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Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, are you just not so excited today?
The day is here. I'm grinning from ear to ear.
Yeah. I mean, we have been so excited to talk to the Ford Foundation, who needs really no introduction, but the humans that are gathered here are pouring into these programs. They're going to break down a lot of their work. Really honored to have both Sarita Gupta and Martin Abregu with us, both from the Ford Foundation. Sarita is the vice president of us programs, and Martin is the VP of International Programs. Let me tell you a little bit about Sarita. She's the VP of U.S. programs. She oversees the foundation's domestic work, including civic engagement and government, creativity and free expression. You know, we love that future of work and workers, technology and society, disability rights and gender, racial and ethnic justice. She joined the foundation in 2019 as director of the future workers program, bringing more than two decades of experience working to expand people's ability to take collective action to improve their workplaces, their communities and lives by creating meaningful solutions. She's a nationally recognized expert on economic, labor and political issues affecting workers, and is widely acknowledged as a key leader and strategist for building coalitions and policies that both protect and advance the rights of workers. Sarita, it's just such an honor to have you in our house, and I gotta brag about Martin for just a second here. Martin is Vice President for international programs, andas such, he works on designing and implementing a vision for the Foundation's work at the global level. He seeks to respond to global drivers of inequality by bringing new voices and perspectives into the international arena. He works with teams in the U.S. and around the globe, including more than 10 regional offices and six international programs. And so he joined the Ford Foundation back in 2000 serving as a Program Officer for human rights and citizenship in the Andean region and Southern Cone office based in Santiago, Chile. And since then, he's held various positions at the Foundation. He was appointed program vice president in 2013 and vice president for international programs in February of 2019 It goes without saying, it is an incredible honor to have both of you brilliant minds and hearts in this space today. So as we get started, I want to just kick it to each of you and kind of tell us a little bit about some formative experiences that led you into this work. Sarita, I want to start with you take us back to growing up into what led you to this work today.
Sure, first of all, thank you, Jon and Becky, it's so exciting to be here with all of you and in this conversation with my team. So where did it all begin? For as long as I can remember, I've been a change maker since I was in elementary school, and I think it really started as being an immigrant child growing up in Rochester, New York is where my family immigrated to, and I grew up in a city at a time when Kodak was down sorry downsizing, and I was seeing a lot of change around the economic well being and sustainability of the community and neighborhood I was growing up in, and I think it just shaped a lot of my thinking. So for years, I have worked on and addressed issues of economic, racial, gender and equality, and really for over 20 years before coming to the Ford Foundation, a lot of my work was rooted in the workers rights and labor movements, and I'm really thrilled to be at the Ford Foundation today, where I have an opportunity to look at the work from a different perch and make connections and weave connections and really continue to address inequality, since that's the focus of our work at the Foundation, in a way that really aligns with my values, my passionm my experiences.
So good. I mean, Martin, take us back to some of your experiences growing up and tell us about how you get connected to the work you're doing today.
Well, you know, adding my thanks, it's great to be here and to have the opportunity to have this conversation with with all of you and and, you know, since Sarita started at a very early age. I will do the same, I guess, you know, to me, it was incredibly important, the fact that, you know, I grew up under a very harsh dictatorship. So basically, you know, going to school was extremely challenging, no liberties, no nothing. And, you know, but during my teenage years, everything changed, right? Like, you know, I started a high school in my home country, Argentina, when the highest the height of the dictatorship, and by the time I was done, we were already transitioning to our democratic government. So that transition completely shaped my life, and the fact that one of the most dramatic signs of progress were these trials against the juntas where all the human rights violations were prosecuted. Of course, it was kind of natural that, you know, you would study law, because, you know law was such a powerful tool for change back then that, you know all of us that one way or another, wanted to be part of that transformation went into law school. So, you know, law school, human rights, criminal law, all of that was at the center of our life. And those were the, you know, that was the path that took me in this direction. So, you know, I started working as a human rights lawyer many, many years ago now, and somehow I end up working with the Ford Foundation, but that was a long time ago, and you know, my path continued to evolve, to become this person working now at the global level, which is something that I never dreamed about when I started doing that very basic human rights work at the local level. You know, 35 years ago.
