well good. Okay, Mr. Tipton, can you hear us? Quick little audio check? Yes, indeed, Sunday right here. All right. So we will reconvene from our brief recess and continue on with interviews for Chief Investigator. At this time could you I believe the candidate is on. Did you confirm that Mr. Tipton?
Yes. Paulo he is in the room. I see his name here. We just need him to have access to video and voice please.
Thank you.
My apologies.
My apologies.
I do about I do about 30 of these a month via when I was a judge and now that I'm a substitute judge, you think I'd remember to turn on the darn camera?
No problem. So nice to finally meet you. I'm Jana and recruiting with the city of Detroit. I have our honorable board of police commissioners here on resume call as well. Paul, we're going to ask you a few questions here. For our chief investigator row, will give me your responses for questions two through six. We actually think of a specific situation attached you had to take on the action you took to the test and then the end result will give you your response. Once the board introduces themselves, I will give a brief overview and then we'll jump right into the q&a.
Sounds perfect thank you. Mr. Ferguson, if you could start. Good afternoon,
sir. Good afternoon. My name was
honored to meet you up. So here there's a little delay. I didn't mean to talk over you apologize.
My name is Brian Ferguson, from the board of police commissioners. I'm the chairperson of the board. And I represent district one.
Good afternoon. My name is Annie Mae Hall border police commissioner, commissioners vice chair and I represent at large the entire city of Detroit.
A sir a Soos Hernandez. I am an appointed Commissioner to the board of police. Just for a little bit of context. This is not the full body. This is the personnel and training committee otherwise known as the HR committee. So you're just seeing just a fraction of of the full commission and my role specific to this committee is chairperson of the personnel and training committee. Hi,
I'm attorney Linda Barnard. I'm a elected Commissioner for District Two in the city of Detroit. I look forward to talking to you. Excuse a booth we have been here since the clock and I haven't eaten anything. So
I'll make a deal with you man. I'll excuse the food if you don't hold my Texas accent against me.
I love it. I love Texas.
Please don't let it fool you into believing that I'm not well educated.
Oh you know that's that's not Oh, nothing the day they tried to uneducated. I think it was folks on Wall Street out of their southern accent and they for a week. I'm from Birmingham, Alabama. So I appreciate the southern accent, even though it's not as engraved as it is probably from where you come.
Well. I tell you when you're sitting in a room interrogating civil rights violations. Sometimes as a psychologist I use that Texas accent to my advantage.
That's awesome. Mr. Bird
I'm Commissioner Willie Burton represent
the fifth district. It's an honor to meet all of you truly it is. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. Mr. Tipton.
Yes, I'll go here with the descriptor for Chief Investigator under general direction. lease the day to day operations of the Office of the Chief Investigator OCI to enhance its overall effectiveness and delivery of oversight services initiative and alignment with the city charter and the board of police commissioners bylaws. supervise all OCI employees and their performance of their duties and according with the city charter, and board's bylaws, itself, reviews and evaluates all comp. complaint investigations concerning the operations of the police department ensure that the board members perform their duties as outlined in the city charter. Thank you. I mean, Hernandez,
thank you. So I will give the same level of context or intro to this position that I have other candidates. And I will start by saying that the chief investigator role, along with the subsequent 25 to 30 employees who roll up to this position as direct reports are probably the key arm when it comes to the responsibility that the Board of police commissioners holds in securing accountability and police oversight here in the city of Detroit. So the chief investigator in this case reports up to the board secretary and I'll provide a little bit of clarification on that point. The board secretary and I'm going to steal Ms. Bernards words from earlier. That's a misnomer. In terms of the title. It is not the board secretary is not an administrative role. It is an executive director role that is titled that way based on city of Detroit charter. So I want that portion to be clear, it's entirely not administrative. The board secretary along with Chief Investigator are our two top level positions for the staff. So I want to clarify that. And again, I mentioned the point but I want to re emphasize the chief investigator is one of the most critical pieces of our responsibility as a board and the primary function is overseeing non criminal complaints against police officers in this department. Are there any questions? Just on that preliminary intro that you might have before we deep dive into a few other questions from the group?
I don't believe so. I believe I'm good.
