TTIGF 2021 04 Digitalization – The Multistakeholder Approach
6:37PM Jan 29, 2021
Dr. Sean Rock
multi stakeholder approach
My role here today is school moderator for the first panel discussion, that being
digitalization, the multi stakeholder approach, hot off the press from the digital 21, the state of the internet report. These statistics. Social media users have grown at the fastest rate in three years to 4.2 billion, up 13% year on year. We know spend 42% of our waking time online, with the average internet user clocking up almost seven hours a day on the web. 5.2 billion people use a mobile phone 77% of internet users indicate that they buy something online. And older age groups are the fastest growing segments among some of the top social platforms, Facebook, Twitter, etc. What does this have to do with digitalize digitalization. The growing use of digital devices has heightened in material demand and the need for digitalization. My name is rabindra Jagannath. I am a director of the TT mog Trinidad and Tobago multi stakeholder advisory group and I have the pleasure in carrying you through the first panel discussion. digitalization. The multi stakeholder approach. co moderating with me is Sanjay Bahadur Singh. Sanjay is also a director of Tiki mug and our panelists each day it is Maria Daniels and Shawn rock, whom I will introduce in a short while. What is digitalization? digitalization is the use of digital technologies to change the business model and provide new revenue and value producing opportunities. It is a process of moving to a digital business. Digital technology has revolutionized almost every aspect of this life as set by the Minister, as said by the previous speakers of his book shopping, music, movies, television photography, travel transport, long distance communication, are just some areas that have been transformed. in Trinidad. Like many parts of the world, the COVID era has resulted in an acceleration of digitalization. We are forced to use digital technologies for areas such as education and commerce. What are we benefiting sufficiently. For example, across the public sector, there are various forms of digital transformation taking place at different stages of progress. Part of the driver for this is that the citizens now expect a level of service akin to what they receive from private companies. Speed, usability, availability and reliability are key. In the private sector, companies are looking for innovative ways to use technology to improve their processes. The Internet, a capitalist or facilitator of digitalization, is open, distributed, interconnected and transact and transnational. In the Internet area as in other areas, the multi stakeholder approach is widely accepted as the ultimate as the optimal way to make policy decisions for a globally distributed network. One of the current challenges in taking forward vision for digitization of Trinidad for Trinidad and Tobago is understanding where and how to engage with a range of different multi stakeholder processes and policymaking efforts currently underway, given the growing importance of the digital economy, and the ever expanding technology landscape, there have been a proliferation of efforts that have the potential to shape policies, governance models, and infrastructure investment priorities. But it's often difficult for many stakeholders in the public and private sectors to identify and focus on these processes with the highest potential for transformative, transformative impact.
Which brings us to our first panel discussion, digitalization the multi stakeholder approach. We have someone on the panel representing the private sector, someone representing the public and someone who can provide a develop concrete perspective and, and disregard and largely because I've said too much already, we will just move on to the panel and give each panelists just about five minutes. really talk to the topic and thereafter we should open Question and Answers. First of all, I would actually call on Peter Davis, I have the good fortune of having connections with all of the panelists in some form or fashion. Peter is the principal of Peter Davis and Associates, a management consulting firm specializing in IP governance, security and audit. And I just see a management consulting firm in Oulu domiciled in Toronto, Canada. Prior to founding PDA, Mr. Davis private sector experience included in two large Canadian banks and a manufacturing company. He was formerly a principal in Information Systems audit practice instantly on in the public sector, Mr. Davis was the Director of Information Systems audit in the office of the provincial auditor in Ontario, where he had oversight audit responsibilities for all Ontario crown copper cooperation, agencies and boards, to the to information technology, governance, audience and security veteran, Mr. Davis career includes positions as consultant, security administrator, security planner and Information Systems auditor. And it's interesting to note that Mr. Davis, despite his long standing,
let's say, foray into infinite Information Technology and management consulting, is currently pursuing an LLM degree at the University of Toronto, a very ambitious person. So, Peter, let's hear from you some introductory remarks. And then we'll hear from the other speakers, and then we'll throw it out. Ready for questions. And from the, from the wider audience. So Peter, over to you.
Yeah, thanks, Danny. And thanks, everybody for having me speak. Normally, when I've gone down and done some work in Trinidad, it's never in the winter, now I get an opportunity in the winter, and I can't go to Trinidad. So you know, how's that working out? For me, I just wanted to bring up some issues to talk about what the people should consider for the next two days as you're attending this conference. So let's just set some context. You know, we heard that kind of Kumar, give us some history around the internet. But think about the genesis of how, how the internet sort of evolved, like, the way that coral grows, it builds upon itself builds upon itself until it becomes too brittle and breaks off. And so now we're trying to go back and retrofit something to something that's sort of grown organically over time. And that's not always easy. I'm sure you've heard the expression that the only reason God created the world in six days was that there was no installed base. So we're dealing now with installed base that we have to go back and try to retrofit. The other term, a term that we've sort of thrown in here is this concept of multi stakeholder. So first, we have to identify all the stakeholders and then determine what would be their their input into this process. So you know, I don't envision that we all stand around in a circle holding hands and singing, Kumbaya, you know, the world just doesn't work that way. But hopefully, we can come to some meeting of the minds. Danny mentioned the very good paper from the Internet Society. And if you haven't read the one about the multistakeholder, I suggest that you you do read it. in there, though it talks about three pillars or three components. And I hope that the next two days, and even in this session that we have an opportunity to talk about the three components, there will be somebody probably talking about the cultural part of this, which is very important than that. And that's really the human aspect that you have to develop your, your your own talent. And you have to educate the people with respect to digital concepts and how to do digital. But the hardest part is the digital culture developing into digital culture. And as wag who many years ago said that culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? So, you know, it's not an easy thing to develop that culture. The next thing that I'm reminded that is part of it, and it was emphasized to me this morning, was this concept that we have to build out the infrastructure. And I don't know if the rescue sighs but up on my screen, it popped up with the first speaker, it was suffering from low bandwidth. And so if you want to develop a digital society, then you have to build out the infrastructure. I was, I was shocked the other day to see that us is implementation of 5g, the rollout that they are proposing is actually has less capacity than our 4g or LTE in Canada, because I would have thought they were lightyears ahead of us because they keep telling us that they're the best country in the world. But at least this has that Canada is out shining us. The next component that you need to think about is the whole concept of governance.
