We believe in functional mental wellness, a holistic approach to mental health, we know that there's hope for those of us who have experienced trauma, even profound trauma. And that's why we created the universe is your therapist podcast, we believe whether you call it God, the universe, source, unity or love that there is something much greater than us that conspires for our good, we envision a world of healing and connection. And we teach you simple, but powerful practices that integrate your mind, body and spirit so that you can come home to your highest self and your truest identity. You are not broken, you are loved, and you can heal. My name is Amy Hoyt, and together with my sister, Lena, we will take you on a journey of healing and self discovery.
And people were saying, so you know, you're going to accept this and you're going to move on, and you're going to find somebody else. And all I wanted to do, frankly, and I'm a kind loving person was punch them.
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode. Today. We are very excited to have Ed Nathan with us. And she has recently well, in the last few years written a book called it's grief. And I had the opportunity to do some reading of that over the last couple of days. And I'm really intrigued by so many of the things, Ed that you have included in your book. So welcome to the show.
It's great to be here.
Oh, we're pleased to have you here. We're really glad. Thank you for joining us.
Absolutely.
Okay, so we wanted to have a little bit of a background from you. I read in your book that you got started in acting. And that was part of your journey. Do you have a short synopsis that you can tell us about that will help us understand how you came to write this book.
This book wrote me actually Okay, so let's get that straight. I had little to do with it. It. It came in through my dreams and through my life experience and through my pain and my sorrows. And it took me 10 years to write this book. And it came out in the at the end of 2018. It's grief, the dance of self discovery is exactly what I went through it, I realized that my own grief and my own relationship with grief was a dance. And people often say to me dance, what are you talking about? You can't put the word dance and the idea of dancing with grief. But yeah, you can and maybe you must, because you partner with it. And when you don't partner with it, it becomes your enemy. And you know, when you are dealing with an arch enemy, it takes everything out of you. But when you partner with something, you learn from it, you you understand its dimensions, you understand its richness, and you understand its limitations as well. So, yeah, that's a little bit about
me. That is beautiful. I love the title and the subtitle. In fact, when I saw the subtitle it reminded me of Harriet Lerner's work the dance of anger. Yes. And I was wondering, excuse me, go ahead.
Now her work is just amazing. And I certainly pored over much of her work as I was working through my own anger aspect of grief, actually. So
I also loved how you referenced it throughout the book, there was one passage in particular, that talked about how sometimes grief can take the lead. It can come on suddenly. And that the concept of it taking the lead at some points, but then us always being able to, as we learn and grow and he'll be able to take back the lead as as time allows. And as healing allows. I loved that. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
This dance is a tricky dance, part of the dance is learning that you do have control. And I use the word control not as you know, you can choose when or if your grief responses come in. But you do have the opportunity to decide how and when you're going to respond to what comes your way. So it is an opening for you to really say okay, am I going to align with this? Am I not going to align with this? And I am going to take this on and learn about myself as I take this on. Because whether you want to or not, it's going to be there. If you want it to be there or not. It's going to be there. If you want to hold on to yourself, then it's time to learn about who you are and bring is one of the best ways in to learning about the self.
I love that that this is in the book, I found it very accurate actually. And also very helpful to think about the process of understanding and healing from grief has a journey to knowing ourselves better.
Oh, you know, you said it so accurately. Because we think of grief. And many people are like, Get away from me. You are the pariah. Don't touch me. Don't Don't aggravate me. I'm going to pretend that you're not there. And maybe if I wish it away, you just won't show up and I won't feel this pain. I won't feel this terror. I won't feel so devastatingly alone. And yet, and yet, if you think, okay, so this fear, this place that I'm in could also be a teacher. And I might evolve into something I never thought I would evolve into, I might learn about some aspect of myself, I might learn about my bravery, my own bravery. Wow, or my courage? Or what am I who and what my superpowers are? Then would I have wanted to lose my loved one know what I have wanted to lose my soul as I was bullied or sexually abused? No. And yet, if I had ignored it, and ignored it, and ignored it, it would have taken its toll on my body, and truly it did for many years. But the exploration of it the coming out the taking it out of the closet, and saying, Okay, I see you has actually helped me to be here with you, the two of you right now. Oh, that's lovely.
And I love Amy, what do you think of her phrase? And yet?