I just have to say, you know, Jon and I have spent our careers in nonprofit on the healthcare side, on the education side, and we have so many listeners here who are either on those front lines, whether they're forward facing nonprofit or social impact support agencies. And I think that the Ford Foundation for those of us seems like such a white whale, so so so big, so mammoth. And the reason I love this question so much is because I feel like I just saw little Sarita and I just saw little Martin and and we, we are also, I would say, venture to say everyone who listens to this podcast, were those kids that said, Oh, we want to change the world. And we were all shaped by these different experiences. I mean, Jon and I growing up in Oklahoma as teenagers during the Oklahoma City bombing and and so I love that we can come in and our shared humanity and talk about the things that really matter to this world. And so we've got Sarita on the domestic side. We've got Martin on the international side. You both are running massive programs, tons of people, tons of intersectionality, and I want to start with you. Sarita, let's start like on the homeland front here in the United States. For those of of our listeners who may not be familiar, can you give a little bit of an overview of sort of the programmatic work? And we'll start with you. And then Martin, we're going to kick it over to you. And we would just love to know, where does your focus area? What are you seeing? What's resonating like? Give us whatever you want to give the space is yours.
Great. Thank you. Well, the Ford Foundation works to end inequality through our U.S. programs by tackling three systemic issues, an economy that serves the interests of the elite, unequal access and representation within government, and cultural norms that reinforce persistent prejudices and inequalities. And so our U.S. program strategies are guided by the principles of building economic, political and cultural power within the movements they support, and we do this by recognizing that social movements are connected and intersectional, ensuring that our program areas don't operate in silos, and are being strategic about who and how we fund so our the program arenas that fall under U.S. programs, there's six of them. There's our U.S. disability rights portfolio. We have a gender, racial, ethnic justice portfolio. We have a technology and society program, a future of workers program, a civic engagement and government program, and our creativity and free expression program, and all of these programs fund organizations that are accountable in the communities they serve and have the potential to become key actors in their fields. And we do this by providing flexible, multi year support to these groups, aiming for impactful, long, lasting change. So that's like the big picture, meta picture of what we're doing. And really on the U.S. side, we have a deep commitment to building an inclusive, multi racial democracy in which people can truly thrive.
Great. Thank was so dang succinct, and I'm like, you had me at creative, creativity and free expression programs and gender equality. Martin, what about you talk to us a little bit about the international side?
Sure, and you know, this is our work as a foundation is very much aligned, both in the U.S. programs and international programs. So we also work to address the same drivers that that Sarita was describing, and we work in many of the areas that that Sarita also identified. The difference when you think about international programs is that you know, if we understand that these drivers of inequality are global in nature, right, you definitely need to have an impact at these global systems. But the challenge though, is that, you know, if we are going to have some a real impact in these global systems, you need to make them responsive to people on the ground. So our work as international program is to actually, you know, connect people on the ground, people working at the local level, with these global systems that are actually shaping their lives. So all our work in international programs is about those transmission bells. Let me put it that way. How are we connecting up and down? You know, global systems with people, with global systems. And so in that sense, a lot of the work that we do is about building that infrastructure, because that connection today is not happening, because there is not such an infrastructure that is allowing people on the ground to be part of these global systems. So, you know, building that infrastructure can mean different things. Can mean, you know, supporting, you know, people already working at the global level, but ensuring that they are bringing these new voices. Or it could mean creating new capacities in the global south to ensure that you also, you know, have the people prepared to jump into those opportunities. Or, you know, it can be about actually, you know, developing the local knowledge that we need to influence the these global drivers, so that infrastructure can take different places, but it means, at the end of the day, doing a lot of what Sarita was describing, supporting key organizations with multi year grants to ensure that they have the resources that they need to, you know, to develop this new kind of thinking that it's about ensuring that, you know, we are reimagining global systems to be responsive to people on the ground.
