Lots of strange proposals and strange clients come along. And I think the more your confidence grows, the more confident you get of saying no. And to me it's intuition. Hello, and
welcome to the Business of Architecture podcast. I'm your host, Brian Willard. And today I had the great pleasure of speaking with L Berto tight at the brain behind studio Howe, which is in beautiful Surrey, just south of London in the UK. Really interesting location for practice. Interestingly, L and myself grew up in a very similar region of the country. So I was quite familiar with the territory that she was practicing in. And I was very impressed with her because I saw her actually, at the guerrilla tactics, the Riba guerrilla tactics, day, which is a kind of conference for small practices about how to grow your business and how to market how to brand yourself. And Elle gave a presentation on branding, and how she'd created the brand for studio owl. And all the sorts of things she's done, when she started up her practice, very recently, only in 2023. And I really thought that she'd gotten a really good grasp of creating a brand. She spoke about it very articulately that she was very focused on, you know, actually building out a niche or establishing a niche, understanding the demographics of that niche, understanding which nice was actually going to be profitable for her a niche that she had access into very thoughtful kind of selection there. And she's built the brand around serving that clientele. So the brand was very customer client focused, we go into some of the things that she did in actually being able to establish that. We talked about networking and prospecting referrals and winning work. And a really just good example of a startup business or a business that's in the early phases of its life. Getting some of the fundamentals early and put into place, and really, really exciting. business woman that is here with me, so I thoroughly enjoyed talking with our really good podcast here with lots of nuggets of gold. So sit back and relax, and enjoy. l Berto tight. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you. Please follow the link in the information owl. Welcome to the Business of Architecture. What a pleasure to see you again and to have you on the podcast. How are you?
Hi, Ryan, thank you so much for having me. I am good. Yes. Excited to have a chat and to continue our discussion.
Excellent. So you are the founder and principal of studio l based in beautiful Surrey whereabouts? I'm sorry, are you?
I live in Sutton. So actually right on the outskirts of London and just before the leafiness and beauty began. So
it will I'm right now I'm in Perley, actually, which is just around the corner from you. So I didn't realize that until just now. Oh, crikey, you're you're, you're right around the corner. Yeah, it's very, very nice part of the country here. And you've got a wonderful architecture interiors practice, you've got a very stunning portfolio of high end residential properties as a very distinct kind of beautiful role, lots of textural materials that you use in your in your palettes of interiors, and also a very kind of distinct brand. And I think that's one of the things we will focus on today to talk about and I was very impressed when I saw you talk at the Riba guerrilla tactics, and you were giving a masterclass on building a brand for your practice, how you've done it, how you've engaged with Instagram, how you've developed your website, and how you've put this idea of branding at the forefront of your of your business and how you've been using it to negotiate when work and kind of develop and build relationships so perhaps we'll we'll start there with For you what does what is what is what is the studio l brand? What does branding mean for you?
So the way I see a brand it is a shopfront to whatever's service you're providing or the product that you're selling. And it's a visual translation of your values, and the language and language which is written as well as visual that other people see. Got
it? And when you started your practice, what was the kind of the thinking behind developing a brand? Was it something that you knew that you wanted to do from the outset? Or was it kind of you started up your business first and then realize something was missing?
It was a core part of developing a business. So when I first set out, I needed to create a website, establish social media presence, and curate an Instagram account, and all of those other things that all of us have to do when we start a new studio on an office or an office. So it was a way of trying to distill who I was, personally, professionally, what kind of clients I wanted to attract, and to curate my past work and also generate some aspirational work in order to attract the clients that I was aiming for.
Got it? And was it something that you did with the help of a, like an outside consultant, or a kind of third, like a, like an another AI to help you develop that brand, or was it a more self directed thing?
It was completely self directed. So I do have to say that there was a lot of trial and error in it as well. And many iterations of trying to distill the language into something that I felt resonated, the first couple of times definitely looked like I was sort of anything for anyone. And it was it was still baby steps into trying to gain the confidence to look the way I feel like I want to look, and it's an ongoing journey. Still.