It reminds me it's, uh, well, you know, my background, my PhD is in religious studies. So it feels very, almost biblical. Right. And yet, I don't know it feels hopeful, actually. So I do love that. I was struck by your conversation about big grief versus small grief. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about that?
Oh, absolutely. Me. So there's the big G's and a little G's, right. And, and the big G's are those big G's, the loss of the loved one top loss of a job loss of a limb, loss of roles that we have known, like the role of the caretaker, the caretaking role when it has been taken away from us, because we perhaps no longer have that loved one to tear take care of, we're lost. Often. It's like, who am I, and who am I not only as a result of the loss of the role, but the loss of the loved one. So it becomes a double edged sword. I mean, it's like, oh, it's a Whammy, it's really a win. Or, you know, I've lost my child, I horrible. And I've lost my role as a parent to that child, the active role, it's not that the, the role is you think about it is gone, because it will, it's forever there. And the way you carry the child is forever there. And those are big G's. The little G's are, and I know this is gonna sound trite. But for some people, a bad hair day can be a little g, or if you're overweight, and you're trying to get that pair of pants on, and they don't fit. And it means that maybe you've gained more weight, that could be a little g, okay, or you've lost your job. But when all and all of these things accumulate, and they're not dealt with the little G's, they can become victories. And, and by the way, I want to just say that I don't think being overweight is a bad thing. I think that there are lots of reasons why we might want to carry weight, or that we love our weight. And so for some people, it's not a thing. But when you rely on clothing to fit and it doesn't, it can affect you. I really want to state that because I was I had weight on me. And I I know what it is to to have the weight and I know what it is not to so I just wanted to say
as well. I like that distinction.
I really appreciate that distinction as well. So the loss is more about counting on being able to wear a certain article of clothing and yes able to because of the way that our body has shifted now.
Yes. When you have it in your mind that something is going to turn out certain way, and it doesn't, it can create a little g.
Yes.
It's like that done met expectations. That's cool. Have about like, that's right. And events, right? That's right. And as you're speaking, Ed, I'm so struck by how you're speaking about grief is very similar to how we've been conceptualizing trauma. And there's big T, and but there's also little t. So some experts will weigh in and say, Well, COVID is not actually trauma, because people are able to repair it, cetera, et cetera. And yet, we see a lot of dysregulation. And what I would say might be helpful for our field of trauma is to come up with little T vs Big T, some way of speaking about it so that the experiences that don't fit into our narrative are still included, because they can be so disruptive for people. So I really appreciate your distinction. And I think it just really nuances. Loss.
Yes. And, and I love how you, you know, kind of talk about, you know, the little tea, and the importance of the little tea, I don't happen to think we're in a little tea frame of mind here. I actually think that we are in a big G, big T experience, and we don't even know what we're going to be up against. I was part of, you know, a team that went down to the World Trade Center during 911. And I'm not going to go into the story of that. However, what what I want to say is that the aftermath, for the survivors for the family members didn't happen the year after two years after, for many, it was five years. For others, it might have been 10. For others, it might have been 15, because they tucked it away, or they found they found their coping mechanisms. And then there's a trigger, there's that one anniversary, or they're that one song that comes in in a way they've never heard it. And all of a sudden, all of that alignment just breaks up. And they're not feeling that aligned. And I feel like with this pandemic, it's a pandemic, because this is something that's been experienced by all, all people, all people, no matter where they're from, no matter how old they are, no matter what their belief systems are. And we are we don't even know what we don't know. Yeah. And that's the same with grief. And grief and trauma are very much, you know, in a in a in a weave, and we just, we're going to be real hard to distinguish, because I have coined a phrase PTT, post trauma, trauma. And so this post trauma trauma is we're in trauma. And then and yeah, there's PTSD. But I feel that PTSD makes it a diagnosis, like we're sick. I don't know that this is sick. I think that there's an effect that we are traumatized. And it is because of the trauma that is now passed.
