All right, Laura Birk, welcome to the show. I'm excited to make this happen. It's been a long time coming. You're very patient with my technological issues first day with my new tongue. And I've just enjoyed getting to know you. And I'm looking forward to sharing what you're doing your story and all of your accomplishments with my audience.
Thank you. Thank you, Adam, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. And looking forward to our discussion today.
That's a beautiful thing. So congratulations on Crain's Chicago, HR, notable, as well as the Encore on top 100.
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, this was an exciting and a big award week for the business. And also personally, but no one gets that acknowledgement all alone, have a great team. I'm really, really proud and honored with the team that I get to work with in the business. So it makes it easy to shine and get good results that way.
We'll see what the rest of the year has in store for you. We're still early,
it's still early.
So Laura, tell me a little bit about kind of who you are what you do, what's your elevator pitch?
Okay, so I am a leader who happens to be a working mom, I have three daughters, and I just like to help people achieve their potential and, and I find when you really provide opportunities for people, they step up and rise up and that ultimately contributes to business success. And so I just I love seeing people grow and then turn I get to grow with them.
So
I love that that rising tide lifts all ships. Yeah, analogy there. And is that innate? Is that something the way that you've always been? Or did you have a leader that you worked under at one point that kind of really highlighted that type of philosophy?
Yeah, I mean, I think I grew up in the business, I'm not an HR person by trade, I actually am a business leader and was in sales and operations for 10 years at Morgan Stanley, but they kept giving me all the new hires to train and I loved getting them on board and getting them up to speed. And so it just was kind of more of a passion of mine. And then one day, I thought, if I'm gonna do this work, I better go learn from somebody who actually is a pro at it. And so I knocked on the door of a lady by the name of Mae living, and asked if I could go work for her. She too, was a sales and operations person, and then flipped over to HR. So her and I spoke up a very similar language and not necessarily an HR language, but a business language. And, and I asked if I could come work for her. And she was gracious enough to let me do that. And I did that for several years at Discover card. Yeah, she's still a mentor to me today.
great mentors are so important, as we were talking about just prior to hitting the record button.
Yeah, they make a difference and inspire you and challenge you instruct you, and even the mentee, you can grow from them as a mentor as well. So it's definitely a win win.
Completely agree. So what would you call this chapter of your life?
Oh, gosh, this chapter of my life, I'd probably call it progress, not perfection. The last year has definitely been a challenging year for all of us, especially in the HR space, and really just putting people centric processes and just putting people back at the heart of what we do. And so definitely did not get it All right. So perfection was kind of out the door, but just making progress.
What do they say? Perfect is the enemy of good?
Yeah, yeah, good is the enemy of great and perfect is the enemy of good.
So, yeah, what didn't work out, like what could have been better?
I think there was so much going on, just trying to make sure that our business was not in trouble that, you know, but people around you are losing losing jobs and the economy and all the political situation. And then you layer on top of that all the racial injustice work. And what I'm worried about is just the long term impact that all of this is going to have on folks. And we can't even really think about it or put our arms around it yet, because we're still in it. And so mental health is something I've been thinking about a lot for just people how much they can take and how long they can take it.
So I actually think ironically, that's what COVID has actually done a very good job of highlighting, really kind of putting a magnifying glass on the mental health side of things. Because this has been here, there's a lot of statistics. And actually in Europe, they're ahead of the game. I don't know if you're familiar, but I think it was 2017. They elected a minister of loneliness. And I think now then with COVID, and people being alone, and other people that really weren't suffering from some of these issues now are starting to it's really highlighted the importance of the mental health. So it really, I'm happy to hear that this is something that you're thinking about and looking into.
Yeah. And I would like to learn in this space. It's not, it's not an area of high competence for me, but it's definitely an area of concern.
Well, I think there aren't many people that have high competence in this and I think that's one of the you know, there might be some people that have more than others, but I think that's what's going on here that it's, I don't want to say new but it's relatively in vogue are being brought other people's attention.
So at least being talked about. It's not a taboo topic, and it's, it's okay to not be okay, but making sure we point people to the right resources so that they can get that They need and just supporting and trying to understanding that along the way, yeah.
So you've got a high level of empathy again, is that something that comes natural or something you've worked on?
