Today's episode is sponsored by Feather. Feather provides digital marketing tools and strategies for nonprofits of all shapes and sizes, including the Humane Society of North Central Florida. Stick around for the break to hear how feathers power, their $300 digital ad campaign that raised nearly $6,000 In just one day. Hey, I'm John.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the we are for good podcast.
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I know, we have Paul de lasondra on today. And I have to just share a little bit about the time that I first met Paul, and had one of the most mind blowing 45 minute conversations with someone who is a CFRE fundraiser, has his JD as an attorney, and is also a member of the Supreme Court of the United States. John, did you know people like this existed in our industry, and even better, I understood him. And I have to just say that I'm married to an attorney. So I feel like I have a little bit of a license to say this. But I have a hard time understanding attorneys in our sector, they are at such a higher level. They understand legalese. They're the ones that are helping us put together these really complicated giving structures, whether it's with charitable remainder trusts, or if we're putting together life insurance policies. But Paul is like the the end all be all he wears all the hats. And he was so incredibly progressive, and his modernization and his forward thinking lens on where nonprofit needs to go and the avenues by which we need to go. Were so compelling to me. And so I want to give our listeners just a little bit of background on Paul. He's the founder of high impact nonprofit advisors. And I think it's just an incredible organization that's doing fundraising and strategic management consulting, and he's got 30 years of experience in the sector. So he's been in the sector as a fundraiser. He's worked as an attorney. And I just really value the way that he challenges the sector in a lot of ways. And he is elevating the game. He wrote the most progressive book, I'm holding it up if you're looking at the video right now, called The Future of fundraising that we're going to be talking about today. And I'm just telling you, if you guys fall in love with Paul in, in this episode in the way I did in the first 45 minutes, this is going to be a treat for you. So Paul, welcome to the show. We're so delighted you're here.
I'm really excited to be here. It's just great being with you guys. It's just fun stuff in the sector. So thank you so much for inviting me.
Absolutely. And I you have such an interesting personal story and interesting professional story. And we want to go back to like little Paulie growing up, like, let us get to know you. Where did you grow up? How did you fall into this sector? And what led you here today?
That's a great question. Paul grew up in born in Brooklyn, raised in Jersey, so I'm a Jersey boy. My friends back home call me Pauly D. I got I got Polly DS corner. Yeah, so that works out. Well. I wanted to be a fighter pilot and at a party. When I was like, 10, or something, my dad said, What do you want to do that there's no home life. He said, You You talk so much, you should be a lawyer. And never thought again, that there's anything else that I should be. So I went to law school, I hated it, actually. Lots of reading, a lot of writing. And so and a lot of technical stuff. And it was always about the exception. So I started I wanted to consulting with Deloitte, after law school after I worked in tax court for a year, oddly enough, I really liked the tax law. But then I did tax consulting with Deloitte. And so I got a letter from Notre Dame said, hey, you know where you got an off? We've got an office opening up in Palm Beach. And we think you'd be really great as a fundraiser on a campaign. I didn't know what a fundraiser was. I didn't want to campaign was, but I knew where Palm Beach was. And it's sold. I sold I got down there. And the theory was, there's a lot of money coming into Florida. And what I found is the money comes to Florida, and it leaves Florida. I was back in 86. So I got into fundraising. And then I really liked it. I said, I'm going to fit I'm going to meet everybody who's got all this money and then whatever. When I meet somebody who's doing Like, the really coolest thing and is really happy and making a ton of money. I'm going to go do that. But I never met that person. So that was you. Yeah, no, I'm still fundraising. But it's been an amazing journey and experience. I've met some incredible people won't
why? Well, I love that you can just channel that experience because I think that when Becky was so effusive after she met you, I mean, you have written this really breakthrough book that speaks to this very moment. I think you've channeled your experience your life growing up into this very moment to be able to speak to what's happening. And what's the mindset that's happening today in today's donors? Would you kind of dive into that today and kind of give us paint the picture for it?