Often, when I talk about marketing to the clients, or other architects, I'll often kind of set a paradigm if you like that marketing is a test, everything in marketing is a test. And when when we get into that mindset, it makes it a little bit easier, because we can look at a branding strategy or a marketing strategy. And we might identify three different types of ideal clients. And then we can run a little marketing test for each one to see which one resonates. And then we do that, and then you see that okay, well, one of the three really, really resonates. And inside of that, that, that one, there's three other niches that I can develop on, and then we can start kind of digging down. And so this is kind of iterative approach, very akin to the design approach. When when you were kind of setting up your, your, your brand, what were the sorts of tests that you were you were running? And what kinds of experiments were you doing, what were you looking for?
I think it was exactly what you just what you just mentioned, Brian, it was trying to trying to get a better understanding what sort of projects I wanted to work on. So again, going from a standard career of working for someone else, and someone else's office where they had a prescribed way of working and how things looked, to then having the autonomy to find your own feet. It wasn't as easy as it sounds, because you know, I think we all think, Oh, if I just I could just do that myself that I would do x. And then when you actually land there you go, Ah, let me have a think what I actually want to do and how I want to look and what people I want to interact with. So I think going through things in a visual way. And you know, all of us designers are very visual people helped me grow and kind of create a strategy, how I want my business to develop.
When you were working for somebody else, were there little nuggets of gold that you picked up from their branding activities, or was it the opposite?
Um, I think they'll the messaging was quite good, I guess. No, actually, I think it's probably the ethos of the of the office was very strong, not Mark, they didn't really do marketing. As such, it was an incredibly organic word of mouth sort of service. I think if I did marketing, the office would absolutely explode. So I guess one thing I probably took away from that, that you can be incredibly strong and good at what you do. But if you're not actively putting it out there, the world doesn't the world doesn't really know what you do. So you ended up having clients who are friends of clients, and you know, but for sort of the inner circle, where when you start out you don't have that luxury so it's kind of you have no choice but to have to go and create a brand.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, isn't it, you know, architecture school design school. There's a kind of dictum that floats around of like, you know, let your work speak for itself, which is, which is just suicide when running a business. You have to be the voice of your work. Your work does not have the company have the capability of speaking for itself, you've got to be the one that's that's doing that. When you when you first started out, then what were you looking for in terms of defining your voice? Or defining your your message? What kinds of how did you know when it was working? How did you know when to kind of let go of a certain idea? And what were the sorts of tools that you were focusing on to develop your brand.
So, at first, I started with looking at other architects and designers in the industry that I admire, I look up to I like the aesthetic that they work towards. So that was my starting point. But then I very quickly realized that some of them were doing it. Well, some of them not. So well, some of them, I could see that they could do a lot better in terms of, I think the key part that I was seeing that was missing was architects, I'm not very good at explaining what they do. So they just assumed that, you know, our clients understand exactly what what we do and why we deserve fees that we asked for, and so on. So I think that was my first sort of big lightbulb moment to go, oh, right, I now I have to actually talk about what I do and talk in, you know, the language of the client, not another architect, some of the websites that I was coming across all that, you know, beautiful language that we use, and we can Co Op go on for days with our terminology would not resonate. So what I did, I actually started looking at some of the really good product designers, graphic designers, some of them were really amazing, bespoke, or sort of boutique estate agents. So people who weren't in the industry, but I was able to learn from from them, a lot of the wax galleries really like boutique object galleries, and art galleries. And they had a very distinct language, which was quite memorable, but also still approachable from the clients perspective.
So you're going through a process of kind of eradicating archy speak and starting to use a language that was more palatable for a target demographic.