I really liked that. And I appreciate that perspective. A lot. Can you I know a lot of people are familiar with the five stages of grief. It's, you know, it's kind of nice that so many people are familiar with it, it means that somehow messages are trickling out to people and they are adjusting their expectations after loss. But you speak of it a little differently. Can you talk about the phases of grief,
I love talking about this. I just because I want to talk about the stages first, and then I'm going to talk about the phases. And the reason I want to talk about the stages is because this is this is for your listening audience. So Elisabeth Kubler Ross was this amazing physician and scientist, and she studied dying. She studied the life of the dying the lives of the dying. And she created these five stages to depict what the stages were when someone was dying, not when someone was grieving. And so often people think that those five stages have to do with someone who is grieving, not dying. And she didn't really develop this for the People who were who were grieving, her stages were very specific and linear. Whereas the phases of grief are not linear. And frankly, grief, the survivors grief, the loss of a loved one, the loss of a limb, the loss of the caretaker role that we the loss of a relationship, divorce, even, you know, losses of, of not only lamb, but sometimes teeth. Okay, hair, you know, these can be big G's, they that these are just they go into the phases, it's not, it's not linear, it's nonlinear. So my phases there are, I know, there are 11, but there's a reason I chose 11 is because I see it, it's my experience, but also because there needed to be space in there for the weave to happen for the weave of all of the different parts of us to coalesce to meet, okay, and, you know, as they are meeting, it is that last phase is called grace, but that grace comes in and out. And there are moments when you reach it, and you go, Oh, wow. So this is how it feels like, and then your anger will come in, and then your depression will come in, and then your despair will come in. And then you might go to the first phase, which I call emotional armor. And that emotional armor phase is that first phase, it's the protection phase, it's the go to phase, we all go there, I see it, I feel that we we all go there, it's where we get numb, I see you both shaking your head, right? It's, it's where we become hyper vigilant. It's where we might get really, really hyper emotional. It's where we protest, it's where we say no, this is not happening. And I'm, I refuse to say, to admit this, but it is, again, it's a resting place. And we go there kind of every time we need, we meet a new aspect within the phases, or some new part of ourselves. Because we need to kind of play with that part of ourselves, we need to say, Okay, who am I in this anger, and depression, or rage or anxiety, and let me go and lick my wounds. So I'm going to go to the emotional armor face.
Beautiful. I love that is. And I remember reading, and I don't have my copy in front of me. But I remember reading about masks, and being so taken with those because instead of pathologizing masks, you talk about them as sometimes they are helpful and necessary. And I really loved that flexible thinking around that. You know,
we all have masks, right? And they're they're kind of like roles, if you will, we have many different roles that we play, but we also have the masks. And the role is one thing the mask is I see it as something different, although they can be seen as working together, or, you know, working as a cohort as a team. And, you know, so I might show up to work, and I am in my my work role. But my mask is stay away. My mask is I'm in pain, right now I will do my job. But you need to, you know, really like keep your distance. On the other hand, I might have a meeting and I might really have to show up, I am still in the role of I'm worker bee. However, my mask is, of course, I'm going to present and I'm going to have a smile. And and I'm going to be smart and intelligent. And I'm protecting my vulnerability or my grief. Or I'm protecting the fact that I might feel like I'm just gonna break down. So the mask goes up. And if you feel oh, I think I'm gonna break down or there's a trigger and the sense of smell can be a huge trigger and you smell someone's perfume or cologne and you go oh my god, it reminds me of a time trauma or a person grief. And you put on that mask and then you say to yourself and it happens quickly. Okay, I'm going to put I'm going to put my my grief and my reactivity right now into my magic box. I'm going to close the magic box. I'm going to make a date with my magic box for later because I don't have time for what it what I'm feeling. So you've got the mask, you've got the roll, and then you go back and you you know you Go home, and maybe you've got the mask of parent, the role of parent, but the, and the mask might be, I'm going to do as much as I can do, and I'm going to love you up. But I don't have as much to give. Right, but I am still very much in the role of parent, that is
a great way of distinguishing those. And then going back to the 11 phases, would you say that the masks are part of that first phase part of the emotional armor?
I think the masks can go throughout that and the non linearity of those 11 phases. You know, I think that there can be grace. So let's, let's look at Grace. Okay, let's look at Grace. So, you know, grace is a wonderful place to land. It's, is I don't really ever talk about acceptance. When when my when my partner died, and I was 27 years old, and people were saying, so you know, you're going to accept this and you're going to move on, and you're going to find somebody else. And all I wanted to do, frankly, and I'm a kind loving person was punched them. So you know, this kind loving person just really wanted to, like go after them, like, how dare you say this to me, I'm mourning, this, this, this man, I'm mourning my loved one, you know, and, and so you know that coming to that grace is, is a place of, I can breathe, I can be okay, but there are people around who may not be ready for you to be in grace. Oh, so an example of that is, let's say you were in a relationship with someone who no one knew this, but they were cruel to you or violent to you. And there secretly is not that you're happy, they're gone, but you're happy, they're gone, because you're safe now. And you're safe in a way that you were never safe. And you couldn't make the moves that you needed to make. And, and secretly, you actually, you're, you're happy. And I speak to this and, and so there's a there's a grace, there's a relief. And you can't share that. And so you must, must wear the mask of Yeah, I'm so sad. I'm so sad. But underneath that, yes, you are still in your mind, kind of trying to figure out what you're going to do now that you're free.