Sure. So kind of the the inception of the book happened about four years ago at a conference and I met some guys that boodle AI was a startup. And they were talking about artificial intelligence and machine learning. And I was like, really fascinated like that. I'm like, What is what's happening in this sector right now? Because going into a lot of meetings, AFP and, and other conferences, it was kind of the same old, same old and everybody's looking at past data to talk about what's happening in the future. But really, it's not really a good predictor of what happens in the future. I mean, if you just look at it, you would say, well, we're raising more and more money. Well, that's great. But there's also more and more charities, and people have more and more money. So are we really doing great stuff. So but my started looking, where's the trends and the trends were Tech Tech Tech, you know, you have engineers in this space. But I also noticed that, you know, because I'm a lawyer. And because I'm a fundraiser, and I have my own business, there's a lot of different confluences of things that were happening. And those things included donor privacy and laws that happened. And when the recent court case went to Supreme Court, it had to do a blockchain and cryptocurrency and the different avenues of how people are giving. And then, you know, what is the role of a fundraiser? And how can artificial intelligence make a difference? So just a quick story, I was at a another conference and someone from ALS spoke after the bucket list. And they said, you know, we teamed up with MasterCard in one day, they looked at all the data from the bucket list, challenge, all the names that went in, and they were able to tell us who our best donors were one day, you know, we're, you know, the past, we would spend, you know, hours and hours and days trying to find the best people. So, there's a lot that's happening and transitioning right now in the space. And donors. That was my last chapter driving the change on it, because they're so far ahead. And nonprofits right now, it's not funny. So that was the inception of the book. And it kind of price it really low, just so people could say, to awaken themselves to what's going on in the space and awaken their boards just stop talking about the same old stuff.
It's just such a fascinating book. And after we got off the call, I ordered it immediately. And I find you so interesting. You are you're such a Rubik's cube to me, because you have this legalese background, you have this fundraising background, but you have this just undeniable curiosity about innovation, and tech. And this book I want to talk about, it's called The Future of fundraising. But the sub, the subheading on it, which I love so much is how philanthropies future is here with donors dictating the terms and you go into things like you've already talked about AI, but the impact of donor advised funds and Kryptos. In this. My favorite chapter, we're gonna dive into it in a little bit is the dirty little secrets about fundraiser compensation. And I want you to talk about, you know, what inspired you to write this book, and how are donors starting to dictate those terms of fundraising today?
Well, you know, as, because I'm a kind of a different kind of fundraising consultant, it's not, you know, just go in, hey, this is how it gets done. Let me know how you make out. I'm really, and I've enjoyed having the donor meetings, I've, you know, I always put my biographical stuff. I've been on over 4000 solicitation calls, and I have, but that has informed me, and it's about what donors are thinking and how they're behaving and what they like about not fundraisers, and more. So what they don't like about fundraisers than the behaviors of fundraisers in terms of relationships with respect to all of that, it gave me an insight of, okay, where's this this space go? And do we really even need a nonprofit to raise money? So when I get approached by a social impact investment company that says, We'd like you to help us raise money and here's the way it's going to work? And here's the percentage of comp you're going to get for funding the money because it's an ROI. Or, you know, when I talked to donors say, you know, what, we don't really want to go through a nonprofit. We've created a business that helps people in prisons, let's say, to build things, and itself generates revenue and that able to sustain them and grow because they don't care about the profit. And that's really important. So people want to do good. It's the means in which they're going to do to get there. So we've got to this transition nonprofits away, tax deductibility. Well, maybe that's not so important. Some people have a lot of money, but then you have L, three C's and B, corpse, and social good corporations, and social impact investing, we're gonna find a way to solve problems globally. But it might not necessarily be through nonprofits. And one of the other things was, I was watching TV one day, and I saw this thing for ocean. I don't know if you guys just seen it on TV, you know, they, they rake up plastic in the ocean is and, and they read, they make bracelets out of it, and they resell it. And I thought, wow, that's, but it wasn't a nonprofit, it was just a business. And there's so many businesses out there that people aren't aware of that do good like that, generate a profit and it feeds back in to help other people. And I have so many stories that I could talk to you about like that.