Perfect. So we base our questions on somewhat of a category or dimension if you will. So I'll take the first one around technical experience. Please explain how your previous experience and or education that prepares you for this role. And those experiences and qualifications and knowledge can be tied to investigations, police misconduct, civilian oversight, database, database management, data analysis, if applicable, as well. So anything within that realm that you might be able to provide along with your your qualifications and background?
Sure. Well, first I have a bachelor's in political science and law. I have a master's in criminal justice and public administration, and I'm one of only three police chiefs in the entire nation. That is a doctor of forensic psychology. So that's my background. I've spent I have 33 years in public safety and public service. Of those I spent 20 years here in the south as what what we call down here and in Alabama, a reform chief and that is a police chief who was brought in because there were rotten apples in the barrel. I investigated all aspects of Public Integrity complaints, both civil, civil slash administrative and criminal against commission personnel and non commissioned personnel. You name it, and basically I was brought in. We're affectionately known in the South as snake eaters we were brought in to get rid of the officers who don't deserve to be wearing a badge and help rehabilitate those who may have made some bad decisions. But are salvageable if that makes sense. I did that for for 20 years. And then I taught college for eight years and at the same time, there's a little overlap. I was also the University Police Chief for the college that I taught it. For I did both full time positions. I achieved the rank of Associate Professor and Criminal Justice and Criminology. And then the last four years I was elected the presiding judge of my county here in Texas. There are 254 counties in Texas and lack of board secretary is kind of a misnomer position county judge is also what it's called and I do have judicial duties and responsibilities over civil lawsuits all misdemeanor offense is and administrative and code violations. However, the county judge is also the chief executive officer and CFO of the entire county government. So it was it was very it was a great way to end my retire my public career here in Texas so that's what I did now retired after my full term January 1 of this year so now i i am looking for the next chapter in my life. I'm far too young to to ride off into the sunset. So I've still got a lot of fire left in the belly, and I'd like to do some good. I did a little I should also and then I'll stop because I've already written on too long but also served as a consultant for both the Department of Justice and the Department of State. I've been an international trainer in community policing, national and international in community policing, and in I was also a war crimes investigator after the war in Bosnia for the Department of State and the Department of Justice. Join if you've ever heard of the institute program, international criminal assistance program. So I was a contractor, a consultant for that as well. And that's, that's 33 years right there in about two minutes. So I'll stop and be quiet.
Thank you so much for that. Question number two, will actually go to miss Bernard. And as a as a reminder, question two for us. It's three questions. Remember
your name is nice to her as well. All our judges nice making
your acquaintance today.
Thank you, ma'am. It's nice to have an attorney in the room, even though I'm not an attorney.
I see D The question that I have for you.
Normally before that,
what part of Texas are you in?
I'm a dad if you put a tack right in the dead center of Texas. That's where I'm at the name of your county again Brown. Brown. Brown. Out of the 280 254 Texas counties or counties.
Now we only have 84 counties in Michigan, but okay. 254 And you're in Brown County. Well,
that would have been much more manageable when you're trying to get 254 judges together for a conference. It was a task.
I can understand that. But before I ask you this question that I'm assigned to ask you, can I ask you why do you want to leave Texas and why you want to get your judge currently.
I'm not again I retired as I'm still a I'm an associate judge for the city of Fort Worth. And I fill in now for judges when they're when they're out sick or something. But that's not where my passion is. My passion was honestly never to be a judge. It was I don't mean to throw my religion in here whatsoever. But I felt God telling me that at that point in time, that's the role he needed me in so I ran for the office and I won and but I've done that duty, and I'm ready to get back to what I love, which is investigations, especially detailed investigations where I can use my my background, but to answer your question. I've spent almost other than when I worked for the federal government. I've spent my entire career in Texas and I'd like to see I'd like to work elsewhere. I would like to but the great thing. I do still hold a masterpiece out for license. I am a police officer. So I and I'm proud honor of that and every officer who does difference to that badge has no business wearing it and that's coming from a man that's worn it for 33 years. What I'm getting at is unfortunate also in that all 49 Other states honor that Texas law enforcement officer license because our standard of training is so high here. The only state that has a higher requirement is California. But we have a reciprocal reciprocal agreement with just about all of the states I think maybe not Hawaii, but so I can go from here and I just would like to expand my wings and see what other good I can do. I feel deep inside that God's telling me that I needed to throw my hat in the ring for your position there.