need to build that echo system to be able to support, you know, the initiatives that we're talking about. And that is not the is not easy to build out that, that decentralized governance institutions within your country, and then how your country will interact with other countries. So last thing, I think I have a few moments left the challenges that I see that you need to address in the next two days, and we could address it starting with this session. First off, we have to look at nationalism. So between your country and my country, we've seen a lot of nationalism going on for the last four years. And we saw something in Canada this week, we found very disturbing where the US is engaging in nationalism again, and they're killing off the what's called the Keystone pipeline. That's not a lot of jobs. But it still it was done unilaterally by the United States, and it's affecting the economy of Canada, we even see that companies like AWS, Amazon Web Services, taking the government, the US government to task because they awarded a contract to Microsoft, which was a very big contract of $10 billion. And then the argument is, I'm gonna read this, that it was flawed and politically corrupted decision. So people are making decisions that are politically flawed or incorrect. The next thing that I think you should think about as we go through these two days is the 26 words that created the internet. So in the United States, there's something called the communications decency act and section 230, or specifies those 26 words. And if you haven't seen the 26 words, then I suggest you look at them and think about what they mean. The next thing I'd like to talk about a we should talk about is this concept of net neutrality. Now Canada has something that we have called the CRTC, which we use to regulate telecommunications and Canada. And in there, it specifically says that we will be net neutral, whereas the United States talk about it, they beat their chests, but then we see that they're going to do things that are not true. Now, in some ways, I'm sort of on side with them. Because I think if somebody wants to spam me, then they should have a lower priority when sending the email than my sister Nancy, and that COVID. Right. So I think there should maybe be some sort of tariffs applied. But again, that could affect the economists, we need to think about it. The bigger question, I think, that nobody really wants to address are things like Facebook and the rest of the Fang stocks, you know, that term Fang, which is Facebook, Amazon, apple, Netflix, and Google, which everybody seems to be going after these days? Is this concept of some of these public good? are they serving a public good, and if they are a public good, then you know, common law in your country in mine and all the common law countries states that there is this concept of eminent domain, which means that somebody could come along the government come along, and, and basically take them over. Another thing we have to consider is censorship. So we're seeing a lot of that, especially around all the trolling, and the propaganda and everything that's been going on for the last four years. But it's been going on a lot longer than that, because, you know, we even saw that Google put out a paper that, I think was last October, that they did their own analysis and found out that 64% of the people who joined extremist, right wing groups on Facebook, were actually recommended to do so by Facebook. So consider that. So somebody is on doing something at Facebook, and they're obviously leaning to the right. So Facebook pops up and something that says, Oh, you, you might want to join you or not. So then somebody joins Q and on and then when they're on cue and on. And that might be Oh, you might want to join the proud boys, you know, so they're getting sucked into it by the platform itself. So where do we start? Or where do we end with this concept
of censorship. The last thing I just want to briefly talk about is this concept of privacy. So countries around the world need to decide whether we're going to deal with privacy with respect to property laws, we're going to talk about privacy with respect to liability laws, the Americans have decided that they're going to deal with it with back to liability. So if your information is breached, your personal information is breached, then you might be able to sue to recover some loss, whereas a lot of other countries are considering No, it's a you know, it's a we should use in property rights. Like we would use intellectual property. So I own the property, I own my personal data, and I can sell it to you. But there's a again, it's a difficult concept, to, to deal with. And it's not an easy solution, because we go from one extreme where we have, you know, no privacy to the other extreme, where we have very strict privacy. And if we have no privacy in place, then what happens is people don't take To offer data. So think about Facebook, if people said, Well, I'm not going to post anything to Facebook, then what value does Facebook have? Are they on the other hand, Facebook wants to use that information, to sell you information or to provide that information to other people. So somewhere in between there, we're sort of in this, you know, Goldilocks Goldilocks and the Three Bears situation where we just need to find what's right. And again, what's right is what serves the individual as well as a better society at large. So I think I've given you some things to think about in the two days and maybe some some science questions.
Good Peter, and you have given a whole panel and so some things to think about because when we have a questions and answer them, certainly unique q&a session, some of these things will come up, come back up again. And we look forward to you food ventilating on these items. Our second panel is Maria Daniel. Maria is a partner in the strategy and transaction practice at Infineon based in the Trinidad office. She has led several high profile engagements and has provided clients with advice on raising both debt and equity capital as well as strategic options analysis towards maximizing shareholder value. He specilized specializes in business valuations transaction support services on both the buy side and sell side of the transaction. acquisitions and divestitures Independent Business Review receiverships restructuring strategic advisors is included digital transformation and to neuron advisory. Maria is a Chartered Financial Analyst who was an FCC designation and a BSc in Economics and Management from the University of the West Indies.
Maria is also a licensed trustee under the bank under the bankruptcy and insolvency act of Trinidad and Tobago, and has worked in several different sectors across the Caribbean, not limited to FinTech solutions, strategic advisory services, Valuation Services, IFRS, nine implementation receiverships and also assurance support. He also works with entrepreneurs to develop business plans and models and new expansion projects. And recently, he has been focusing on developing digital strategies for clients. Maria camedia, a few introductory remarks from you.
So you know, change really only occurs when remaining the same is more painful than the change itself. And we've seen that with COVID-19. But when I think about you know, all the discussions we're having and listening to our initial speakers, we tend to focus on the nitty gritty, when we talk about multi stakeholder, and everybody has a role everybody has to play that role. But what is that role all coming together to achieve? So when I talk about digitization, and I talk about digital strategy with my clients, and I talk about transformation, let us understand that digitization is an enabler, you first have to have a vision, you first have to have what am I trying to achieve by going digital. I see a lot of people doing digital things. They have an app, they have online application, but end to end, they are not digital. So I have many people going on my online store, but I haven't changed my supply logistics in order to deliver my products. So when we talk about multi stakeholder, and we can look at the macro view, what are we all trying to achieve? What do we see as a digital nation? How is our education, our education going to change? How is it workforce going to change? What are the skills that we really need? Now unless we have one big vision that we're all working towards, we can have every stakeholder doing something we get everybody playing their part, but what if their part is not sharing the same vision or the same strategy, then what we're gonna have in cell is a multi stakeholder chaos. So I think what we need to think about when we're talking about multi stakeholder, we first have to start with, what are we all trying to achieve? Where are we seeing this going? And then who are all the parties that need to play and be accountable, a word that you knew does not really work in turn that sometimes accountable for your part? So I would like us to really discuss and look at, you know, the broader picture of this is where we want to go. Most of the technology we're talking about today and I'm sure Peter could could attest to this. Didn't Just exist one year ago, right? Everybody, the Minister spoke about Estonia, Estonia took this leap 20 years ago, two decades, they started to visualize that they wanted to be a digital leader. And they put everything in place to get there. So when we're talking about multistakeholder, and I will bring that down even to the corporate organization, your IT people can decide we're going digital, and there will be success. Your business people have to set your customer serving your supply logistics, your it all have to work together towards how are we using digital to differentiate ourselves? How are we using digital to execute our strategy, but we first must understand what is the strategy. So I think when we start speaking about multistakeholder, it cannot be multistakeholder in your own little silo. So more and more businesses want to see the return on investment from in, you know, we could buy all the laptops, and you will but if people don't know how to use them, then it's going to be wasted money. We could you know, when we think about, you know where this could go and really using digital to maximize value, it can go very far. But each person have to understand what are we trying to achieve? You know, I did computer science, I wouldn't say how long ago but very long ago, so much. So it was probably the first in the first two years that computer science was actually offered in our schools at an O and a level. And I'm listening to my daughter who is now doing it in form five. And it's exactly the same thing I learned 20 years ago, well more than 20. But that can't be right. So here we are talking about a digital nation. But our education and our curriculum is not changing, but how the world is changing. So I want us to think about not only us, you know, being multi stakeholder, but multi multi stakeholder working towards one vision, one strategy, which accountability for each of the leavers and responsibility being clearly clearly understood by all parties, otherwise, we are going to have chaos. And we are going to have leavers that are not moving together to the bigger goal. So I'm looking forward to the discussion. And I love the panel because as you said, Danny, we have a wide cross section here of these multi stakeholders.