Yeah. And that's something I've worked on, I would say I don't have a high level of empathy, but something that I've worked on and, and mainly through listening skills. So it's I can't always put myself in the shoes of others. I think that's the definition of empathy. But really just listening to what's being said, what's not being said, is a skill that I've definitely had to practice over time. And so that's really where it comes from.
Yeah, I have an interesting definition recently on empathy, caring about those that you care about what they care about. Yeah, yeah, I thought that was really good. So let's talk about what you do as the head of Human Resources. What's your overarching role,
our president really says the head of HR and the head of finance, or the the right hand and the left hand that pulls everything together. So my degree is accounting by trade, interestingly enough, but my business is the people business. So all things HR, all things, people, all things organization to make sure that we achieve the business results. So it's the wide and vast and change management and communication and then all the typical HR things that you think of.
Does it help? Do you find? I mean, having that business knowledge is it helps you to get that seat at the table and to be able to talk to talk with the business to earn their quote, unquote, respect.
Yeah, yeah, I think so for sure. I mean, I'm kind of one of those nerdy people actually like reading a p&l, I actually like knowing how we make money, I like making sure that we put the people strategy behind the business strategy. So I absolutely helps. And I also think back to the empathy piece, I can relate to them, if they don't see the value of what we're asking them to do on the HR side, it's really just distracting them from what their job is, which is to grow the business. So it definitely helps.
Yeah, you and I've been having these discussions on the importance of a good story. Why is it so important to be able to tell a good story? I'd like to get that perspective, then I'm going to follow it up with a bunch of other questions.
Okay. Sure. I mean, I think people remember stories, people don't always remember theories or concepts. And you can think back to the last conference that you attended. So even if it was a year ago, 15 months ago, think back to a conference or webinar that you attended, you might remember the theory and concept at a high level, but what you really remember and what you repeat often are the stories that the leader share. And I think just being able to paint a picture of those stories and having it be something that is repeatable. That's really what sticks with people.
And, again, that reminds me the Maya Angelou, you know, I've learned that people forget what you've said, they might forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. If you can tell a good story, that's going to help make somebody feel a certain way that's going to stick with them.
Yeah, exactly. If they can relate to it, if they, if it's funny, and they can relate. If it's serious, if it's heartfelt, something that inspires you, or mobilizes you with an insight or a story, then can either cause you to take action or reflect on something or perspective that you might have. And so it's that hook in the story that you're looking for that brings the authenticity, and then people can actually do something or reflect on the story in a real way.
And how have you used stories in your job?
I use stories and a lot of the communication that we do a lot of change, management will use stories, why we cannot stay on status quo, why we need to move from where we are today to where we're going to go, success stories. And I think all leaders need to be able to tell good stories. And in fact, one of the books that we recently did as an executive team together was by Paul Smith, and it's entitled lead with a story. And that whole book really talks about every leader needs to have stories in the back of their mind that they'll tell because you're in moments where maybe you need to inspire your team. So what's kind of your hope story? Or if you're in a setting where you want to recruit, why is this a great place to work? So what story are you going to tell that to bring them in if you're casting a vision as a leader, if you're struggling with something, if you want to show them that you're authentic? What is the struggle story that you're going to share with them back to the mental health. And so every leader needs to have these stories at their fingertips so that they can pull on them when they need to be an effective leader. And I think storytelling is a key part of any leadership development curriculum that you should have.
Is there any training that you do? Are there? Are there trainers that you bring into your organization to help develop this skill?
Yeah, I mean, we've done quite a few. So we actually had Paul come in and do a talk with us. And he was fantastic. But any kind of storytelling. So if you think about TED Talks, or TEDx talks, all of those and why people love TED Talks, is because they're telling a story. Usually they're telling their story, but they're telling stories, and that's what really gripped and grab people. So yeah, I mean, there's a variety of solutions that you can lean on for that.
What makes a good story?
One it needs to be real, or at least if you're repeating the story, it needs to not be something made up Because people can kind of sniff that out. And I think that's why theory. And non practical stuff doesn't always work for people. So I think it needs to be real, it needs to have some specifics in it, because that's what people will remember the specifics. Again, if it's funny, it can have a hook. If it's heartfelt, you need to talk about the emotion during the impact. So there's a variety of different things that can make a great story well, and they all don't have to follow a very specific formula. But you need to have them ready in your mind so that you can pull it out really quickly. And you don't have to overthink a good story.