So so you're interested
in an urban environment and an urban situation that appears to be foreign to you from your resume.
Oh, no, ma'am. I reflect I lived the largest investigation in the history of Dallas County which is where I spent a great deal of my career. So no, I'm born and raised in Fort Worth, which has a population of a million people. So I'm very comfortable. I came out here to teach college out in southwest Texas and now I'm done and I'm ready to get back to you. Let me put to you this way. Do you know how frustrating it is to see an advertisement for delicious food on television and know that the closest one that has that food is two and a half hours away?
Let me ask you the official question I'm supposed
to ask you
what are the what are best practices? And emerging trends that you would use to employ with the investigation standards to comport with national best practices and recommendations regarding civilian oversight and police misconduct investigations?
Well, I'll tell you, man, I testified to that very issue before the President's Commission on Law Enforcement about three years ago. It's been a tough 10 years for law enforcement and that's because we've had some very bad apples, as I mentioned, that have made the national spotlight and we've done some atrocious things to tell you I lecture now and I still teach college online and occasional face to face class in addition to detailed forensic, both administrative and criminal investigations. What I what I testify what I speak publicly about more often than anything else is the lack of empathy. That our law enforcement officers tend to have this newest generation tends to have and that's what's causing all the problems. They're not being taught enough in the academy, how to relate to the public that they serve, how to empathize with the public and that's that's a huge, huge tool that as a law enforcement leader that I promote, on top of that, the Eric my areas of expertise are special policing environments and investigations within those and I also teach specifically problem oriented policing, and geographic specific policing. And I lecture wherever I'm asked to lecture on alternatives to use of force. That's one of my one of my lectures in greatest demand. And in general, general too, as a trained clinical psychologist, to teach officers how to properly behave. The code of honor and respect there's nothing new that we need to teach law enforcement other than to be more inclusive, and to be less discriminatory. I'm sorry, I'll just I'll just use that word. Our academies have become so militaristic. And what I say and what I told the president's commission is, we don't need soldiers and we don't need warriors. We need peacekeepers. We have the military to defend our country if it's ever needed. Our law enforcement our public safety officers are supposed to empathize. They're supposed to help make people's lives better, to make a positive impact on every single soul they come in contact with, even if it's a negative contact, meaning that they have to take an enforcement action, they can still do it with honor and with respect and to treat that person with dignity. I'm sorry, but these are the things that I lecture on. These are the things that I roll into all my while I demand my investigative staff. I'll accept nothing less for lack of a better term. By the way, ma'am. You can tell I'm a college professor because I can take three sentences and make them last 50 minutes.
I have a question. Here. That's my question. I guess. How would you use your experience to help investigate citizen complaints?
Well, that's what I did for 20 years. George Floyd case,
the Michael Brown case and the Breanna Taylor
case, when I said bad apples. Those are the ones that rise to the top of the barrel, aren't they? But there are a lot more out there. You know, it's because we have you know, can I say this? One of the biggest problems we have in law if I have you seen some of our modern police departments today where they're dressed like there weren't regular police officers are dressed like SWAT officers and they have the big if you as a psychologist, I can tell you this. And again, I told the president's commission this if you dress them, like warriors, they're going to behave like warriors. If you dress them like they're going into battle, that's how they're going to treat the general public and the general public. Is not the enemy is who we're here to serve. So, you know, that may not be a direct answer to your question. I tell you what, repeat it and let me make sure I can get back on
that. We're good with that. It was good. Was that okay?
I ramble sometimes. Anna Taylor.
So we're gonna move. We're going to go ahead and move ahead. And I'm sorry,
I'm taking up too much time or not?