You have a wide cross section. You're right. And we have a lot to do basically, to create the framework and foundation for the discussions over the next two days. Thank you very much Maria. Our next panelist is Dr. Sean rock. Sean is the chairman of I got PT Sydney qualified to talk on this panel is a distinguished lecturer at the University of the West Indies and the Gaston campus in Electrical and Computer Engineering. He has co authored numerous articles for various publications including books engineering journals, such as the western Journal of engineering, presentations and workshops at conferences, both regionally and internationally. His career started in teaching mathematics, physics, and being the network administrator at a local college. He subsequently embarked on his academic pursuits that led him to complete his BSc in Electrical and Computer Engineering at ue graduating the top of the cohort within within the faculty.
His keen interest in information and communication technologies led him to read for a master's in communication management, with a focus on government policy and management of ICT implementation in the UK, and then a PhD in Electrical and Computer Engineering in the US, focusing on next generation, spectrum management or emerging wireless technologies. Throughout his academic pursuits, Dr. Rock has been the recipient of numerous scholarships and awards than by his exemplary exemplary work is a member of and has been a review of various publications for the Institute of electronic Electrical and Electronic Engineers IEEE and he's also a member of IEEE communications society, ECM association of Computing Machinery machinery, and has been a motivational speaker for the heroes foundation. Sean, can we hear a few words from you before we get into the q&a session?
I'm very sorry. Thanks again, Danny, for that. I thought it was unmuted, but it but there's a delay in the software on my very aged platform. But never mind that. Thanks again for the invitation and the opportunity to speak.
I listened very well to all the contributions that everybody has made so far for on this panel, as well as in the welcome address and the the address by the Minister. And I have to say that first I, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that has been said. So I'm going to keep what I have to say particularly short and focus on a niche area and only sort of be devil's advocate, in a sense, based on some of the things that have been said, Not that I agree or disagree, but just for the sake of discussion. So I listened to one thing that was said by the honorable minister, and I actually said, We need everybody, we need you all. And I think that is one of the the basic tenets of the multi stakeholder approach. It has to be about having a seat at the table. But I want to balance that with pragmatism as what was already said by the esteemed other colleagues on the panel. Because in order for something to succeed, sometimes Yes, everybody should have a seat at the table. I agree. There's an issue of equity and fairness that we need to discuss that comes with a different definition of the rules, the definition of that shared goal, that definition of what is it that the particular stakeholders are interested in, affecting and are affected by for the shared process, the shared destiny that arises that they are trying to work towards accomplishing a particular goal. And I'd put forward that I'd want to extend the analogy of the there's a seat at the dinner table, I'd want to suggest that there's a seat in the kitchen as well, or a place in the kitchen as well. Because the dinner table is more about benefiting from the many things that are going on. But having not the opportunity to participate in the joys and the interaction and the community building and the and so on that goes on in the kitchen to prepare the meal, the hard work and effort, I can understand why it is that sometimes people often feel marginalized or the the question what their role is. And if any of you have ever been in a sort of a family gathering, I'd like to draw and put some experiences in making the points. If you've ever been in a family gathering, particularly in a cramped kitchen, the coordination and understanding what this you're doing, what dishes are being made, etc, is very important. So it comes back to the point that the panelists made with respect to defining your rules. Now, in addition to this, sometimes there's a bit of give and take. So you also hear a lot of times with multi stakeholder approaches about not being listened to. There is no need. And I think I think it was Peter who said it, there's no need for consensus. There's need for general agreement. So my question to you is, when you're thinking about the activities for the next few days, what are you prepared to agree upon? And what are you prepared to negotiate? And what are you prepared to put to the side because maybe you it's not impossible to get everything you want. When you are trying to achieve some common goal, your common goal might be just 1% of the thing that you're doing. And I think this is a problem that is faced across the board. Now another area that hasn't, outside of what the minister honorable minister had said, that hasn't really been been talked about much. And sometimes I would see people get the perception that the public sector is a little bit slow to move. And I think a lot of it has to do with awareness. And I believe that I don't want to confuse awareness with transparency. I want to talk about awareness and the point of view of being a and I think Maria said it as well. accountability. What are we responsible for? What are we doing? Why are we doing it? A lot of the times it's work in progress. Danny, you said it You said that you recognize there are a lot of things that are going on. The question sometimes is Do people know? How can they be part of the process? I think as well that Maria mentioned the SU as
of now that you you you have some some understanding of what you're doing, then how are you going to as a group of stakeholders sort of move forward. And, and that is also part of the equation. Now, in given and in accepting that you may not always agree you may have to deal with with structural changes and and issues of governance. I think that is particularly important when one thinks about the role that the public sector plays any multi stakeholder process. Sometimes there's the role of the problem solver, the role of the facilitator, the role of the lead, I wouldn't want to I want to separate that in terms of the legislative, the economic and so on the things that only they can can really drive based on how the systems and the institutions are set up. And when you think about it, and hopefully over the next few days, I want us to really consider that in many instances. The difficulty or the conflicts that arise that impede the multi stakeholder process generally derived from something that one or many stakeholders may not necessarily understand or appreciate about something else that another stakeholder might be doing. Now, with that in mind, I think those are just some little points to plug in, to what has been said already. And I just wanted to throw that out. So I'd hand back over to you, Danny, at this point. And I welcome any questions and the discussion to pursue.
