Well-Being Through the Prism of Mental Health + The Experience of Being A Black Fundraiser - Nneka Allen

5:53AM Oct 5, 2021

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Nneka Allen

Keywords:

people

book

community

called

fundraisers

wrote

black

story

trauma

becky

experiences

philanthropy

organizations

friends

mental health

empathy

courage

conversation

growing

canadian

Welcome back to Mental Health Week presented by gift butter. It's day four. We're so glad you're here.

Hey, I'm john. And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast.

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So let's get started. Hey, Becky,

I love that we are about to have this conversation with a living legend video

is like lit up today, like we are so excited. And Nneka Allen is with us today. And she has got to be one of the most hyped but living up to the hype already. persons in our world. We've had some of the most defining conversations, this last year of the podcast of learning how storytelling and empathy can connect us, and how can bring us and invite us into different people's stories and journeys. And and Nika has done that for our industry for a table that honestly has been off to the side and marginalized so much of at least my lifetime. And so today she is going to welcome us into the conversation we're talking about well being through the prism of mental health, as it relates to the experiences of black fundraisers. And she has, you know, really culminated all of this through a book recently called collecting courage, oh my gosh, this book and y'all this book, okay, this brings together 15, black fundraisers in the United States and Canada, to tell their stories. And I'm telling you right now, put it in your cart, whatever book destination you shop, because the stories that are within are people that you've met on the podcast, but they're going even deeper to some of the stories that they've told through the lens of what's it What is it like to be a black fundraiser in a, you know, in a society that, you know, always marginalizes and always pushes voices off to the side. And so, this conversation today is about empathy. It's also about just carving out a path and moving together toward justice. And Nneka is going to share a little bit about her work and creating the empathy agency which works with corporations to really find their soul. Also, she's gonna unpack all of that with us. And she's just she's really well rested. And I want you to lead in with that and make it but we're so glad that you're here today. Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much Jon and Becky for having me. You guys have made me feel so welcome from your first emails to me to just the brief chat we had before we pressed record and I'm, I feel blessed and grateful to be sharing time and space with you.

It's sincerely our honor, it is we've been counting down the days not to freak you out. Exactly.

Not creepy.

not creepy at all. But Nneka, would you tell us about your journey, you know, they're filling this your story what brought you to here today and I know just from reading your work and being in your arra, like your story has so much shaped who you are and how you show up and what you fight for. And I would just would love for you to thread that together and bring our audience along with you.

Yeah, before I do that, do you mind if I begin by acknowledging my ancestors in the land?

Oh my god, oh my goodness.

All right. I am a descendant of American slavery. And my family has been in Canada for nearly 200 years. And in North America for at least 450 years. Some of my ancestors escaped American slavery and landed on the shores of amherstburg, Ontario in the 1840s. This is the traditional territory of the three fires Confederacy, which includes the Ojibwe, the Bella, and the Potawatomi peoples. I acknowledge the indigenous peoples and their nations who are my relations for the lands that I use. I acknowledge the traditional ancestral unceded territory of the SU mass and maski First Nation. They are part of the stalo nation and they live in the Fraser Valley and have been in BC for over 10,000 years. I honor and acknowledge this traditional territory where I work in life today. And I see myself and my ancestors as forced inhabitants of these beautiful territories. But I am grateful for our historic relationship between our peoples. Today in Canada, is the first national day of truth and reconciliation. In honor of that, I want to send our conversation with one of my favorite quotes from Robin wall kimmerer, who wrote braiding sweetgrass and image she said, if there is meaning in the past, and in the imagined future, it is captured in the moment when you have all the time in the world. You can see bended, not going somewhere, but I'm being where you are.

Wow, I feel like she almost just lulled us into the soft lullaby. And I have to just give you credit for starting there. When you ground a story in a conversation in your why, and I look at what you're doing to honor your family and and in this fight for justice, it really just to me expresses this level of legacy that you continue on in your work. And I just want to thank you for starting that. And just tone setting was such a beautiful tribute right there.

