get ready to lead the way to inclusivity with Alita Miranda Wolff as we explore how to create schools where everyone belongs, including the educators. Hey, friends, I'm Tim Villegas with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, and you are listening to think inclusive, our podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. This week on the pod, we have three time guest Alita Miranda Wolff, a diversity equity inclusion and belonging, practitioner committed to teaching love and cultivating belonging. She is an Amazon Best selling author of two books with Harper Collins leadership cultures of belonging, building inclusive organizations that last, and the first time manager diversity, equity and inclusion. She is the founder and CEO of ethos, a full service deib and employee advocacy firm serving hundreds of clients worldwide. She hosts care work with Alita Miranda Wolff, a podcast about what it means to offer care for a living. In this episode, Alita and I explore Diversity Equity and Inclusion in leadership, focusing on educational systems. We discuss alitas latest book on deib principles for managers, offering insights into creating inclusive school environments. We also delve into leadership styles, modeling growth oriented behaviors and the importance of care for employees and students, addressing recent controversies around dei practices, we examine how fear and resistance can be navigated to foster inclusivity. You will not want to miss this conversation, especially if you are in leadership in any capacity. Before we jump in today's episode, let's take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsor for season 12 IXL. IXL is a fantastic all in one platform designed for K 12 education. It helps boost student achievement, empowers teachers and tracks progress. Imagine having a tool that simplifies what usually requires dozens of different resources. Well, that's IXL as students practice iexl adapts to their individual needs, ensuring they're both supported and challenged, plus each learner receives a personalized learning plan to effectively address any knowledge gaps. Interested in learning more. Visit I excel.com/inclusive that's I excel.com/inclusive, okay, after a short break, my conversation with Alita Miranda Wolf, catch you on the other side. You
Alita Miranda Wolff, welcome to the think inclusive podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. It's exciting to be back. Yeah, you are now officially a two timer.
I think I'm actually a three timer because I was part of that episode. Yeah,
I stand corrected. Yes, you were on the CRT episode. So yes, congratulations. How's it feel?
You know what? It's such an honor.
Good, good. Well, we always love having you on the podcast, and today we're going to be talking about your new book. Is that right? Yes.
So in May, I released my second non fiction book, the first time manager diversity, equity and inclusion, and it's turned out to be a very timely one during this election season.
Yeah, you know, that's really interesting that you bring that up. I think I'm not sure when this will air, but it will always, it's always relevant to talk about dei and dei be and it's interesting you say that because that term sometimes can be used, as you know, in a derogatory way. Some people want to use that term, right?
Absolutely, I would say, in the last two months, I've done more interviews about that specific subject than in almost 10 years of doing the work. So. Of it comes from the comments about the DEI Mayor were Kamala Harris being the DEI president, and the way in which the acronym is being used now as a kind of slur, episet. And also we've been seeing a lot of changes on the national stage of just eliminating equity from the term because of language and comments through different political campaigns, not just the presidential race, but even really, since 2021 it's interesting that I'm here talking about my new book after we had done that CRT episode, because during that CRT episode, we talked about the fact that critical race theory went from being sort of an obscure term that was really limited to legal theory circles to being on the national stage because it was used as a platform for campaigns that were running against some of the changes that had happened after the murder of George Floyd, and we're kind of in that place now when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, and so I've been asked a few times why this book now, and a big part of it was seeing the writing on the wall and asking myself, What would lead to the most immediate positive interventions from people from underrepresented and underserved groups in organizations when there is such a rollback of funding policies and practices in this area as a result to fear of what is happening in our current moment.