Okay, thank you very much. Peter. Maria, Shawn multistakeholder rhythm is a word that I came across. If you look at it, it will take up your arms, your line. It's that's what we're all talking about. And let's have the probably, let's have people see who Sanjay is Sanjay is moderating this session. And Sanjay is monitoring the chat room for questions from participants, so that we can bring it to the panel. So we have the panel now and we moving straight into the questions and answer session. And a lot of good things have been said in talk is exactly what we wanted from the three panelists, you've opened out the topic in such a way that is going to engage a lot of discussion with participants, and among yourself. So let me just, well, if you can put it on the panelists, to all the panelists, let me just kick off a question. And Sanjay, when I am Colin, you're the appropriate time to bring up all the questions from the chat room. And here's Andre is our co moderator. Today want to just introduce yourself? Good morning, everyone.
Sanjay Singh. Nice to be on this panel. With the those panelists. I look forward to your questions. as Danny mentioned, I'll be monitoring the chat. And should you have any comments or question, feel free to direct and I will ensure that is channeled to all panelists. Thank you.
Great. So all the panelists, do you think that the multi stakeholder approach is essential to successful digitalization? And this two way? very broad question, but gives you an opportunity to talk about the whole issue. You want me to go first?
I think at any time that you're trying to pull people along, then it needs a multi stakeholder approach. You need to get people involved. As I said a little bit earlier, I think the most difficult thing is identifying the people that need to be involved. And they're not always evident. And some people we think should be involved shouldn't be and others we don't get involved should be. You know, to me this concept of multi stakeholder approach, it's like we're pretending that it's a new thing. But But this has been around since time immemorial, that there's nothing new here. We just need to we just need to talk to people and and get their input like we would in anything like we had the minister Weston earlier. I'm sure when they go out to talk about developing laws they they reach out to, to people to get input. I think that's the same thing that it's required.
Marie, you were talking or multi stakeholder isn't really at the micro level. It was talking about it at a macro level. Tell us what you feel, in terms of the multi stakeholder approach is essential to the success of digitalization.
Yeah, it's definitely I mean, that's a no brainer, right. So I'm not going to see you and yeah, that's a given. I think what we have to look at it from is again, Going back to, to what end? Right? What are we all trying to achieve? And I'm just looking at a chart here. And there's a comment or question. And I think this has been why we have failed in moving forward. And somebody was asking, you know, if multi stakeholder ism is pursued, how is intellectual property individually identified? And why I'm saying this has been the root cause of us moving forward? Is we always seem to go back to what is it in for me? Not what is the bigger picture, everybody wants to be stuff. So the young people might not remember. And why I'm going into this is because we are in a small economy, a small economy means that we can't have 10 people doing the same thing. So as Sean mentioned, that we also have to understand how's our room? And Peter just said, Who needs to be there? Who is the best in that room? If we have 10 people that could do the same thing? And how do we all understand what we're trying to achieve? You know, when we do team building exercises, sometimes we give a team, and we just each person has a part that they need to draw. And it never ends up being what the whole is supposed to look like, because no one knows what the other one is supposed to be doing. And no one understands what we're all trying to achieve. It's the same thing here. So I think we need to get out of this individualism, for multistakeholder to really be a success, because we've seen Yeah, we all working together. No, but we all working together for what is best for me, but not what is best for the overall objective.
All right. You know, Danny, I think we need to shift the order of this, you know, because I have to agree with that already. What I would, what I would say is, as Maria said, is a no brainer, yes. multistakeholder. Another analogy, if you permit me to think about the human body, we can survive, if any of the organs or the essential organs are missing can be there. So we can survive without with they do play a role. But again, the whole point of the human body, the doctors, the medical doctors may not agree with me, it's really to keep the brain moving. But the brain can't do anything about the rest of the parts. And early, right. So So this is where we talk about that issue of you know, you're thinking intellectual exercise, as it relates to, as has already been said, What is in it for me? Why, why am I in this? What do I stand to benefit? And and in answering that, as Maria also mentioned, and Peter also mentioned, you really need to think about what is the common goal, you can't think about everything in the bucket, you have to think about the drops that relate to you. I don't want to go into mathematical visualization with Venn diagrams, but you don't always have overlapping interests. So it's really key to focus on what is important in that respect, and to sort of throw something else out there. In terms of unexperienced over the last few years, any minister would have mentioned that. I don't know how many of you were familiar with the hot tea tea exercise, that that came out, it was really about a collaboration, I would say multi stakeholder engagement involving members of the public sector, the ICT community, private sector, particularly in terms of crafting the terms of reference, and in mentoring, the next generation tertiary level institutions. And between you and me, I really wanted secondary school as well, anytime maybe even primary school, but you know, it was a pilot. Also government ministries, divisions and agencies were involved because they had the problems. It was about a year it took about a year and change, just a dialogue to understand what are the things the different actors want to get out of it, and maybe not all actors were included in that, that that pilot, but the the success to me was in the fact that the students got mentorship, the government agencies got proofs of concept on digital services and I'm reappointed to the bigger picture in terms of why but get into that it you know, the activities like this could funnel into into that sort of activity. At the end of the of the activity, the students will recognize these students hadn't had the intellectual efforts, rewarded and showcased. They are currently being piloted to different degrees within the different recipient ministries, divisions and agencies. The minister referred to employ TT those that was one of the things that was looked at. Additionally, there was benefit I believe, I started getting Directed. But in terms of the initial discussions, a lot of the mentors from the private sector, it is known about, you know, corporate social responsibility. And we cannot feel nice in the morning, they got a hidden CVS of these students, they got to see what they really could do, they got to see that there are opportunities to draw on these students, maybe by interfacing with academia, to solve some of their own problems to do sort of collaborations. And I think that's something that you see a lot in many developed countries, and I wish that we could see a little bit more of that in in, in, in all parts of the world as well. So Danny, I just hand it back over that. But I think that's what it really sets out to me in terms of what's the recipe for
and falling onto what is the we have to not only look at the the upside of digitalization, we have to look at the positives, because there are tremendous positives. There are a lot of downsides, yes, but two things that can be manageable. And of course, they are better manageable if a multitude of people come together to manage them, rather than leaving it up to one.