Oh, listen, it's it's not a quiz coincidence that we're meeting on this day. And that nationally here, this is how we are focused. And so it just seemed fitting to to begin there.

Well, I would love I mean, we've got you've gone all the way back to the 1840s or even 450 years before that, I want to know about a Nika growing up in Canada, like Tell us about your you know, your, your formative experiences. And what led you to wanting to do this empathy based work that you are doing today?

Can I give a plug that your introduction in this book, like it is really healthy? for Americans that don't understand this, to read this introduction alone, because it gives you context, that I'm sure it's deeper than even you can get right now. But it's just so helpful. So thank you for that.

Well, thank you for saying that, john. But I'll tell you, it's context that most Canadians need to so I grew up in Windsor, Ontario, and across from Detroit, Michigan, and I grew up in the 70s, in a household that was infused with all things, black power, and with the sentiment of black is beautiful. And that activism, that spirit of activism infused, how I was raised how my brother was raised, also having, you know, growing up in a small city, but across from a metropolis city that is predominantly black, such a gift, and has influenced, you know, my life and the culture of most black people in Windsor. Even today, and I would say, you know, the reason why I ended up doing this work is such a windy road. And for many years, I couldn't figure out where I was going. I just knew I had a certain passion that I couldn't articulate because, well, first, nobody was called a fundraiser. When I was finishing college, right, nobody was called coach, other than on an athletic team, these things are not a part of the lexicon, you know. And so I found myself growing up and being talented in a number of ways. And being very creative. I danced classical ballet for 10 years and, and quit just before I could teach over a boy, that's a different story. Why my parents allowed that that's also a different story. Um, and found myself, you know, leaving high school and starting college, and not knowing what direction to go in business seemed like the closest thing to it. That wasn't a fit, but it was something. And what happened was a few years later, I had an opportunity through my father, who was very involved in the community to join a team at the what is now called the atmospheric freedom museum. And that opportunity was centered around this capital campaign, which I talked about and collecting courage for the Nazareth, me church and the restoration of that edifice. And it was in that it was in the basement of the museum where I began to find myself. And it and it's not that I was particularly lost, but sometimes you don't know that and to come away, right. And so I found myself in the basement of the museum with box after box after box of archival material, which was my responsibility to go through and to begin to make sense of for the federal government, who was one of the largest funders in this $1 million plus restoration campaign. And it took me six months to pour over those documents. And at first I was completely petrified right of the process. But as I went through the process, I started to see myself more clearly I started to recall the things that my parents had said, and were continuing to say to me and my brother as we were growing up, I could I actually saw in print form the lives of people and families that I knew. And they all connected to this really powerful movement of the AMA church, which as you know, is not just a Canadian movement, right? It is. It is an American and Canadian movement and is very much tied to the Underground Railroad. And so as I began to get a picture, I found myself becoming more and more drawn to knowing more and clarifying that picture. And by the time I wrote the stewardship report, which was a massive undertaking, several 100 pages. It was a historical reencounter. And we had to recount history, we had to, like concretize, that in the present, also document the restoration process.

Once that was completed, and we gathered to unveil this, this beauty of a building, I don't know, so many pieces started to snap together. And I started to just know, I need to do work in the nonprofit sector, like I could get up every day and do this for free, right, like, so this is the space I need to be in. But as you know, that was in 1999, and in 2000, and we know what happened in September of 2001. And that really changed the face of tourism. A lot of our tourism was American visitors. And so I had to make a shift, and I ended up landing in healthcare. And it's funny, because this is where the term fundraising was first introduced to me. And it was introduced by a CEO, the CEO of a mental health organization who I applied for completely different job, and in my first interview, showed my portfolio and she said, Hmm, have you ever thought about fundraising? Like, if I send you a job description, could you like, let me know if you could do that do this work. And she did. And I said, Yes. And I ended up spending nine years with them. And then I went on to spend some time in a, in a hospital, and like a Regional Hospital Foundation. And throughout that entire time, I was usually the only black woman in the room, black person in the room. And the experiences that I was having inside those organizations, was mind bending, and soul crushing. At the same time, while the work was just so delicious, right? It's the work that I can just do, and I love to do, and I wanted to do more of. And so in my surviving those environments, through the community I have around me, I found myself then offering that same support to others. And I would say about five years ago, I found myself supporting quite a few young black women in particular, who were in the nonprofit sector struggling in very similar ways, to the way I was struggling and had been struggling and so began offering my support to them, so that they could navigate But more than that, so they could survive.