That's a great point. And are there any stories in your repertoire that you're using? Or have used that you can share with this community? This is an HR community that's listening, these are people these are your peers? Are those with their with aspirations of sitting in your chair one day? Is there a story that you have on how you got to where you are? Or is there a story about maybe something with mental health that you've dealt with? Or having to fire whatever that might be? I'd love to hear your story.
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll tell you a story that I've been telling a lot lately, because Barilla recently won the catalyst award, which is a gender equality award. And so people are like, how did you win the award? Okay,
Another award!
This is an award, it's kind of a flywheel. And when you do good work, then sometimes the fruits of that labor come down the road. But the story that I've been telling a lot lately is, in 2015, I attended the Catalyst conference in New York City, I don't know if you've ever attended that. But a lot of listeners, they'll know Catalyst. It's a conference that's focused on gender equality. And so when we went as our team, and like any good HR person, you know, we're going to a gender equality conference, we're going to go with equal gender representation. And not every company does that. So we walk in, and I have two men and two women that we all went together. So our president, our head of supply chain, has a gentleman, our chief diversity officer myself, so we go into this conference together. And I distinctly remember Adam standing in the lobby, before we walked into the conference, I'm getting my coffee with our head of supply chain. And I looked at him and I said, I, we're getting ready to walk into this conference with about 2000 people in attendance. And I said, this is what it feels like, for me when I go into our company year end meeting, at the end of the year, only in reverse. And I could tell by the look on his face, he's like, Oh, my gosh, I have no idea what you're talking about. Okay, so we walk into this meeting, he is the other he is one of 10% of men in this gender equality conference, which is the exact same feeling that myself and other women have, when we go into typically big business meetings, being the other being the underrepresented group. In a session, I can tell that it was the first time he had ever thought about that. It was the first time he could ever relate to that, that he was the minority in the group. And it was interesting, because it was all on gender equality. And yet it was mostly women at this conference. So you fast forward, you know, to where we're at today. And we tell, and I've been telling this story, because I think it requires those types of insights from leaders to make a change, especially in the DNI space. And oftentimes, they're with you, but they're not with you until they experience it. And then they're really with you. And so I think it takes those little moments to really make a movement at the leader level, especially in the DNI space. So anyway, that's a little story.
That's a good one. And you ever listened to them off by any chance? Or do you?
I don't know, I'm writing that down.
Yeah, yeah, I think you'd really enjoy. And then there's another podcast I listened to, which is all about stories. And I don't know, off the top of my head, but we when we're done recording, I'll give that up for you. But I think you'd really enjoy it, it's powerful to be able to tell a story. I mean, you captivate people, you have their attention, they're interested, I was just hanging on your every word.
And then you give them the hook, sometimes you need a little hook. And for us, we are the first family owned company to ever have won the award. We're the first Italian company to ever have won the award. And we're the first food company with the headquarters outside of the US to win the award. So yeah, when you think back about that, gosh, those are long roads to travel. And that was six years ago. But you don't go into it, saying Oh, and 2021 we want to win this award. You just go into it looking for an insight.
Where does this passion come from? I mean, when we were speaking about a month ago, I forgot the name of the book, but you were reading it sounded like something that you're just really passionate about. You're reading a book, I don't recall the name of it, but it had something to do with diversity. And it's just clearly something that you're really keyed in on.
I think in the past year, especially the racial injustice, just the death of George Floyd and all of the things that were laid on top of the pandemic last year. For me, it's always been something that I've cared about, but I would say has brought a greater emphasis and I don't know if I'm just blessed for time right now that I'm able to read. But I've really done a lot of self reflection and learning and reading several things. So I've been reading White Fragility, and Just Mercy and Sundown Towns. And so just a lot around racial injustice work to really, for myself, I was shocked by what was happening. And, and I'm embarrassed to say, Adam, maybe it was the first time that I was really shook to the core on it. And so I just needed to do my own work and my own reflection. And as a leader, I take that responsibility very seriously. But I also needed to understand what was behind a lot of the frustration, rightfully so. And so it's just, it's been a body of work I've been doing on myself, so that I can try to lead at a greater level,
In your opinion, what other kinds of work needs to be done?