Absolutely. And that came with a different set of issues. Because all sudden, I was faced with this, you know, internal and professional dilemma of commercials versus creative, and it's what you've touched upon earlier. And that's a very difficult conversation to have with yourself. Because as as you said, we are brought up in that cult where your work speaks for yourself, you shouldn't have to do any marketing, you don't need to speak about what you do, or show people what you do. And that is completely the opposite. All of those things. But it's very hard to accept that and also start and do that with elegance and the style and the quality that you want to you want to develop and that represents who you are, as
well. It's interesting, because when I when I look through some of your marketing collateral, and you know, again, the knowing as well that you're local to hear, for example, so this is I was brought up in in Croydon, right. And, and so I know this and I went to school in Sutton and I know this out, and I know the kind of and I also very aware of the kind of aspirational Greenbelt areas and that kind of language and those sorts of people as well. And it's really interesting, because there was that kind of looking at your work, looking at the materials, looking at the language. There's like a homeliness about it that I can connect with or, like, there's something geographical about it. I don't know what exactly it is. Was that was was that part of your branding? Was that me kind of inferring that?
It's interesting, because it was never my intention. I think a lot of it comes from my, my background, my experience of what I'm, you know, high end, Notting Hill, sort of, you know, projects, very high end, beautiful, very, sort of art based as well, where we curate that's bases around art. So I think that was one part of a puzzle. And another part of the puzzle was probably my Northern European background and sort of, like Scandinavian twist. And then the third part is actually being you know, I grew up in Surrey, so maybe like something is, subconsciously is coming out. But why is this interesting? It's because I had maybe two or three clients that are now my full clients actually say that saying, Okay, well, we have these beautiful properties on the Green Belt, were looking for architect, and there's something about you, which is not quite the typical suburban architect, but also we can still resonate and relate. So It's working. Yeah. Well, no, it's
interesting, because it's the it's the aspirational part of it as well, which is kind of like, I know that there's a demographic certainly in these areas that have that, that you know, because your your brand taps into something desirable. And that's not something it's not as it's not that is that's a little bit intangible for a lot of architects to be able to kind of get their heads around. And sometimes we're very good at creating desire for other architects, but to create desire for homeowners is something a little bit a little bit different and actually quite interesting. Just have interesting whereabouts in in sorry, did you grow up where you are now in Sutton?
Yeah, exactly. So like near Banstead? So I'm right on the edge.
I have to ask where did you go to school?
I went to high which was good you. So it was not a good show?
You went to Cheim. Home with the brown with the brown uniforms?
No, it was navy. No Brown is sinful. aminos which? Oh,
okay. I know set family. Okay. St. Philomena is yes, that was it. I went to Wilson's. Well, I don't know where it was. It wasn't in it's in Wellington. Ah, yeah. Okay. All right. Well, there you go. Probably saw you on the buses sometime years ago. So, okay. Very, very interesting. So in terms of when you've now you've set up the your, your your brand? What are you looking for then to be able to judge whether it's successful or not?
My main measure is clients that potential clients that get in touch, which fit my ideal client? Sort of criteria. Right.
And, and are you marketing as well, specifically to kind of very, you know, target housing typologies? Or was it more democratic of person?
No, I think it's a it's a certain personality and certain taste. And I guess, as you said, demographic of the person that they would they would find this appealing, and it would take all of our boxes.
Got it? And so what kinds of sales strategies then do you use? How does your sales process work? What does it what does it look like from start to finish, if you like, of how a client discovers you? Are they do they fall into a kind of studio l marketing ecosystem, and you're kind of you kind of seducing them, if you like with content and newsletters and things like that. And then there's a kind of call to action, and then you jump on a phone, what's the sort of what is the funnel look like? From them finding discovering you to then actually working with you.