I was just thinking of caretakers who are of course, devastated by the loss of the person they're caring for. And at the same time, there is a sense of I don't want to say relief, but there's, there's less physicality to what comes next. And how we don't have space in our public discourse, to express that. That would almost seem like a betrayal. And so I love how, again, how you're nuancing this with the complexity of loss, that it can be horrific. And it can be non horrific, depending on a lot of different things.
That's right. That's right. You know, it's so true. And, you know, I never have really thought of the nuance of, of, of how I present this or even the perspective. So thank you for for bringing that perspective in because I'm always learning. And it is the idea of being able to find your people or your person who you might be able to share truth with.
I know after a particularly difficult losses, and I'm especially thinking of my friends who have lost children, there is a fear of people around them engaging in that loss and that grief, and so people will tiptoe around the conversation, people will tiptoe around saying the name of the child. How as someone who is in a support network, how can we be a wonderfully sustaining support for people who are are going through that and honor that grief without letting fear drive our responses?
One of the best ways is often to follow their lead. You don't have to take the lead. You can follow theirs.
That is beautiful. I love that. You know another thing I was thinking of EDs you were speaking about the phases of grief in the mass is there's a cultural ideal we have that authenticity is really the litmus test for how, how emotionally healthy you are. Right. And Lena and I have been talking about this lately, because I think authenticity is so wonderful. And it's not necessarily the utmost measurement of someone's emotional or mental health or well being. Thank you. Yes. And so as you're speaking, I'm thinking, Oh, this is so wonderful, because there is a sense of shame is too strong of a word. But when we wear a mask, there's a sense that I'm not being authentic. Is this, okay? And what you're doing is, to me, you're de stigmatizing the need for these masks. And it's okay,
we we need the masks, okay. It's it's, I don't know, anybody who doesn't have them. So, you know, it's, it's not about, do we, or don't we? We do, it's just being able, we don't even have to self identify them, you know, but they're there. And they're there for good reason. You know, I'm not going to go home to Chicago, and go to a high school reunion, where, you know, I knew a lot of people who weren't so nice, and not have a mask on. And that mask might be a mask of maybe a little pomposity or ego or, you know, you can't get me now you know, and, and it's still my mask, and it might be a little flirty, or it might be, you know, a little you know, like, like, I'm here because of you. And thank you. Thank you so much for all that terrible stuff that you did to me. I really appreciate it. Cuz I mean now. So, you know, is it a mask? Sure. Do I walk around like that? No, not at all. And yet, you know, I learned a lot about grief and trauma from early on. And, you know, it walks with me, it's just a matter of how am I going to partner with it. I also want to just say one more thing, this authenticity piece, this is the first time you've heard me use that word. In our entire interview, I think we need to be careful about something, an idea that is used over and over and over again. Because like a really good french fry, when you have it the first time and the second time when it's served. And it's nice and hot and crunchy. Wow, it's really good. But you know, as the meal goes on, it loses its heat, and it loses some of its crunchiness. And then it doesn't taste as good. And I kind of feel that way about authenticity. Like, we use it and we use it and we use it and then does it lose its meaning? Does it lose its crunchiness? Does it lose just how good it tastes? Or how we savor it? And are there other ways to define our personal best?
That's beautiful. I, I think that authenticity in recent years, has been used as a way to kind of whip ourselves into shape. Like I have to be authentic, and I must be that kind of thing. And I love that you are not pathologizing the idea that we have to have these different ways that we present and different roles in our life. And that doesn't necessarily mean that we're being duplicitous, or disingenuous. It's a way of getting through a certain moment in time in a certain situation, given the experience that we've been having, or have had recently.
