instead of, you know, holding a microphone up and recording in the air. It's just wonderful. And we've enjoyed talking to people as they get started. And it's very exciting to have this opportunity to formalize it. A good week is when I get to meet have three weeks, three meetings with Thomas per week. The sad weeks are when we only have one meeting, but you know what happens? This is our second this is our third meeting this week. Second, second, but then we're doing thing on Twitter on Friday, so that's good. Anyway, it's wonderful. It's very exciting.
How long have you known each other?
2018. Yeah. Yeah. 2018
We used to talk on the phone once a year. Yeah,
that's right. That's right. It really doesn't count. I think that was when we first met. Yes, we.
We talked once in 20 Nights. Yeah. And maybe once or twice in 2020? Uh huh. We would talk about podcasting. We were talking about
Podcast. I'm sorry to interrupt you.
It was podcasting in audio description. But I think we were primarily talking about podcasting. And then it grew into audio description. And then we had we were on each other's podcasts, talking about podcasting and audio description. We also talked about my cat, we don't only talk about podcasting and audio description.
That's right. And that episode, that was good, because I had a big fail. And that time when we were recording because I was recording at the time, and I still am, but it's a lot different in my closet. I set it up now as a studio. But back then it was just it was sort of pieced together. And when we were recording my everything just went boom, and it fell. And Cheryl did him have like a, you know, a weirdo response? Oh, everything okay with you. So just laugh because I was laughing. And I was like, okay, she's cool. Yeah. And then she took that and ran with it. So that was cool.
Yes, I kept it in the episode. It's about I think you had your iPhone, hanging in a coat pocket and it fell out. And then, and I think your microphone fell over a couple of times, too. And I was just like, I feel this pain because I was also sitting in a closet, you know, close up against the back of my head and close right in front of the microphone or behind the microphone. Yeah. It was. Yes. It was completely delightful.
You're like, podcast? besties. Yeah.
Well, Thomas, you said something about people coming into pod access, whatever. It ends up being with the website and the podcast, looking to move beyond podcasting as a side gig. So I'm wondering, is, is podcasting a side gig for y'all? Or do you also have a day job?
Yes, I've cast side casting a new thing y'all side casting?
That should be a podcast.
That should Hey, I won't credit.
You got it. You heard it first.
That's right. You heard it first. Yeah, no, it's definitely a side gig. It's a side hustle that I've been I've been really thinking about. But it's a side hustle that has led to lots of other things for me. And one of those other things is audio description. NARRATION. So this was a it was a big part in helping me move into, into into that field. Heavy, heavy. And so yeah, that's a that's a big piece of what I do now is audio description, narration and some other voiceover work as well. So thanks to the podcast, so as well as some other as well as some other consultation type things and some audio production, and all of that. So that's the that's the main stuff there. So you know, that's a that's something that you know, when we have that conversation about podcasting and full time work that I don't I don't hear talked about enough on how the podcast can help me to, you know, it can it can be that that's that side thing that you do that maybe doesn't generate funds directly. But it can definitely be a help in getting you access to things to get funds. If that's your, that's your goal. That's what has been doing for me. But hopefully in the future. Hopefully there will be a time that I am doing podcasting full time, full time. That's some things on there on the horizon that I'm working on. And that could be a really cool, really cool opportunity and something that I would really like to go. So stay tuned, y'all. All right.
That's exciting. I have such a bad memory. I get excited about stuff. And then I'm like, Did I already know that? I'm here. I did. Oh, no, you did it. You did it. You did about it. Yes. I hate it. I cannot tell you how many conversations I have with people. And they're like, but I already told you this. And I say was I this excited the first three times she told me they're like, yes, you were equally that you were this excited every
time it is what it
is. It's a fresh day, and everything is new and fun. Not really. Okay. SIPE Yes, side project, it's a side project, I don't earn a dime from it. I don't even remember to do it. I forgot I just this morning, I realized I don't have an episode for October. I don't have the I don't, I don't have the confidence to go out and promote and push my podcast to build my audience. And then have an audience that's big enough that would bring advertising or sponsorship, I just, I just, that's I just don't have it. So from it's just fun for me. And it's just on the side. And I don't know, this past year or two. I'm not as consistent. It used to be one or two episodes every single month. And now it has a little bit had to take the back burner while I've worked on other stuff. It's not going away. But yeah, if either of you have any ideas for my episode for this month, let me know.
Well, let me let me just say, Cheryl, you are a fantastic podcaster. Fantastic, you. Oh, and there's i, and there's no reason why you'd like you shouldn't feel proud of your work and content. And that people who listen would also, like, Signal Boost all of all of your stuff. So. So I'm, again, I'm so happy to have both of you on such exceptional, creative people to share your podcasts with our audience. But this is just in my, in my estimation, this is just the beginning of our friendship. Because I'm very, it's so this podcast, think inclusive, the podcast, it has had been a side gig when I started in 2012. And, you know, sure, you know, Cheryl, I think one year I only produced one podcast episode. And then you know, the next year it was three, and then and then two, and then five, and then eight, and then 12. And, you know, and then in 2020 It was pretty much monthly. And then that's when I that's when I got my job with the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, which is, you know, how I know Danielle, and, and now it's my job. But it's but podcasting is just a part of my job. It's not actually my job, although sometimes it feels like it is because of the amount of effort and I know that you know exactly what I mean. So So I think as far as podcasters go, whether, you know, whatever genre you're in or wherever you're where, wherever you're coming from, um you know, I think we all need a little encouragement to keep going. You know? So keep going, Cheryl. You're great at it.