Well, I mean, we definitely want to hear him because I think this has been a theme definitely this season. But I think we geek out on this all the time that it feels like we're solving for the wrong thing. If we don't look past and say it doesn't have to be solved, just through charity, it's not going to be solved just through charity or nonprofit, it's going to take a lot of different people approaching it, and probably doing in a much more efficient or more community based way than what it would be if it just had to stay in this one lane. So I love that you're speaking there. Do you want to share an example of top your head?
Well, you know, I'm just, you know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about donor advised funds, because, you know, there's there's good and evil of donor advised funds. And, you know, I was at a conference in July last year in Colorado, and I met a gentleman who put his business in a donor advised fund. And in the last 30 years, that donor advised funds, given his company has given away $500 million, that donors are advised funds. But then there's a lot of people who saw an opportunity to assets under management through a donor advised fund and there's a lot of parked assets that aren't really going to the US. So the federal government at some point, and there's legislation that's being considered that would cause people to give it out over a certain period of time. That's just one example that comes to my mind.
I really love that we're having this conversation around innovation. And one of the things that I really agreed with that you said in your book was that if nonprofit doesn't continue to radically innovate, not just the way that we do our business, but the way that we are showing up the way that we are compensating our people, the way that we're pouring into tech, these donors are actually going over into the social impact organizations, these B corpse and they're investing there, because they can see the ROI is moving much more quickly. It's much more transparent, they're able to use the tech and see how it's actually able to fuel the mission forward. So I would just love your thoughts on that, as we're starting to get into the innovation part of this conversation.
Well, I had an interesting conversation with a tech company, I'm constantly talking to the tech companies, because you know, they're putting billions of dollars into this sector with the conversation went like, well, we some nonprofits, not a lot, but there have data science teams for debt, you know, on staff. So it you know, it's bad enough to talk to a board right now and a nonprofit, say, you know, you really got to invest in your team, they need a prospect research tool, and I can name a whole bunch of companies, but you know, they nickel and dime things. And meanwhile, they can innovate and grow and take care of the demand and the need that's out there, when artificial intelligence can solve a lot of those problems. And, you know, I think we've gotten this trend from working in a silo to solve like a nonprofits issue to global issues like climate change, and poverty, housing, Habitat for Humanity, which is been a client of ours was a client of ours. You know, they address poverty housing, but you know, it's a global agenda item for the United Nations. And so now we're seeing how do we attack these things globally, and so one nonprofit can't solve it. And there's plenty of money out in the world to do things. I mean, that's, that's really not the issue. We have the money, it's just that we have it's too many people out there trying to raise money for too many things that aren't consolidated. And I go into consolidation and mergers in the book, because that needs to happen as well.
Well, why is that such like a dirty word of like, merging, and we've talked about it sometimes on the podcast,
you know, it has to do with I think ownership. And you know, back in the late 80s, or 90s, there were a lot of mergers and acquisitions going on in corporate in the corporate world, and I was in this sector. And you know, it kind of I kind of looked at us like why is there not any mergers and acquisitions, all we're doing is adding more and more and more nonprofits but like nine to the same nonprofits and one city I mean, I had a gentleman call me up it was, I think it was crisis pregnancy centers and he said, You know, I'm on the board of One because we're competing with eight others, you know what she do I sit demerge because you're, you're duplicating services and everything like that. So what happened, I think in the past is nonprofits didn't think they were businesses. And they said, well, we don't need to do that. And they didn't behave like that. And they didn't have a business mindset. But if you don't have a business mindset, running a nonprofit now, and try and find a way to generate revenue, aside from asking people for money, then you got a big problem coming up in the future. And you know, survivability may be a big issue for you, I wrote an article for nonprofit Pro on the impending nonprofit crash. But those who are progressive, and doing the right things are going to survive, those aren't. They're just going to disappear. And that's going to be the bottom bottom third, and nonprofits.