I don't know if this was the timing, and you can help sync up my timelines. But I know you did a big piece with AFP, they helped provide space and kind of resources to galvanize some of these thoughts. Would you talk a little bit about that, I think it's really fascinating.

You absolutely are right to heal. So this service dovetail. So that same period of time, when I was doing a lot of that mentoring, AFP, global, put out a call for proposals. And I wrote them and said, so I don't hear or see any voices, or any faces that look like mine, which are black and Canadian. And yet, I've been a member of this association for quite some time. And I think we have something to share. And here's some of the ways that maybe we could contribute. And so they, they said, Oh, okay, that sounds like a good idea. So we started to co create what it could be. And they asked us if we write first person narrative, so it's the bulk of the project is 10 first person narratives from black female fundraisers talking about our right to heal from the pain of racism, the pain of surviving inside a sector that discounts us more often than not. And in addition to that, it includes a spoken word piece that we turned into a video they had asked us to do a micro learning video on the difference between inclusion and belonging, and I laughed at them, because my videos are two minutes, and I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's so little subject you want to take on?

We all want sweets these days, you know, it's not healthy.

Yeah. And so I went away and thought, Okay, let me let me just see if I would think about it. And I thought the only way we could express this as creatively and so I called in a brother from Windsor from home, who is a spoken word artist, and he just sat in our midst, the midst of the black woman who wrote and he wrote that piece for us. And so we came together to sort of bring it together, bring it to life, as a video. So people could hear and maybe feel and see, you know what that difference is. And then we also did a up close interview with one of the authors about how her health was challenged as a result of the racism she was experiencing shrink a little bit deeper into her story. And so our right to heal came out. In fact, the day after George Floyd was murdered,

oh my gosh,

yeah, no one, no one knew that was gonna happen. And, and that is actually what gave birth to collect, encourage?

Well, I want to thank you for taking the time, and reaching out and saying in such a kind and empathetic way, hey, we're not being represented here. And there are important voices here. And one of the values we talk about on our company, like in this company in this space a lot is cognitive diversity. And the only way that we can grow our empathy is by sitting down with people who have entirely different lived experiences than we do, and coming to understand them. So I wonder if you would allow us to double click and just kind of rewinding a little bit on what you were saying about what you experienced in health care what you experienced in your positions, what your friends what these black women who were coming to you for solace and community? Could you give our listeners like this is like a little cognitive diversity moment lens into what you experienced? And what life is like?

Well, I mean, yeah, we could be here all afternoon telling me stories, but I mean, collect encourages, you know, 15 contributions, but each of us could sit down and probably write many, many stories. One of our authors we days, this is the first time he ever wrote about his experiences. And he said, as soon as I started writing, I couldn't stop, he ended up with what is the equivalent to about four or five stores, in addition to the one that's in the book. I mean, for me, it was everything from what when I started to wear my hair natural. So this is about 15 years ago, I started to wear my hair, natural, people laughing at me, like out loud at work all the way to the covert and the covert, I would say is probably the most painful. So this is when I had to call an assistant out of a meeting to get something for a donor that she was supposed to left for donor the day before and didn't have to call her at the meeting to get it because the donor was present, to then have the union file a grievance against me, because they didn't like the way I called her out of the room. Oh, by the way, I didn't use any words. So it's everything from that on that spectrum. So you can you can just begin to imagine, right? What could exist,

I feel like we are just sadly, pulling back the layers of what is under here. And the amount of trauma and suffering is something that we're going to have to understand and listen to, to be able to work through it to be better. And this is about making space for everybody at the table. And I don't want anybody to feel that way in our sector, because we've all been other rised in some way, you know, by a bully or by, you know, a co worker who didn't like us or see us, we know that feeling. And I cannot imagine living that feeling every single day. So thank you for sharing that and just giving us a glimpse.