No, sorry. You have now I'm the one I'm the culprit. The
COVID is sitting to my right and getting answered questions. Fed by other commissioners. So
while I'm in no hurry, I know you've got other interviews, but you take all the time you need with
me. Question four is actually for Commissioner Burton, although you may abstain since you have abstained from all the other interviews. So what would you like to do,
Mr. Chairman, thanks for recognizing me and calling on me. I'm going to abstain because I don't agree with the process. These questions that were prepared here, were not prepared by individual Commissioners that sitting at this table. There's a lot of applicants that apply. We haven't saw the full list of all that against so we don't know who are really apply for the position and we want the best and the brightest. And, and I'm sure there are some good names, but some names are questionable. We still like to see the for less you know, and I represent America's Black is employed city, which is Detroit, where citizens in Detroit wake up every day in pain and poverty. And we look into hires secretary to Chief Investigator but and we want transparency and accountability. And I don't think we the citizens are getting that today. Unless it's a full list
your point is noted. So I will actually ask this question and just for the record, and obviously for the public once again. These questions that are being distributed to each candidate are in line with our city HR process, on fun, feel very confident in the integrity of this process as well. So question number three for you is around building and maintaining relationships. What strategies have you implemented to increase morale and engagement? To create a dynamic team environment while maintaining high quality and efficient workforce? So if you could talk about some of those strategies that you've used, and any outcomes that you can list,
the man who was my greatest mentor, who I learned more than anything from anyone ever before, was the first black officer hired by Philadelphia Police Department. He retired as a I believe a captain from Philadelphia. And he came down and he started the Dallas public school system Police Department. He came to me and asked me to be the chief investigator. Little did I know that three years later, I would have discovered $19 million in fraud and had put 19 people, employees in federal and state prisons, six of them law enforcement officers. But where I was going with that is I learned more about leadership than him from him than anyone else. And next to my father, I hope no other man on this planet in higher court and respect. He taught me that in May. I'm going to speak boldly but I'm not going to use the language you use because he was kind of a colorful speaker being from Philadelphia, but he basically he said, you may not have locked Ronald Reagan as a president, but you have to admire his leadership style. And there's Marshall Smith was this man's name and this is what he taught me. He said you surround yourself with good and competent people, and then you'd be smart enough to stay the hell out of their way and let them do their job. He said you stay informed, but you do not micromanage you. Stay informed and case in this aspect. A Commissioner stopped you at lunch or something and asked you a question. About you. You want to be able to answer that question. And down here they're called council members and then county commissioners. But anyway, I've used that. But I learned that from him during my three years working for him and I've used that philosophy and it is the reason why I became a police chief so young and that I fell into the reformed police chief role. And I found that it empowers that my staff, they realize that I trust them and you know, I see as a leader, my job is not to do your job for you and I'm speaking to my staff My job is to support you and to get you every and anything you need within my means to be able to get within the budget and all to help you be able to do your job. You keep me informed, but I have to trust you enough to leave you alone and let you do your job. You would not believe hell, that is a morale builder, because apparently, you know, we all know the difference between managers and leaders, managers, make sure their trains run on time leaders inspire people. They help people to want to be at their best. And that's what he taught me to be and that's that's the leadership style I've used ever since and I've had great success with
it. Thank you. Question number four will come from it's helped me think systemically and inspires change.
Takes systematically and inspires change to describe your view of a 21st century civilian oversight agency, and tells us and tell us what efforts will you take to employ emerging trends and best practices toward improved investigative standards, oversight measures and initiatives? Well,
that well that is a loaded question. That's an entire semesters lecture right there. When I say loaded I don't mean bad I mean that that I don't know how I could possibly answer that in the amount of time that we have. But it is up to the leader and I use the term leader not manager to make sure that he or she stays abreast of all of these of any developments, particularly any case law and when you're dealing with administrative investigations, which sounds like that's predominantly what what would be the case then? You know, there's been a lot of developments since the guarantee rule was played, the Garrity case came into effect. Particularly with regard to public safety personnel, both police and firefighters. It doesn't matter. You know, any of those highly visible uniformed roles, but anyway, it's your it's my duty every day to stay abreast of the latest trends. If the ICP International Association of Chiefs of Police or any of the other subsequent associations that are recognized nationwide and state within your state, make a recommendation. It's the leaders job to evaluate that carefully to examine our existing policies and procedures and to make sure that we are leaving room for improvement for advancement, particularly if you're dealing with evidence as you know that case law changes every year. And you have to stay on top of it. Otherwise, you could have an entire case in an administrative hearing or a criminal matter. You know, your entire evidence could be deemed inadmissible fruit of a poisonous tree. If you're not if you're not current and and up to par on all your trends. Goodness, I could go on I love the question. But it would take me a full hour to to give you an answer that my my heart would tell me is sufficient. All I could tell you ma'am. Is that you lead by example. And if you're charged with being inclusive of the community that you serve, you make sure that especially as chief investigators that I would reflect the opinions and the decisions of the commission. As a chief investigator, I would see my role as being one of the most highly visible members of your team, but it's your team. And I mean that for a reason you're elected and or appointed is the case may be for a reason. And my job is to see that your desires, your objectives, and your goals are carried out to the best of my ability, and particularly when it involves keeping the department abreast of any current changes and trends. Oh, goodness, I probably better shut up there.
