101. Negotiation: A Four Step Process with Dr. Claire Ellerbrock
4:56PM Mar 30, 2022
...record. So we are recording. Hello, Claire, welcome to the show.
Hello, thank you so much for having me, Amanda.
Of course it is my pleasure. I am excited to chat, you and I have chatted before. And we decided together that, you know, we needed to have a conversation about this topic, not behind closed doors, but rather on the podcast for everyone to listen to.
Absolutely. I'm excited to be here and to talk all things negotiation.
So before we dive into that topic, I would love for you to share a little bit more about who you are what you do, and introduce yourself in your own words. And we'll go from there.
Yeah, so my name is Claire Ellerbrock. I am a psychiatric nurse practitioner. And I currently live in Columbus with my husband. I've been a psych NP for four years and an RN for the past seven years, which is wild to say because it feels like the time has just flown by.
And I want to know more about kind of like your - your origin story as - as a nurse, so you know how you got into the field. And then how and when you decided to pursue becoming an NP.
Yeah, so I didn't always know I wanted to be a nurse. I have an undergraduate bachelor's degree in psychology. And in college, I was always interested in human behavior and the mind and just how the mind is treated so distinctly from the body despite them being attached. And initially, I thought I wanted to pursue a career in research. I had spent several years in college working as a research assistant in the school's department of psychology. And it was my senior year of college that I was realizing I wanted to have more interaction with others and wanted to have more face to face direct interactions with people. And that kind of led me to nursing. And so I finished my bachelor's degree, I moved from St. Louis, to Cleveland, and I did an accelerated Bachelor of Arts to a BSN equivalent Direct Entry Program. And it was during my nursing school clinical rotations that I really sort of gravitated towards my - my psych rotation, I really felt comfortable I felt at home there. And when I graduated from nursing school, instead of following the recommended path of doing at least one year in Med-Surg, I sort of jumped right over to psych. I knew that's where I - I wanted to be. And so I spent a couple years working on inpatient behavioral health unit. I then went on to get my MSN to become a psych NP. And my first job was working for two years in a community mental health setting. And I learned a lot about this job, I gained a lot more self confidence and competence in prescribing. It was definitely a steep learning curve, entering practice. But after that job, I sort of pivoted into the addiction field. Actually, my collaborating psychiatrist at my first job was working in an outpatient substance use disorder treatment clinic, and he recommended that I come on board. So I worked a little bit, working as a dual diagnosis provider treating both addiction and mental health. And I learned a lot about addiction in this role, and just how prevalent substance use disorders are among us. While working here, I - I decided to open my own brick and mortar private practice and a small caseload of patients. A part of my desire to start my own practice was just wanting a bit more control over the types of patients I saw, the amount of time I had with patients and being able to just really provide quality patient care. And so while I was doing that, I went back to school and was working on my DNP. And just kind of juggling a couple of different things. With doing all that I had to let my practice go after a little over a year. But as time progressed, I became a bit more curious about what mental health treatment looks like in other - other states and what other patient populations look like. And that's what led me to travel nursing. And so I became a travel nurse practitioner doing what's called locum tenens work. And I just finished an assignment in northern Wisconsin, working with an American Indian population, the Ojibwe tribe on a tribal clinic, funded through the Indian Health Services, and it was really neat experience learning about another culture but I had been struggling a little bit with - with kind of burnout right before then. And that was unexpectedly kind of - kind of renewed. I just felt a bit more refreshed after this assignment and kind of reminded myself of why I love what I'm doing. And so I've certainly had a lot of different experiences getting to where I am, but I will now be working as a long term tele-health provider for clinic and I also have a business on the side where I help mps enter practice successfully. And so that's a bit about my background.
I love it. I love it. And, you know, I think it's a good example, you mentioned that you gravitated towards your, your psych rotation in nursing school. For me personally, I also learned something about my psych rotation, which is that I did not gravitate towards that field. But I think that it's a great example of how sometimes certain specialties or certain practice areas just fit and they just suit us well, whether it's because of previous interests that we have, or because of the certain, you know, flow or nature of the specialty. And that's, - I don't prescribe to the, you know, everyone needs to start in Med-Surg for that very reason. And I think that you're a good testament to that of, you know, you've had a lot of experiences, but it seems to have been a very progressive pathway where everything has really built on the thing that came before even - even your - your undergraduate work, which was - your non nursing undergraduate work was in psychology. So I just, I love that kind of common thread and that common progression that's brought you to where you are now, it's, it's really lovely story.