And you know, I think what's really important to Becky to underline here is you know, there's there's two things in operation, there's the individualized racism, which is what I just described to you, right? Oh, the covert one has another element wrapped around it. And that is the systemic piece. And so living in a system that says I am not as qualified or I am not as good, or I should not be in certain places, right? As a result of my skin color is sort of the is the context that we exist in. And then we also experienced the end of individualized racism. There's two things at play there, right? And so I bring that up because I think that's what it catapults us into a different category from bullying and from being othered right, which is the reason why I focus on what anti black racism is about. Is is vital.

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I just want to tell you, that I am so sorry that that happened to you. And it's not okay. And I'm sorry that it happens to any of our friends. And it is not okay. And we're committed to doing better.

I love that. Well, I'm glad to hear that because at the empathy agency, we believe that it is the individuals responsibility. First, we can't This is inner work, this is our work as individuals, it has to start there. If it doesn't start there, we will go, we really will go nowhere.

Well, I would love to, you know, talk about your book, and by your book. It's the book of many voices coming together. But I think you know, coming out of your story, which, if it didn't sucker punch you like you need to do some self evaluation. And I think there's power in just listening and asking, and if you don't have anybody to ask and get to know and hear their story, like pick up the book, because you can hear 15 stories right out of the gate right away. That's going to give you a lens, a beginning step to understand the depth and the pain and kind of truly what struck me the most, and I'm sorry, I want you to talk about the book, not me. But what I love about it, because I we're ridiculous idealist at the end of the day, we're optimistic. And when I read it, I it's not hearing, just frustration and stories. It's talking about love and how like philanthropy is part of this healing. And it's part of our ancestors story. And it's part of our DNA. And it's such like the pure philanthropy that we fight for, and that we want to see more of in the world. And that's what's at the core of each of these stories. And that's to me, what's so uplifting here, too. So there's a lot of reasons to read it. But I would say that's probably the biggest thing that I took away that there's just so much hope infused, and so much love, infuse that words use a lot, too. So there's your tee-up, tell us how this book came to be. And talk us a little bit about, you know, what it's meant to you to convene these stories, especially at a time like this.

So yeah. So as I said, our right to heal, just sort of ushered in collecting courage. And that is because as we were writing our right to heal, our black Canadian fundraisers collective group was, was doing a book club with Gil Kate Pico, who wrote a book called cap in hand, and we were doing a book club with her. And at that meeting, because we only meet over food, that's our

smart rule just in general,

right? It's just, it's just, it's just the right thing to do. Over that lovely lunch, we were talking about many things, including her book, but she said, I've always been really interested in writing a book about the experiences of black fundraisers. And so we talked about it a little bit of this was like pie in the sky, a little bit of dreaming happening. And, and so we went away from that, not thinking about that. And and so fast forward six months to May, right, may 26, Gil's one of the first people to read or write to heal. And when she did, she caught she pick up the phone and called my sister Nicole salmon and said, I think the time is now for the book. And Nicole said, Well, I think it's great, but let me call an ISA, she called me and I said, Yes. And so then we put it we went out to the collective and asked, we wanted to make sure that Canadian voices had some prominence in this because in Canada, we, we really neglect capturing the realities and the truth about black people. And so we wanted to make sure that Canadians had a prominent piece in the book. So we got a bunch of people who were interested from the collective and then we reached out to our American sisters who we knew had something to share. And that was July we signed a contract in November, we published collecting courage and I tell you, that those months spent with Nicole and Camilla and the authors but Nicole and Camille and I, you know, we still meet every Monday as editors. It was some of the most remarkable time in my career. I don't know that I have sufficient language to explain what it felt like or what it was like to do the work. We knew it was really necessary work. We were really intentional about how we can To the work, we already loved each other. But I think we love each other more now, because we did something really difficult together. And actually, just before we got on here, I got a message from a young black fundraiser who I don't know, on LinkedIn. And she literally just wrote me and said, your book is life. You know, it's those sorts of messages, fill me up in ways I can't really describe. And I would say, when we first presented the book to the authors, you should know we all wrote in isolation. So nobody knew what anybody else was writing. They knew what theme we were writing under, but nobody knew when anybody was writing. When we brought the whole book together, we presented it to the authors, the validation, and the being seen, and being felt, and the value of that. And what that cultivates in an environment with people is just so beautiful. And so every time that is recreated through messages, like the one I just mentioned, I feel, I feel humbled that I find myself in this moment in time. I'm also really encouraged and excited about the fact that white folks are reading it, and their eyes are being opened to the truth, and that they're asking really great questions about so now what? And so we we hear that call, and we plan to answer it?