I mean, what a gift to have such brilliant minds and hearts powering this work. I just am really taking it back. Because let me go back a few months. You know, our community that surrounds this podcast is made up of change makers that are tired of talking that they want to be the they want to be the change in the world. And Darren Walker's book was selected among that group to say, this is one of the first books that our club really tackled. And I think, you know, one of the through lines of that work, obviously, is like, how do we channel philanthropy to really upend the systems that are holding us back. And I think of like, the way that you're approaching this work, and centering direct community on the ground that has the solutions is so core to that work. And so I'd love to hear your lens on how you really think about building coalitions across sectors, because it's not just going to be a nonprofit that's going to have the solution, it's not going to be a government, it's not going to be the private But together, we can come up with some of these solutions. So what does it look like for your cross sector approach, and how you're kind of tackling some of these issues? And I'll start with you, Sarita, on the domestic level.
Yeah. Well, you know, I think building coalitions are so key to the work that do so much of it is about like so I described U.S. programs, I talked about the six thematic areas. And so much of the work that we try to do is actually weave connections between these various fields or these ecosystems of organizations that we support. So what's the connection between the tech and society field with the future of workers field, or what's the connection between our reproductive justice and gender equity work with democracy work? You know, but really looking for the ways that we can authentically weave not just our analysis, but also the relationships of our grantee partners, so that they can craft new, innovative strategies that have the kind of impact and lasting change that they need. So that's one way that we really think about building coalitions. The other way we think about it is really the relationship as you were getting at, and I know Martin will certainly speak to this as well, but the relationship of different stakeholders. How do you create change? Well, you need change makers on the front lines, but you also need them to be in relationship with government, and you need them to be in relationship with the private sector and much more. And so the idea of, how do you build and support grantee partners to build the kind of multi stakeholder tables that will make change? And sometimes, at Ford, we are simply supporting our grantee partners to do that, and sometimes we're asked by our grantee partners to play a role in helping to connect the dots across stakeholders, which we do. And then the final thing I'll lift up is the importance of partnering with and mobilizing funders, other funders and other resource mobilizers, certainly in the U.S. context, this has been really important. It's one thing to say we should connect fields. It's another to actually put money behind that and support those efforts of collaboration. So, you know, in the last few years alone, we have been able to seed some really important collaborative funds, like the families and workers fund that was born out of the COVID 19 pandemic and economic crisis. Or the Care Fund, the care for all with respect and equity fund, which was really in response to partners in the field working to really strengthen a care economy in our understanding of care issues. Or our justice and mobility fund that was really focused on bringing together art and criminal justice reform work, and so there's so many examples like that, but those are the different ways I think about how important it is to build these connections and these coalitions and to make sure that they're really resulting in in actual outcomes that make a difference, ultimately, for communities that we want to serve and support.
Okay, I gotta jump in here, because I think what you just said was so important, and I want to double click on it, if not just hit the rewind button for like, the last three minutes, and please listen to that again, because I do think one of the things that holds the sector back is this siloed nature. We kind of work on a vacuum, you know, community by community. And we had a trend this year that was, if you can activate the one, you can grow the movement. And it's this notion that one to one can equal three when we're united in what you talked about early on, in our values, in the beliefs and the things that we think are important, and the coalition and movement building piece is the great unlock I feel like, for impacts right now. And so it can't be just talking to your donors. It can't be just talking to your board members. We've got to get out of these echo chambers and link arms with each other, because that is how great movements are made. And again, we can't just talk about this. We've got to put some activation component on being the change, getting out, doing the thing, being brave in the way we speak. So I'm just very obsessed with all of this. And Martin, I want to kick it to you, and I want to hear your lens on this from an international perspective.
