It's the winter break. And while many faculty are busy with ongoing research commitments, January term courses, and all that administrative work that got left on the agenda in the wake of the fall semester's maelstrom, hopefully at least some of us are settling in to enjoy some mind-numbing television on these cold winter nights. You know, I certainly have some favorites, among them the long-running British whodunit series, Midsomer Murders, but I know some of my friends and colleagues have recently been enjoying some other prestige television centered on British culture and society. You know, there's Netflix's The Crown, Apple TV's Slow Horses, among BBC originals like Broadchurch, and Poldark. But one show that caught a lot of people's attention in recent years was the BBC studio's show Peaky Blinders. The ultra violent depiction of a Birmingham gang operating just after the end of World War One. You know, I've never seen the show, but I can understand its popularity because who doesn't like to revel in the anti heroics of a heavily accented gang in a gritty period setting?
Today I have the great pleasure to speak with a former student who's currently working on the subject of historical English gangs, but there's a twist. Unlike the depictions we might see on today's prestige streaming TV shows, my guest subject of study flips the script on conceptions of gender and class. Nikki Vietz is a currently a master's student and teaching assistant at University of Maryland, Baltimore County. Her research at UMBC focuses on women's independent involvement in organized crime, in particular shoplifting gangs in London in the 19th and 20th centuries. Nikki has previously published research in the UMBC Review on the entrepreneurship of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu and her smallpox inoculation in the 18th century. Prior to returning to school, Nikki completed her BA in history and political science from UMBC and worked as a legal assistant for the law firm Davis Wright Tremaine LLP. I'm really thrilled to bring you our recent conversation. Let's have a listen, Governor.
I have delighted today to welcome to the podcast, Nikki Vietz, a master's student in history here at UMBC. Thanks for being here, Nikki.
Thanks for having me.
All right. So I want to jump right in because you're doing a really fascinating research project. And obviously, this is a historical research. And what you're looking at is 19th century gangs in the UK, which is obviously something that's piqued my interest, something that, as I was talking to off mic earlier, really kind of strikes me as something that's fodder for a movie script or for some prestige TV show. And, you know, when I think about these kinds of prestige TV shows, you know, the Peaky Blinders or whatnot, you know, these these shows that we've seen, we get an impression, right, if these kind of gangs from the 19th century. You know, tattooed, they're sly, they're armed to the teeth, they've got, you know, fabulous accents, right. But, you know, I was really thinking about this, and most of the time, we get this impression of these characters from movies, and they are pretty much always constructed in our mind's eye as men. But in your research you've got a somewhat different story to tell. And so I wanted to ask you to start out, what are the gangs that you are researching like, and where did they come from? And what is their broader cultural significance?
So I'm looking at one particular gang from the late 19th century to the 20th century. So the gang itself was called the 40 Elephants. And it was an all-female, all-working class gang.
All-female, all-working class, wow.
It's a tongue twister when you kinda like, think about it. And they operated, they were from South London, so they are from specifically, the Elephant and Castle area of South London. And they operated mostly in like the Oxford Street, the West End, the fancy department stores, and they were shoplifting gang. (Dr. Anson: Wow). And so they started roughly in 1870 and they lasted actually for almost over 100 years, to 1992.
100 years. So this is not we're not just talking about the 1800s. This is a game that's been in existence for 100 years. Wow, tell me more. Tell me more.
It's crazy. And so, im sorry, so my research cannot span for a Master's, all those 100 years, (Dr. Anson: Sure), I am looking at give or take their first 50 years, so 1870 to 1926. And so I'm looking at their, three of the key women that are in the game, and how from 1870 to 1926, how these women actually changed the methods and organization of the gang, from the late Victorian into the Edwardian period.
Wow. So how did this gang and presumably some of these individuals you're studying are pretty pivotal players in this right? How did this gang get started? Right? How did this come to be?