Well, I want to thank you for your courage to step out and do this. Because when you go deep like this, I can imagine that there would be a certain level of trauma that is that is just stirred up, and every single one of you. And I love that this book was a compilation of what happens in community. And so that no one felt alone in their writing. They understood that every story and that is how the book reads compounds and flows beautifully. Right into the next one. And it's and it really is an anthology of not just the pain, but also the love and I love that you uplifted that because we can feel that in your book and that sense of community. And I one of the things I want to dive into is identity assimilation and resiliency. And so we've seen some quotes throughout the book, and many of your friends are friends, co contributors, I know we haven't even said kushana Palmer's in this book, Crystal cherries in this book, beer gets in this book has all been on the podcast, they talk about conforming to the culture of whiteness and philanthropy and the long term effects of doing that you share with our listeners what this is and what it means and how we can be an ally and, and allow people to show up beautifully in the in the space that they are as the person they are so illuminated that and walk us through it a little bit.

I over the summer, just finished reading Reza manakins book, my grandmother's hands, I don't know if you're familiar with that. But it is a beautiful book about healing from racialized trauma. And it is about healing as black people, but also as white people and also for police. I highly recommend it. He really travels into the history behind the trauma we experience to validate the trauma we experience today, right and how to process it, how we can process it through our body so we can be healthier. But first, before we can even get to that place, we have to acknowledge that there is trauma. And I find you know, as a black woman, we are infrequently invited into spaces to do that, because we have so many things we have to do to survive, right? moms, wives, partners, right? business people. And so what I have found is a compounding effect of traumas, and through the telling of story, my story, their stories, I find that the trauma gets revealed. It gets processed in some ways. It gets validated by not being alone story. I think the research has been done about the effects of trauma when I worked at that mental health organization years ago, our local university was doing research on the effects of racism on folks mental health and our organization which was a leader in that space was not interested in looking at that. Wow, it as a matter of fact, I don't Know that it's still being looked at as a serious issue. About a year and a half ago, I was diagnosed with high blood pressure, to my shock and awe, like truly to my shock and awe. And the part that really floored me was that my doctor in talking to me about, you know, what I need to do about the high blood pressure, obviously talk to you about medication, informed me that there are specific medications for black people, and the type of stress that we survive, which tells me like in that moment, it was crystal clear to me. So the medical community knows the effects of racism, because I live a relatively healthy lifestyle, and the greatest source of stress, stress and pressure on my life, then was working in an environment where I was the only black woman. And so when you think about the confluence of, you know, mental health, and physical health, and racism, where's our sense of responsibility around community, well being around individual wellbeing, organizational well being right?