Yeah, it really wasn't intentional, it was just kind of following what was interesting to me. And for whatever reason, I just didn't feel the pressure to kind of do what was needed. I just, I knew I wanted to work with a certain population in setting and I just felt very at home and comfortable working in Psych. And so that's when he brought up that I guess I did have an undergraduate experience in this area also in it. Looking back, it makes sense, but it was very much just kind of wandering and following what was interesting to me, that led me to where I am.
Yeah, and, and I love that. And I think that we don't give ourselves enough permission to to do that. And to kind of wander or follow what we love or what we're interested in, I think we often look externally to see what we should be doing. But you know, I love I love that that hasn't really been what you've done, but but rather, you know, following following your interests, which, which is really nice to hear.
That's important, absolutely.
So let's kind of switch gears a little bit and talk more about negotiation, because I know that that's something that you are going to be sharing some wisdom with us today. And I'd love to know, you know, why you even started getting interested in this was this kind of personal experience that led you to learn more? Tell us more about that.
Yeah, you know, it's funny. My interest in negotiating offer contracts stems from sort of, I guess, long term struggle or desire to recognize my own value, both personally and professionally, I'd say. And this really came to the forefront in a clear way when I entered the workforce and held various jobs first as an RN. Prior to that I had been a lifelong student, and so didn't really have a lot of work -work experience. But my first job as an RN was working for a well known hospital system in my area where it's generally considered a privilege to work for the hospital system. And so pay is understandably less because you're getting the prestige of working for the organization. And during the interview in offer period, I did not negotiate in this first job, I felt grateful to have found a job even though it was the first one I applied for. So in that first job negotiation didn't really entered my mind at all. And then my next job is an RN I'd obviously gained more skills. And in that role, when I was applying to the position, it was offering a higher rate and just better overall package in that first job. And so, again, I didn't really think to negotiate at all, I just happily accepted the job. But in - so in my final semester of school as a nurse practitioner student, I began applying to various jobs, I was very proactive with looking ahead and trying to anticipate challenges. And so I thought finding work would be difficult. So I applied early and often many different positions. And I was lucky enough to get a job offer at somewhere I did one of my clinical rotations, and the job was through a residency program. And the interview was more informal and less than typical, I'd say. I was I was invited to dinner by the Medical Director and the Program Director of the residency program to learn more about the job and kind of get to know one another better. And towards the end of the dinner, discussion of salary came up and and I knew that because it was a residency program where I would have more mentorship and support that salary would understandably be lower. I guess when I was told the number in the offer, I was surprised that it was a lot lower than I was expecting and I remember sort of fumbling through a counteroffer for the first time. And I don't remember if it was at the dinner, or a couple days later, but you know, I was - I was told that we can come up a little bit, but we can't meet you where you would like. And I ended up ultimately not taking the job. But what I took away from that first negotiation was that first, I didn't die. You know, I wasn't laughed out of out of the room, I wasn't laughed at or yelled at for being absurd. And even though it didn't go as expected, I felt more confident in myself and in my value. And I was lucky enough to have several other interviews. And after each one I went on, I started to sort of noticed a shift in my perspective, and I was realizing that I have more value as a new grad. And I wanted to make sure that I was finding a place that would be a good fit for me. And that was a big distinct shift from my previous interviews. And I realized that an interview is a two way process for us to evaluate one another to see if there's a good fit. And that as a new grad, I would still I would learn quickly and work diligently, I would hone my skills to provide quality care. And I do have to say that I have an older brother who's a very - he's very good support to me, he was able to often challenge my doubts and helped me see the value I did have and would have as an NP in practice. And so it was helpful to have that support along the way also. But that's a bit about my kind of journey navigating early negotiations.
I love that story. And especially when you said you didn't die, because, yeah, I think, I think one of the biggest issues or one of the biggest fears around negotiation is, is how much emotion is tangled up in it, at least for us as the applicant. I think that, you know, maybe on the other side on the hiring manager side, it's a very customary business type conversation, but for us as applicants because we entangle so much of our worth into into that. It can be, it can be scary, and it can be intimidating. So what are - do you think are some misconceptions about negotiation or, or things that things that we tell ourselves about the process that may or may not be true?