Well, thank you for bringing that app, and we will make sure to put a link in the show notes to that CRT episode. So if you want to dive in a little bit more on what we're talking about, then that would be perfect for you to check out. Let's talk about the book and about this idea of a good manager, I see managers as, as you know, almost leaders, and I'm wondering if there's a distinction between the manager and the leader. But what is a good manager, and why should managers and or leaders bother with dei or dei be
so I'll just start with a distinction between leadership and management, because you can be both a manager and a leader, just a leader and not a manager, a manager and not a leader, or you could be neither. They are different in a few ways. I think what can be helpful is to know that management, as a discipline and as a term, is relatively new, and leadership is not so the practice of management is relatively new and comes from actually the rise of a corporate Working sphere. Before that time, we really didn't have managers, and management theory really blew up in the 1960s so what a leader does is drive vision, inspire people, develop relationships, think ahead to the future and try to build towards that future. What managers are meant to do is actually think about the present, mitigate against risks in the future so that leaders can achieve that vision. But if leaders are responsible for creating a vision and nurturing a vision and getting people to buy into that vision, managers are there to make sure that it happens, whether it's through marshaling resources, or people creating efficiencies, putting in structures that allow for that to take place. And so I often am in management programs where I have folks who say I've inspired my whole career to be a manager, and now that I'm in this role, it's not what I thought it would be. It's a lot of managing team dynamics and managing projects and putting out fires and influencing people, and I thought I was going to be making more and leaders and managers have different experiences based on the environments they're part of. But a big distinction is a manager is keeping an operation moving. A leader is imagining what that operation is doing and setting the stage for it to ultimately be realized. So again, there are plenty of people who do both. There are plenty of people who have a preference for one or the other, but one of the reasons that I say that deib is important in both is because we're managing the future and we're managing the present. If I am a manager and I have a diverse team, and I am not putting in the practices of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, there is a much higher likelihood that people who are coming from diverse backgrounds won't have the same opportunities under my. Stewardship, as those who are perhaps more similar to me have similar preferences, backgrounds, etc, for leaders, if they don't think about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, they're essentially building a future without it, because these are practices, and I think that's what's really important. Every time I hear somebody say, well, it's just the right thing to do. If you are a good human and a nice person, this will happen. But that's just fundamentally not true, and I can point to so many different examples of that. But perhaps the simplest one is we don't just navigate cultural differences. Inherently, we have to learn about other people's cultures to do that, if I go and work in Japan today, I am not going to be able to break into Japanese work culture just by being nice, because what being nice is is something fundamentally different based on our cultures, right? There has to be a disciplined understanding and practice in order for those bridges to be created. So I would say that distinction is important, and then understanding the role of dei be along each path helps us in terms of where we're focusing our energy.
I'm thinking about school leaders, right, and as a principal or an assistant principal, often they are also managers, right? They manage school teams, educators. I was never a school principal, but I was definitely managed by my assistant principal or by my principal, and something that, as an organization at MCIE, we talked a lot about is belonging, creating a culture of belonging, an environment of belonging for students, but also for the educators that work in that particular school. So I'm wondering if you can connect the things that you learned while writing the book, as far as you know what a good manager and leader is, and bringing in dei be if you can connect the dots for what that means for a school.
Well, this resonates with me in two ways. The first is that with my team, you know, I run a diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging consulting firm, a lot of my employees are teachers. They're former teachers or still teach in those settings. So I have found that I've spent the last six years managing teachers and also being a teacher myself in both adult learning environments, but also in middle school and high school environments. So there's the real time experience of managing these folks, but then there's also just the element that we work with school districts. So I'll share a short anecdote that comes to mind when you ask this question. So we had the opportunity to develop a session called navigating cultural differences within my school district, so the school district that my son will be enrolled in once he turns five. And so it was such a great opportunity. We in Illinois and in the Chicago area have a lot of refugees coming from South and Central America right now, and so our school districts are dealing with existing pressures, plus an influx of students who are coming from completely different cultures, who don't speak our language, are being primary language within the school district who are coming in without having been assessed at what grade level they should be in, where we have uncertainties around things like their security, around food or shelter, and they're coming into classrooms that are already brimming with students. And so one of the things that I have been working on with this school district and a few others is, how do we manage our staff in uncertain circumstances where they're also dealing with classrooms that are unfamiliar to them, a different set of challenges than you're used to. So we were doing this session, and one of the things that I thought was so interesting about it is that we had near perfect attendance from our K through 12 teachers, as well as our social workers and speech therapists and occupational therapists, but we did not have principals, assistant principals or administrative staff there, and I asked my contact about it, and I basically said, is it just that they had a separate session or they have a different professional development day? And they had all opted to go to a different session, which I thought was really interesting, because we they offered two sessions at the same time, and there was one on social emotional learning, and there was one on navigating cultural differences. And basically, everyone who went to the SEL training was an administrator or in a management position, and everyone who went to navigating cultural differences was a practitioner in the school. Can definitely see where some of that is coming into play. But what I thought. Was a missed opportunity for the folks who manage people within the school district is obviously, if our session was the one that teachers were going to because it felt like the most pressing need, it would have been a really good place to listen to what the challenges are, and when I dug into it a little bit more what I found, and this has been true with a lot of the folks I work with in schools, is because there is a limited number of resources, time, energy, different stakeholders. Folks in that more management position are trying to minimize the amount of hard conversations that they have. They already feel that they're gonna have to do this with other members of their districts, with school boards, with parents, community members, and so they really try not to have these conversations with their teachers and practitioners, and from a diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging standpoint. And in my book, one of the things that I noted is that a manager's job, amongst several responsibilities, is to proactively engage in hard conversations about the work and how people show up in that work, and so if we're not creating environments where that's possible, we have a lot of missed opportunities and better serving our staff, but also the communities that we are meant to support and uphold.
