S11 E15 The Power of Reflection: How One School District Transformed Education for All Learners

3:34PM Jan 11, 2024

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

students

inclusive education

inclusive

school

change

practices

reflection

gen ed

inclusion

classroom

district

work

put

stories

kristen

education

christine

maryland

questions

process

Hi friends, it's Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you've hit play on our podcast called think inclusive, where we have conversations about inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. We often get asked about how school districts become inclusive. Was it because of a group of families that got together and advocated for change? Did it start because of a directive from the State Department of Education, or perhaps it was a school leader who made a commitment to move toward inclusive practices. On this week's episode of thinking cluesive We made two individuals, a researcher and a school leader who are here to tell you about how one school district and Maryland made a commitment to include each and every learner.

Dr. Kristen Burnett is an assistant professor of special education at East Carolina University. She has 17 years of experience working with students with extensive support needs and 11 years of classroom experience. She completed her PhD at the University of North Carolina Greensboro focusing on inclusive education for students with extensive support needs. During her doctoral program, she served as a graduate assistant for the tide center, the OSF National Technical Assistance Center that focused on inclusive education and systemic change. Christine Bechdel is the supervisor of special education for Carroll County Public Schools in Maryland, and has been in the field of special education for 28 years. Mrs. Bechdel is dedicated to equity particularly for students with disabilities, earning a post baccalaureate certification in equity and excellence in education from McDaniel College in 2019. Among many other roles within CCPs Mrs. Bechdel currently serves as the chair of CCPs is district inclusion team. In this week's episode, Kristen and Christine discuss their experience with systems change work in inclusive education. They highlight the importance of reflection and action planning and creating sustainable change. They emphasize the need for multiple layers of leadership and collaboration between general and special education teachers, and they share the stories of students benefiting from inclusive practices and the positive impact on school culture. Do you believe that all children with and without disabilities deserve to reach their potential through inclusive education? If so, you will love Brooks publishing the premier publisher of books and tools on early childhood, special education, communication and language and more. Brooks publishing has been partnering with top experts for over 40 years to bring you the best resources for your classroom, clinic or home. To learn more, visit Brooks publishing.com. To browse their catalogue, read their blog, explore their free resource library and sign up for their newsletter. Brooks publishing, helping you make a difference in the lives of all children. And just for thinking cluesive listeners visit bi T dot L y slash Brooks dash giveaway dash 0124 to put your name in to win a copy of the educators handbook for inclusive school practices by Julie Causton. And Chelsea P Tracy Bronson. We will be taking names until the end of the month. I know I say this a lot. But I am so very excited for you to listen to our guests stories. After a short break my interview with Kristin brunette, and Christine Bechdel. And for free time this week, I'm sharing my conversation with Dr. Burnett students from East Carolina University about what it was like seeing inclusive practices in real life.

Kristen Burnett and Christine Bechdel. Welcome to think inclusive.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me, sir. Thanks for having us. Of

course. All right, so Kristin, I saw a I saw your presentation at TASH in December of 2022. And it was fantastic. And I remember I ran after you after you it was done. And I said, Kristen, can you like, can you tell me what district it was in Maryland? And you're like, No, I can't. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, the reason why is because I'd love to have you on, think inclusive and talk about your research and just some takeaways, because, you know, people are really interested in how we do this whole systems change work. And so then you connect me with Christine. So thank you for being here. And so I would love to ask a few questions about, you know, what your experience was in this work, and how we can start replicating it in other districts across the country. So thanks, again. Yeah. So could each of you explain your role in either the research or the process. So and I don't know who wants to go first. But just like, what your what your role was? Sure.

I'm not part of the research, but very much part of the process. So early on about 2018. We had an opportunity through the Maryland State Department of Education to get connected with the National ties center to get some targeted technical assistance regarding inclusive practices. So we were chosen by MSDE, to be one of one or two counties in Maryland that received that targeted support from the National ties Center. I'm a supervisor Special Education for Carroll County Public Schools. At that time, the work from the Ty's center was focusing on K to eight. So we chose two pilot sites to receive the targeted technical assistance to support our inclusive practices. One was an elementary site, one was a middle school site, I supervise the middle schools for CCPs. So I was highly involved with the target, middle school and their work. So part of the systems change work that Ty's really provided us some structure and guidance about was the importance of having multiple layers of leadership. So having building base leadership with this work, district level leadership with this work and state level leadership with this work, I had the pleasure of being on all three groups, which was a whole lot of reflecting and a whole lot of action plans, but, but it really makes a lot of sense. Because, you know, you need places to kick things, some you know, if some, if you need something at one level that is a little bit beyond what you're able to do, you can kick it up, or if you have an idea that you get from one level, you need to have a space to kick it down. So that made a lot of sense. So since then, since that pilot time, even through COVID, we in CCPs, have using some resources from the National ties center, we have engaged in officially onboarding to our inclusive practices. We have now four middle schools, and four elementary schools that are engaging in this work, and we have earmarked for next school year to include two more elementary schools, two more middle schools, and we're venturing into the land of high schools, which is really exciting, and is probably going to look different. But we're willing to take that challenge, because of the importance, really, for the student and the community and our educators and our system. So.

So one, a follow up question for Christine. Before before. Kristen, I want you to jump in here too is that was the expectation that it would be a phased in approach, like have a couple of schools and then the next year, have a few more schools and then next year, and so like eventually, it will just permeate through the entire district. Correct.