I mean, we're just all mic processing with you. And I think, I mean, I just, I think in themes a lot, but I just think that this last year is just so validating that the things that you have experienced in life is finally getting some validation and some snowball of like, okay, we've talked about it, we've put this out there, it's time to like, literally change, let's actually do, let's put the dude behind it, and not just say this, but actually have some calls to action and actually change some stuff, you know, and I got to think that that meeting of the moment, and something you talk about, is happening in the mental health space in the sector, hope it's happening in our sector. And that's why we wanted to shine a light on mental health, specifically in our sector, because we look around and we see broken people we see burnt out people we see, all of the things you've described in the book, you know, tell story after story of being the last hired, or the first fired and overlooked for promotions and toxic workplaces and all the things on top of being an industry that you're pouring yourself out on every level. And it's it's all encompassing, especially I think, some of the missions that serve the small community, like these smaller organizations, where it's like, immersive, so you commingle all of that, and we need to move forward, we need to step into vibrancy. And so I just, you know, what is your thought on that? Like, where where do you think the nonprofit sector needs to shift and support these stories that we've, you know, began to be told, and so many more to be told, but what, where's this moment in time for you?

I think it comes back to the individual again, you know, all of us, not just black people, not just brown people, not just indigenous people, all of us, white people included, have a role to play. And I would say white people have a particular role to play because of the responsibility and because of the power that they hold. And this work begins with the individual, the only person we have any control over, in fact. And so understanding who we are, in the context we live in, is vital. How else can we understand how to relate to other people, we can't, you have to first know thyself, and we're infrequently invited into space to do that work. And so this is where organizations can come in, right? This is the sort of work they should be supporting their staff to do. Right? I just did a, I just did a workshop around identity and storytelling and the power of I. In a fundraising conference, we spent two and a half hours together, and I spent two hours talking to them about identity and how you articulate your story. And I spent 10 minutes talking to them about why this matters and fundraising. And it's really simple. How can you engage authentically in telling stories about this important work you're doing unless you can locate your own self in that work? I mean, we're not we're not making widgets. We're trying to change the world.

It is call for reflection and spending time with it and truly sitting with some stories. I think that is an opportunity here to just really sit and realize how you me is playing into that and creating that. And so yeah, thank you for for kind of re centering us on that I think you're spot on.

And I think the journey, it's important to know it's going to be a long one. I mean, we're talking about centuries of oppression. that have been ingrained in the DNA of individuals. And so understanding that this is a journey, and that we're going to have to get into that learning and listening phase for a long time. But I also think that there is an action piece here, that is absolutely essential. And we've had this conversation many times, and I love that you talked about your voice, and knowing thyself, I thank you for coming into this conversation with an open heart and an open ear, because we're going to need your advocacy. And again, to your point, it's not your job to educate me. We've got to go out and do the work. And it starts, I think, with listening and that, and I would love for you to just riff on that. If you have any opinions.

Yeah, absolutely conjured so many images in my mind, just now Becky, you know, to two terms that I like to use to help people organize the role that they should be playing in this work are pioneer and champion. As a woman of color. I am a pioneer, y'all as white folks, are champions. And so as we think about those roles, pioneers must lead, they go first. Right? And so when we think about who's on the margins of our organizations on the margins of society, how are we centering them? Right, it's a centering of them. And it requires great humility, to then follow those who used to be relegated right to the margins. But I tell you, so many of the solutions that we seek in our organizations, those communities already have, you know, john, at the beginning, you were talking about how the book is sort of, you know, full of hope. And, and, and it is expressing something more robust than what we currently know, in our organizations. And I would say that's because of our legacy of philanthropy, in the African diaspora, which predates this westernized version of philanthropy. Right, and is rooted in reciprocity, and communalism and resist individualism. And so it's only in community where we thrive. It's actually the only way that I sit with you today. I wasn't supposed to be here. But I sit here because of community. And so for all of my sisters, and my brother who wrote, it's the same for them, they know it because it flows in their DNA.

And you know, it's I'm having, I wish I could use the eloquent words that you use and Nika, but I'm having flashbacks to conversations when we get to spend time with Dr. Tyrone Freeman. Oh, my gosh, he's, I've tried to adopt him as my brother, too. Yeah, he is one of our favorite people of all time, I mean, but the lens that he put through the through the story of madam CJ Walker, but just the lens on how black philanthropy has been here, way before this new definition, I mean, grew our hearts and minds that way. And it's a story that's not told, you know, unfortunately. And so I thank you for bringing us back to them.