Absolutely, yes. And the other part of this, which is really exciting, is that in terms of of science, in terms of the the way that we look at a person and their their personality development, we want to see that they're, they have many different roles that they have in their lives, and that they're able to be spontaneous with those roles. If someone only has three roles that they are involved with in their lives, I'm going to be more concerned with them than someone who's got a lot of different roles that they are involved with. And that would mean that they probably have a lot of masks, but that also means that they are spontaneous and that their brains are agile enough to have that spontaneity which is so very, very, very important to mental health and when We are grieving. When we are, have the traumatized mind, that's when, especially in, in, in when the trauma stakes are high, and the evolution of trauma within one's life has unfolded over time, because of, of traumatic events, because of developmental traumatic events, because of sexual trauma, that, you know, that that all of this culminates into being stuck, not having those roles, so accessible, you know, believe it or not, I mean, you're seeing me here, and I have no problem speaking. However, when I am in my traumatic mind, I lose my voice, I literally, I go horse, when I'm angry, and I'm traumatized. I cannot speak. And that's me. And I know how to speak and I know how to regulate my voice. But that's what gets cut off, because that was what got cut off.
Yeah, that makes so much sense as well in terms of the neuroscience, and the region of the brain that shuts down during trauma, Broca's region. And so I love how you're articulating that. And how I just love how intuitively our experiences seem to really mirror what, you know, trauma as a field is still pretty new. And so the literature is, is,
is new as well, right? Yes, yes. And as you know, what's so exciting about this time, right now, it's the brain, our brains are one of our greatest allies, and they can really shift they can really change, they can really metamorphosis, and the idea that we now have, we now have research that backs up the fact that we can form new neural pathways, and that yes, we can have that trauma brain, and it can, it can, it can be right there. But we can also, you know, not cut it off, but we can stop it from filtering through, and we can create just new dimensions and new new wavelengths and new arms and, and, and cut off some of the collateral damage from the trauma. And that in the work of grief and in the work of trauma is just so so, so exciting. It's just, it's, it's so amazing to me, and I'm actually in the process of writing another book, and it is called Sexual grief, the human condition. And the whole idea is that we get stopped, and our development stops, because of traumatic events or grief events. And the messaging that we get about ourselves, can affect us and the way we relate and the way we have relationships. And so we then cut off and there is grief there. There is so much grief for all people and I am using people because I don't want to define anyone. I am just saying all people, whatever that means absolutely.
I see the the emerging neuroscience and the understanding that we have now of neuroplasticity, as immensely hopeful. It makes so much sense to me that you would also be looking at that in grief work as well.
Oh, absolutely. You must, you must look at it. In grief work, you must, because you can get stuck in the cycle of it. You can get stuck in the cycle of the traumatic grief that if you have a loss that happens suddenly and it was a horrific accident or shooting any of the the survivors from the you know, the Columbine shootings or the you know, the school Parkside. In Florida, if I named the school incorrectly, incorrectly, my apologies to all you know, any of these highly highly traumatic events, there is traumatic grief and they are not forgotten. They, they they can't our bodies, remember, you know, our bodies remember. And so that is when trauma and grief, you know, you know really coalesce and they partner. And we must be cognizant of how they, how they, you know, the weave that they that they create in our lives and that they are interrupters, and that we need to find our own cognitive interrupters to to beat them at their game. We're not going to get rid of them. But if we learn how to dance with them, it becomes a much easier task to to live fuller lives.
When I'm aware of when you say cognitive disruptors, I'm also thinking somatic disruptors and the imagery of dance. We know that with trauma, and I assume this is with grief that if you don't involve the body, you're not able to get to that level of healing that we need to to reconnect.
That's right. That's right. And yes, the you know, the cognitive interrupters and the the somatic disruptors, I love, I love both of those. It and actually, it's grief, one of the things that that I talk about, is movement, that and actually they've done tremendous studies, I'm sure that both of you are aware of these studies, that, you know, they gave, you know, kind of a three different they had three different groups looking at depression. And one group they gave meds one group they gave meds and exercise and one group they gave just exercise. And of course, you know, the answer to the group that did the best and for the longest period of time, was the group with the exercise. The next group was the medication and exercise and medication was the last group. So exercise, exercise exercise, and I don't care what that looks like to maybe it's a 10 minute walk three times a day, maybe it's stretching a rubber band, it doesn't matter. Because when you're exercising your body, you're exercising your brain. And once again, you are interrupting what your brain wants to do, which is keep you sluggish.