So that's really what we have decided as the as the most sustainable course of action, both with human resources and just systems change. In general. When we try to do things too quickly and don't have the resources and support to do that. Then people end up getting frustrated and then negative about what we're trying Do so we're really trying to be purposeful and methodical about that expansion. And really just put one foot in front of the other, even though with our inclusion group, our informal inclusion groups and our leadership team, just a subsection of that it's so funny. It's almost like we have like a, you know, the little devil saying, like, we can't do this, but with more than one school, I guess maybe that's the angel and like the other side saying, but we have to help all these children all this. So we have to kind of find that balance between being able to be available, but not overextending. So that you can't be available. It's it I think the worst situation for us to be in would be to encourage a school to make a commitment that we cannot support, and them to just again, really feel like they've been left abandoned or holding the bag. So we're just trying to be methodical, but that is definitely what what our thoughts are right now. We're exploring ways to have that sustainability. You know, like, our pilot sites don't need as much, but how can we make sure that we are still, you know, available to them? So in this movement and adding schools, we're sort of figuring out what do we need to do for newest schools? How do we keep our schools that were have started this work years ago, engaged? We've started exploring the idea of having liaisons in CCPs, we have equity liaisons already, so like our ETM education, that is multicultural liaisons. So having you know, something along those lines for inclusion is something that we're exploring.

Alright, Kristen, okay.

I'm just a lowly doc student at the time. No, I'm just kidding. No, I, I did, I was very thankful and very gracious to be a part of some of the types in our work. And I started going to their state state meetings. And then I got closer to my dissertation time. And there had been a lot of work done in MLL, to say, the county name.

I don't know, a County in Maryland,

in a County in Maryland. And in this county, I started to develop some relationships with some of the people that work there. And I asked if they would support me doing my dissertation study about multi level systems change for inclusive education. And they said yes, which I was very thankful for. And I got to spend some time with Christine and a bunch of other people in the district and ask lots and lots of questions about systems change. And, you know, my study was really to investigate the district's multi year facilitation of inclusive, inclusive education services for students with significant disabilities. And I had two research questions that I wanted to answer. And one of the questions was, what did they do to address the need for the change? And what was the impact of those efforts on this change? And so I just dug in, I asked a lot of questions, I got to do classroom observations and interviews and look at all the documents that they've collected over this, you know, time period, it was about that time, I think it was about three years worth of documents, or maybe four years worth of documents, I got to be a part of some of their reflection tools, I got to see them reflect on their process. I don't know if you realize, Christine, but I was at your first ever reflection. The right at the limit was the Roxy, when you did when you first started this work. And I just remember being so excited just to be in the room taking notes. I was like, Alright, this is gonna be awesome. And then I decided that, you know, a qualitative case study would be the best way to really understand because not only did I have these rich interviews, but I also had all these documents, I had their LRE data, I had all this stuff that would tell a really compelling story about how they, how they did it, how they were successful, and And what started as a small change that is now growing and growing and expanding and sustaining.

That that's what I think is so interesting about what you've done here, Kristen, is that you really were like documenting the the change, which I you know, I think we need more of that. I think there are districts right now going through this process, and I wish we could have a Kristen, in every single one of those places. You know, because people need to hear the story is that it's not only it's not just this um Just this dream that can that, you know, maybe one day, we can all be inclusive, like it actually is happening. So thank you for having the the foresight to be like, yes, this can be my dissertation and, and being in that first meeting. So you talked about a small change growing into a larger change. Like either Christine or Kristen, who wants to talk about that.

I think this is a really unique thing about the tide centers process that they did. And I think that there's there cannot be enough said about the process itself and how it was done. And one of the reasons you'll hear me say multi level systems change multi level system changes, because the change effort happened not only at the state level, which is also unusual, I have to say that that is a huge buy in for a state. I mean, that is great. That part, right, there is a big step. So the state bought in and the state actually recruited places that wanted to do this. And their district said, yes, we want to do this, we want to do this, we want we're already doing this, but we want to do it better. And so they had the buy in from the state, but they also had the buy in from the district because the district was like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this. And, you know, and, and then they picked a couple of schools and the schools that they picked, you know, we had, they had some hiccups at the beginning. And then they were able to pick schools that were really engaged. And one of the stories I keep telling about this district is that they were most successful at the middle school level initially, and most people want to start at, you know, kindergarten, you know, and one of the things that was so compelling about what they did is they started at the middle, and at the bottom, so eventually, those kids were all included from the bottom up and the top down, so like they they didn't miss, you know, inclusive services. And now it sounds like they're expanding to high schools, which is so exciting to hear healthy back. But, um, you know, that they had this kind of system where they were, they were able to put it, you know, in action simultaneously. And I know that, that put a strain on, you know, the existing systems resources, but but they were able to do it in a way that was really successful. And I loved how she said, we were really purposeful and intentional, and the people that that we chose, and the schools that we chose, that is that is accurate. That is exactly what they did. They chose places that were already starting this work, and we're ready to ready to move on. And, and they did it. I mean, you know, I know, it's not like it was like magic or anything like that. But they spent a lot of time doing professional development, and working with coaches and getting those systems in place so that it would be successful, and it didn't fail.