Yeah, thank you. And I noticed you submitted your application obviously last year as well. And even then when I pulled your name up, I was wondering, and you weren't still a judge at that time. What kind of colorful character was gonna leave Texas and come and suddenly Detroit and I can see participating
man if you if you need me and I feel it in my heart. That's where God wants me to go. I'll be on the next plane and I'll be honest,
I have a special request for you since you're in Texas. Dak Prescott won the Walter Payton Award. And I want to personally congratulate him and if you come to Detroit, please bring him to Detroit.
You know,
I've met I've met four presidents and I even met the legendary Tom Landry. Coach for 29 years the Cowboys but I have never met Dak Prescott I with all my connections in Texas. I have not been able to meet them.
That would be job one knows you've come to Detroit.
Well, if I come without him, I'll extend him a special invitation.
Thank you. Our next question will be Mr. Ferguson. manages conflict and crisis.
Yes, mine is on managing conflict and crisis. Tell us about a time when you had to address a situation when he became hostile and or created a hostile work environment. Oh
one jumps to mind immediately. You would think it would be the $19 million investigate internal theft and fraud that I discovered and boy in that one. I had city inspectors who were paid under the table to sign off that they inspected work that wasn't done. You name it. But you know what? I had a ironclad balls in Marshall Smith that I told you about the retired Philadelphia captain and I knew he had my back and I didn't really worry about who I was investigating. I just follow the money follow the crumbs wherever they lead me well that many many years later, which was the last municipal police job that I held outside Texas a&m University, a little community outside there. They had a lot of corruption in that little police department. They brought me in to fix it. They offered me a fantastic package and it was a two year contract which would have put me at my 20 years to retire after that. And the city manager hired me and he said I know I've got corruption within the police department. I need you to investigate it and if it leads anywhere else in the city, you follow it and this I'm going somewhere with this. So I did that and ended up charging two of my own officers was civil rights violations. They made a good arrest but then they they used excessive force on a handcuffed prisoner and there's I just have absolutely zero tolerance for that. So I fired them and we brought them up on credit they were indicted on criminal charges. However, right about when that happened, and there's a reason why I'm saying what I'm about to tell you. I went 19 and a half years without having to fire my weapon in the line of duty six months before our retired a man robbed the grocery store in the community. ran outside and carjacked her grandmother stole her car and then one of my officers who was a rookie past him got in a car chase and chase past right in front of me. I was on my way to a commission meeting that started at 6pm This was 520 Anyway, so I had to help him he had no other help. I fell in behind and the bad guy crashed as the officer and I ran up to pull him out of the crash car. The man reached over right in front of me and shot my officer right in the chest right in front of me. So a gun battle ensued and going somewhere with this. A gun battle ensued. Unfortunately the bad guy didn't survive. So when I when I say I've investigated every kind of crime and been involved in just about everything I have, even if we if it's a deadly force situation. I've been there. I know what those officers are thinking. I know what the Chiefs thinking. Where I go from there. Here's the answer to your question, sir. That officer recovered. He was put on light duty while he was on light duty. I had a report of we have y'all know what a rave is. It's a great big college party. This is right outside of Texas a&m University 50,000 students. We had a tip as to who was flying alcohol for the all the monitors that were attending the raid and this officer who's on light duty recovered, by the way that gave both of us the Medal of Honor. So I had kind of Medal of Valor that I had for that incident. So I had kind of a closer than normal connection with him and I'm rounding my quote my response down. He just got he came to me and he said chief I found where the alcohol is being provided, but you're not going to like it. I said, Don't tell me. I said follow the evidence wherever it goes, I don't care. And he said okay. A week later, I get a call from the city manager and he says I want you to bring that investigative file over to over to City Hall on the alcohol. And so I did I had no idea because I didn't I hadn't looked at the followers. I'm looking over there. Guess who's the person is? It's the city manager's grandson that's supplying the alcohol. So the city manager tells me to hand him over the file to fire the officer that was doing the investigation and to close the matter and that I would speak no more about it. I told him that wasn't going to happen. He said well you know your contract is up your 24 months are up in two weeks. If you don't play ball with me you're out the door in Texas we have what's called a council manager form of government. The city council appoints the city manager and he is the absolute ruler of personnel. You don't you don't have an appeal beyond him. He said well go home and think about it. I said you can send me home all you want but my answer is gonna be the same the next day, brought it in and I did not bring the case file back with me. I took it straight to the district attorney. And two weeks later true to his word. He did not renew my contract and out I went so I went ahead and retired but you don't want to retired with my hell. My head held high and with my honor in an integrity intact his grandfather was prosecuted and and alcohol being supplied to minors that those were a party stopped at least for a while. That was very tough situation. very tense situation. I had a son that was in high school and I didn't want to move again. I wanted make sure I promised him wherever he started high school. He finished high school. So I thought what am I going to do for a job? You know, I stood by my principles, but it cost me my job. I'm sure if I gave him the file and fire the officer and played ball. I'd have been appointed for two more years. But I wasn't going to do that. I think that's the best example that I can give you. Well, it's a good
it's a good one. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you for your interest your continued interest, obviously in this position and more than anything you're interested in serving the citizens of Detroit.