Guy. Sorry. Can you drop daddy? Good morning. Good. I just want to say that we I am listening to the conversation, and I've listened to the same conversation for the last 20 years. You think is about we we really wants to do it? No, of course, we are the drivers. But we I keep coming to the same conversations all the time. And I'm Dr. Rock is saying is sitting in a very crucial position. You know, it is not about agreeing, whatever what everybody else is saying we don't have to drive it to the coin, or daddy angle George's mantra for the last 20 years, we have to have a champion, who is the champion? Who will it be? will it be? Danny? Will it be George? Will it be Dr. Rock? Would it who would it be? It's not somebody else's responsibilities or responsibility? And I say no, because I include myself and not because I've been involved with this the longest while we have any same conversations over and over again. As somebody new comes into the picture, you start over the conversation. Yeah, yeah. Asking non it people to champion Oh, of course, it's not gonna work. We have to champion our own cause. What is I gonna do in the footer it in countries still have it in into code in a meaningful way, you know, so you still have pockets of Internet in Los bajos. On those places, in the last 2030 years be doing this thing? So you know, good, good con. Let's, let's take it one step further. I
agree. And, yes, I have been a player in this year and trying to get greater uptake in what we now call digitalization for the better part of three decades. Let's Let's polling on that point. Before we take some questions. Sanjay? Is this your champion? Is their champion? Oh, is there an entity that we can actually identify as a champion for digitalization in Canada?
That's a tough question. Yeah, it was say that the answer I would have given is I think the government has to lead this. And the reason I'm going to give that bad answer is because in Canada, where we see the government help this concept of digitalization is through the programs that it has in place. So one that's very popular is one called the threat credits. And then since for scientific research and experimental development, now it's a tax credit, which means you have to have some revenue, but at least it gives relief to small companies to do innovation. And we also have other tax benefits. So whether you capitalize something or operationalize it, when it comes to expenses also has some impact. We're also trying to set up more, you know, like, we have an organization called the BBC, which specifically lends money to small, you know, innovative companies. So you need to free up capital to support the the small, innovative companies. And I think that has to come through, you know, through regulations, legislation and government, because we can't do it as a as a company. But can I just say one thing before I move on? I want to go back because it was it's hidden that question and I just wanted to point out and say that, that what Maria, Daniel said was was absolutely correct. I think you have to, you have to alter your vision before you try to reconfigure your business model. So this is true. At a macro level of government level, as well as at the, at the organizational level, you know, I, about 30 years ago, I saw a vice president from Toronto Dominion bank do a presentation. And he used the term that I've used ever since because I thought it was brilliant. And it goes to what Maria was saying, he used the term of electronic bearer thing. So what he meant by that is you can cover over your lousy old processes and your lousy old company using shiny new technology, but it's still the lousy old processes, right? So you've probably heard the expression and lipstick on a pig, rearranging the chairs on the on the Titanic, paving over cow pastures, it's all the same thing. Unless you actually re engineer something and do something differently, then all you're going to do is the things you do now faster, that might be more disastrous for your organization.
And that's between automation and transformation is what we're talking about it transformation is about completely changing the way that you do things. And, you know, I get frustrated as well, the same way we have any same discussions for the last 20 years, the Minister talked about building a culture. And I tell many of the CEOs I work with the CEO, help us create our culture, help us write a culture statement, you know, write a culture statement, you act a culture, you need a culture. And I think we get too much into, you know, democracy is a good and a bad thing. I think somebody said it earlier, we don't need consensus, we need to agree that this is the best way to go. And the leaders need to read that charge. And I'll give some other examples globally. So in Nigeria, which we knew how a lot of issues with corruption, it was their central bank that took the lead on a cashless society. They forced the banks to change their technology, they incentivize people not to use cash. That's how you drive real change. Somebody hand the top has to say, guess what, this is just how we're going to do it. We don't want to see no more. This is how it's going to be done. We're going to give everybody the best teachers, because we can now digitally offer that to all schools. But somebody has to take the mantle and see this is what is best. Get all the stakeholders who need to be there involved, and then just do that's all problem we talk, but we don't do
it. Justice, just a moderator. Because for points that have been that has been festering for two, three decades, with me and with it in Malta, Trinidad and Tobago, but um, I see that the other Daniel has his hands up. Let's get a quick statement. And then move on to some questions through Sanjay.
Thank you very much chair. Well, first of all, I would like to congratulate the TT mag, on executing this very important forum, the TTI gf 2021. Because in this day and age, having these kinds of discussions will play an important part in ensuring that developments move in the direction that they need to now in ICANN, the internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, we we are based on the multi stakeholder model. We have spaces for business government, end users, technical community, and country code managers and so on. So all of the policy that is developed within ICANN for Internet is actually based on the multi stakeholder model. And I have to say that what I've seen is that Trinidad and Tobago has been very effective in playing their part in all of these different stakeholder groups. So but what we are seeing now is a little bit of a change, which is why I like Shawn's analogy of having a seat at the table. Reserve is having a seat in the kitchen, because it's one thing to be at the table. But if you're not active in making inputs in stating concerns, then that seat a seat at the table is not really effective. What we are seeing now is while there used to be good participation in the past, that that seems to be falling off a bit train that still has seats, you know, with regard to government and users, technical community and so on. But the people who have been working hard some of them are at this TT IGF are suffering from burnout. So my question to the panel is how do you deal with that issue of sustaining enthusiasm for participation in the multi stakeholder model? Thank you.
Good. So, analyst. Anybody Yeah.
Because I also wanted to kind of, I wanted to answer it, but I wanted to add to the discussion before in a sense, because it's sort of it sort of fits in with what I'm about to see. So, in terms of, of, and this is something from my academic seat that I tend to look at a lot, and I can't I can't remember who said it earlier, but it has to do with a sense of national service, it has to do with a sense of understanding what are the things you want to derive benefit from? Before COVID, I was probably clocking in about 140 hours a week, we can have which 100 or more so online, there are 168 hours in the week for those who don't know. So I can't claim that I suffer from pandemic fatigue and burnout, because it's always been like that. But especially now, I think a lot of people that are getting into the digitalization artificially accelerated because of everything in front of us. And and all of the other issues, the human issues associated with it. What helps me to be very honest, especially in teams is the cliche team building the taken us up, you know, a little lunch meter and a little, you know, a little time to just have a dialogue. Sometimes, one of the biggest issues I have encountered working with teams, especially in a multi stakeholder type of arrangement is that there's a lot of data drift in awareness of what is going on with different agents. And, and usually, when you're knee deep in the execution of something, or even in the dialogue, leading towards planning for the execution, you know, it's always good to establish proper lines of communication and, and to really maintain those lines of communication, you can't be so busy, that you're unable to share information with each other because that communication channel is essential to to the process. And with that in mind, I just want to you know, just go back a little bit with respect to the question, that comment that john had made earlier, I I do agree that there needs to be a champion, the question of who is the champion, sometimes we we lump everybody into the same buckets? And, and that's why I say we need to clarify the rules. And And the thing about transformation is it's less revolution and more evolution. So things change, for example. Does anybody think that? What is the rule that let's see certain random state enterprise responsible with the mandate for advising government on matters of ICT? What is the role that they should take? In this day and age compared to what it was 10 years ago? Those are the kinds of discussions that need to be had. Those are the things that determine what you can and cannot do. I think that because of the the, the need for awareness, and I take it upon myself that that is something that I need to do more of, we need to be more aware of what is going on work in progress can't remain hidden for one. But also, what are we required to do? What are we being asked to sometimes for the sake of the greater good, another term that has been used, you step outside of your bounds, and the lines become blurred? And sometimes it happens so many times that you know, what, you stand to lose your rules. So again, that comes back to issues of governance, which comes back to the question of who is the champion? And what are the rules of the different people in the kitchen and at the table.