So, you know, this is such an important conversation, because, you know these words, it's all about system change, right? And if it's about system change. We really need to think about the system as a whole. And the system as a whole is a very dynamic organism, right? It's like the system is not about, you know, rigid players or anything like that. Any lasting change needs at least three things, right, the ideas, the players and the means to institutionalize change. You know, if you don't have the ideas, you know you, of course, you are going to be running like in circles, etc. But ideas are not enough. If you actually do not build the players, the players who are going to be the champions of these changes. Of course, you know you are not going to be able to to succeed in pushing for your for whatever change you are seeking. But ultimately, you also need to institutionalize those changes, because we have seen many that you achieve something one time and two years later, you missed that the goal. So So you actually need to be thinking at all these three levels all the time. And if you're going to be thinking about these three levels all the time, of course, what you need is more than one player or more than a bunch of players working on isolation. What you need is, like all of these players working in some kind of synergetic way. So some of these coalitions could be very, you know, within Ford they would say some of these coalitions could be very specifically within one thematic area. But some of these coalitions necessarily need to be across thematic areas, because you need to bring knowledge that, you know, it's dispersed across the board, but I but, you know, but that's why it's also extremely important to understand what is the role of the grant maker here, right? And I always want to think about the grant maker as a producer, right? Like we have something that others do not have. We have resources. But if you're going to put together a successful movie out there, you need a star, you need a director, you need a good script, and you need other producers. You know you cannot be the only producer. So at the end of the day, our work is to actually ensure that those people who need the resources, because they already have a good idea, can find a way to those resources. But at the same time, you need the stars, the people who are going to be, you know, leading the change. And at the at the end of the day, you will need all these other partners who are also going to be contributing resources. So when we think about change, change will never happen. You know, in isolation, it's always part of a very dynamic organism, and we need to be responsive to that dynamic organism.
Martin needs his own TED Talk. Can we all like that was so good. I just, I'm sitting here in the awe of you both of just the wisdom juxtaposed with the humility it, it honestly gives me a sense of hope and idealism. You know, in this, in this world, in this weird time in history that we are all standing in, and we believe that story is this great connection to humanity. We think it grounds us, because when you can hear something, you relate to, you connect differently, you lean in more. And so Martin, I'm going to pitch this question to you. First, can you tell me about a time where you were able to experience some level of generosity or celebration of philanthropy that has really stuck with you in your life. It doesn't have to be a big moment. It doesn't have to be an adult moment, but I would love to hear your story of generosity.
You know, this is, this is definitely a difficult one, and I and because I also want to link this question of generosity to responsibility, right? And the most I would say difficult moment that I experienced as a grant maker was also a moment that really gave me, you know, made me realize about the opportunity for change that we can lead and, you know, this was many years ago when I was a program officer working in the Andean region, and we were visiting an internally displaced community in Colombia, you know, you know, I have visited several of these, you know, very poor communities around the world, but you know this specifically, this specific community was really harsh. It was a very challenging place to visit. And we were there. It was, it was a few of us, not a bunch, but I would say probably three, five people coming from the foundation and some other organizations, not from that specific community. And we got there, and the entire community, you know to start, started to follow up, and congregated around us. And you know, you know, we were going visiting, and you know they were coming with us, and they were talking to us and explaining us things and etc. And you know, there was this very little kid. It was like five years old, I would say that was coming with us all the time, and he was actually looking at me with such attention. And I said, like, I said, like, you know, what is he looking for? It's like, what? What the thing? And, you know, back then, believe it or not, I was much younger. I had longer hair. I had a, you know, a beard that was more robust than what you see right now. So imagine someone younger, longer beard, etc. And at some point this little kid looked at me and he asked me, are you Jesus?
I wondered if you were gonna go there.