I'm thinking about we just had a summer institute in Maryland for educators across the state and finding relevant topics like SEL, like creating a culture of belonging, it's got to be, it's got to be difficult to figure out how to equip yourself as a leader And then translate that knowledge back to your staff, how does one, how does a leader, especially one that is wanting to build up a culture of belonging, How do they figure out what to focus on?
So I think the first place that I will say is, no matter what environment you are part of, you are going to have the same set of management hard skills or technical skills and soft skills. It's just all in how they're applied. So the technical skills around management have to do with the employee life cycle, hiring people, developing them, correcting their performance or behavior if mistakes are made, promoting them if they exceed expectations, terminating them if they don't deliver on the promises they've made. And a lot of those elements come with very technical skills around how to navigate a complex system to do those things. But then there are the other skills that, in terms of translating this to your staff, have a lot to do with your leadership style. And so the first thing that I tell managers in any context is you have to understand what your preferences are so that you're not putting yourself into energetically an expensive place, because ultimately, the more tired you are, the less you'll be able to give to those that you're supposed to manage. And so first knowing if you are a visionary leader, a coaching leader, an affiliative leader, a participative leader, a pace setting leader, a directive leader, and then determining of those six styles, which you prefer, but also which your staff needs, can help answer a lot of questions for you. So you know, with this piece about social emotional learning, one of the things that I think is important is, and I'll just say it plainly, because I do work with a lot of schools, and I find that I'm often in the middle between teaching staff and the administrative staff, and the administrative staff usually encompasses that management layer, right? And they will act as though they are adversaries or they're at odds, because they have fundamentally different stakeholders, relationships, skills that they need to have, and I don't think that's true. What I see is that they are on all sides so under resourced that they're not investing in the self awareness needed to state what their needs are and what the group needs are, and then come to agreement about them. There's just a little bit of perspective setting that could lead to really good outcomes that doesn't because of the tense, high pressure, fast paced environments that they're part of. And so what I tell managers is first, take some time defining your leadership style and. Then tell the people you manage, what it is, what you can give and what you cannot give, and how to communicate around that. If we can start with that baseline of transparency, then we can work more towards trust, and then we can also decide how we tag team on these different skills. So again, I'm just going to talk about SEL as an example. One of the best managers that I know within a school is an assistant principal, and she is part of a school district who, you know I won't name, but their school board meetings have been very colorful, and there are teachers who have been there defending an SEL curriculum in their second and third grade classes, because they have parents who have said that Sel is really Just a front for an LGBTQIA two plus agenda. Those things are fundamentally unrelated, and if you look at the actual curriculum, you know it's a lot of emotional self regulation techniques and a lot of breathing exercises, a lot of helping young kids self reflect, identify their emotions, and find ways to process their emotions in an overwhelming environment. And when I say that this assistant principal is a really great manager, this is where I think she understands what her role is supposed to be. So there are others who would come into that meeting and say, I need to be an expert on SEL so that I can stand up and explain our curriculum and defend it. And she has understood it, but she's not trying to become the expert. Instead, she's saying, my teachers, who built this curriculum are the experts. What I'm here to do is provide cover for them and offer a kind of buffer when they are caught in the line of fire, so to speak. And I'm here to set boundaries with my parents, with the other members of my district, and help my teachers uphold their own and in for thinking as a manager, this means that her teachers will accept that she's not going to be as participative a leader. She will stand up for them, she will defend their curriculum, but she is not someone who is going in and making it with them or doing these massive overhauls. She's already said where I'm going to allocate my energy is in the outward facing work, because I trust you to do this inward work. And so a few things about that. One, the terms are really clear. We've made the implicit explicit. We have established a sense of mutual exchange and trust, and they have alignment around what belonging in their classroom is, what equity in their classroom is, they're defining their terms in the same way, and they're standing as United friends. And that, I think is so important and so hard to find actually, when we're looking at these large systems of people who feel like they're being pulled in multiple directions.