And to dovetail on that, you know, the, again, the resources from the tie Center are absolutely critical in our work, but you know, one of the things as well, is that sometimes there was, Well, originally early on there was aired thinking that inclusive practices are a special ed thing. And it is, in fact, if it's anybody's thing, which it's everybody's thing, but if it's but really a bulk of the lift has been in our Gen Ed side, our curriculum writers, our curriculum supervisors and having them make sure that when we're talking about students learning a content, we're talking about every single student learning that content, and having that group engaged in conversations and reflection in thinking about all aspects of educating all kids. That has also been a real important piece of sustaining this work. I as a special education supervisor could get in front of a group of social studies teachers and I would just be that that special ed lady, but when their supervisor is getting in front of them talking about this being important, it's just a different kind of important than if minify said it, same thing, same same concepts, but they need to hear from their own people. That has really been the magic. There are a lot of really exciting things happening this summer that have happened this school year with again, this the content areas supervisors in supporting not just in this other area and thinking not just building the alt version of this worksheet, but in building a process of collaboration to design instruction between gen ed and special ed that's right for this kid and puts this content that you content expert know really well within reach for this student from methodology. The standpoint that you special ed person know very well, that allows the student to access the content in the gen ed setting like that that partnership has been. Just without that this would have been that would have been a deal breaker than this could not have happened without folks from our curriculum instruction side being as passionate about inclusive practices, as those of us in the special ed world have been, I

just want to point out those Curriculum and Instruction people, our general education faculty that that part, it wasn't immediately apparent to me when I was doing the study that that was what was happening. And so those those people are general education specialist in their content area. And they took that those content areas, and they were like prioritizing curriculum and making really sound decisions about the most important part of the curriculum and what would be the most beneficial and really thinking through some of those hard questions about grading and, and assessment and all of those things. Yeah, just wanted to mention that.

Yeah, I think that's really important. And I loved how you said that. If it's anyone's thing, right. It's curriculum instruction. So it sounds like there was a lot of groundwork that happened before a formalized process started with, with y'all, is that right? Or

we started kind of cold turkey, if you will, with the process, so that what we were able to learn from the ties center, they gave us a reflection tool to reflect upon our inclusive practices that exists. So that tool at the time was called The Roxy, which is an acronym for something that I'm not going to be able to recall. But there was a version that the state was appropriate for the state, there was a version that was appropriate for the district. And then there was a version that was appropriate for schools. So we all started with that reflection process. And I have likened it to a giant group therapy session where we're talking about what's going great, and we're honest about what is not. And we're disagreeing with one another in a loving way, or maybe not so loving, and really being honest about where we were. And what we believe is the right course allows each space to organically come up with their own action plan. So when we talk about having work, we're there students who are pursuing a certificate of completion or who are otherwise have a significant cognitive disability in a general education setting prior to going through this, of course, have we improved what the the quality of education that is occurring when that student is in the gen ed setting? Hands down? Yes. So it depends on how we define the work, we I've said if if all we were doing was changing LRE, I could have found my most agreeable parents and had that change in three months time. But what we're trying to do is improve the culture of a school, the community, and you know, capacity of teachers, we're trying to do all those things. And so in that, the numbers may not show that as in LRE data as quickly.

And the toll is now called the rise. And that means reflecting on inclusive. Oh, now I got it messed up hold on. Reflecting on an inclusive system of education, is now what it's called. And it's a reflection tool. And in the US, and I it's not evaluative it. So it's not like evaluating your practice. It's not like a great, it's let's talk about these things she like when she says group therapy. It's like, oh, let's talk about this. Well, this one's a little painful. But we got to talk about it anyway. And they really reflected on their process through through using that tool.

So you mentioned you mentioned Ellery data. And then you also mentioned that the percentages are not as well I forget exactly how you said it. Maybe not as high as or not high as yet. But so because LRE isn't is the is a standard measurement across school districts, right. So, right now you can look up any LRE data For any school district in the United States, and, you know, there may be a district here in Georgia where I am where I'm, you know, taping from who has a 90% LRE, a rating or percentage. And they're still segregating students with intellectual disabilities, because but but the number is so low, that you still have that 90%. Right. But in another county, another district, the number may be 70 ish percent. But the commitment to including learners with disabilities in general education is much more than the district than that has that 90%. So what is your measure of success? Or where are you? Where are you trying to go? And is LRE, even part of that discussion?

So I think Ella LRE is part of that discussion, but we have to talk about it differently. So I think when we talk about LRE, what I have found when I'm talking with my administrators and educators about that, is that that makes them somewhat panic a little bit. For, for whatever reason. So especially when we're talking about LRTA, lrgb, lrec. So we had a lot of resistance when we wanted to put LRE as part of an action goal, because it was important to everybody to kind of rest assured, because Special Education exists on a continuum don't.

I'm laughing because this was such a point of like, I remember this being just really stressful for everybody. They're like, well, what if we, if we put that percentage in there? Are we locked in, we have to achieve that goal by this point in this day, and this time, you know, but that's part of the beauty of their process is that it was a reflection, and then they had to act on it. And then they had to support it. So. So they were like, Yeah, go ahead. I guess the principal at the middle school at the time, she said, Okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna, all right. I'm trusting this is gonna work. And I'm gonna put this percentage in, but I don't know, I don't know.

Right. And again, like, like I said before, the the work was more qualitative in nature, the training the mindset, all those pieces, like, like I said, if we just wanted to focus on LRE, we could have again, found our most agreeable parents made those decisions and called it a day. But what we've done is used a couple other measures, that is the LRE percentage, because lrgb, if we had a student move from 45%, in gen ed to 75. That's okay. 75%, that's a big growth, but you're still lrgb. So we wanted to make sure that we were capturing somehow that growth in the gen ed environment that might not have picked on the LRE code of A, B, and C. The other thing that we're doing with our targeted schools now is a tool that was sort of cooperatively developed, and tweaked over time came from somewhere else, but we're kind of working on it. And I'm changing it called the MPL, which is, stands for membership, participation and learning. So using that information, for couple reasons, one to have information about improvements in those three areas when a student is in a gen ed setting for membership, participation and learning. And also to keep people honest, like, you know, we can feel really great about this student, again, breathing the same air as non disabled peers, but like, what does that look like? Okay, so maybe, maybe we, you know, maybe they're a good member, but the the learning still or whatever the case might be, so finding those other measures to celebrate and feel good about, I think is something that's been really important.