I'll get I'll keep going. Okay. Let me know if you have an idea for this month because I got nothing.
I think it should be all about rule rule should be all about rule rule.
Is that you can't
an office manager who is accountable? Yes. Okay. Okay, can I just say, one of my clients? It To be clear, one of my clients has started calling him the regional manager and I didn't have the heart to correct them. And now I'm kind of into rubbing that not just the office manager, but the regional manager.
Why does that stick? I mean, can can they actually give the promotion? Or I think you have to give them a promotion? And does like a raise it? Well, I mean, that's, you know, what's the salary change?
Oh, yeah. No, he got a raise. He got a raise. He actually gets more tuna fish on his food than he had been.
Nice. Yeah. Nice. Go ahead, Rob.
Well deserved.
Man, okay, well, we were almost to an hour, folks, this is this is too easy. This is too easy. So before I do want to I do want to honor our time here. So is there any thing else that we didn't talk about? You wanted to make sure that we covered?
I'm gonna jump in rather than wait for Thomas the answer, because I loved your question number seven, though, about messages for educators? And so let's
do it. Well, yeah. What do you want? What do you want to tell educators?
In my imagination, Thomas was answering for a second, okay, but since I read it, because I always want Thomas to go first. Okay. I think if if I had a message for educators, it would be, you'll never believe me that I was actually practicing this answer earlier, which is kind of an illustration of the answer. And that is, is let's go ops. It's, I should have written the notes down, I practiced it in my head and didn't write the notes down. I think it's really important for educators when you have students of any age who have I speak from the perspective of chronic illness and invisible disabilities, that I don't think that educators and training get enough training in this. And so I first want to acknowledge that you may get your teaching degree and your teaching license and do all the practical or the the practicum. And get out there and have your own classroom and you didn't get enough information in working with students with invisible disabilities. So I honor that about teachers, especially who are not in special education teachers especially. But I do also know that even special ed teachers don't get a lot of training in invisible disabilities, especially traumatic brain injury. And I think if I had a message for them, it would be to really follow the lead of the student and believe the student, especially because I can speak from both brain injury and chronic illness that that we change every day. Some days, I need something, and the next day, I don't need that thing anymore. But I'm gonna need it again. So you can't take it away. You can't think that I was faking, just because I did need it yesterday, and I don't today. And some days, I'm too tired, literally, to even move. But I sound the same. And I smile just as much when I talk. And so you might not believe that I'm in pain and to fatigue to move. And so I'd encourage educators really to, like we were talking about before with expectations, broaden your expectations of people and really follow the lead of the students, including when the student can't articulate what it is they're feeling or needing. And is just like, I don't know, I don't know what I need. This is hard. This is too hard. I can't do it. I don't know I feel stupid. You know, a lot of times people want a bright side and say You're not stupid. But follow their lead. Okay, I hear you saying that you feel stupid. Today, I hear you saying you feel like you can't do it. And work go with them following their lead. I think that is something that I feel like I haven't gotten enough of, and I know that teachers are trained in how to do that kind of thing. And I would love for teachers to really have the confidence, especially if you didn't get enough training in this to know that so much of this stuff the student with a disability has inside of them. And you can work together to pull it out and and collaborative. collaboratively meet needs.
Thank you. Jump on that. I'm gonna I'm gonna jump on what Cheryl was just talking about and just say a quick story because I'll use this in any chance I get to talk about this particular teacher. And so it's the it's the important So that because I think teachers may not realize we, you know, when they think about, you know, quote, unquote, their legacy this teacher will live on for me, but not necessarily a good way. So she was an art teacher that I had I spoken about her before a couple of occasions, like I said, I'll talk about her all the time. She was an art teacher, who, during this time, it was like, fourth grade, third, fourth grade, I was actually having some, some vision issues. When I was younger, I had depth perception things. But anyway, so it was really really hard for me to stay literally stay within the lines when when doing artwork, and threading needles and those types of things that required a, you know, some, some vision. And she just didn't, for whatever reason, I think I know, but anyway, she did not particularly care for me. And she would literally, she she taught me until I was in college, that I was not a creative person. And I learned that no, that was so not true in college. But that will always be her legacy that that she tried to get me to believe that I was not a creative person. And by that, you know, when you think about what creativity is, I mean, it's really that process of just kind of, you know, letting things flow thinking like that though there's a there's a thinking there and so that can really be damaging. So I would I would just you know urge teachers educators whatever your position is to really think about that because that that's real when we talk about you know, you have you have a young mind in your in your radar if they're like in your I don't want to say your possession but but you know you have some control there on thankfully that did not stick with me. But again, her legacy will meet with me will always be what I just told you like like that was what she tried to do, and thankfully it did not stick. So think about that.
Cheryl Green and Thomas Reid thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast we appreciate your time
thank you so appreciate you inviting us
thank you
thank inclusive is written, edited and Sound Design by Tim Villegas and is a production of MCIE. Original Music by miles credit. If you enjoyed today's episode here is one way that you can help our podcast grow. Become a patron and get access to ad free episodes behind the scenes posts and a preview of MCI ease new podcast series inclusion stories. Speaking of patrons special thanks to our patrons Melissa H. Sonia a Pamela P. Mark C Kathy B Kathleen T. Jarrett T. Gabby M. Aaron P. And Paula W for their support of think inclusive. For more information about inclusive education or to learn how MCI II can partner with you and your school or district. Visit MCI e.org Thanks so much for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works