And hold on, john, we've got to give a lot of people opportunities to talk to support a statement shown. You have to learn from our history in it advocacy, rather than seeking to redo and every time we have somebody who is the de facto champion, that person seeks to redo all that has been done in the past, and we don't seem to move forward now. But Sanjay bathroom.
There's been a lot of chat, relating to education. They've been talking a lot about the multi stakeholder process. Now, a few comments here that, you know, I'm going to go into but before I get to that, there's a this is a YouTube question, and I am going to try it out. It hasn't been directed to any one of our panelists. But what has been the biggest challenge in ruling out egovernance? That's an open question to the panel.
I could, I could start I would say I would say clarification of rules. in one respect resources in another area. Respect, I think that that has have significant parts of the play. Sometimes you're bound as a simple example. There was a recent committee meeting, I mean, recent over the last 12 months or so, whereby one of the particular challenges that is faced is the issues of people and resourcing. What can you do to make sure that you are properly equipped with and are able to retain those individuals, or those groups that can assist you, or that can encourage the transformation that you need to do? And this is why when you look not, even when you know, you hear these these things, I've been hearing it myself, not for 20 years, like Danny, but definitely, for some time, you know, you hear the same arguments, as john, as well pointed out, you hear the same comments, and what is different, and it's unfortunate, and I push this analogy to you, sometimes it's not for lack of doing imagine you had a building, this is a nice building, you've you've, you've done your part to build it, it's a little bit expensive, but you want to now sell it to somebody. And because of the expense associated with the building, you need to go through some processes to allow the bank to finance it for potential clients. So let's just see right. Now, when you go and do that there are some processes to do that. And sometimes we know that those take a long time. Yeah, let's say for instance, those processes are sorted out. And let's say through digitalization, you can do a lot of those things. Even so, let's say somebody moves into the building, there's the issue of maintenance, especially in the realm of ICT things change. So while we might have been in a position, let's see where we might have had a certain standing at a certain point on the timeline, over time, that's going to change, because technology changes, things change, we need to evolve. So I think sometimes that is the thing that we need to look at, as to why is it that we feel and we observed from what we see and hear and taste and touch and smell, that we are seemingly in the same position every time, I don't think that we necessarily are in the same position every time. I think that what happens is that we we do move sometimes, but things need to be maintained and effort needs to be put on ensuring that we maintain that level of status as well.
Shawn, I want to go one step further on a probie. A little more, I believe I could do that. Right. Danny, with your permission, of course. Sean, judging from you know, the comments, I'm a senior, your response to that question. For the benefit of everyone here, would you be in a position to help bring some clarity to the rule that I got TT has in this transformation, if any?
Certainly I can do that. And I'll try to do it. And in just two or three sentences, if possible. First of all, given the mandates that are put on us, based on the current governance structures, the company essentially is tasked, as it relates to certain matters of ICT to help those in the ministries divisions and agencies who can as well as those who may not be necessarily equipped to do so. And what do I mean by that we are here to help with with with the government to advising on matters of standardization and interoperability, for instance, for helping to put those frameworks in place. Another thing that the company looks at, as well from an operational perspective has to do with the building blocks that would allow you to effect a lot of these digital services. So the Align infrastructure, the the various building blocks services, we've moved a little bit more into into ruling out certain services such as government payment solutions to assist in the development of these services. And and this is these are just some of the things that we do the other side of it is as it relates to the other four pillars of the national ICT blueprint, so one area that we were particularly focused on over the last two years or so, has been that of capacity building and that's where we have TT concept came from, because it's one thing to, to build out our you know, internal infrastructure to allow government agencies to interact use it, you know, using those those infrastructure, services, email, etc. It's another thing to know reengineer the process is to get people to rethink how they do things, so that you can, I would say reinvent but change the way that you deploy digital services and that was one of the things that we will look As in this activity pilot, it was really just to get the people talking to understand that you do try to take the people process and put it on ICT, that's not going to make sense. That's one side of it. So, you know, it's it's a multifaceted role in that regard. So, you know, it's not about, let's say, necessarily putting a laptop first student let's see as an example, I do hear a lot about No, but what it is is about assisting those as it relates to put in a lab report for the students, what are the standards you should use for the laptops? What are you making sure that you have the proper user requirements specified? Do you have Have you considered some of those things have you considered you know, leveraging strategic partnerships or or or such a view the the necessary backing to affect the procurement process in a in a, in a clean, transparent manner that is beyond contestation, those are where the activities are. But ideas see that unfortunately, sometimes accompany with with suka. You know, I'd say 100 employees or so, we are tasked to do many things. And that is for the greater good. Sometimes you just have to do it. Because if you don't do it, it's difficult to move to the next step. And if we didn't do those things, then you wouldn't be seeing things like TT commute coming up, you wouldn't see things like employee TT, our government payment, the chatbot solutions that are being used right now. Assisting and participating in various awareness and stakeholder processes, for instance, the ICT roundtable discussions that we had, at the height of the pandemic, and just providing general awareness and support to various people through symposia, and and so on. So that is it. I think the biggest challenge, however, is that our prime customized really government, but the things that government do affects the citizens and businesses, the other stakeholders. So I think that's where a lot of the blurring happens, how much of our role in awareness should focus on on the citizen facing the business facing the gov, the MDA facing awareness? And I believe that that is something that we have to work a little bit more, and I know that we are working on it so that a lot of these Blurred Lines. Hopefully, with time should be clarified more.
It funds transfer and Shawn, moving on rather than a winner. That's the comments. Let me just hand over to Maria, you have a contribution?