I think another thing that they did that, that may not translate into numbers, per se, on the LRE stuff is that they were so strategic and how they did this and how they rolled it out that they started with math, and science. Now I'm gonna say the wrong thing. social studies, science, social studies, sorry, science and social studies. They started with science and social studies, and then now are adding math and ELA. And the reason they did that is because they're like, Okay, let's start getting the supports in place. Let's start getting this thought process figured out. And now now that we have these processes in place, and now we know how to adapt instruction, we can do all this modifications, we can have a repertoire of resources. Now how are we going to now put these students in ELA and math and how are we going to conceptualize that and work with our curriculum people to do that and to prioritize curriculum and all of those kinds of things. So they really were very strategic and how they were Hold it out. So that might not translate into time on LRP, we would think of it because they were so strategic and how they rolled it out. And I thought the way they did it was really smart, because then they got to be experts at adapting instruction and doing all these things. And now they can translate that into other subject areas. Right.

And I think that allowed us to, to really emphasize the collaborative process. So we're using, you know, for example, science, like how we're having a lot more conversation with science to really kind of define our collaborative process when we are, you know, plan planning for a student with significant needs, so that we can replicate that collaborative process and share that with our social studies. People share that with our science or our math people. So again, that that one foot in front of the other has been really helpful in sustainability.

What? What about your master schedule? Like how? How did that roll out? As far as you know, if you're just focusing on content areas, and you started in middle school, like middle school schedules are notoriously just complicated in general? Yes. Yeah. So like, how, how was it that you were able to just focus on content areas rather than the entire school day? It? Is that is that make sense?

I think they were already doing the electives. Is that correct? You're already doing?

So you mean students with significant cognitive disabilities? In the Gen. Ed, for the related arts? Yes.

So there's a little piece missing, I think, is that they already had had sort of jumped started the mindset with their with their district, they had already started thinking about this, even though they didn't start the formal process until they worked with the Thai center. They they had they be done by already presuming competence in those related arts classes, then there, then they wanted to do more. So I think, okay, yeah, and lead them into like, Okay, now, they're doing great in these classes, we need to do more, and we can do more, and we know that they're capable of so much. So let's also try these content

areas. Well, so. So here's a kind of related question, because I think that there's, I think that including learners, especially with those extensive support needs in arts classes, you know, like music PE, Pe is not art, but you know, what I mean, like that the specials, electives, connections type of things. That seems to be more accepted, I guess, in some districts. And so, I feel like a lot of times, this sucks, or like, Well, we were doing inclusion. You know, like, I mean, they're, they're in art, they're in music. They're, they attend all school wide events, like, what else you want?

But Isn't that so cool? That they were recognized like they they were like, this isn't enough. This isn't enough to do that. You know? And we know that these students are capable of so much so let's let's let's put them in science and social studies, which most people I feel like I agreed to your point like with the with the specials are like, oh, yeah, we could do some specials. But they chose height from social studies, which most people are probably like, oh my gosh, like they picked not that they didn't pick easy things, you know, they picked right I think challenging,

um, to be hard on us as well. So when we did some reflection when Yes, a student with significant needs was enrolled in PE in the gen ed setting, but when we did our reflection, you know, we had two kiddos in wheelchairs and when the kids were in the field playing soccer, the students in wheelchairs were sitting in the parking lot with their instructional support staff doing something else. So really, again, part of those hard questions we had to answer is really defining what we meant with that membership participation and learning so yeah, this kids on my roster for being in Gen Ed, but how am I meaningfully doing this? Yes, this student might be an art but if we have them in the back of the room coloring SpongeBob all day because it's their preferred class and everybody else is working in clay. So that really inclusion so asking those hard questions, and challenging kind of what we were patting ourselves on the back for was just part of our growth that that we have had. So,

so it sounds like this reflection piece was like you wouldn't have been able to do it without it. Is that right? Believe

it It's a critical, critical component because it does one thing or does two things. In my opinion, one, it allows you to reflect and really identify the nuances of the work that you need to do. And secondly, it allows your action plan to be homegrown. I am going to guess that no school based staff is excited for another initiative to come down from an external force the central office and tell somebody you must do this. And you must do it this way. So this reflection tool is only about what's going on in the four walls of your school, you identify your areas of strength and need, you identify how you want to tackle and make make whatever you're doing today with respect to inclusion better tomorrow. And then the step after that that home grown piece is critical. And really what at the central office, we're now kind of finding the most important things that we do is make sure that people have funds for subs, hourly, time and materials. And shocker, simply knowing that is enough. They didn't use the funds, they found other ways to incorporate time to collaborative planning to make, you know, use of the materials that they had already. But they didn't. But I think that is almost like a safety net that those funds for for the schools. Again, over time, they might need to use them. But But I think again, that the the reflection tool allows this to be homegrown, which I also believe is critical. So the process of reflection, and the development of the homegrown action plan through the reflection are the two prongs that are essential.

And I mentioned this in my presentation as well, I call that a contextually based process, they're using their own context, to reflect to action plan and to support their students. It's not, it's not the Thai center coming in and saying, Hey, this is what you got to do to make your changes. There's nobody saying that they're saying, you reflect on your own process. So you reflect on your own processes that are making this happen or not happen. And then taking that and looking at what action steps are going to be pertinent to make the change happen. And then supporting those action steps through, you know, funding, if that's the case, or through this multi level system that has the support from the state, the district and the school level? Or is it using, you know, those internal and external supports? So they bring, maybe they have to bring people in? Or maybe they already have those people there already, as she said, have grown that are there to support inclusive Ed. And they're they're leveraging their own stuff like they are they already have it they already know. And I think there's something so powerful in that because they're, they're talking about themselves. They're talking about a place that they generally love and care about that they want to succeed. So how can they reflect on their particular school and their particular processes to make this better? And nobody is going in and saying you must do these initiatives? There's no, there's no thing like that.