So the Elephant and Castle area, South London in the Victorian period was literally the hotbed for all kinds of islands, like everyone is like, Oh, the East End Jack the Ripper murders Whitechapel. But you had a bunch of crime in South London, you had a doctor Dr. Crane that actually injected rat poison into prostitutes. Wow, you had four prisons that were like right in that area. It was just a hotbed for criminality. It was referred to as the meant the lowest of the lowest streets in London. And throughout the Victorian period, kind of ruffian hooligans that kind of emerged. And in one unified group was called the Elephant and Castle boys, also for the s like the elephant boys, because that's a really long name. And they were they were located this tavern and in this tavern, it was a crossroads between the bridges that connected South London to the City of London, and they became receivers and distributors of all kinds of stolen goods. And as the 19th century kind of progressed, and more ruffian gangs emerged, they began to expand their business, they began to do pickpocketing, house burglaries, go into the race tracks. And they realized that we could actually gain access to the fancy West and bars and hotel scenes, if we help to encourage our wives and our girlfriends and our sisters to join us. So for the elephants, who originally called the 40, thieves after Ali Baba and the 40 bees, they were like, well, if the men can do it, and they want us to do it, why don't we do it. So they began this kind of cooperated scheme, where they would dress up in more upper class finery, the women would be kind of the decoys, they go into the bar attract a male, bringing them out, and the elephant boys within rob them. Wow. And as time progressed, the woman realized, and they learn the tricks of the trade, they learned, you have to use fences, and you can't wear the jewelry that you steal. And you have to make sure everything is a close knit family kind of community, you have to know everyone in the game, they actually broke from the elephant boys and started their own criminal organization that was led by a woman and only included women.
So how did the elephant boys feel about this? Were they were they upset about this development, or
Oh, always actually had a close communication because they were family. And it was kind of a way for them to be well, we might not be getting the proceeds anymore from your spells. But if you need us, or we need you, we're family, we can kind of interact. So it was kind of this breakage, I was kind of like low key is cool, I get it. We're like be like allies, you know, in certain way, we'll help each other. And, of course, a lot of that elephant voice dated before the elephant. So it was a little hard to be, you know, real enemies in that regard.
All right, but still, you know, organizationally, these are distinct groups, these are independent operations. And you were mentioning that some of these key individuals, these women, were instrumental in changing the methods that these the the 40, thieves or the or the 40 Elephants, right, were able to use what what developments did these individuals bring that maybe they they were able to conceive or concoct as a result of their particular experience, their particular gendered role in society?
Yeah, so I'll look at to the big women. So you have Mary Karr, she was they call their leader the queen so she was the very first queen, and she ran during the when they were called the 40 Thieves. And so she grew up In the mint, and she grew up also in a like a convent. And she realized I don't want to be a convent, I don't want to be in that. So she went on the street, she became a flower seller. And she realized as a flower seller, you don't make that much money. So who am I am, and by the flowers, you got to be out in the rain and the snow. It's not fun. So she started to pickpocket. And so she got involved in the pickpocketing scheme of the elephant boys. And so she realized, you know, you can go and you can just go in a crowd and pickpocket, but you could also make more money. So she developed this game, it was called the bus fare scheme. And it was her most common scheme, where she would be a flower seller, and or just a random pedestrian on the street with one or the other. And her purse would get stolen. And she'd be like, Oh, my God, my purse was stolen, what am I going to do? And she would like, be crying and try to run after this, supposedly, and it's on the west end. And you have these gentlemen with their upper class attitudes. And they'd be like, are you okay, ma'am? Do you need anything and she calmed, my purse is stolen, how am I gonna get home and whatnot. And he, if everything goes according to plan be like, well, I'll walk you to the bus. And I'll give you some bus money. And it'll be okay. And so using the damsel in distress using the fact that I'm a woman, I can't hunt down somebody to their advantage. They would walk to the bus, and I designated pre designated spot and an alley, she would yell assault, and she would have her fellow gang members go and be like, hey, assaulted her. You were touching her? How could you do this? And to avoid the stigma on himself? He would be like, What do you want? And so they would take a watch, or they would take his money, they basically blackmail him. Wow. So that was her favorite scheme?