I feel like you're speaking our words back to us, we just had a trends that we were unpacking for 2022. And one of them is nonprofits have to think like a business. I mean, this is this is an enterprise, we have got to figure out a way to make sustainable revenue, that not only just grow the bottom line, but we've got to grow our missions. These are big and heavy world problems, I think of a really successful merger of two organizations we had on the podcast back in season one, with feeding Tampa Bay and Trinity cafe, they were both in the middle of the pandemic, trying to feed hungry people in Tampa, and realize somebody had the food and somebody had the space. And so they got together to merge their boards. And guess what they were more powerful than ever, because they weren't having to compete, not only for, you know, to your point, all of the same elements and programs, but they're not having to compete for the dollars as well, because they're all under one roof. So I want to talk about like these innovations, because I thought that you had so many in your book that were so great. You talked about AI, which we've already talked about blockchain, das social impact investing, like talk a little bit about which one's your favorite. And if there are nonprofits who are listening right now, what are one or two things that they could take away from maybe one or two of these options?
Well, you know, definitely artificial intelligence, because the machine learning happens so rapidly. And I think at some point, I once said the fundraisers will be extinct. But that, you know, I was corrected, because there's the machine learning and then human learning. And all the data is really great. But if you don't have somebody that knows how to talk to another human being, you've got a problem. But there's biases in the machine learning. And that's another problem that we have. So but artificial intelligence is really helps us identify who the best people are, I mean, they create personas of who would be inclined to give to your organization, based on what you typically think that is, but also, you know, I go back to boards, you know, the boards really need to understand the importance of investing. And in the artificial intelligence piece of it. The other thing that I was thinking about is at some point, because everything is tracked these zeta bytes of information, I foresee, at some point in the future, you could take the say, $5,000, and put it in a fund. And then the artificial intelligence will look at the things that you buy, you know, you know, if you go to church, or go church work, where you live, and you know, if you have a pet, let's say, and they'll say, well, in your area, there are these five or six charities, and you have $5,000. And based on their financials and metrics, which is all online, then this is how your $5,000 should be distributed. And so people will say, like, I don't need to have anybody come ask me, my, my artificial intelligence tells me exactly where my money should go based on the metrics. And so that could happen eventually, too. And so this whole thing about spending time with, you know, Hey, who do we know who's, you know, who could invest in our organization, those conversations are gonna go by the wayside in the near term.
I mean, I'm ready to usher in that era, because I hate that that's the default way of just like trying to use favors or something like that, to even get in the door. So I just love that it's kind of brings it back all this points to me of like getting really clear about what you're trying to accomplish through your mission, getting agnostic about how it's gonna get done, and getting people that actually believe in it, you know, they actually want to align with you to make it happen. Like I think all that's pointing through this, the fact that tech may can speed that up. But it all comes back to some core truths of what will make this a lot better and stronger as an industry, I believe.
And you know, it's going to make nonprofits even more accountable on you know, with their metrics, sometimes we measure things inappropriately, and that becomes a guiding point for our behavior. And that for me, not necessarily means that that's the best nonprofit.
I'll give an example of that. What do you mean by that? Well, like
I'm working with a nonprofit in Colorado and it's got a Charity Navigator. rating. That's Not great, but they do amazing, amazing work, but it's just because of where they putting their money and, and how all that data goes into charity navigators model so people are trying to be they want that five star rating from Charity Navigator. But does that really mean that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing? I mean, it's it's hard to know that
you're poking the bear bringing this up with me.
I mean, I really liked the folks Charity Navigator and they're based in New Jersey too, and, and they do good things but you know, their fundraising too. So to you know, sustain their business, but is that the best that we could do is Dun and Bradstreet, Charity Navigator, be wise, you know, are all those things? The penultimate measure of the success of a nonprofit? I don't think so.