Yeah, so I think it's first important that I preface by saying that I am someone who is more shy, I'm introverted, and I had to learn how to recognize my worth. I often think that - I often think that when we think about negotiation that we think of a type of person who's very inherently confident, it's a personality, who is very loud and outgoing and dominant. But you know, that's not necessary to negotiate, you don't need to have a certain type of personality, to do it. I think the first step there - knowing that it's a practice is important, and that the first step is, I think, just getting permission. Permission that it's okay to negotiate, and then just feeling validated in your worth to proceed, whether that's internal validation, external or both. And I think they're just a lot of hang ups about negotiation. I know things that I've heard others talk about, and that I've thought myself, are, you know, "am I even allowed to negotiate?" Or, you know, "salary is a pretty set field in healthcare, especially for nurses," or, you know, "there's a hierarchy where when you work X number of years and have a certain amount of experience, you make this particular amount of money," or "I'll be working in a hospital and hospitals don't really do that." Or, you know, "I'm new with no experience, what kind of leverage could I have to negotiate?" Or "I don't have the personality to negotiate." Those are just some, but there are many out there. And I think that these are obviously very common worries and doubts, that stop people from even attempting to negotiate. And that's a problem, you sort of stop yourself before you start. And so I think being aware of these misconceptions, and common beliefs, and then challenging them is really important.
Yeah, for sure. Do you think that there are any situations that really someone shouldn't even try?
Um, no, I think that everyone, regardless of industry, regardless of where they are, along their career path, should negotiate. I think the more you practice doing it, the better you get, the more self confidence you gain, and I don't think that there's anything to lose, but I maybe that that differs based on who you talk to.
Yeah, I agree with you. I would give that same advice. You know, if someone if someone said, you know, should I not negotiate in most scenarios, it's worth a shot, right? You know, not every attempt is going to necessarily result in exactly what you want. But that doesn't mean that it's not, it's not worth trying and especially like you said, it really is a practice the art of having the conversation and going through the thought process and articulating your value your worth and - and asking for something, that is a practice, because it's usually a pretty foreign thing for - for most of us.
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's something that we're not really taught about. And I think it's it's hard to do, especially when you're a new, new grad, but just in general, we're not used to there being flexibility and options. And we take things as they are, until the idea that we're kind of pushing back against that seems very foreign and hard to do.
Yeah. Do you think that there? Is anything hard about actually negotiating? Or is it more, you know, the things that we need to be comfortable doing in order to even get to process?
So I think there are a few reasons why negotiation is hard, I think at its core negotiation is about worth worth we have for ourselves, and that the industry has for us. And most of us don't have a deep sense of self worth regarding our abilities and the value we can provide. Again, I think that's true for people in general. And then a new - a new grad with little experience also. And then again, I think that I - think that what makes negotiation difficult is that offers and salary are not thought of as flexible, especially in a structured environment like healthcare. And then also, I think, it's also probably not in your prospective employers best interest to highlight your value to you. And so there there can be difficulty in knowing your worth, and then asking for it assertively. And that can be difficult. But I think it's so important that we that we try to do so because you're also bringing value, you're bringing financial value, you know, to your company, you're improving patient outcomes over the months and years that you work with the company if you choose to stay. And so I think the key is starting off on the right foot with trying to negotiate because your potential annual raises will only be a small percentage each year if that. And even if you do a wonderful job and deserve a raise based on merit. Or, you know, even inflation shows that you deserve a raise, it can be really hard for employers to do that. I know that I've been told before, you know, you did a great job, but it's a raise is just not in our budget due to X, Y and Z. Or if you do get a raise, it might just be enough to keep up with inflation. And so like I'm getting off on a tangent, but I think - I think negotiation is hard. Because employers don't go out of their way to show you your value. And you might not recognize your own value yourself.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let's kind of talk through the process a little bit if I'm - if I'm someone who, you know, I want to negotiate for the first time, what - what does that process look like? Do I need to prepare in advance for the conversation so that I know what to say? What would you - how would you outline this process?