Yeah, it's a total subversion, right of the sort of, you know, gendered roles and norms. And using that to the advantage of the criminal conspiracy. Fascinating.
Exactly. And so they would also transition it into the bars itself. And they would have a young member, because he always worked in teams, they knew that they worked alone, things could go wrong. But if they worked in teams, they always had someone to back them up. And so the one member would come, and she'd talked to a gentleman at the bar. And she'd be talking to him and talking to him and to casually take his watch or something on him. And another member would pass by, and she'd give that member the watch, that member would go and immediately fence it, get the money for the watch, come back to the bar, and give that money to the young member that's sitting at the bar, she would then offer to buy a drink for the gentleman. And he'd realize, Oh, my God, my watch has gone where to go, I must have been pickpocketed before I came here. And in fact, they already did it. And you're like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean that. Like, like, I don't know what happens when must have taken it. And he was like, if you move my grandfather's watch, or it cost so much money, and she's like, well, maybe you'll find it. And then the next day, they follow Him, they track him and the next day they meet up and be like, I found your watch. Now give me the money that I cost to buy the watch back for you. And so it's all of this schemes to just get the money from all of these guys in the late 19th century. But things actually changed in the 20th century. And that was partly because they realize these, you know, blackmail schemes, these pickpocketing schemes, the street schemes aren't working quite as well anymore, because more women were actually entering the streets. And the streets were a bit more crowded. And see this a new member, her name was Alice diamond. She realized why don't we use the changes in the urban landscape and target huge department stores and was really mimic that attitude, the accents the dress of these wealthy upper class women who could only afford sell fridges or Harrods or Ganges on the west end. And we go in there. And we work as a team, use some of the tactics from Mary cars, rain and steel, furs, and seal blouses and dresses and then go and finish those items. And so they completely changed from these blackmail, pickpocketing schemes to organized shoplifting, that involve teams of four or five women hand signals. They actually targeted more than one store at a time. And they even started to include cars into some other activities as well.
These are incredibly sophisticated schemes, right? I mean, the description that you're providing, which by the way, I love the the incredible detail that you're able to provide here and telling this story I mean, they've really had a really thoughtful approach to doing this stuff. And did they? Did they get caught? Are there ever instances where their methods failed?
Oh, all the time, like their grades, I mean, are insane. There was one member who was Emily arrested, like every single year, Oh, wow. Part of it, I think there was like a whole, like, under diamond there was like a whole like, outlaw holsters code, like, you must have discipline, you must show up on time, you must come to the meetings, you, you can't snitch on your fellow members. But they also under her especially use a lot of these, like her decoy schemes was, I will assign it who she was, like, 5859, when the average male at the time was like, five, seven. So she was a really tall woman, everyone knows me, if I walk in at all the eyes are gonna go, Hey, I've been arrested before since the age of 12. So I'm going to act, I'm going to come in, I'm going to act like I'm stealing something. And then I want the younger girls that no one knows to come in behind me shoe to steal all the attention is on me. So a lot of times diamond or Maggie Hughes are the really big names that were constantly being seen by police, they actually took the brunt of the being arrested and the criminal procedures, while some of the other members not quite so much.
Wow, that's, that's fascinating. And it speaks to not only the, the way that attention essentially is, is, you know, there's a gender dimension, right to the way that attention is given and, and, you know, the overall kind of scene that you're describing in these department stores or on the street. But also that detail that you've just described, where some of the biggest, you know, most prominent gang members are actually the ones that are taking the heat, or there's a little different than the kind of conception that we might have, about the way that a modern criminal organization might work where those kinds of individuals are the most protected, perhaps, by the hierarchy of the organization from those kinds of, from those kinds of interventions. So, really, I mean, just fascinating stuff. And, I mean, you know, I think about this, this notion of crime, and the fact that these women were collaborating together to do some, you know, pretty illegal stuff. And, you know, it's interesting that, you know, in our conversation, there's, there's this kind of valorization, or at least has kind of, you know, you know, wink winking kind of, you know, a sly smile about the way that they were able to be effective in this way, right. And, of course, we don't want to always valorize crime crime is usually not a very good thing for a society to have. But and when we, when we look in media today, we see so many depictions, and this is why, you know, we kind of begin with this idea of the Peaky Blinders who are whoever right, these are these gangs, you know, everything from, you know, the gangs in New York, and, you know, the, the criminal conspiracies in, you know, the Italian Mafia, all that stuff. You know, we've had so many movies, so much television, that's, that's valorizing this stuff. And I wonder about the sort of lasting cultural impact of the 40 elephants on, you know, English culture, on culture in general? I mean, was there was there a real awareness of this group at the time? Or what's the legacy essentially, of, of this group in terms of both popular culture in England, and maybe even just gender roles in general?