He's like, are you Jesus? I, you know, honestly, I want to run away from this situation. I saw like, you know, this is way too much responsibility to me. Like, I cannot live with this responsibility. But at the same time, it was such, you know, strong message that about the responsibility that we all have as grant makers, in terms of the expectations that we can create, but also the opportunity that we have to make a difference. Of course, we were not going to change those people's life in the way maybe this little kid expected, but at the same time, it was clear that for that community, our visit was incredibly important, and that they have all these their hopes associated with what can what we could do together. So so to me, actually, you know, as I said, that happens after a few years, I joined the foundation. I was still learning, but it definitely shaped my entire career. Because everything I do, or every grant that I think, I always go back to that moment thinking, okay, what is the best thing I can do to you know, to you know, to make the most of that responsibility that those communities have on us or, have put on us.
Goodness, my friend.
Sarita, what about you? Story of kindness or generosity?
Yeah, well, first of all, let me just say this is the first time Martine and I are doing a podcast together, and it's so fun. And I'm just Martin, I will forever have that image ofyou now with the beard and long hair and everything. Thank you. That's a little gift that I get to carry with me. Well, I guess what I the example that I would live like to lift up is actually okay. This goes back to what Martin was talking about around system change, and although he and I represent bodies of work that are domestic and international, we actually also really look for opportunities to connect across U.Ss and global. Because, of course, our systems are not siloed in that way. And so in that context, one of the most powerful moments I experienced was when I was serving as the Director of the future of workers program. And just think, think of it this way. I started in November and March, the global pandemic hit and the economic crisis. And I was, you know, trying to figure out, what do we do in this moment to meet the needs of millions and millions of workers, not only in the U.S. but around the world, who are really going to struggle, and were struggling. And you know, a lot of my years of organizing was really rooted in supporting workers who are often invisible in the broader economy. I worked a lot in the worker center movement along with the traditional labor movement. And I say this because at the global scale, that's even more profound. Yet so many millions of workers work in the informal economy. And so one of those moments of feeling really affirmed for the decision to come to the Ford Foundation and to do this work, and to feel the awesomeness of the responsibility that Martin described was when we were able to make a $25 million grant to four incredible networks rooted in the informal economy, mostly women workers. These are global domestic workers, street vendors, global waste pickers, home based workers who during that crisis so easily we could have repeated history in terms of continuing a pattern of these workers not being included in recovery policies and not being included when thinking about the kinds of social protections that the whole world was talking about. Yet these were workers that easily could be sort of set aside and being able to actually make a profound investment at that time that supported their ability to build their capacity to grow stronger, to have voice and demand a voice around the table, going back to global systems, around whether it was the ILO or other global systems where they could make their voices heard in a powerful way, just meant the world to me, and it's a feeling. It's like that warmth, and again, the awesomeness of that responsibility to make sure this isn't just a one time deal, but that we're really investing in the ongoing sustainability and resilience of these really important networks, which I'm happy to say we've been able to do, and so that I would lift up as a moment that I think will forever be enshrined in my memory as just an incredible opportunity, and then getting to meet some of these workers over the years since then, and getting to hear, you know, just what they've been able to build and do, not only with those resources, but through the partnership in a broader sense, has really been incredible. And I just am in awe of these incredible workers on the front lines who risk so much every day and are making tremendous change in their industries, their fields, their communities.
Little Sarita would be so proud of you. I know she would be for making that move.
Yeah, what a heck of a first couple months on the job too. My gosh. I just Yeah. I mean both of you, the connectedness you have to your work, and the meaning and intention and their weight of their responsibility too, is just beautiful to be in conversation with y'all, and as we start to wrap up this Convo, I wanted to ask for your one good thing. We define that as it could be just a secret to success for you, maybe, or it's a habit that you instill, or it could just be something that stirred up and within you in this conversation that you want to share with our community. Martin, I'll start with you. What's your one good thing?