Yeah, so I think there are four general steps to negotiating an offer contract. The first is that you want to review the offer you, in order to do this, though, you need to have an offer in hand. So we don't want to be negotiating before we've been formally extended job offer. And so we first get the offer, and then we thank our prospective employer for the invitation to work with them. That's sort of step one. Next, you want to understand the negotiables of the offer contract. Now, there's a whole ton that's negotiable, beyond you know, salary and the hours you could potentially work. But it's important to know that not all negotiable items are listed in a contract, just because something isn't listed doesn't mean that's not negotiable. And, you know, certainly there's things like you know, negotiating your DEA license to be paid for, reimbursed, because that's, you know, $888, it's not a small cost or, you know, negotiating, you know, a slow ramp up period of the number of patients you're seeing, there are many different things that you can negotiate, and they're not all listed in the contract. And so you want to first understand the negotiables of an offer, then you want to negotiate the actual alterations of the contract. And to do this, you first need to know whether it'll be communicating via phone or email and in person. And then you want to have a clear idea of the items are the priorities that you want to negotiate before proceeding. And we want to have just a few items. We can't negotiate everything under the sun, but there could be a couple things that are that are important, and that are priorities to you to negotiate. And so the conversation may proceed as follows whether it's via phone or in person or via email, you could say, you know, "hi, Mr/Mrs/Dr. X, I want to thank you for your offer to work with your organization. I look forward to making an impact on a facility, and I'm excited to be a part of your team. There are just a few aspects of the contract I'm wanting to discuss to see if we can come to an - a mutual agreement." So there's more to it than that. But that's kind of the general outline of how you would maybe phrase it. And then you lastly - you want to get a second opinion on the job offer. You want to have someone else to review it, whether it's a trusted colleague, a family member, or nurse attorney, for the nurse attorney, you can go to taana.org. That's T-A-A-N-A, that's The American Association of Nurse Attorneys. But again, it doesn't have to be a nurse attorney who reviews it, you just want to have a second opinion, a second pair of eyes looking over the offer contract. And so that's there's more nuance to that. But that's kind of the general outline of how our power of negotiating an offer contract.
It sounds less scary when you lay it out like that, doesn't it?
It really is like, the more you practice, the better you get at it. I know I said in the beginning, I really fumbled through the first offer contract. Role playing and practicing with others can be helpful too. But it's really not as scary as it seems. And I think having permission to do it, and that you should do it every time I think is kind of helpful to kind of dip your toe into doing it and doing it more emotional.
Yeah. Now, do you think that during that step during the step three, where it's negotiate the alterations, and you're having that conversation, do you think that, you know, someone could be direct and simply say, you know, these are the the things that I'd like to discuss to have to come to a mutual agreement? Do you also think that it's necessary to say why? Or are we just making the ask? Because I think that a lot of times we feel the need to justify a lot of what we're saying and what we're asking for. And I'm wondering where you see that come into play in terms of us wanting to articulate our reasoning or articulate our value.
When you say, Why do you mean, like, why we need to come to a mutual agreement?
Yeah, like, Do you - do you think that if I'm if if we're in negotiations, and you've presented me with the offer, and I want to ask for something different, do you think that it's enough that I just say, these are the things that I'd like to ask for? Or do I also need to have statements that say, as you know, I have this much this many years of experience? And, you know, insert information about my value here?
Yeah, no, I think that could be helpful to add as well, I think it's helpful to share your experiences and what you can bring it to the - to the, you know, the table, because it's a two way street, they're not just giving you a job, and you're accepting it, you're providing value to them as well. And so I think when I said, I look forward to making an immediate impact on your facility, and excited to join, you know, the team, I would maybe throw in why you might be a great candidate, what, what value you can add, I think, adding a bit of that as helpful, and possibly when you were interviewing you were highlighting some of that also. And so I think the interviewer does a bit of that. And then negotiation is kind of when they've extended an offer, and you want to just, yeah, come to mutual agreement on items that you're looking to. Yeah, to alternate?
Yeah, for sure. I think I agree with you there. And, you know, I think there may be a tendency to feel like, you need to give it a detailed mathematical explanation for every - for every ask, but I think that, you know, we could easily go into kind of overkill territory here, you know, like, if you, if you were to say you're asking for a salary increase, because, you know, I'm going to see this many patients over this amount of time and generate this amount of money for the practice. Like, I think that's going down a little bit farther than necessary. Because, like you said, they've already given you the offer, they already want you, right, they they're already saying you are the candidate that we want. So I think, yes, articulating that value, but not over justifying the request is - is -is smart,
Agreed, I don't think that - I don't think that needs to be done. I think sometimes the over justification could come from maybe a sense that's in yourself that you feel like you're not worth that amount or that role. And you absolutely are and you will be and the worst thing you can do is be resentful once you're in the role with with some aspect of the offer because you are valuable. That's, that's so important to us as NPs, even new grads are so incredibly valuable in what we do. And so I think hearing you talk about potentially going down a rabbit hole explaining why you're valuable. I think it's missing the point that we need to feel inherently valuable and what we can provide and what we can offer and once you feel that and you know that it translates so much better off on to someone else.