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We've got to have talent, you know, we lose people all the time people talk about turnover in this space all the time. There's a lot of different reasons for it. But just on that last point, I mean, I got an argument with a board member is a lawyer on the board. And you know, we were talking about my fees, my fees were less than 10% of whatever they're gonna raise we you know, I'm not working on a percentage base. But it always comes down to that, you know, like, people want to say, well, how much what percentage are you going to raise? Or what percentage is that going to cost us? And I said, he was a lawyer, I said, there's nothing that says you could can't spend more than 10%. But he got he got stuck in that silo of we're getting into trouble Nobody's going to give to us. And I'm like, I've never heard that before. It's the same argument of people saying, well, we can't pay bonuses or incentive comp, you know, it's illegal. And I'm like, Who says it's illegal? An Association of Fundraising Professionals came up with a code of conduct and they said, we don't think this is ethical. But that was a model based on something that was set up 40 years ago. And that hasn't changed.
I would love to go deeper on the comp. It's it's not comparable to for profit jobs in a lot of ways. And it's like, we need a hard reset on this. Would you talk about nonprofit compensation? What are you really challenging the industry to look at in that and how do we kind of have those conversations?
Well, you know, I've gotten a lot of, you know, a lot of nonprofits, you know, who have smaller budgets like they kind of self some of them, the bigger ones self destruct, but the smaller ones are Like, well, we can't really afford to hire a good major gifts person, or we can't really afford to hire the staff, you know, because we got to, we got to adhere to the guidelines of, of one of the charity navigators of the world. And we just don't want to run afoul of that. But that causes a lot of problems getting right the right people. So then what happens is, then you hire somebody who doesn't have all that they need. And then that person, you know, doesn't have any experience. And then you live with them for two or three years, and nothing gets accomplished. And that's why I say, you know, it's easy to count how much money you raise, it's really hard to count how much money you got left on the table, because you didn't invest in the right person. But it's a really good fundraiser cost a lot of money. So we did help the search at a organization in New York, they hired a major gift person with three years experience $95,000 Starting salary. So when these people want to spend 6070 and $80,000 for major gift officers like well, we're just kicking the tires on something. But as far as comp goes, incentive comp, you know, we've worked with clients that pay incentive comp that pay bonuses, but it's not like you raised $10,000, you get 1000 bucks. It's set on a standard like business. Do we did the organization meet his overall budgetary goals? Yes. Did the development team or you as a development officer meet your your goals and targets? Because a lot of development nurses don't even have metrics tied to them? How many people did you see how much money did you raise? And then lastly, how did you do and how did you perform, and then that money goes into pot may charity, now charity water's got a great model, they had a bunch of for profit companies put money in I mentioned this in the book it to a pool, you know, so that the exec can then distribute, you know, bonuses out to the team. There's a lot of creative ways. And if someone's telling you that nonprofits aren't paying bonuses and incentives, the hospitals and the universities, then they're flat out wrong, because I see it all the time. We had one client, they had somebody $50,000 They started this Katie's young man, he did amazing. He hit blew out his targets, he got a $50,000 bonus, he made $100,000 You don't think he's incentive to go out and do more? Everybody was?
Yeah, and I think to you, it's it's not just the loss if you hire the wrong person, it's also like the time you know, because building relationships takes such a long runway. So this is a decision that can set you back for years, you know, if you really make the cheap shot and hire the wrong person,
I gotta give some stats on this, because I found it to be very interesting. And in some of them, I think we know, you know, you talk a lot about, you know, the average tenure of a fundraiser, like a frontline fundraiser is 16 to 18 months, that the cost of the organization when they leave John, what do you think it would be?
I don't know. I mean, some multiple Yeah,
like $50,000 or so $127,650? Is what you have in your book. Is it more than that now?
Yeah, it is. I mean, I'll just give you that. I mean, because there's so many stories, I had a client, gentleman who was making $50,000 He's raised a million dollars a year for the charity. He asked for $20,000 Raise. The exec said, No, he left. He had all the relationships. They lost $40,000, the next year, and the next year, and the next year, because they couldn't find somebody who is as well liked as Jimmy, my friend, Jimmy. And so you know, people make these mistakes. Because they're not thinking like a business. And it's in part of the other issue is you have execs who are underpaid. And so I and so I'll tell the exec what you got to pay this commander woman, you know, 150,000 Well, that's more than I make. I know, that's part of the problem. So the execs need to get paid more to. But if you want to if you consider fundraisers, like a salesperson is like business where the sales people make a lot more money than the CEO.