Gosh, I mean, I think it's hard to project what other leaders need to work on. So I always just encourage people to do their own work first.
When you say that, how does someone do their own work?
You need to do your own research, you need to understand your values, where you come from, why your values are, what they are, what they stand on. But then at the same time, you need to go get an insight from other people and hear their stories, and hear how they may have similar values, but have a very different context, and how that shapes them and their experiences. And so you kind of need to do your own work so that you can help understand the other work, how the other people have had their experiences in life, to really relate to them. And then you can get to, what do we do about it? And how do we make sure that we're an inclusive work? place? How do I make sure my house is inclusive for all the kids that walk through the door, so you just need to think you need to think about it. And I can easily project and say, oh, Adam, go work on this and go, you need to go learn this. But I, I find if I do the work myself, and then I share a story or I listen to somebody else's story and share that with somebody else. That goes far greater than kind of projecting what other people need to do.
Gotcha. Okay, what else then I'm sorry, I'd cut you off, I just needed to understand that.
No no. And I mean, I think there's a lot of work to be done. I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of work to be done. And you could think about it at home and school and nonprofits. So I just try to take my little circle and make sure that I'm doing everything that I can to help my kids, you know, grow up to be good people and also see a lot of the inequities around them and a lot of the privileges that they have, and just to call it a privilege, it's okay to say that and acknowledge it. And I think that it's important and stuff, there's just a lot of work to be done. Or you can think about people with disabilities, LGBTQ people, obviously, people of color. So there's just there's so much work to do. So we'll pick it progress over perfection, and one day at a time.
I like that. I like that. So let's talk about the hiring. That's something that I'm sure you're intimately familiar with, with your organization or just in general, you I think a lot of companies have done a really good job, at least getting the message out there that they're more open, making sure that there are there seeing enough diversity candidates before making any decisions. So let's say that the hiring is moving in the right direction. So you bring it on a decent amount of diversity candidates, once they're hired, how do you set them up for success? What are all the elements that you have to think about?
Yeah, and I think, for us, we had to think about our entire system, so we weren't even hiring them. So if I back up the truck a little bit, it's easier said than done, that you're gonna look at a diverse slate of candidates and bring them in. So we had to back it up. And I think what you have to ask yourself as a leader is you can say that, but what are you doing? And so for us, we moved all of our recruiting spend to minority recruiting, we actually move the money to make sure that we were spending the money in those spaces, and we put specific goals in place. So for example, our recruiter, her goal, the measurement of her success, is she presenting a diverse slate of candidates, not you know, she talking to them, are we hiring them, but it has to be a diverse slate of candidates. And it takes time because it takes more work. But you can find super talented people, you just have to make the measurement and the resources aligned to that. Then when you bring them into your point, you have to make sure that it's not just about getting them in the door. It's one, they're super talented leaders. So you got to get them in, onboard them, make sure that they do feel inclusive so that they can do great work. And that's really the fruit of making sure that everything upstream is set up for the minute you have to provide opportunities for them. And you have to be willing to make bold ask and make bold risks to ensure that these leaders have the opportunities to be super successful. And I find time and time again. They step up to the challenge and they lead very well.
Are there any companies out there that you think are pioneers are kind of like the bellwether, they have a model that's worthy of following?
I mean, I don't have I don't have a company that I want to highlight but I do feel like, all companies are trying to find their way to make improvement. And I think that that's more important than holding up kind of a single company. So for me, again, this notion of being able to improve lots of little things that really will have a flywheel effect of making improvement is the key. And so I don't have a specific company, I'm sorry, but
no problem.
But you see it and you see it in the way that businesses are running or the way advertisements are happening. And I you hear it in conversation, so people are talking about it more. So I think that's a good start. But it's not enough to will Time will tell.
that castle v.
Yeah.
You've mentioned twice flywheel and I don't know if everyone's gonna know you're, you're referring to the Jim Collins. Correct?