So it's a it's a very big question. So they were very famous between like 1890 and 1926. There is so many newspaper articles about these women. And even within that 50 year time period, their perceptions changed. So when Mary Carr was leading, they were, you know, female Jeffer doors, they were female scum. They weren't the criminals, the worst of the worst. And when Alice diamond took over, and I think part of it is how clever she was as a leader, that she was willing to take the brunt of the fall, and that she really organized the group. Police actually were saying they're the slickest thieves the most clever a shoplifters, the best English criminal organization in England. Yeah, I became from the the scum of the scum to like, we'd have to, like, arrest them, but at the same time, we kind of respect them. Yeah. And then in 1926, there was a big event is called the Lambuth riot, and it was a whole street scene with like bottles flying and houses breaking inside a house. And their popularity in the media plummeted. And reason is because Alice diamond, who was involved in this riot, went into prison and she went into prison for 21 months. And she just wasn't anymore, the gang got rid of her from being clean. And they changed their tactics yet again. So instead of doing organized, shoplifting, and evading the police, they did the infamous, we're going to drive our car into the window, we're going to grab the stuff from the one and then we're going to drive up the typical,
yeah, smash and grab well. So obviously, very different reactions to something like this, which is a, you know, more violent, more aggressive kind of tactic,
right. And so they kind of just Dwayne and so from 1926 to 1992, they were there you heard about them, but they weren't quite as confident, they just didn't fill the papers, the police didn't really write about them quite as much. And they literally dropped. They've dropped really from any public realm memory, I did my research. Luckily, I was able to go to London do research. And I was in South London, and I was like, Hey, I'm doing research on the 40 elephants. And it's amazing how many people said, I've never heard of them, wow, there's a bar, there's a bar called the 40. Elephant, fantastic drinks, highly recommend going to the Scotland Yard hotel, very expensive drinks, but very good drinks, and they want to increase their image. But their bartenders don't even know the real story. They got the women mixed up, they got the methods mixed up. So it there just has just declined. Part of it might be because we think of the men we think of the famous gangsters like the Sabine E's and the kimbers. Or, you know, they just their attention as the years went by Dwayne, so we're seeing a bit of more of an uptake in actually popular interpretations of them. And part of that is, I think, because of the Peaky Blinders show, and part of it is also because one of the relatives of one of the leaders of the alphabet boys wrote a book, the only book about these women, like in all stores, like the only ever thing ever written. And he kind of brought them back into the public imagination. So more people I think, are kind of going on top and learning more about these women. But a lot of times it is more about, oh, look at how many times they arrested or look at the few times that they did engage in violence. And they're not really tracing their change from in tactics and methods throughout the time. But if you look at the overall legacy, I think of female gangs, especially shoplifting gangs, is we can still see it today with increased security in the stores, whether that is the actual armed security guards or the gates that you walk in and out, or the little tags. I think all of the professional shoplifters that contributed and stole a lot of items from the beginning, when all these retail stores became really, really big highs, we can see that throughout time, more security has been added to prevent women or shoplifters like this from getting any of these kinds of items.