I love what you said about I think, I think in leadership, the leader really knows themselves right and how they best lead. And you named a number of different leadership styles so, and I can't remember all them, but I think that the point is, what I'm getting at is that that example that you're talking about, that leader, really knew themselves and how they were going to not only manage their staff, but also, you know, stand up for their staff right when there were trials you know about that certain curriculum. Alita in your book, you talk about the seven habits of highly inclusive managers. So would you walk through? Would you walk us through some of those and thinking about school leaders, are there ones that apply to principals, assistant principals, more than others,
absolutely. So I would say, of all of the habits, there are two that I think uniquely apply to principals and assistant principals. The first is habit one, which is model growth oriented behaviors. And this is something that's easy to lose sight of. So here's the thing, and I say this to including the manager that I really admire, who's the Assistant Principal from my previous example, everybody is watching you. Go very closely, much more closely than you might say, and so what you do is going to set the tone for what others do themselves. So when I say model growth oriented behaviors, you have to show the people who report to you, who view you as their leader, how you want them to be based on how you show up. And I think the three questions that I end up asking the most when I am trying to coach people into doing this is, how are you collaborating with your peers? How would someone outside of your peer group know that collaboration was taking place. And what do you say about your peers to the people you manage? So if you are trying to facilitate an environment where those who report to you are collegial, collaborative, supportive, willing to pitch in, you have to show how you're doing that too, and it can be very difficult, because one of the things that does happen is it sometimes I'll ask a principal a question, Does every here know what your job description is? Not your job your job description what you do on a day to day basis? And a lot of times, the answer is no. There are assumptions about what they do, but there's not actually that much visibility into what a principal or an assistant principal is doing, not to the others within the school. And so being able to showcase what that is and how that looks is really important, and being able to show how you are investing in yourself. So if you want your teachers to always be open to professional development, new learning opportunities, bettering themselves, you have to be very explicit in how you're doing that for yourself. If you want them to be emotionally regulated, then you have to show how you're emotionally regulated. There's an example from one of my schools that I'm working with now where to make a long story short, one of their teachers had a very bad day, and they have a chronic shortage of teachers aids within a classroom that is probably twice the size that it's supposed to be with students who don't want to be in that class in a very high pressure and low income environment, and one of the things that happened was this teacher basically said to the principal, if you don't give me my aids, I'm going to throw hands now. That is not the kind of behavior we want with our kids or in our classroom, and if we have a lot of empathy in that situation, we could say that was a very stressful classroom environment that somebody is coming to that point which was unusual behavior for them because of a lack of teachers aids. So this principal that I was working with, though they they kept their composure, they kept their calm in this situation, but it happened in a relatively public forum, and they didn't follow through on what happened afterwards. So the teacher is still there, the principal is still there, and they've just both continued on as if nothing has happened in modeling growth oriented behaviors, what I've recommended to that principal is to close the loop, not just with the teacher who they have come to a resolution, but to close the loop with everybody else who experienced that, to show How the principal was willing to be vulnerable, talk through the budget cuts that led to the situation within the school, come to a compromise with the teacher, ultimately engage in a, I think, very admirable restorative process that led to a situation where they can both remain when not in a violent environment. And this is something that I would recommend if, if people see you in conflict, instead of trying to sweep it under the rug, work through that process, close that process in the room. Show people how you're willing to listen and learn and adjust based on what you've seen. So that's the first behavior, the second one, and all of these are important, but I think that offering employees care, which is Habit number six, is one that is very easy to forget, and this is going to be true in any social impact space. But we see it with healthcare managers. We see it with nonprofit managers. We certainly see it with leaders within schools, because there are so many different people who require care in that environment, right? And so it's easy to forget about your staff, and easy to forget about yourself. So if we just think about what care is offering care is helping people meet their needs and employees. Needs often clash with organizational needs when we have a scarcity of resources and a lot of different types of employees, which is exactly what we experience in a school so as an inclusive manager, you owe it to yourself and to the people you lead to understand how they're defining care, what it would mean for them to meet their needs, what it would mean for your needs to be met, and then make a case for achieving as much of that as possible. And what I have noticed is the difference between really good managers versus great managers in schools is how willing they are to go beyond step one of understanding what people's needs are, to actually consistently making the case, even if they've been told no, even if there's been a rejection, even if they can't negotiate for everything that is being requested, to push until a little bit more is gained, and to honestly be able to say that they're doing the