Yeah, yeah, when you get things moving about a water wheel, you know, it's hard to get that water wheel or that flywheel started that first push that first momentum is difficult. But once, once you get it going, then it's easier for the waterwheel or the flywheel to keep moving. And you see that with awards. You mentioned a couple of the top once you went a couple of words, and people notice it. And they noticed, like, Oh, my gosh, they must be doing good work. And let's recognize their good work. And it's that first time, that's the hardest, it's the first opportunity as a diverse leader that you have. It's that first job, that's the hardest, but once you get it and the next job is easier, and so it's just getting that momentum going.
And how do you know if you're doing a good job? How are you measuring the success?
I usually ask the people because you know, if you have trusted people around you will tell you the truth. I mean, you can use D&I surveys, you can use talent, attraction, numbers, retention, numbers, engagement hours, you can do all of that. But at the end of the day, I usually ask people and I find if you have people that trust you will tell you the truth, if you're doing okay, if you do some more work. Yeah. What's the best advice someone ever gave you?
The best advice someone has ever given me I think, I think listen more, is definitely a piece of advice that I've received. And it was needed advice. And it was good advice. I think asking for more work. You know, my mom always said, If you want something done, give it to a busy person.
I love that saying,
I think it's true. I think if you want something done, ask for it. And when you think you're busy, you don't have time, but opportunities present themselves, ask for the work, you'll figure out a way to get it done. Again, it might not be perfect, but you're going to move it forward. Yeah, and stay positive people, even in tough times, they want to be surrounded by optimism, and hope that things can get better. So have your bad days have the people that you can vent to. But at the end, find a way to stay positive. And ask for the work and let your work Stanford So
yeah, I really like that,
and find good stories, because stories. People are gravitated to story. I don't know about you. But I remember my grandmother was a great storyteller. And everybody knows those wise people. But why were they attracted to that they were attracted to them, because they always told amazing stories
show true. And it's so true. Laurie, you're very well read, you're using cutting edge terms talking about the flywheels of the world. I'd love to talk before I let you go about some trends in HR, what are some of the biggest trends you are seeing?
You know, I mean, you hear about big data and technology and systems and how people are automation and all of that. And it's true. And the big companies are there, I think, for our size business. And for many of the listeners who may be in smaller businesses, they just don't have the resources to do that. But I do think that everyone has the ability to think about simplification. And I think you know, you're about agile work and being resilient and all of these things. But I find everybody can make the work simpler. So I think one of the biggest trends that I'm challenging myself and our team to do is, how do we make things simple, we just over complicate a lot of things. And so that's something that I think, is on trend. And I think COVID has really also brought that reality to our lives. I mean, think about how much simpler Our lives have become, or at least mine has become, over the last 10 months. I'm not traveling, and I'm not going out to eat, I'm not going to kids events, you can't go out to your back to some basic simple things. And there's some value in that. There'll be back to puzzles, being back to eating as a family being back to Cooking. There's some value in that. And there are definitely things that we miss on the other side. But how are we slowing down and just bringing this simplicity forward
like that any predictions that you'd like to share regarding some of these trends?
Obviously, I think the way the purpose of a workplace is going to change as a result, at least for corporate work. I think flexible work has changed for the good to give people some balance back in life. I don't think that will ever go back. I think some people will try to go back but I think it'll be a hybrid approach. But I think the way we work, where we work, how we work. I'm hoping that the racial injustice, work, changes for the good. I'm hoping that all The outrage that we all felt people do something good with that, and that that changes for the good. I hope our kids are raised, so that we can eliminate some of that work for the future. And then the mental health we talked on. So I think there's a lot of trends that we're gonna see continue on
well with good people like you at the helm, I think that we're moving the needle in the right direction.
You know, good people, no good people. And I think networking is something that you're passionate about. And I think when you're struggling as you need to look in your network and see who can help and lend a little hand and that usually gets paid back to fold. I find when you can open a door or make a connection or help somebody, then when you need help, it's easier to make the Ask the reciprocity is much easier to make the ask on the back end. So
you got it. You nailed it. Laura, this has been a real pleasure. Big shout out to I think who would you say your mentor was Mae Levine
Mae Levine in Arizona. I'm gonna send her a note today and tell her that I was thinking about her and appreciate everything she's done for me. So
that's a beautiful thing.
Thank you Adam, I've enjoyed our conversation today and and thank you for the work that you do.