Yeah, it's fascinating also, to think about just the longevity of this gang, and how to some extent, our society also has changed and adapted in terms of gender relations in ways that make in the sort of later stages of the gang like this, this overall concept, basically, of an all all women gang doing this stuff, it makes it maybe less remarkable in some way. Whereas at the beginning, right, I mean, this is we're talking about the Victorian era, where lady's roles were extraordinarily, you know, specific in terms of the things that they could or couldn't do. And this, like subversion of those roles is such a shock, I think probably to society that, you know, after after World War Two, and after the sort of fuller inclusion of women into public life, right, maybe these these, these, these practices are maybe not as as jarring perhaps, to the to the society in general. But, I mean, it's incredible that you're describing this, this gang as as existing over those eras and adapting in some ways to the to the prevailing culture. I mean, really fascinating stuff.
I think it's fascinating. I think it's cool, how even like in the first 50 years, like, in many ways, they recreated their entire selves. I mean, they even got more members like between, like, 8090 to, like 1920 I mean, the members exploded, like, I've tracked myself between that first 50 or over like 70 members, from police records, from the newspapers, just looking at who they're associated with, who was involved in some of this. And it's amazing how just massive I mean, it is historically wise, the longest running English criminal organization ever. So it's just incredible how long these women were just able just to adapt and recreate themselves Wow. All around them like their male counterparts, like the elephant boys. They forgot 1930s just gone so it was amazing how they were able to just recreate themselves while the men in many ways couldn't adapt.
Wow. Fascinating. I mean, just just to think about the developments that they are keeping ahead of in terms of social change is is fascinating and all in service of getting the goods. Right. Very cool stuff. So you mentioned you went to London, you mentioned that you've done some archival research. Tell us just briefly a little bit about some of the methods that you brought to bear to make this project succeed.
Yeah, so the conference was really, really fun, and was really scary at first like to go into some of these like bein like archival institutions and be like, hey, I need a reader's card. What do I need to do? So it was really scary at first. But once you get in there, it's really, really fascinating. And I think what really helped is seeing, you know, where Mr. McDonough, Brian McDonald started, you know, his research, like, what did he use in his book? And then I looked at the newspapers. Luckily, it was all online, and see, okay, they were arrested here, they went to this court, they went to this criminal, and they evolved this detective. And then from there, you know, with the help, of course, Dr. Freid, she's been tremendous help. Seeing, okay, what archives in London had the criminal records, what has like the habitual like registers where I can get some of their mug shots, can I get their arrest records, can I get their prison records. So just kind of seeing from the newspaper articles, where they were being their trials are being held actually helped me determine which archive I go into which archive I don't go into. So in total, I have the newspapers, habitual criminal records, mugshots, some court trials, and I have some of their prison transport records as well.
What I love about this is that it reminds me a little bit of, you know, a TV show where you're hunting down like a cold case, right? But you're not actually trying to prosecute anybody, you're trying to get to the bottom of the story of this gang and its origins and its impact. So really fascinating. So when exactly were you in London?
So actually went in this past summer. So I was there in August.
Fantastic. Fantastic. And I assume that that was supported by by research. Did you have a grant that supported that research?
I had a I had the grant from the graduate school at NBC. And I had a grant itself from the history department, which was to help fund some of the research.
Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, having having grants like that available at the intramural level is so awesome, because it allows for this kind of research that otherwise would just simply be more or less impossible, right?
I mean, I was really lucky that Austin, so I looked at the National Archives, and then the London Metropolitan Archives, those were the two main archives that I use. And I was lucky that to take photos, the one I didn't need any, I didn't pay anything, and the other one was like seven pounds. So it wasn't too much to take the photo versus to have them do it themselves, like it was offered on their website, if you can't make it to us, we'll probably some of the research for you. And when you do the cost calculations is actually made more sense. So it was more economically sound to actually go over there, and to have them send it to you, because of the whole transfer currency and the pages and the time it took. So I was really, really lucky. And I'm very grateful to have like, had the opportunity.