Yeah, and I want to make sure that we're not just talking about fundraisers here because I think our back is sharp house, I think our donor relations teams, all of them are positively integral to closing the gift, uh, you know, on the front line, and so I want you to give some practical tips to to people because if you're feeling heavy right now listening to this saying, Yes, I agree with you. But Paul, Becky, John, I can't get my board to see us as anything more than an overhead you know, cost what can I do because it's going to take some conversation some socialization of this what can people do right now to start start this conversation and start moving toward fighting for equity in our pay?
Yeah, well, you know, if you're a fundraiser or a staff, you know, line you know, I would come up with a plan and show them that what you could do as a team and then start you know, either the execs presents it but you know, doesn't necessarily get it need to be approved by the board. I don't know I don't I don't think so. But come up with or even higher, you know, you have a better you have benefits up consultants out there, have somebody come in and talk to your team, you know, you don't need an HR person sitting on your board, you know, to do it. But there's, there's, you've got to present an opportunity of how much better things could be part of the problem is, you might have people on staff, you paid what they're worth, and I say this respectfully to everybody. But if you want to change it up a little bit and get better people, if you need better people, then you know, you're going to have to try and find a way to retain and attract them. I just heard a story in the news the other day, and I don't know where it might have been in Tennessee, but they added this restaurant, edit a tip line for the kitchen staff. So now they have a tip line for the waiter. And they have a tip line for the backroom people. And so and then the company is matching, that they're keeping everybody, everybody's happy, everybody's motivated. And I think, you know, we're gonna get to that place because watch what makes businesses successful. That's what's gonna make your nonprofit successful.
Yeah, and it's all points to like, leaning in thinking innovatively thinking, like a business and, and not not changing, you know, so I think that, can you help us land the plane on embracing innovative cultures? You know, we feel like culture is everything. How can nonprofits tactically start to try some of these things that we're throwing out today and stepping into this? Maybe if they're scared, maybe if they don't feel like they have the support? Where do you begin,
you know, I've done you know, I do a lot of reading. And I try and keep up with things that are different than what I would typically read. So you know, I'll read the chronicle of funds, they'll read Stanford Social Innovation Review, I'll go to conferences that, you know, aren't in my space. So I mean, how many times you need to go to a conference to find out what a major gift is how to make a major gift, they ask, you know how to do a capital campaign, you can read all that stuff online, or just call me up? I'll tell you, you know. So to innovate, you need to broaden and educate yourself. Beyond what you see is just fundraising. So when I look at this, you know, the law is important donor privacy, you have to be on top of what the donor privacy laws are, and cybersecurity, and are you compliant with the data that you have? And they were, I think, a sock compliance and all those sorts of things. And then you have to be understand about a business and how you compensate people? And where are the opportunities there? And then understanding tech and how tech could enhance, you know, do your fundraising. I mean, I've got about a list about 20 tech companies that I that I like, and then that I refer things to, but a lot of my clients when I talk to them about well, you know, there's this company here that does this, I've never heard of that there's company that does that. And some of them don't even have a prospect research tool on hand. I mean, one of my clients calls it my little I Spy machine. But you know, so it's really embracing the totality of what your activity is, and how you're affected, because donors ask hard questions, and you have to be up to speed on on all those things. And yes, because you know more, you're going to be attracted to other nonprofits who want you, I don't think just, you know, the old time where you took a football coach and put them into development office, because he knew a lot of people and raise money isn't going to work anymore. You need somebody who knows their way around social fundraising platforms, for you know, subscription philanthropy, they need to understand the whole gamut of where money comes from, and it comes in, it's not just someone writing a check anymore. It comes in from all different sources, I got one client they've got, they put a cute QR code on the outside of their envelope and the giving, so they could just Venmo it, they're giving one up like 50%