I think it would be the opportunity of a lifetime. If I can interject I truly do and I hope that I make it to the next round where I get to come visit all of you in person and if you'd like I'll bring some Texas barbecue I promise
Dak Prescott.
How about a Dak Prescott autograph. That'd be all right out of work.
We have about a million that's our x we have about four minutes left is there a quick question that you might have for us before we turn it over to Mr. Tipton?
Well, I would love to know what the what the you know, each state does things differently. I'd like to know Could you tell me what the next step in the process would be? So I have I'll know if I get an email that says thanks. No thanks. Or if I get a phone call, telling me what to expect next.
Absolutely. So you may or may not like this answer, but I'm going to give it to you straight which is we the process that we have in place for Chief Investigator. We're conducting all the interviews today in house there has been a pre screened process in partnership with HR Mr. Tipton, and in particular, there's been a thorough review of candidates. There's been an advancement of candidates selected by this committee, which is why we have you in front of us who were selected by this committee. After this interview, we have a scoring sheet that we're all going to compile together to figure out averages deliberate, ultimately select one candidate for this position today. Our commission meets every single Thursday. So at the next upcoming Thursday meeting which is the 16th of February. We are anticipating taking that recommendation to the full board for approval, which will then lead to a contingent offer letter and that's going to include background checks to everything that that has to happen with HR.
So we've got a fingerprint, you
know, that's how I was gonna tell you I hold two active police Commission's I'm still in we have in Texas called the police reserve, which is modeled after the Army National Guard Army Reserve. One weekend, a month, two weeks a year. I'm still an active member so I still have a current law enforcement license. I also have all of the instructor licenses that you could ever hope for in law enforcement. And I'm a graduate of the law enforcement leadership and command college at Sam Houston State which is commonly billed as the FBI National Academy of the South. Four states down here that can't afford to send somebody to a three month school at the FBI National Academy in Virginia. They created one down here. I'm also a graduate of that where I'm going with that is and I'm still a an associate, sitting associate judge, you can fingerprint me you can even print my toes, I promise I come back when
Mr. Tipton Go ahead. Yeah, you're here.
Yep. Again, thank you, Paul, for taking this afternoon to meet with the board. We appreciate your time as the board. Commissioner Hernandez stated we're still in the process of interviewing the candidates. Once the selection has been made. I will be reaching out to that candidate who's present the offer and solicit a start date.
Thank you so much. And I want to leave you all with one last thing if I may. If selected I will never allow myself to forget I represent you all I work for y'all. I know lots of chiefs tend to forget who they work for, but I don't. So I'll leave it there. All right.
Thank you, sir.
Very much.
You bet we'll see you. Right. All right. We will recess. Mr. Tipton. I believe we will recess until the next interview which is 310 Correct. No, that's not how I have that is 47 minutes. So we will recess until 305. So that we can start on time at 310. I could have kept talking to him, but that's not fair. So we will recess until then and reconvene again at 3:05pm. Thank you.
Thank you Sandman against
anybody police officer be
what are we muted ma'am? He was on person. Very close. When I saw his music