Yeah, I totally agree. Sometimes easier said than done, but 100% I - I agree and I hope that know that our listeners kind of take that message to heart because I think that a lot of our our comfort and ability and confidence in this process will certainly be the work that we do, you know, on the inside, as opposed to the external conversations that we're having.
And I do think it's easier for a person who's not a new grad to negotiate. I know as I've gone along, it's gotten easier because I have external validation also. I have improved patient outcomes, I can fall back on I have just my experience, in my confidence, I'm better able to interview a company because I've worked in places where there have been problems I didn't love. And so I do think that confidence comes with time and experience and then validation outside and not just internal validation. Because you're right, it can be really hard to feel internally motivated to feel valued in what you can offer a company.
Yeah, definitely. Let's say an employer in an interview, so before we have an offer, let's say they pose a question, what are your salary expectations? Kind of have a love/hate relationship with that question. What do you recommend in terms of a good response to that?
Yeah, so yeah, you absolutely might be asked during an interview caught off guard, what you're looking to make salary wise. And I generally recommend proceeding with caution, and not automatically blurting out a number. I think it can lock you into a salary. And it sort of provides an anchor point around which future salary talks surround. And also during the interview, you might be nervous and not thinking in the same way, you might think outside of an interview. And also, like, if you give a salary range, your employer will typically kind of subconsciously or consciously focus on that lower end of the range. And so I think instead, you could say you want to look at the contract in entirety before you, you know, state a desired salary. But, so generally, you know, not saying a salary is a safe option. But if you've thought about it, and you're anticipating the question, and you want to reply in the moment, saying something like, considering the caseload and expectations that this job requires, I am looking for an annual salary of at least X per year. With that amount, I could confidently accept this job and provide an immediate impact on your organization and the patients it serves. Now, this response does a couple things. It shows your understanding of the role and expectations, it also lists the minimum salary salary you're looking for. And then it ends by emphasizing that you'll be adding value to the organization, which is some- certainly something that they are looking for. But it's definitely an assertive response. And it's not something you need to say in the moment. And so I think if you say that you just want to look at the contract in entirety frst if you're asked about salary, I think that certainly makes us
Yeah, I - I really like both of those options. I used to - I used to be in the camp of providing a range when asked the question and over time, my - my opinions of that - of that have evolved a bit to either what you mentioned, you know, wait until you get the contract and come up with a way to kind of say that, that you don't really have enough information to to answer the question. I think there's a - a tactful way to, to answer that. But to your the first point you made, you know, when you provide a response, you kind of give an anchor point that, you know, if it's way lower than what they're budgeting for the role, you know, then then you've missed out potentially on on a higher salary. So I always think that it's great to get a number first from the employer if - if possible, unless, like you said, you have a lot of information and are able to give that sort of response of, you know, this is this is the minimum based on - based on what I've learned.
Absolutely, I agree. I think with that range, I think, oftentimes, when we say a range, yeah, it just opens up an opportunity to focus on that lower number. And it makes sense to kind of, as you're saying, kind of let them speak first. Or if you have very confidently in mind the number you're looking to make a minimum number, kind of using that, but I tend to stay away from ranges.
Yeah. Thank you for that. I like I like that insight. So let's say we've attempted to negotiate, we've gone through this process. And we've asked for what we want. And the answer that we get is not what we're hoping for, let's say they, you know, they say no, that it's either not negotiable, or they don't have any wiggle room. Like what are our next steps in terms of how to move forward?