It's just those little things that you talk a lot in the book just about, you have to diversify that revenue, you cannot just stay in the grant Lane in the event lane or, or even to the major gift prospect, you can't have just, you know, four or five major gift prospects. So, you know, one of the things that I really appreciate about what you're saying is, you know, that you have to get the right data. You know, I feel like I'm gonna share a story really quickly, just as we're talking about compensation. But I remember when John and I were up for raises in our last health care organization and our organization, God loved them. We're, you know, it's a 10,000, employee health care organization. We were a 10 person shop within that huge corporate robot. And so what did they do to do a market analysis on our salaries, they start looking at health care, or they start looking at nonprofit organizations all around us. Well, we're a billion dollar organization and we couldn't be compared to March of Dimes, you know, which is an amazing organization, but it only had two people, you know, running a really small shop and not pulling in the same revenue that we were pulling in. And to me, this is not a slam again against the HR teams, but you need to Find somebody who understands nonprofit who understands thinking like a business, who understands thinking innovatively, because if you want to have the best fundraisers, people who stay for a very long time, they feel like they are in a vibrant culture, that they are invested in, that they have value and they are cherished. Those are the people, we want to stay long term. And if you're going to do a basic market analysis, you're not going to be paying people anywhere near what they could bring in, if you gave them the runway to literally soar.
You know, one thing that I think we talked about earlier that I want to circle back to is just this idea that today's donor has a different mindset than they've ever had before. And I wanted to give you a chance to kind of share what your research your findings, your experiences led you to see. But really curious about what is different than maybe what we had seen in the last couple of decades. What's the mindset happening today?
Well, the mindset was, there was an entity, it was a nonprofit, you wrote a check, you send some money in and the nonprofit did some good. But now some of these donors have so much money, that maybe the tax deductibility doesn't even matter to them. All they want to do is have an impact in the world. You know, I say my theme for my life's thing is I want to empower people to go out and have an impact on the world. I think, you know, we were created not for ourselves, but to help others. And so a donor who has resource is going to find a way to help others. And if it's not getting it done by a nonprofit, they're smart enough to say, Well, I think I'm just going to start a business, I'm going to, I'm going to start a coffee shop that generates revenue that's going to feed the homeless. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's self sustaining the business. And so the donor mindset is, are nonprofits keeping up with the needs in society? And are they ability able to get it done? And when they see the turnover? And when they see some of the behaviors? They're like, No, it's just not moving fast enough for me. And that's an a, you know, goes back to the whole thing about a board. You know, we the laws said that you need to have a board. But in today's society, because we have so much accountability and metrics and oversight, do you really even need I challenge the notion of whether you even need to have a board of governance to help you make decisions? Because that takes that slows the whole process down?
I'm telling you, Pauly D is shaking things up? Well, you know,
you got to look at the root of how these things started. So we have so many metrics and so much technology, and all that data could go in there. Do you really need oversight from a governing body that really now you're looking for to have people in there so that they can raise money for you?
I think it's a big question about oversight versus who's just advising. But if, you know, there's some great working boards out there of people who are pouring into solicitations, stewardship, volunteerism, events, and we want to keep those people connected, because they make our story rich, richer, and they make the family bigger, which I think is great. And so I just really like this concept around the modern 21st century donor. And I just, I fear, here I am. Now I'm just on my chaise lounge in the therapist room trying to talk about my fears, but I fear what will happen to the nonprofit who doesn't innovate, you know, in the next five years, because we're watching boomers who love the stuff, the old style, many of them love the old style of fundraising, and they like to be courted in the way that they are. But it just doesn't meet the modern moment for a lot of the millennials and the Gen Zers. And they're gonna want more dynamic interaction, they're gonna want more content, they're gonna want to see more actual impact to you know, whether that's on a video or text to them. And I think that this overwhelms a lot of nonprofit that we're moving so heavily into digital, and I just say it to anyone that's listening and feeling this, start small, but start somewhere,
there's no trend for money going directly to the end user. And that's what blockchain will do. But you know, there's different cultures that money goes like if somebody needs money to get fed, they send the money to that person instead. And you know, we're gonna see more and more that I think, like there's a Gen Z and the millennials, the average gift to crypto comes from that group and the average gift is $10,000 worth of crypto. The difference is that it's anonymous. So now we're coming into a new place where money that crypto is coming into nonprofit. So they don't even know unless that they say, Hey, I sent you money, because they don't care about I want my name on anything.