It's interesting to that as some of the middle schools actually, I think all the middle schools that are working with, they had the idea to loop this work into their own school improvement plan. So again, as a principal, if I had told them, You must put this as part of your school improvement plan that would have been received very differently than if they come up with that themselves. There's just a lot of power in that. But ownership.

The reflection questions, though, are they come from somewhere, though? So there's some sort of like, a shared understanding of what we're talking about when we're talking about inclusion or inclusive practices, right. So speak a little to that. Yeah. So yeah. So how would you like? Yeah, so what,

what a rise, the rise tool, the tool that is used for reflection, is based on hundreds and hundreds of other tools that have been developed in the past. It's developed based on research, hundreds and hundreds of research articles. I was a part of all of this work where we're developing this tool. And so I didn't I mean, there still was a huge team of people. This wasn't Christian. This is a huge team of people developing this tool. And, you know, we have experts like Dr. InDeck, Dr. Tom, that that came in, and they've used tools in the past and they wanted to tweak them and bring them up to this century in the state and to bring them up to the most current and relevant research that we have. And that's where the rise tool came from. It's years and years of prior tools and research that was done to create this tool. So it is a out inclusive education, the rise tool is about systems change, it is about changing your system from maybe it's about reflection on your current system to become more inclusive. And, you know, from that tool, they look at the areas that they that they perceived as areas of where they wanted to work on. And then they created an action plan from that, that reflection. And no one said, no one ever said, Oh, you're not doing this, right? Or you're not doing this, right. It was a, oh, we're a one on this, like, we should probably work on that, you know? Or, or what do you think, out of all these things, what will give us the most leverage to change the system. And they could look at, you know, five different areas of perceived weakness and say, Hey, these are the out of all of these things, this right here is going to give us the most bang for our buck, this is the one that's going to make the most change. And interestingly, in this particular situation, the state, the district and the school pick the same thing they reflected at, they reflected on their process, and they all chose the same thing. That wasn't on purpose. It just happened, that they reflected and they it was like a funnel, you know? And so that clearly shows that they all perceive the same reflect kind of reflected in all their processes.

And did you think there? Could you share what that was?

I don't know if I have the exact Do you know, what do you remember?

I don't remember the exact same thing. But it's interesting, because as we have on boarded schools are its schools tend to identify the same critical pieces as part of their action plan. Usually, it's work on mindset. Usually, it's work on collaboration. And usually it's work on developmental development of materials for instruction. What's really interesting is that every school tackles those same exact things in a completely different way. That's right for them and their school, which is great.

Yeah, yeah. Because in that

reflection, reflection tool should be available. At some point, it should be, you know, like, anybody can use it. But the problem, the hard thing is like having a facilitator who has been through it before, who can ask those hard questions, and really get into the nitty gritty and asking questions.

So people love stories. So is there any other any stories that come to mind? Whether it's a student, a teacher, that you're like, wow, this really sticks out in my mind, when I think about the changes that happen in Carroll County. This, this is an example of it. Christina,

I really want you to tell this one story, I don't know if you're going to tell it but see what

I'm probably not going to, I don't know which story that is. But I mean, there are lots of stories, but I am going to I'm going to generalize to a lot, many of the stories is the the benefit to non disabled peers that were really, we weren't expecting, which was just more of an additional bonus. So we have found at all of our sites, that there's always a handful of students, non disabled peers who had attendance issues were often disciplinary concerns that have found purpose in supporting their peer with significant needs in their classroom, and have turned around and become rock stars in this work for us. You know, there's definitely a peer piece to this inclusive practice, that is really not different from peer support. When we think about gen ed to Gen Ed, non disabled peers, peers support each other, that's what we do as humans, right. So I think, you know, these students who really just were lost, and did not find a whole lot of value in school and show that through their attendance and behavior have found a different purpose and have really turned around that has been true in some way, shape or form in every single school, from a student with significant needs, supporting their non disabled peer in doing a presentation because that peer had a lot of anxiety. So we had the student with disabilities holding the hand of the student without disabilities to provide him moral support, because that's what his mom did for him. From you know, again, these I could just go on and on and on, but just you know, that that bonus, that's not quantified anywhere. You know what I mean? But those things I think, again, just really support the overall All improvement of school culture that this work does, it's just it just makes, it just makes sense. I'm not sure Kristen, what story there's so many.