So there's no there's no funnel as such, I think I stand by my ethos of everything being quite bespoke and tailor made. So which I guess in the long term will not become very commercially sustainable, because it takes a lot of time to onboard clients. So usually, they would get in touch, we would start a conversation. If they're quite local to here, I would go straight to their house and meet them in person. And then we would chat and get to know one another. Then I go away. And I put together a bespoke fee proposal. Because most of my clients, it's incredible. There is no standard fee structure, because all of them are incredibly varied in terms of scope, scale, and ambition. And then we take it from there, so. So it works for now, because there aren't many projects. And I quite like that I really, I really want to keep it well, in that sense. But I think as I scale, there will be certain measures that are needed to control it. And
how do you negotiate or how do you deal with say other other competition? Do you find yourself ever in that situation where you've given a client a proposal and they're actually shopping around? And there's two other architects that they're looking at? How do you how do you broach that as a conversation? How do you navigate around there?
So I think, the location where I am, and given that most of my projects are within the Greenbelt Sorry, I have one in Hartfordshire. So sort of the home counties it's a very specific demographic and a very specific type of project. So my competition is much smaller than say you were in East London and you will learn every extension. So I think that's to my advantage and to my benefit, but I also I also think that the right client, the one that resonates with my aesthetic and my service and me personally will go for studio L at the end of the day so I really I really try not to focus too much on the competition. And just I believe that the right fit will come along.
And and if the client they say to you like when we're looking at other other artists tax or because often we know particularly in the sort of, as you move outside of London, it, the market kind of changes a little bit. And as you were saying there's a, there's a kind of a bit of a bit of a spread between the sorts of architects that you can, that you can get access to. And it's not always clear to a client, you know, well, what's the why is this architect charging this amount of money? Why is this architect charging this amount of money? And you're charging that? Did that? Does that ever happen? Do you ever have the clients there? They're either confused, or how do we, how do we educate them?
I think we educate them through extensive conversation and through explaining why your fees cost, what they cost. So as I said, my long onboarding process of the clients, basically shows them that level of service that they will be receiving. So you know, I don't cap my revisions, for example, and I explained it to them, I say, Look, my charge, my my fees will be most likely much larger than most of other people who speak to, but we will work until you're happy with what you get. And I keep educating them about the process of planning the pros and cons, you know, what do they get the face spends 900 pounds on the planning permission, which I've heard people say, so I tried to educate them, you know, what we'll think about it? What what is what does that money go to by you? And are you then going to rush into that process? Yep, planning, and then realize that you have a design that you absolutely do not want, and you can't even afford to build? Or do you want to work with someone who will be taking you step by step in great amount of detail and very slowly and educating you through this process. And that's the message I have on my website as well. So I say that I work with clients, not on behalf of the clients before. And I also empower them. So my role is not to impose a design on them, my role is to assist them in making the right decision and just steer their visual language. And, again, show them all the options that are available to them in an educated way, and let them be in control of it. So I tried to be as clear as I can about it from the beginning.
How do you know when it's not the right fit for you? Do you ever attract a client or attract a prospect? And within maybe the first conversation, you're like, This is not going to be a good idea. And if that does happen, what how do you gracefully remove yourself from any further communications?
bad happens? Quite, I wouldn't actually I wouldn't say often. So it used to happen much more often right? At the beginning, when I realized that I was still trying to find my feet, my brand was not quite there yet. And I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, I tried to almost be everything for everyone. Because I think out you need to bring money in, you're a little bit uncertain, you know, how, you know, in terms of confidence, and everything else. So lots of strange proposals and strange clients come along. And I think the more your confidence grows, the more confident you get of saying no. And to me, it's intuition, but I feel it straightaway. This someone can call me and just from the way they speak to me, you know, if they're agitated, or they're rushing out, or they're already annoyed, and you go, hang on, I haven't never even spoken to you. So there are so many different clues the way yeah, the way they even phrase an email, you know, if they're not even bothering to say hello, or you know, to end with kind regards or anything like that. Clues everywhere. And the second you pick up on them. You have to really listen to it. Because if you have red flags so early on, it's just going to end up in tears. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, it's so it's so interesting, the architectural or interior design relationship with the client is so particularly in residential was so intimate. And there's also with the residential clients, there's always a kind of heightened level of anxiety and stress. And, you know, I know for myself when we've done our own when we've done our own renovations, that every decision suddenly becomes Uber important. And there's unnecessary amount of thought and thinking that goes into it. Whereas when it's something more commercially focused, it's there's a, there's maybe something there's a different set of criteria that's in that's enforcing decision making, which can make it flow more quickly. And that relationship, obviously, particularly the residential clients, very intimate with the architect. And ultimately, you're right, you are going to be spending a lot of time with each other. And if the relationship doesn't work, then the whole project becomes very difficult. And it's you know, this is when one side stops to not communicate so well and as soon as that happens, that's when we get upset? Well, that's when that's when you know, change orders don't get fulfilled, or we get problems or payments we get into, you know, the, you know, it can become very unnecessarily adversarial very quickly within the wrong relationship and be very expensive for the architect's perspective. So when so when you do you know, you get a sense that it's not the right client, what would you normally do? Would you just tell them, hey, I don't think this is gonna be the right fit. Or, you know, here's another architect down the road, probably talk to them.