Well, I want to just take this back a little bit, right. And it's a study that we did some, you know, a couple years ago on digital governance, and where the board comes in, and why some things aren't being done. And I want to put it in the context of part of what Sean said, then the end with the awareness. But he's talking about awareness at this level. Let's start with the knowledge at this level, where there is lack of knowledge, there is fear. And when there's fear, people don't want to do things. So the first thing we have to ensure is that decision makers understand, they don't have to write a program, but they have to understand how technology works, and how it can really make the transformation happen when you have people sitting down making a decision and seeing lots of chatter about young people. When I have training now, or I have discussions, my lowest level staff are involved because they know more about the technology than I do. They know what's happening out there and their contribution is significant. So we need to widen the diversification of the brain that goes into the decision making, we have to ensure that people who are making the decisions have been educated themselves to understand you can't have a vision if you don't even know what's out there. To understand that if we know what exists or if we understand what exists, then account helps us build the vision and even executing it. So I'm seeing everybody here talking about the under 30s, etc. Three quarters of my staff are 25 years old, and they sit at the dinner table and they get to share sometimes they don't have the experience and I say Okay guys, 50 years old, just have somebody who still and this is why. So I think when we talk about awareness, it goes two ways and I think broadening the minds it sets a decision making table is important if we really want Want to see transformation?
Thanks, Tommy, thanks for your contribution. Let me hand it back over to Danny with this question. And this is a question really that piggybacks off of what Sean said what Maria said in terms of that broadening the scope. So what do we need to do in order to make that happen? So it's very calculated, what would be your next steps?
I don't want to take up the floor too much, and and comment, but I noticed, you know, I'll just jump in very quickly. I'll make it quick This time, I think we need to dialogue. That's really it, we need to have an opportunity to facilitate discussion and end points. And and really come to some sort of understanding, I think that is probably in a nutshell, what what we should be doing as the immediate next step.
But also to support what Maria said, we need to be willing to dialogue. And sometimes, and this is both public and private sector. So there's no one mode or the other. You don't have sufficient, we'll definitely have that dialogue. And it's tough. For some people. It's easier, Rocky, not entity in a dialogue, because it's because it's not a real expertise. But let's hear from Rachel.
Yeah. I have to say something now, because, you know, I heard what john said just recently and what you just said, and I'm sorry to say this, but talk is cheap. It's time for somebody to come up with the Benjamins. And I'm here to tell you I've seen so many failed transcript Tran digital transformation projects in the last few years. And it's because, and George Govan, I love this. There's a lot of technical debt out there. Right. And I have clients who are trying now to use the latest and greatest products, yet they still have Windows 2000 server or Windows 2008. Service Pack one. So there's all this technical debt, we have to to address the technical debt, and spend some money doing that we have to spend money on educating people, we have to spend money on wellness, we have to spend money, it's all about money. Talk is cheap. I think the time for talk is long passed, and you need to do something. And I just wanted to circle back to to Albert Daniels. comment about burnout. There's no question. There's a lot of burnout. And you see that in a lot of these digital transformation projects where they're given unrealistic deadlines of like 18 months to put in all this new technology. But I just want to mention in Canada today, we call it Mental Health Day and planet day. And anybody who texts and uses any of the bell services, bell will donate five cents to the mental health because there is a serious mental health crisis going on in the world
right now. Good question. Yes.
Yes, I do. I have another question here. I'm gonna thank Denise Leon Thomas, for this question. And her question to everyone is who is going to conduct a needs analysis of each sector? see you smiling, nodding? Perhaps
you want to come back? Sorry, what was the
question? Pizza is from Denise alone, Thomas, is going to conduct a needs analysis of the sector's?
Again, I think we understand that means I don't think you need more paperwork. You know, I've done a lot of work for government. So what happens is they do that they get the report, and they put it on that they put it on the shelf. And then two years later comes somebody comes back and does the same thing. And they put it back on the shelf beside the other one. I think the time is to is, is now Yeah, and I thought you were asking another question, which was, how are we going to come up with the money? Well, you heard Maria talk about some places that have had certain tastic success, like Singapore, and we could pick on Dubai and and countries like that have decided to invest for the future. And so your, your your country as a whole has to invest for the future, they have to do things that incentivizes that these that were many have in innovation in companies and in your in your society. And you know, you can't do it as individuals or as individual companies, you have to do it as a society. You have to decide this is what we want to be we want to be leaders, not followers.
And but it's it's more important, what do you invest in? Yes. So So I mean, if you think of how budgets spend, spent, okay, we add goes back to the whole question around, are we spending it on the right things, how we rarely spend the time to understand the root cause of why we say the same thing. Every year over move on unless you actually solve a root cause, then you never come out of the pain that was suffering in the first place. Right? So you know, it's just like, you know, the analogies with the doctor and your body and stuff. If you if it's the wrong body part you are fixing, then you're never going to be healthy. So yeah, needs analysis. I mean, the amount of consulting and I'm a consultant, the amount of consulting reports that have been done, I'm sure we will have a whole library filled. But then what do people do with it? Right? I mean, if you look at Singapore, right, Lee Kuan Yew was a benevolent dictator. But he has died. And his policies have remained. That's when you know, you have real leadership, it's when you are gone. What you have implemented continues. So what is the root cause? can be our politics, but we won't go there. So maybe what we need is some 4030 and 40 arrows to get together and start to lead the change. So the truth is, we do have budgets, our budget is not a small budget. But we don't look at what is the root cause and where this money really needs to go. Somebody just said egos. And that's it. If you have a room of egos, the only thing is that bigger, equal annual action.
Jump on something that Maria said, I mean, it's so it's so true. And it's that and to go back to what Sean said, if you want to focus on anything in education shot, at any level, you got to start teaching critical thinking because serious, critical thinking. But to go back to one of the reasons that Singapore is so wildly successful is the mindset of the of the country, right? They get it. I mean, I remember I was struck one time when I was in Singapore, and I went into a Chinese restaurant. And what they had is they have little icons there. And each one of the iPad, this is very low tech with very, very high, high utility kind of thing. So they had an icon that was a chicken, pork or pig and a cow. And then they were different colors, right? So the different colors. So if you get a red, a red pig, that meant you want a noodles, and pork, if you got a green pig, that meant you wanted rice and corn, right? So even though they're low tech solutions, they're very, you know, very high tech in a way, right. And so you need to start adopting that kind of mentality if you want to move forward and compete in today's world.
Because there was vision, there was one man who had a great vision, and he thought about it in every little detail. And you hit it right there. And he had our education creates people who just want to do what was done before memorize a definition, but they don't know what the definition really means. I see it anywhere crazy all the time. But Maria, the Excel spreadsheet, I said, Okay, every Excel spreadsheet up, it makes no sense, common sense unless we teach people how to critically think. And again, look, we get a new root cause what are the root causes? Is our education system on unless status change, and we make innovation, like math and English, then we're never going to see innovation continuing pass, or what is it has to become possibly culture?