Well, you know, there is one thing that I always tell program officers when they are joining the foundation. So you know, if a Ford you know, if a program officer is listening to today's they will realize it. They will hear it again. Okay, but you know, when you get into a large organization like Ford, or when you really want to be part of a bigger you know, an organization that has these long standing rules and practices. You know, you definitely need to be mindful of the culture of the organization, right? And I don't think this applies only to Ford, but one thing that I read, you know, in a book, as I was, you know, joining for but just by chance, was about, you know, these memoirs for from Hadrian, the Roman Emperor, who used to say, you know, when you really want to change something, you need to present this as continuity, and when you want to continue doing something, you need to present it is as change, right? So basically, the thing here is you need to, you know, it's very challenging to really embrace change at the whole level, so you need to be very careful about how you want to present what you are trying to achieve here. And you know, if you're going to tell someone, oh, I just want to continue doing what we were doing, that sounds extremely boring. So you need to find a way. You need to find a way to present us as change. On the other hand, if you really want to change things, you need to give people something to, you know, to to embrace, something to understand. So you don't want to present change as something radically different. You want to present this as continuity. You can always identify something in the past that explain the kind of change that you are promoting. So when I think, for example, about the world, some of the most innovative work that we've been doing at Ford recently, with public interest technology, right? This is extremely interesting work about how you think about technology in a radically different way that most, you know, corporations out there are doing. How do we present it as the way like, oh, you know, same way that we did public interest law in the 60s. Now we need to do public interest technology. So it's kind of a continuation of these public interest thinking that we start doing in the 60s, which, in fact, this is a radically different project, but at the same time, you have to connect it with the past somehow in order to be able to sell the idea. So this idea of understanding how change and continuity are always linked. I think it's one of the most important things when you are actually in the business of change.
Sarita, good luck following that.
I know.
The last time y'all podcast together, right?
No, no, I really appreciate that.
But, Sarita, I sent you all my notes so you were prepared.
No you know, I think a lot about the complexity of the times that we're in, and it's both difficult and challenging, but it's complex in the sense that, you know, like for years when I was younger, you were sort of trained to think about like, here's a problem and here's the solution and here's how we're going to organize around it and make change. And that's not how the world is designed today. It's not as simple as here's the problem and here's the solution. There's a lot of complexity, and that requires a really different way of thinking about how change happens in this moment. And so for me, I think the thing I hold on to, a belief I hold on to, is now more than ever, how important it is to lead with curiosity, to really lean into curiosity, to challenge. And this speaks a little bit to what Martin was saying, like challenge, if you feel like you know and you are seeing things that you know, ask yourself, what don't you know? And what do you need to see more of to get to that next ring of complexity and understanding. And that means that that requires, for me, like you lean into curiosity, you build authentic relationships to be able to do the kind of networking and coalition work we talked about earlier. And listen to your gut. Because I think this is a moment when we don't all know what the right answer is. I don't know what the right strategy is to win a just an inclusive, multiracial democracy. I have ideas, but really honing and connecting and listening to your gut in this moment. So curiosity, authentic relationships, listen to your gut feel like really good recipes for staying on track and get or getting on track and then staying on track. So that's what I would offer.
If the head of the domestic side of Ford's programs tells you she doesn't know and have all the answers, then friends, the onus is taken off of you. Thank you both so much for this beautiful, humane discussion. I think people probably came to listen to what's going on with the Ford Foundation, but what I think you gave them was this gift of presence and this gift of curiosity and this gift of responsibility and this gift of connectivity, and that is why I think the Ford Foundation has endured for so long, and people are going to want to know how to connect with each of you or with your programs. What's the best way to do that? As we're wrapping up Sarita, I'll start with you.
People can absolutely go to our website. We have great updates on all of our programs, and ways to contact our different program directors and leads. So that's probably the best way. As well as follow the Ford Foundation on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on all the social channels we're there, and we often promote a lot of the work that we're doing,
Anything to add, Martin?
No just, you know that we are extremely responsive to what we get through the website. So definitely go through that so you know exactly what you are, who and what are you trying to learn more about? And we will be more than glad to get back to you.
Well, I want to speak on behalf of people everywhere, thank you for the love, the care, the wrap around that you provide to so many. And I want to thank you both for just your individuality and your humanity and civility. It comes through every single time you open your mouth.
Thank you so much. This has been great, great.
So thank you so much. Becky Jon, pleasure to be here. Thank you for.
Thank you.
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