same for themselves, so that there's no resentment that develops or festers between them, because I have definitely seen principals and assistant principals burn out because they've put the needs and demands of others so far above their own that they end up going over the cliff, basically where they go from being exhausted to cynical, to feeling like they're just not effective and they're not able to lean into their stress, and that's where we get this plateau where they're not happy, their staff are not happy, and there are a lot more challenges that arise. And so being able to say, what do I need in order to advocate for my people that is also care and something that I think gets lost and you know, I think I've used this example with you before, but I'll say it again in the book work won't love you back by Sarah Jaffe, is an entire chapter on teachers, specifically how teachers end up being exploited because they do love work. It is very different to have a customer versus a student, because, you know, I think about it this way. My son is in daycare, and we are supposed to pick him up by 630 every day, but if my husband or I don't get there by six three, they're not going to leave my two year olds, one of those teachers is staying late, like it's just happening, right, right? And that wouldn't be the case with like, a pizza delivery, you know? They they leave it at your door, they just leave with it period, right? But, but this is where it starts to be a little bit more complicated, and we have to understand that this is where we have to fight for each other. In the chapter that Sarah Jaffe writes, she says, you can look at how big of a challenge this is just by which teachers unions causes are supported and which aren't. So when teachers unions advocate for student needs, like we don't have enough supplies, or we don't have enough textbooks, where there's not air conditioning in our facilities, or kids aren't getting the attention or care that they need, there is a lot more widespread public support than when teachers advocate for their own needs, such as when they were saying they didn't want to come into schools because of COVID, or when they're trying to organize for a pay increase, there is a decided backlash, and offering employees care as a principal or assistant Principal in those situations is being able to elevate what they are advocating for themselves to the same level as what they're advocating for their students.
There's a lot to unpack. There. Something that I kept coming back to while you were talking about care, is that it feels like some managers may understand the needs of their employees. And, you know, let's just hypothetically talk about principles, right, and certain teachers may need, I mean, different things. Everyone needs different things to feel cared for. It feels like good leaders, great leaders, understand the difference and are willing to give people or care for people differently. Uh, for instance, if they know that a particular teacher needs a certain way, a certain tone, like when you're talking with them, right? Or maybe a person may need written affirmation, because they that's how they feel like they're doing a good job. So am I picking up on that? Is that good leaders, great leaders really not only know what their employees or teachers need educators, but they also follow through with it, even if that's not how they would necessarily want to be cared for.
So we often say one of the most important DIB principles is to shift from the golden rule to the platinum rule. So the golden rule is treat others how you want to be treated. The Platinum Rule is treat others how they want to be treated, which in a lot of cases, means you have to ask. And so I believe that great leaders ask and they try to understand maybe what I need is different from what you need, but if we can get you what you need, and it's within reason, right? It's something that's within the realm of possibility, then I'm going to do that for you. And the part that I just always add on is you as a leader, have every right to say that that would not be your need, or to state what your needs are, too. I think one thing that is a trap, and it's certainly one that I've fallen into, is thinking that you as a manager, are completely indebted, or owe your staff all of yourself, and that you are not in a position to say that you need something, but this goes back to modeling growth oriented behaviors. So this is where you make requests. For example, for me, I am a person who spends a lot of time in meetings, a lot of time in meetings, and I need a lot of alone time as a result, when I'm talking with my staff, some are public facing, but not to the extent that I am. A lot of what they've wanted throughout my career journey has been more face time and being able to state I will get that for you, if you are flexible about when and if we can calendar it, if we can put it in the future, if we can make it low pressure, if you are even willing to come to me like that is one thing that I put in place, which was, I understand that you need to see people, and I am one of the people that you need to see in person. It will take me an hour and a half to get to you and an hour and a half to get back. Let's meet in the middle, or actually come meet me in my neighborhood. And it's a little bit different with the school, obviously, but I say that because it's a very simple request on my part that I did not make for years, and instead, I would get to these meetings after being stuck in traffic or having a really difficult experience on the train with having to do two or three transfers, would get to them for a 30 minute meeting that truthfully I didn't want to have because I wanted to be decompressing alone in my house, and so I wouldn't show up as my best self either, because I would Be thinking to myself, wow, it's three hours of commuting time for a 30 minute face to face meeting that I didn't need. But being able to say, I want to fulfill your need, let's talk about how we can make it work for both of us. It took me until two years ago to do that, even though I've been managing people my entire career, because it's been so ingrained in me as a manager that my needs are never at the same level as that of my employees, because I have more power or more money or more status, and that is just Not how we should treat human relationships.