Absolutely. And one of the challenges we have, and this is taking a bigger government. So government is keeping traditional ways of doing things. And their perspective is they want an immediate return. So I'm actually going to spend invest in this particular sector, within a year, I want to see a return on it. It's not like that, if you invested in technology is actually going to be a long term investment, you are going to see some short term wins and so on. But the payback is in the long term isn't points in the poor in the poor didn't happen overnight. It took decades for them to get where they are today. But our government right now is very much a traditional approach the FDA operations but as the reason why we don't have a financial manager, an integrated computerized financial management system, our government as of today. Hopefully that will change soon, but we are so comfortable where we are that it takes a lot of say something significant, like COVID to try and George's off auto one. What was it normal then enter a new normal? Okay, Sanjay, come on, run some more questions.
Well, Danny, we have a lot of comments. There's a lot of subscription to the critical thinking. And while that's great to know the key bit is making that transformation to ensure That that is no manifested into the actions that we take. And this goes back to the point that Maria mentioned before, broadening that scope, so the critical thinking needs to come at all levels, and then some measure of accountability and transparency, which has been highlighted as perhaps areas that we need to build more attention to. So I wouldn't want to go too much into some of the comments mindful of time. So what I want to suggest that is perhaps you invite our panelists to make some, some closing remarks, based on, you know, discussions we've had here, so that we can ensure that we remain on time, we've got 10 more minutes.
Sure. And probably what I can ask, as a final question to lead into the candidate arm the panelists. How can we determine effective regulation in a digital world using this multi stakeholder approach? And it brings it back to the topic, and it will encompass some of your closing comments. So any one of the panelists to go through this?
Shawn, you go.
I don't know. I thought it was ladies for this. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I have a
short and sweet. Oh, God.
So you want me to take up the 10 minutes and leave you with? Right? Danny? Just repeat the question again, just because I just want to make sure I clearly answered exactly what it is you are asking again, please. And for the benefit of one or two people who just messaged us that you repeated the fabric.
Okay, sorry, how can we determine effective regulation of the digital world of doctrine, this multi stakeholder approach?
so I think the one of the key things and I mean, I said this before in many different fora, and I know that it will be a going concern. And it's not because of lack of progress. It's because even if you attain what you attain, things change. And that's sort of the premise behind our vision. It's kind of over the horizon. So I think that governance is key governance as it relates to who are the stakeholders? What are their rules? What are we trying to accomplish? How are we going to accomplish it? In a nutshell, I, I believe that that that is key. I've taken on board, a lot of the comments and I I enjoyed the conversations so far. But one thing that I want to suggest as well, is that communication, that that communication has to always be there. To me, whether it's the same message or not, that should tell you something. If it's the same message, ask yourself the question, why is it the same message? Why is it perceived that the wheel is being reinvented, as opposed to maybe getting some refurbishment, for instance, I think that speaks volumes to one of the critical elements that that needs to be had. So in general tombs, clear and effective communications are key to the multi stakeholder approach, as is the the the governance process, the governance that that specifies the process and the interactions and the interfaces between the different agents.
Good. So Maria, are you ready?
Well, the first thing I would say about the regulations is, let's not take five to 10 years to get it done. Because by the time it's done, it's already outdated. So a law that was drafted in 2006 get processed in 2018 2020. What happens is, it's already outdated. So what are we talking about? This whole stakeholder approach is not just about the content, but also having people to push it forward. And you know, somebody mentioned earlier that we have to be the actions of change. So we are the ones private and public sector, every citizen has to come forward and see, this is the better for me, we go on Facebook to talk about all kinds of foolishness in this country. But instead, why don't we push for the things that need to be done to help you transformation? That's all we have to be the activists. We have to be the ones that says this education system is not working for us. We have to push to change but we All very complacent. So I think we meet for me, my little pet peeve with the regulations is less 95 and 10 years to pass this, we need to be more agile, we need to push things forward, and we need to do it now. So my message is, now is a great place to start. You don't need to reinvent the wheel, as Sean said, all we need to do, and we don't need to copy exactly what was done that does not suit our environment. Right? We are different, our makeup is different, our size is different. What we need to do is look at what works best for our environment and just do it.
Good. And we don't necessarily need to reinvent what has been successful elsewhere once if applicable.
so, you know, as I've listened to this discussion, the things that are coming out of our mouths, I'm struck by a few things. One is, is that, you know, yes, the government's in most locations are putting things online, but I don't consider that a transformational act, if you want. The government has to re engineer itself and consider what is its vision for serving the people that, you know, of the countries that that you and I are both in? Because if we keep doing I think it was Albert Einstein, you know, doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So if we keep doing the same thing over and over again, and then wondering why we're getting the same results, like we're asking for the same result. And I and I just want to add what you said, and Danny said or say, put Danny said and Maria said was it at the end of the day, it comes down to leadership. And it comes down to as I said before, it comes down to the Benjamins, somebody has to cough up some money. And I think about a month inside when we have these kinds of discussions. I don't know if you've ever heard the old joke about commitment and involvement. And think about your breakfast. Okay, so you're having bacon and eggs while the chicken was involved, but the pig was committed. We need commitment. And usually, commitment is demonstrated by money.
Good. Awesome. Hey, soundless. Hello. For the wonderful deliberations. There's so much more to be said. And I have pages of notes as we were talking. But I have to understand that I am a moderator. I'm not an analyst. And a lot of things that you said, Peter, that relates to the Canadian environment actually exists in Canada. What we are not effective at using or utilizing these mechanisms that exists. Yes, it takes too long to pass legislation and you're after lm T's required regulation. The world doesn't stop tuning. We have to appreciate that. So Peter, Maria. And Sean, thank you very much for your contributions this morning. As I said, a lot of what we are seeing here is opening the doors. The other panelists actually start addressing specific items. And our next session is really related to cyber security, which will be conducted by George Coburn, who is up again in an infant's token advocacy, cyber security, not only in Trinidad, but within the region. Sounds pretty much the panelists and you will have been gracious enough to join us at this important IGF. And I'll relate a point that Albert made talk about ICANN and multi stakeholder approach. And having attended a few of the ICANN annual sessions. So I'm amazed that the approach works, what it does. So we have to bear in mind they are successful. entities that appear have adopted the most eco approach and appy succeeding with it. Internet Society is one, ICANN is another one. Let's learn from them and move forward. So thank you very much, Peter. And we look forward to ongoing discussions with you or at some other forum or otherwise. So I'll hand it back to Denise UDM