Absolutely.

I want to know what advice you would give to listeners right now, who are wanting to be those champions. What are some things that they can do today, to come alongside our pioneers? and be an advocate and an ally?

Yeah, well, first, they can read Collecting Courage?

You got it. We're

linking it up in the show notes. It isn't extraordinary. But do you want us to buy it from your website? Let's just be real. Is that Yeah, for y'all? Cuz I looked at your site. I should have ordered it through there.

Yes, please order it through our website. And so we have links for Americans and Canadians and our friends across the pond. And so CollectingCourage.org, right. Yes, thank you, Becky, for that question. I think the number one thing we can do is get in proximity. And so before I dive into that for a minute, let me just say this, we live in a segregated society. We don't say that anymore. No one's really talking about that. But it is in fact segregated a whole bunch of research on that you can Google it, because that is true. And it's true here in Canada to majority of people do not live in proximity to people who are different than them. White people in particular, very few white people have some black or brown on speed dial that they could call up without notifying them and invite them over for a drink. Like with no notes or just show up on their doorstep. And so the answer for me is always in proximity. So I love what you said, Becky, how can we come alongside pioneers? How can we get around pioneers? Yeah, how can we get around pioneers? So how do we have to change our lives so that we're not living in a segregated society anymore? You know, Malcolm Gladwell, I'm gonna paraphrase paraphrase here, he wrote, you know, Hey, y'all, you know, you want black people to be to have all the, you know, access that white people have, essentially, well, you're going to have to change your life. That's how we get there, you're going to have to rearrange and change your life. And so getting in proximity with people who are on the margins of society requires a changing of your life, which is the reason why this work starts with the individual, because people want to change their life, right. And so as you have that proximity with people who are different, and who are living a different experience than you see the world differently than you, you will begin to learn and so many ways that I couldn't even begin to articulate it all. And there's no substitute for that type of learning. We were created to be relational. And so being in relationship cultivates something that we need, in order to begin to see, what is the path forward look like for me? Where do I need to lay my gifts to work in the direction of justice?

Where do I need to lay my gifts to work in the direction of justice? That has to be like something I need to have put on a pillow in my room. And so I look at it every single day.

Since we're quoting a Nneka Can I say my favorite quote of the Nika in the book, do it, I will always allow the richness of empathy to drive my compassion. So love will rise and face fear. The flow of the call to action is where I really want to stay because I want us to not just sit with this conversation, I want to take time as a community to sit with this conversation, but also to look within ourself of what's something we can do today. And we end our podcast with asking what's a one good thing, and I wanted to up that way I have what is one good thing that we can do, we've already given us a ton. So I challenging you. And

so the ingredients that I when I was thinking about this talk the ingredients or thinking about ingredients, I don't know I'm a foodie, humility, courage, and community and well being, you know, I hope that we all strive to be humble, that we always resist fear that we allow courage to emerge, and above all else, that we root ourselves in community.

And you've galvanized that. And I think of the people that are in your book, too, that we know and I look forward to meeting more that have contributed because I mean, beer get created and huge community kiss Shawna convenes community with her rooted collaborative crystal can winsky Atlanta too. So I'm just like, it's in the DNA. It is of the people that you have locked arms with

that things that well. And so our Canadian community is sisters, to all three of those organizations, like Canadian fundraisers collective, we are sister organization with each and every one of those organizations, and we come together, when needed. But then also, we want to, we are

going to link up all of this in the show notes. And so please go check those out. And Annika, what else can people do to connect with you?

Yeah, people can find me easily at the empathy agency.ca. But also through LinkedIn, both through the MC agency or personally, at any county, you lived

up to the hype, my friend, and I feel like our hearts have grown. it underscores the fact to me that there is much work to be done. And we all have a role to play in this. So let's continue to talk. Let's continue to apply it and let's continue to grab the hands of our friends and bring them along. We don't want to drag them behind us. We want them right next to us in lockstep. So thanks for inspiring us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

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