Yeah, yeah. I want to, I want to pivot to talking about something that happened in the news recently, you know, dei dei B and I just want your thoughts on it. So just very briefly. There, in the last week or so, there was some news about delta and the the airline company that there, I think it was their dei director, or, I'm not sure what the person's title was, but it was a Zoom meeting, or it was a webinar that was a broadcast. It was actually two years ago, though it had broad been been broadcast. But you know, as we are in a very political and divisive environment. Meant someone got upset about the the language that they were using, and what they were talking about was gender neutral, neutral language. And very simply, to summarize, I think it was a policy about using gender neutral language when the when the flight attendants or the people that are helping get people onto the planes that they would use instead of ladies and gentlemen or anything like that, just used, you know, very basic gender neutral terms and and so this practice was highlighted as an example by some news outlets, news outlets as wokeness, or, you know, dei gone too far. And I'm wondering. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because, as school leaders, are thinking about how we're building inclusive cultures, how we are building a sense of belonging for learners, but not only learners educators. How should we How should we view things like this, where we see such a spotlight calling these practices as wokeness going too far, and having such a negative spin on it? Because, you know, shouldn't we all try to be inclusive in our language, and then also, you know, be culturally responsive to the people of whether they're employees or educators or learners.
Yeah. So, I mean, this is a very this. This has been a topic of conversation for a long time, and you know, we've talked about this in a few different ways, at ethos, but we have to go back to what the underlying fear is. When we're talking about gender inclusive language, we're seeing a reaction of fear. And there are many reasons that people can be afraid. So first, trying to understand what makes people feel afraid. There is fear of saying the wrong thing. There is fear of hurting someone's feelings or causing harm. There is fear of demand for evidence or fear of being caught out. So there's like the public shame element. There are all of these different fears that are at play. And so I think it's important to understand what is it that's causing this reaction when it comes to gender inclusive language? In particular, we observe a few so there is a fear of change and a break with the past that is often tied to a personal sense of values. And those values can be rooted in some of the identities that someone holds. There could be a fear of having to learn a new skill or a new way of doing things and failing, and that's another kind of resistance to change. And when it comes to gender inclusive language, there's also just this fear of loss of autonomy or status. I'm being told to do something I'm being told to change the way that I've always done things because my needs or my opinion or my values are considered less than this other group or this other authority figure or this other kind of population. The reason I name that is depending on where the fear is coming from. We take different approaches. We have different interventions. So, you know, I think this question of Shouldn't we try to be as inclusive as possible, is a hard one, because what happens is that people will say, by being inclusive of this group of people, you're excluding my group of people. And so now we're in an adversar, an adversarial relationship, if it's a fear of saying the wrong thing, then what we do is try to make things as simple as possible and create analogs that make sense. So when I have been dealing with schools like that, in particular, one of the things I've emphasized is if you have a student who really doesn't want to be called a nickname, they want to be called their own name, don't you take the time to try to pronounce their name correctly. It's the same thing with gender neutral language, and you might have had the same resistance in not giving them a nickname or trying to shorten it or make it easier, because it puts some kind of stressor or pressure on you. But ultimately, this is about managing your classroom dynamics or managing your parent and community relationships. What is going to lead to your desired outcome matters when it seems like a value that's being threatened, I think it's important to play out what people are really afraid of. So if we use this gender neutral language, what is. Seen, and think this is how we end up with so many conversations about bathrooms, which are just very, very interestingly, the most persistent conversations that continue, and it's because of this threat of violence, in some ways, that is perceived. We don't have evidence around it. There are not facts that support it, but there's this very real fear. And so what I would say in those situations is, so people don't feel safe, what would it take for them to feel safe? Would it take more information? Would it take a different architecture or space planning? Would it take being able to say, here is your authority figure, and they decide, and if you have a problem with it, then leave right but like, what are the options available to us? When I've talked to parents, what I think