So many? Well, there's one that she didn't share. But she, someone that I interviewed may have said, So, someone said that there was architects that came to build a new school, and they're going around, and they were like, Oh, this is gonna be, you know, your special education classroom is gonna have a bathroom. She said, None of none of that, we don't do that anymore. We don't need a special place for them, they are there within the school, they are just where the school is, they they are not, they don't need this special place. Yet, maybe we need a place that we can, you know, you know, change diapers, or whatever. But we don't need a special place for them to be they don't need a special classroom. This is our school. This is everybody's school. And another story like that. One of the students was described as having a lot of behaviors. And you know, everybody always asks like, how do you support students with significant behaviors in these special education classes. And it turned out, they put it, they were surprising to me, they put him in a class that also had a lot of students with behavior. So I was like, oh, no, this is going to be an interesting story, where's she going with this. And she said, when he started coming in, it raised the bar for all the students in the classroom, they all started behaving better, because they knew that they needed to be a role model for him, and that he was a role model for them. And that, that, just that he elevated, she said that she, he elevated the rest of the classroom, because they all needed to be on his level. And just just the fact that that's such a barrier for a lot of people behaviorally, and that his behavior improved, and so did theirs. And I just, I love that story. And conversely, you know, I do want to say, like, you know, I got to see both, I got to see self contained, special ed. And one of the special, or one of the special education classes I went in, they were watching the Olympics, and it was like their social studies activity. And then I went into their social studies class for sixth grade. And they were working on hieroglyphics. And it was such a like, it's, it's so different, you know, the expectations and what they did, and it was the same student, but you know, working on totally different content, you know, for social studies, and the teacher showed me the things that she had adapted for him, and the things that she had done, and purposely made it funny for him. Because, you know, translating hieroglyphics is probably not what most people would consider as a fun activity. But she made it fun for him, she made it so that it had jokes at the end. So that he was he was cracking up at the end, because he was doing his own, you know, like he was he was it was modified for him to laugh and have fun with it. And there was just, I can't even tell you countless examples of modified instruction and accessibility for all students that that had been truly thought about and prepared for them. So they weren't just going into the classroom, unprepared. They had their stuff just ready and ready to go. And they were just part of the class. Yeah. There were some classes I went into, and I was like, I don't even know who I'm supposed to be observing.

And I think that's, that's a common story as well. So when we have external people coming in to do observation, for whatever reason, you know, there's no longer a tell, you know, maybe there's support staff in the room, but they're in the back of the room kind of there, you know, as needed. You know, there's not a cluster of students sitting around a support staff is kind of the tell. So you're like, I got nothing, I don't know which which student has significant needs, everybody's raising their hand, everybody's got, you know, so it's, which is really, that, to me, that is a very much of a telltale sign of inclusive practices. So we've had a lot of stories to have teacher growth, you know, as teachers are adapting, maybe adding more visuals for this particular student to make that content accessible and having this aha, that, wait a minute, this is good for all kids. So what started as the modified version of a slide deck is now everybody's version of the slide deck, because it just makes instructional sense. So it just, I mean, there. We could do a whole other recording session on stories. I feel like so.

Thank you for sharing those. I think. I think people you know, people like to see themselves in the stories, you know, that they hear and so I think they're really, really important. Well, believe it or not, I think we covered a lot of the questions that I, that I put in there. But is there anything else you wanted to share? Before we wrap up? About, you know, like going in, in this conversation? You know, what's just one thing that you want to make sure listeners walk away from, you know, with?

Do you want to go first, Kristen,

I think more one thing. I think one of the most important things that if you engage in any sort of systems change effort, it takes a lot of time. And you have to be willing to put that time in. And it's going to take much longer than you ever anticipated. But most systems change literature says it takes between three to five years for systems change to occur. And I think it's important to keep that in mind when you're doing a change effort, such as this, because you might want to give up, you might want to know when to stop doing this work. But it is the best work. And that's one of the things that kept saying over and over again, this is the work of best work. This is where they belong over and over again, this is the story this is where they belong. And that that reflection action planning and support process that this contextually based based on their individual area, cannot be undersold, that is another piece that I think is absolutely critical if you're going to do real lasting, systemic sustainable change. And that sometimes you need external critical friends, like, like the Thai Center, our just an outside expert to come in and help you evaluate your practices and to think about how to do this, you know. And just like we've said before, I think that whole turd traversing of disciplinary boundaries, that ability to go from this being a special ed effort to a general education, change effort, this being an education change effort, this is what we're doing for all students. It's just so critically important. But that would be what I would say.

Yeah, and just and I agree with everything that Kristin shared as being important, and I think, you know, when I'm trying to get a point across, I always try to start with the why. And so I think the why in this is that really we in the in education are creating what ultimately is going to be our community, and we don't have secluded Walmart, we don't have special ed MacDonald's we don't have, you know, the out of Gen Ed, you know, target or whatever, that we it's important that everybody students with and without disabilities, adults, parents understand that our communities are made of all kinds of different people. And so when we cultivate that from entrance in school, and are supporting that, through our educational practices, then we are in fact improving our inclusive communities that we're sending kids into. You know, we know there is research MSD put out a technical assistance bulletin that one of the most significant indicators of post school success is the time that you spend in the gen ed setting. So we need to really work on on building that as an appropriate opportunity for as many students as possible to promote their post school success.

Right after the break. It's time for the mystery question.

Boom, boom, do you secretly envy my dog mine he's the best like, like, the best like, Oh my God, even a secret. I tell him. What kind of dog do you have?

I have a golden doodle. Okay. We also have a lizard and lots of fish. And oh, frogs. One of my daughters is really into reptile. So what

kind of lizard? It's

a leopard gecko.

Okay, we have a we have a bearded dragon.

She really wants a bearded dragon. I don't know where we would put it. We just don't have any more space.

It was a class pet. When I was still in the classroom, and I got it in 2000 I'm at this point 2016. Yeah, she doesn't 16 And he lives at home with me now he was in the classroom. And when I left the classroom, he was in another teacher's classroom. But then when I left the school system, I brought him home. So he's home with me now. And I have a black lab who's on my bed? Completely, completely, like

all right, Christine, what kind of dog do you have?

I have two months. They're both just over a year old, their litter mates. I was not wise and got two puppies at the same time, because I felt like I was needing to choose between my two children who each wanted a different puppy. So I'm like, well just get them both. Not recommended. So they're just months. They don't look a thing like Oscar and Omar. They were the the OH group. So they both have Oh, names at this shelter that we got them from. So Omar looks like a Coonhound, like a red Coonhound. And Oscar looks like a sharpei. So I think I think, you know, there might be a couple different baby daddies. But um, their ways? They have I think, some maybe traumatic, you know, early years, but working through them. But yeah, good times, Oscar and Omar.