Yeah, well, and also as a scholar, I mean, I think that makes a huge impact on the ability to just be there and sort of stand in the places where, where this happened. And to get that sort of tastes right for the archive as well. There's a, there's a book by I think it's called Fouch, called Fukuda dashi for the taste of the archive. And it's it's a really, I think, great sort of foray into the just the feeling of being there and digging through this stuff and, and kind of tracing. Yes, smelling the all the senses engaged in this historical process. So fascinating. So, Nikki, you know, before we let you go, we have a couple more questions. I just wanted to first of all, just tell us a little bit about your trajectory. So obviously, this project is on its way to being a great success. What's next for you?
So right now, I'm actually like honing in on finishing this thesis. I want to graduate next semester, I got one more chapter to write. And so I am like, determine like blinders on ready to go in thinking, thinking about trying to apply this to a PhD program, because I am now so invested in that I want it I want to finish their sword, like I want to get to the very end. So I'm actually considering, you know, in the next application period, to maybe throw my hat on the ring and see what happens.
Fantastic. And I'm sure that you're going to find success on the basis of the incredible work that you've already done. So best best wishes. Good luck to you with that process. Before we let you go. I have one question that I like to ask of pretty much everybody who comes onto the show. And it's interesting, because often I asked, you know, established, you know, professors at various stages of their careers about this question, but I think that maybe you have some insights that might be I'm especially valuable in this regard. And that is to tell us a little bit about advice that you might have for students, maybe at the undergraduate level, who are looking at this, you know, hearing about your story and about the work that you're doing, and thinking to themselves, I would love to also try to go pro in the social sciences, do you have any words of advice for people who are maybe thinking about taking that next step, let's say to a master's program, or to some, you know, post postgraduate work in the social sciences.
So I think I have to my first thing is be able to take criticism, because you're gonna get a lot of edits, a lot of I don't know, if it's gonna work, are you sure you want to do this. So I think to be able to take the criticism and internalize parts of it, and then be like, Well, I don't agree with that aspect. So I'm going to ignore that part. So I think being able to take that criticism, I think, is a good thing. I think both if you want to go into Master's or postdoc, or you want to go into a job, I mean, I was working in a law firm before I came back to school. So being able to handle both forms of criticism is going to help regardless. And the other thing was, I think, is a simplest thing to do. But the hardest thing to follow is to find something that interests you, because you're going to be stuck with a topic for like two to three years, maybe. And if you cannot keep an interest in your topic for two to three years, then you need to change it, because you're gonna be living and breathing your topic. And you need to find something that interests you, even if it seems like a rabbit hole, like I found the 40 elephants to a small, little footnote, and it has expounded. So just find something that really interests you and just go with it, as long as it's doing well go with it, because it will help make it so much more enjoyable.
Those are fantastic insights, I really have to say, they resonate so much with me, as well, as somebody who's been doing this for a little while. You can't cannot, you know, overstate the importance of that sort of Spark, right? That, that, that deep interest that keeps you motivated, even when you know, the paper gets tall, you know, the stack of paper gets tall, and you're, you're starting to feel your head swim a little bit. And I think that your other other point also speaks to the notion that having a great advisor really goes a long way in helping you so yeah, I'm really grateful to Dr. Freud, actually, me Freud and the history department who suggested that you come on and sort of forwarded me this, this information about this fantastic project. And it sounds from everything that I've heard that Dr. Ford is a fantastic advisor for this project.
She is a great shout out to Dr. Froide.
Absolutely. This is the part of the podcast where we do plugs. And so I think we're both here to plug Dr. Froide and all the great work that she's doing as well. But Nikki Vietz, thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a fantastic project. Best wishes going forward, I cannot wait to see the finished product and hopefully at some point in the near or far flung future after you've finished his PhD, maybe we'll see see the book or even the screenplay about this fantastic, an interesting subject in the future.
Thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun, and I appreciate all of your insights and your comments, it's been great.
While most episodes conclude with a Campus Connection, the holiday break means that our intrepid production assistant, Alex, is enjoying some well deserved time off. Alex will be back next time with yet another great segment. Until then, keep a close eye on your valuables and your assumptions about class and gender. And as always, keep questioning