I mean, it's an exciting time and I just think you know, your career has just had all these inputs and all have these moments? Is there a moment of philanthropy that's really stuck with you? I, we asked this because we just deeply believe in it. You know, like, day after day, we've seen how flythrough changes people. And so I'm curious, one story that maybe it stopped you in your tracks.
You know, there's it really started. I mean, we've gotten from nothing, you know, $50 gifts to $100 million gift. And it was when I was working with the University of Notre Dame, and you know, there's always stewardship events, and there was an annual fund at the time, I think it was $1,000 donors, which, you know, I'm in my late 20s, I guess. And, you know, we're doing a bus tour campus. And I just said to one of the women, I said, So what made you decide to join the Soren society and she said, you know, the school has meant so much to my son, that I took a job cleaning houses so that I could be a member, and give back to the university. And that always stuck to me, because, you know, it's kind of the story of the widow's mite, she gave from her poverty, not from her wealth and some of those gifts, I have countless gifts of people sacrificially giving, because they really cared. But that kind of set the tone for what I was looking for, you know, a lot of people make big gifts, but they never miss it, it doesn't affect their life. But some people make gifts, and the family, the whole family sacrifices to make a difference in somebody else's life. And that that means a lot to me.
And I just have to think in some ways, they're richer, because of the experience. And that's the power of philanthropy to me is that it has the potential to dramatically impact the beneficiary, but also the user, or the giver. And I think that the opportunity that exists for nonprofit is to come into the space between and just say, here's the story that's happened as a result of this person giving to this person. And that's what we want to hear. And I think we're all just looking for something good right now something to celebrate, how do we take that moment, you know, of, of creating a connection and an emotion that strong? And how do we replicate it. And that's what I love about story. And I so appreciate you sharing that, you know, Paul, we end all of our podcasts with a one good thing and I'm wondering, what would be your one good thing that you would offer up to our audience today.
It's hard, it's hard work. But you got to have a kind of a servant's heart for it. So the one good thing is to kind of have to stick with it, because you can't see some of the rewards that will come to you and a lifetime of doing this work. I've met some amazing people that I would have never met. I mean, and of course I'd been. And I say this I've been, I've had tea in the House of Lords. I was in Parliament and met Desmond Tutu and sitting presidents and I never thought I'd find myself in those places. But then I've met some of the I've met some of the richest of the rich, and the poorest of the poor. And I've and I've been able to get a broader understanding of what this world is all about, and how to build a bridge between those who don't have anything like right after the earthquake in Haiti, to those who have so much and are totally, totally depressed and sad, you know? So I just say stick with it, but have a servant's heart with it. This isn't about you, it's about them.
What an awesome way to end this conversation because I don't know it lights a fire in me, there's this special space that we get to inhabit in serving on the front lines of admission or behind the scenes of admission or just being connected as a donor like it is sacred ground. And it's really incredible, we get to be part of. Okay, so Paul, how can people connect with you? Where do you hang out online? When you're not writing books and tell us how to get your book, by the way, too?
You know, it's, um, it's on Amazon, you know, they can email me at Paul at high impact nonprofit.com
Well, I just really appreciate the way that your curiosity is really fueling innovation in our sector. So thanks for coming in. I just tell everybody, please can check out the future of fundraising. There is some really forward thinking and challenging insight in there. I absolutely love the book. And someday I want you to sign it when we meet in person my friend. Thanks, Paul. So much, Paul.
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