is interesting is that they end up being resistant to gender neutral language because they're afraid that something is being chosen for their children, being that their children are being told how to be when it's being used. And I think that this is a very real reaction to the fact that younger generations have a much more fluid relationship to gender anyway. They have different relationships to these social identities anyway. And so parents are trying to understand their children, and then they have schools that they feel are supposed to be aligned with them, who don't. On the flip side, I have parents that I work with who have trans kids who are not able to get the recognition that they need, who are not able to have the care that they need depending on the state that they're in, and who are very frustrated with their schools, who they feel are again trying to be inclusive of one group of people to the exclusion of another. So I think it's important to also note that when we're talking about a politically divisive time, everybody feeling included is not going to be possible, but that's why, at ethos, we talk about inclusion in a very specific way. So if you are the school, your job is to do the including. You make the invitation, but whether people accept that invitation or not is up to them, and you are trying to index for the population that is most relevant to you, which in your case, is going to be the population you serve, which is students. If we know that students are looking for more inclusive environments where more gender neutral language is going to be what allows for them to thrive and feel safe in a school, then the invitation we make is going to be around those grounds, and if parents off to not participate, then that is their choice. They should not be forced. And we're not trying to force inclusion on anyone. It's not how it works. It's fundamentally one sided. It's the institution or system that does the including.
Yeah, I have, I've, I feel like I'm trying to remember who the guest was. It might have been Mirko Chardon. It might have been, it might have been and Fitzgerald, I do not remember, but the line that sticks out in my brain is that schools are for kids, not adults, right? We build schools for kids, we don't build schools for adults. So what the kids need is the priority, right? Yeah, yeah. Where can people find? Your books, your blog organization? Is there anything else you'd like to plug? What? What would you like for people to know, yeah,
well, everything about me you can find on Alita, Miranda wolf.com or ethos talent.com I have the advantage of the privilege that my books are available anywhere. Books are sold. So whether you prefer to buy them online or you like to get them in a bookstore, you should be able to see them. They're on bookshop, they're on Amazon, they're on Barnes and Noble, and they're available in ebook, audiobook and physical book. So that's where you can find them. I'm the only person with my name, so you can also add me on LinkedIn. It's very easy to do, and I would love to connect with you. I go on LinkedIn every day. I also have a podcast that Tim has appeared on called care work with Alita Miranda Wolf, a podcast that I literally just plugged his episode about. I'm on a hiatus to do my own self care until 2025 and in the meantime, I'm inviting everybody to listen to three episodes on Disability Justice specifically. So I would plug that. It's a great. Episode, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback on it.
Excellent, yes, yes. I'll make sure to have those links in the show notes. And I saw that announcement about you having a hiatus, and I just applaud you for that, because, as a podcaster, it is hard to keep on going. You know, week after week after month after month after year after year. And speaking from experience, I've definitely taken time off, you know, I think there at one point it was like 16 months or something like that between episodes. You know, when I first started, so I completely, completely understand. So kudos to you. We can't wait to have you, you know, back making new episodes. All right, it's time for the mystery question. And I have a my stack of prompt cards is getting much, much smaller. It used to be like that big, and so now it's this, this big. And the mystery question is, I'll select a random prompt card and we both answer it. And are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. What is one surefire way to grab your attention. See if I can get that too focused on there. I can't see, I don't know. I might have to do it from my face. There
we go. There we go. Yes. What is one surefire way to grab your attention? Yes,
yes, wow. Okay, hmm. You wanna go first?
Sure I was going to say cat. That was the first thing that came to mind. Well, first thing like, show me a cat. You'll get my attention. Oh,
yes, yes, you're definitely cat I saw. I saw a furry friend in the background here. Yes. Do you have, do you have multiple cats or just one? I have
three cats and three rabbits. Oh, you have rabbits. Yes, three rail, it's three rabbits. We have a rabbit room. The reason we bought our house was so that we could get our rabbits out of our one bedroom apartment where they were chewing up all of our cords.
Oh my gosh, wow. Do you have like, a do they have like, special names. Are they like names? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Okay. So what are the names of the rabbits?