Oh, interesting. So yeah, whom do I secretly envy? I don't know if I have a good answer to that. But I like the idea of an of being an animal. I don't know I'd pick a dog though. Maybe like, maybe a bear. Because then I could sleep all the time. That'd be nice. Right? And then just wake up and then eat, and then go back to sleep.

I'm here for that life. All right. All right.

You have you have bears in North Carolina, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Is that where you live? Kristen?

I do I live in I live in North Carolina. I mean, not where I live? Well, there may be I mean, there are in eastern North Carolina, where I'm from and where my university is. There are bears. But I don't. I don't know that I've ever heard of one thing where I live now. And Christine, we're not done collaborating, because I'm coming to see you guys again. I'm

very excited about that. That's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be super awesome.

Tim, I want to know about these other places. So I think it would tell more stories.

Kristen, and Christine, thank you so much for being on the inclusive podcast. We appreciate it.

And I'm happy to thank you heard of it.

That chime means it's free time. And this week, I'm taking you back in time to the TAs conference that was held in Baltimore this past December 2023. Okay, let me set the scene. It's Friday night, right before the poster sessions were scheduled. And earlier that week, I had run into Kristen at the conference, and we were talking about podcasting and inclusion stories. And Kristen was like, Oh, my goodness, you need to meet the students I brought from East Carolina University, they have some amazing reflections about seeing inclusive practices in real life. And so I got my recorder, and my microphone. And here is what that sounded like.

I'm Kristin Burnett, I'm an assistant professor at East Carolina University, I brought my students to TASH because they saw inclusive practices for the first time this year. And they got to see a County in Maryland, and they had never seen inclusive practices. It's not something that is very accessible in North Carolina. So this is the first time and we had to go across many states to see it done in action. And we had to write a small grant to get them to be able to go on this trip. And so that was free to them. And this conference is also free to them because of this grant through VCU is an internal grant.

And so we're at the task conference, and you have a poster presentation, right? And so what is what is on the poster like what like what are you sharing the

cluster? So their poster presentation is about pre service teachers, perceptions of inclusivity are of a variety of placement settings. Because in North Carolina, the only option for them is to see a self contained class. So I took them to the self contained class. And the first thing they did when they got back was they did a little video blog. I took that information. I put it in these quotes. And I've found some interesting themes. And one of the things they kept saying was that it was pretty good. It was pretty good. And then I took them to Maryland and they saw inclusive practices and they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't know this was possible. This is amazing. What are we doing in North Carolina? Why aren't we doing this? Hear, and just a lot of changing perceptions from what they thought was good to what they know now is the right thing. And that inclusion is a human right for all people. So

awesome. Okay. And so we have the students here. And so we'll just go, we'll go from left to right.

My name is Madeline Pierce, I am currently a student at East Carolina University, studying special education. So for the trip for me, when I kind of experienced inclusion and what it was, was after I experienced and I like kind of decided and brainstormed was it felt a lot like common sense. Like, it was something that felt so right. And like, what was really needed, it was just supposed to be like the norm. So it was really weird to kind of go in and see how different it was from how I grew up seeing it and how, like awesome it was to see all the students and kids like collaborating along with the teachers and how each of them, you know, we're like, oh, like, we're not quite there yet, or we don't like and but it was awesome to see that they were putting an effort and it was something they were really passionate about. And the thing that I said to Dr. Brunette after we were done was I hated her, because now I'm still going into schools in North Carolina now, and I'm doing practicums. And seeing students in the settings who aren't able to have like inclusion. It's upsetting because you see the like their potential and how much they could actually benefit from it. And they don't have the opportunity to. So I think it's like a motivator. And it makes me want to be an educator in that way and kind of provide that for them. So that was my standpoint, I just thought it was common sense. Basically,

uh, my name is Mackenzie Whitmore, and I'm a student at East Carolina University, also studying special education. Before coming to Maryland, and like actually seeing inclusion, I knew it was a thing, but like, was never able to see it in North Carolina. My mom's a special educator. And it's just like, he's always been self contained. Like they're in their own bubble and their own island. And it's like, sometimes it feels like, they're not even a part of the school on this because there's so secluded from everybody else. And then coming to Maryland and seeing like there wasn't even a separate setting classroom, it was everybody was in the same classroom receiving the same instruction with slight modifications and supports. And like, like she said, it was, it feels like it should be common sense. It should be practiced everywhere.

My name is Kinsey black, and I'm an undergrad student at East Carolina University, also majoring in special education. When I came to Maryland, My initial thought like when I saw these inclusive education practices, I was like, wow, like it's it's such a culture shock. Because I come from North Carolina, obviously piggybacking off of these two, everything is so secluded and segregated when it comes to special education and to be able to come to Maryland to see like all of these kids that are, they would be in a secluded setting in North Carolina to see them. In an inclusive setting in Maryland, I'm just like, this should be implemented everywhere. It shouldn't, it shouldn't be taking this long. And there shouldn't be people fighting against it. Because it clearly works. I want this practice to be implemented across like, not even just the US but like, internationally, too. It's just this is so important. And I feel like everybody kind of needs to get on board with these inclusive practices. So

hello, I am Natalie Brown. And I am also a student at East Carolina University studying Special Education adapted curriculum. And as everyone else has been saying, Before coming to Maryland, I had never seen inclusion taking place in person. I've always heard the definition of inclusion, what it should look like. But honestly, before taking this class, I feel like now I have a deeper understanding of one inclusion is that I didn't really have an understanding of previously. And so after taking this course and seeing everything in Berlin, I now know that the main roadblock to inclusion is mindset. And I feel like now I'm inspired to change this mindset because students with disabilities deserve to be and the general education classroom, and I, it's honestly my quote, I say this every time it makes me really passionate about inclusion and I can't wait to implement it in the future school that I'll be teaching at. And I can't wait to get started. I feel like now, after seeing this and learning from Dr. Burnett and this experiment experience I now know where I can start have an idea of how I can get it going in schools in my county. So I'm really excited.