Yep. So yeah, so let's say you've come across a position where you're ready to negotiate, you've practiced and you've prepared to negotiate your worth. And then the organization says before you even attempt, you know, we don't negotiate. And I've had students in my course who've been told this very thing you know, we don't negotiate. So I think there are several things to unpack here, I think it's first important to know that the healthcare industry isn't used to providers, especially nurses, negotiating. And so they can very much be caught off guard by it, because it's not, you know, regular- regularly done. And I think there's a culture where the advantage is with the industry and with the employers and not necessarily the providers. And so when you come along to negotiate, they may brush you off and say, You know what, no, this is my offer. Because they can find someone else, they feel that they can find someone else. And they might do that. And so you might be disheartened. And think why negotiate at all? And the reason why is, again, the more you practice it, the better you get at it, the more comfortable you become with it. And then not all places will say, you know, no, but if employer - if an employer does say, No, you do have a couple options. So if they say no, you can either respectfully decline knowing that you do have other options, that you can be patient and find a job that will fit your needs and recognize your value. Or you can accept the offer. But know that they're showing you who they are in maybe may demonstrate the same rigidity down the road when you're in practice. So it's 100%, okay to accept the offer, as long as you know this and accept it going in. So you're not potentially caught off guard. So there's really there's no right option. It's just an understanding and an intentionality of what you're walking into whether you accept or decline the offer.
Yeah, I think that sounds great. I agree with you. I think that in some instances - in some instances, you might go into the negotiation. And before going into it, you might ask yourself that question, you know, and kind of do a little gut check on yourself, like, okay, does this job still feel aligned? And right, and good for me at the original offer, you know, and ask yourself, how am I going to proceed if they say no to my requests? Because you may be negotiating from an offer that - that is a good offer, and you're just, you know, trying to get a few - a few things brought up. So I think that it can be really helpful to do a gut check in advance so that, you know, all right, if they say no, am I walking away, or am I going to take it anyway? And I've been on both of those sides of the coin, and it is really helpful to check in with yourself first and, and kind of say, okay, aside from salary, aside from negotiation, is - is this still the job that I want regardless? Is it an other- is it a good fit in other ways that makes up for either the lack of negotiation or the lack of flexibility in the offer? So I don't think that - I don't think that if they say no, that someone has to walk away. In that scenario.
I agree that I love that that kind of gut check of kind of checking yourself before of how do you feel about the job? Hopefully, you've had the opportunity to do things like shadow also and ask a whole lot of questions to really see if it's good fit for you or not. And so you're kind of using your own self as a compass for whether it could be a good job for you or not, regardless of how the negotiation goes. I love that. I think that's great.
Yeah, so I wanted to recap the steps. I wrote them down, because I think- and I think that it's such a good process. And it's always good to kind of summarize what we have talked about. So you mentioned four negotiation steps, the first one being reviewing the offer, so you really can't negotiate until you have an offer in hand with an actual number. So that's that first step reviewing the offer, and also thanking the potential employer for the extension of the offer.
The step number two is to understand the negotiables. So figuring out which aspects of the contract they're - you are, you're going to negotiate right, or which ones seem to have leeway?
Correct, correct. And knowing that not all negotiable items are necessarily in the contract. And so kind of having a sense of what is important for you and what you'd like to negotiate. Yes.
So that's number two. Number three is to negotiate the alterations to the contract. So that involves prioritizing what you want to negotiate right and then having the communication itself?
And then fourth, is getting a second opinion on the contract from either nurse attorney, trusted colleague friend, mentor, coach, correct?
Yeah. Yes, yes.
Awesome. Well, Claire, this has been wonderful. I think that this is such a helpful framework for - for my listeners, I would love to hear more about the type of work that you do. I know that you offer services and education, so tell me a little bit more about your platform and how people can learn more from you.
Yeah, so I have an online business called NP for NPs Nurtured Path for Nurse Practitioners. And I help final semester nurse practitioner students in new grads kind of navigate the transition into practice. And I have a course called NP for NPs, Unsure to Unstoppable that walk students through every step needed to be taken to successfully navigate the transition into practice. So the guesswork or questions of what do I need to do first or next are answered and explained through a video course and a written guide that walks you through what needs to be done without feeling overwhelmed. It's broken up into modules, starting with getting board certified and then licensed in your particular state with information on all 50 states. And then finding the right job interviewing, negotiating collaborative care time management in the day, and then finally avoiding burnout. It's sort of everything I wish I'd had when I was in school transitioning in practice. And I just I firmly believe that all NPs regardless of specialty deserve to enter practice feeling prepared and self assured. And I believe that working proactively to anticipate challenges really sets an NP up for success. And so I think an NP student in their final semester is kind of the best fit for this course. But new grads certainly take it as well and - and benefit. And so I can be found on Instagram @NPforNPs, on Facebook, at NP for NPs and my website, npfornps.com.
Awesome. Well, we will link to all of those places in the show notes of the episode and I just want to thank you for spending time with us today. This has been so helpful.