Paddington, he's a giant orange French lab. I think he's 16 pounds. And then we have the two littles. They're both rexes, and they are Penelope and Cassiopeia, two Greek queens.
Oh, and as long as we're talking about names, what about your cats?
So I have two kittens. They're eight months old. Their names are Hansel and Gretel. And we have a big fat orange cat named Napoleon, not after Napoleon bonfire, after Napoleon Dynamite. There you go.
Wow. That is fantastic. We have people that are allergic to cats in this house, so we are not a cat household, although my daughters both really like cats, so I think that they may eventually want to have cats. But okay, what? What's the way to grab my attention? Well, gosh, I get distracted a lot, actually. So, you know, show me a really cool like sci fi trailer. I'm like, totally locked in. If baseball is on the TV. I'm totally like, you know, looking to see what the score is. It doesn't matter what team is. I was just traveling for for work and, you know, flipping around the TV, and I watched Little League baseball that was on ESPN. So, like, that was, like, the most interesting thing to me at the epic point. So, and then also, I'm really drawn to live performances, you know, on and I'm really just talking about TV, but like, I guess if there's a live band playing, like, if we're going to, like, a square, right, we lived close to the Marietta square in Georgia. And if there's like, a street musician or something, I'm always wanting to, like, go and, like, check out what's happening. So those are the things that come to mind right now. Alita Miranda Wolff, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast. We appreciate it. Thank you for having me. You
welcome back. It's the time of the episode called three for me and two for you. I give you three reflections about my conversation with the guest and two calls to action. To switch things up a bit, I'm going to give my calls to action first and then give my reflections number one. Check out alitas books, cultures of belonging, building inclusive organizations that last and the first time manager dei they are fantastic resources. I'm also going to link alitas previous appearances on the podcast. If you liked our conversation, you will love those episodes. Okay? Number two, one of our New Year's resolutions is to get better at fundraising. So we're going to start off the year right at MCIE. The magic behind our work comes from three main funding sources. We get grants from the Maryland State Department of Education to collaborate with specific school districts. We also have fee for service projects where schools and districts in Maryland, Illinois, Virginia and beyond pay us directly for our expertise in professional learning and school transformation. And then there's fundraising, which really is the heart and soul of how you can support inclusive schools. Historically, we haven't been the best at asking for donations, but this year 2025 we need your help more than ever to keep our mission alive and thriving. Your gift today will make a world of difference. With your support, we can empower educators with essential professional learning opportunities to create inclusive classrooms and schools develop innovative tools and resources that nurture a culture of belonging for every learner and transform schools to include all learners, fostering lasting friendships and strong community bonds. Every dollar you give brings us closer to a future where every child can thrive in an inclusive educational environment. Donate now using the link in our show notes, or visit our website@mcie.org together, let's create a brighter, more inclusive future for all learners. All right. Time for my reflections. Have you ever felt like you needed to hear something but you just didn't know you needed to hear it until you heard it. That's how I felt my conversation with a leader today, there are three things that stood out to me. Number one, I thought that the distinction between leaders and managers was very interesting. Sometimes, when you are in a small enough organization, by necessity, people will need to fill both roles, but I was really challenged by reflecting on what gifts all of us have in this particular area. So what are you? Are you a leader, a manager, or are you both something to think about. Number two, Alita talked about the significance of leaders modeling the behaviors they wish to see in their team. She said, everybody is watching you very closely, much more closely than you might think. And I think this serves as a reminder that leaders set the tone for their teams and organizations and their actions can inspire or discourage others. Number three, our conversation touched on the shift from the golden rule to the platinum rule treat others how they want to be treated that means that leaders really need to know their employees. And if you're in a school system that's really the principal or the district administrator, they really need to develop relationships and know who is in their schools. This principle of the platinum rule really encourages leaders to actively seek to understand the unique needs of their team members, fostering a more supportive and effective work environment. If you have thoughts about this episode and want to share them, you can always email me at T villegas@mcie.org, we'd love to know that you're listening. Okay, time for the credits. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Original Music by miles. Credits, additional music from melody. Think. Thanks to our sponsor, IXL, Learn more at ixl.com/inclusive and one final call to action. If you like this episode, share it with a friend, family member or colleague. Sharing podcast episodes is one tried and true way to help us grow the podcast, and it doesn't cost anything. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works.