My name is Cassie Hagler, and I'm a student at East Carolina University also studying special education. I think the biggest thing for me was that in North Carolina, you know, we never see anything like this. And so I thought inclusion was kids being in a typical classroom for lunch and recess and maybe going into reading class and sitting in the back. That is that's what I thought before getting go to Maryland. And then when we got down there and seeing kids in the typical gen ed classrooms, and some of them even on grade level and doing the same materials with their peers collaborating, it was something that you cannot unsee and going back home. It's something that you want to go into the classrooms and just get started on right away so that these kids aren't losing these learning opportunities?

Well, Y'all have a great bunch here. All right, I have one more question for you. In fact, I heard this today in the tie center in the roadmap presentation. But a lot of times you hear, Well, that might work in Carroll County, Maryland. But you don't understand we have different kids. Our kids are different. Our kids have real significant behavior issues. You know, they're not able to do the work. So if, like, let's, let's pretend you are in your new school, you have your teaching job, and you are ready to implement inclusive practices. But your administrator is like, I don't know, that might have worked in Maryland, but not here in North Carolina, not here in South Carolina, not here in Georgia. You know, it's, you know, so what would you say to them, I will just you don't have to say your name. Again, just whoever wants to?

Um, the way that I kind of thought about it, as you're asking that question was I, I think it's like an invalid argument. Because you could also argue that every student is different, like you being an education, you're going to find like a diverse amount of students. And even like, if you do have a student that has very real issues, or is deemed you can't learn, actually, Dr. Burnett told us a story about how she went into an observation. And the teacher said, Oh, this, the student can't learn, he can't sit down. But she found a way to just even do like CTD trials with him, which is constant, constant time delight. And he was able to learn the span of like, what, three words in 10 minutes. So I think it's also being open minded to finding ways that aren't just sitting down and teaching a lesson and being able to kind of provide that content, the modifications for the students. So like what Natalie said earlier was, you know, changing the mindset and kind of removing that roadblock. So I think you could argue all students are this, like different. And then also, everybody kind of has the opportunity to be modified and learn, but they're all going to learn differently.

So if my future administrators gave me this argument, I would probably tell them that it's obvious that they don't want this to work, because they're not going to give it a chance. And they have these personal biases that are making them have inaccurate ideas about these complex learners. And so I would say there's nothing I can tell you at this point, but I can show you.

So I kind of heard this argument earlier, but like, kind of with a different setting. It's not necessarily that it's not going to work. But it hasn't worked yet. Like it's like, is that big? The word yet? Like what can we do to change it? Like, yes, it's working in Maryland. It's not currently in North Carolina. But what can we do? Now to change it? So that what they're doing here in Maryland, we can also be doing in North Carolina? And if it doesn't work the first time? What can we change to make it work?

Anybody else?

I think arguing. First of all, if an administrator is arguing that inclusive practices won't work in a school, I think they probably shouldn't be it in registrate. Er, to begin with, because, I mean, it's inclusive education, I feel like it's just it's a right for everybody to have, you know, it's not, it doesn't matter, like what area you're in, I mean, modifications and adaptations, like new ones are happening are being created every single day. Like, there's such a wide range and such like a broad spectrum of those adaptations, and they can all be implemented into general education to like, just develop response methods or like help students with disabilities, like engage with classrooms, interactions or like discussions, and there's just so many possibilities. And so I think it's honestly, not trying, it's kind of like unacceptable. I mean, it may be hard, but everybody starts at one point. And so I feel like just even giving it a shot and just keep working on it and keep working on it. It's going to be a process, but just tell them, It's honestly it's kind of unacceptable. And like I said, they shouldn't be an administrator if they don't want to draw.

For me, personally, I love proving people wrong. So if I heard that, I would say, Well, let me show you come to my classroom, maybe in a week or two, and I'll show you how these kids can be implemented in a general education environment. And like they've said before, it just takes adapting materials and being open minded and changing your mindset to make this work and it 100% can work as we've seen in Maryland, so I would just say, I'll show you right now and make a change.

Thank you all for your time, and your thoughts really appreciate it.

That's it for this week. Thanks again to Brooks publishing for sponsoring this episode of thinking cluesive Love thinking cluesive Here are a few ways to let us know. Rate us on Spotify, or leave us a review on Apple podcasts. And if you're listening to us on Spotify, check out the q&a prompt in the app and leave us a response and we'll share it on the socials. Another way that you can show us your love is to donate to MCI even with a one time or monthly donation so that we can keep making things inclusive and our newest podcast inclusion stories. To donate, go to bi T dot L y slash MCIE e dash donate or visit MCIE.org Are you ready to elevate your educational landscape with MCIE partner with us in shaping educational systems that foster high levels of engagement, a sense of belonging and evidence based instruction. For each learner success is our shared goal. Learn more@mcie.org think inclusive is written, edited sound design mixed and mastered by me Tim Vegas is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by miles credit additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works. I will now I can't remember I think I read I I've been going through I have so many preparing for so many guests that I forget like what I've done and what I haven't done but I'm pretty sure I read was it your dissertation?

Probably yeah, I

found it. I tracked it down.

While you're probably like the only person besides my advisor who's ever gonna read that.

I read that to

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