Yes, yeah. We've also talked Ed about how when we are able to conceptualize exercise, merely as movement, that movement can sometimes take away the brain's resistance to the concept of exercise, and conceptualizing it as movement allows for any type of movement to count as we reconnect with our bodies and our brains and our emotions. Oh, I really,
I yeah, I love that. I didn't, I didn't know that. And that's good to know. So, yeah, the movement movement is just so essential, right?
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Elaine, I don't know if you remember this. When we were in Rwanda. Do you remember the women dancing and singing? Oh, yeah. Grief. Oh, yes, it was so powerful, amazing. So powerful. And you know, this was maybe five or six years ago now. 2017? Yeah. And I just remember, and of course, now doing all this research on trauma. That was the beginning of my academic journey with trauma. And it all makes perfect sense. Again, once again, this ancient, you know, knowledge in this indigenous wisdom, we see being proven by research. And I think it's just so wonderful how movement can facilitate some healing for Absolutely.
And it's, it's also interesting, because when we speak about movement, a lot of people have difficulty doing a still meditation. And one of the things that I love to tell people is, meditation does not necessarily mean you need to be still. I know as a trauma survivor, I stillness. I can find stillness, but not by being still by walking. And by being active. I'm a ceramic Potter. So when I'm sitting at my wheel, and I hear I feel the motion and the rhythm of that wheel, or I'm listening to certain rhythmic music. That is when I'm able to go deep into a state that feels altered. Let's call it meditative. But it is a respite from my other me.
Well, one of the things we love to ask each of our guests because we love to give people actual tips they can use at home. And of course, today we've talked about dancing and movement and so many other very practical tips, but what is your go to tip when you're feeling dysregulated to come back into your regulated, calm? Place? What do you do?
I knew you were going to ask this question. And I don't like to think about how I'm going to respond because it could, you know, it could shift and I want I always like to see where I'm at. I think that the first thing that I do is I think about what my warning label is for that moment. And my warning label of late if I were to say that I had one that I need when I needed one is not in pieces anymore, but still be careful. If I need that warning label, then I know that my, I'm maybe getting a little dysregulated. And my breathing is probably jagged. In that moment. My focus is off, I'm not hearing accurately, and the words are not coming out, right. And those are signs for me. And so I do what I call a soft focus. And I find a point in the room. And I call it the point in the room exercise, whether it's a corner, or of a ceiling, or it's some point on my computer if I'm sitting down, or a threat on a carpet, and I soft focus on that. And I take a breath, and I hold it. Because often I feel in that moment that I'm not able to breathe. And if I know that if I can take a breath and hold it, I'm actually breathing. So I'm giving my brain a message. And then I let it go. And I'm focusing on that on that point. And then when I can start to feel that my heart is regulated and my breathing is more regulated, I do a check in and then come back to me.
I love. Thank you. You're welcome.
Thank you,
Ed, where can our listeners find you give us all the places okay?
They can find me on my website, which is Ed nathan.com. And it is spelled e d y Na Tha n.com. You can find me on medium I write a lot on medium Psychology Today I have a blog. And I'm always doing Facebook and social media Instagram, I haven't done Tik Tok yet, but I'm working on it. And Twitter, and Pinterest. And I would you know, just love to hear from anybody who's listening to here today. And if you have go to my website, what you'll get when you give you know, when you send in your sign up, you will get a free chapter of my book. And if you want more information, just write me and I'm the one who will write you back.
That's wonderful, right? We can't thank you enough. What a wonderful opportunity to hear of your wisdom and knowledge. And thank you so much for joining us, Edie.
Thank you for for having me as your guest I thoroughly enjoyed speaking out both of you.
And thank you for the gift of your time and the gift of your wisdom. This was really enjoyable. I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you want to go deeper on this subject or any other subjects we've covered in the podcast. We are so excited to be launching our signature membership program at mending trauma.com This is a trauma informed mental health membership where we combine clinically effective practices courses and mentoring while putting you in the driver's seat. We teach you how to heal your trauma with the latest research combining mind body and spirit we want to walk you through a healing journey while also empowering you if you have felt this episode is helpful. We would absolutely love if you would go to Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your pods and give us a review. We'd also love it if you would share it with someone you think it might help tag us on social media at mending trauma.com Or at Amy Hoyt PhD, we would love to reshare and also if there's anything we can do to help we would love to hear from you email info at mending trauma.com Give us your suggestions or topics you want to hear about. We would absolutely love to be of more service to you. We're so excited because we have so many good episodes coming up in season two, and we can't wait to go on this journey with you