I have done that, actually. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I think the more we did that to one another, and more sustainable our business would be, and it's not to say, Oh, I'm too good. And go to that person, actually, it's the opposite. I will be the first person to admit to someone, if they came to me to say, Oh, can you turn this around in six months, and we just want a very simple job. And off we go, I go, No, because that's not the service that I provide. But I know a great design and build company down the road who specialize in that, and they are great, and they will give it give you a brilliant service at a very reasonable price, and you will get exactly what you want. And I will, I will send them that way. I think the world of architecture would be a much better place. If we all did that. We had that, you know, confidence and just the kindness to go. You know, I think that person is better suited for you. And you would someone else would send people your way, because you might be better suited for for them. Yeah,
no, I totally agree with you on that, you know, just being honest and straightforward. And being like this is not actually a fit, and actually taking some time for yourself to consider what is the right client fit for you. So that you know, when somebody comes who's not a fit that you can, you know, you can gracefully push them in the other direction or say, here's a better choice. It's not going to work out for us. And you know, the money that you save, doing that is enormous, absolutely enormous. And in terms of your, you know, the business structure that you've got, what kind of scale? Are you out at the moment? It
is just me, and it is just me by design. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to leave the standard office, I really wanted autonomy. And I wanted to be in charge of everything. I guess I wasn't sure exactly what I'm signing up for. Let's put it that way. Sometimes there are too many hats. But I enjoy the fact that I don't need to discuss anything with anyone, like I just go with my own feeling on things and kind of try to solve problems as I go along. There are some difficulties with that sometimes sometimes you do need someone to run ideas past. But most of the time, it seems to work quite well. And I would like to stay quite small actually. What was
it that had you? Is it something that you've always wanted to do as as an architect you'd always had in your in your mind on when I set up my own practice?
No, not at all. If you asked me the same question, even two, three years ago, I would have said no, absolutely. I'm happy working for someone else. I don't have a stress, I do what I need to do. I really liked my job, I was very happy. I think it was COVID COVID was the thing that showed all of us that as another way of life. And to start with I was living in central London. And then when I moved back to Surrey, during COVID. Then when the offices reopened, all of a sudden, I was faced with a three hour daily commute. But if everything went to plan and the trains were running, and very quickly realized that it's just not the way I want to live, and I really enjoy where I live, and I don't want to move, if anything, I'm moving more to the countryside. So I thought there has to be a way to do this and to be able to live where you want to live.
Interesting. And then so you made you started to make the moves of setting up your own business. Did you have a client ready to go before you left? Or was it more of a sudden kind of, we're gonna jump into it and see what happens.
It was exactly that sort of thing. Once the floodgates opened of this, like urge for independence and autonomy in life. professionally. I handed in my notice. And then I didn't have anything there were there were no there weren't even contacts because I never really thought about it seriously. It was not. There was very minimal preparation. But what I had was six months of my notice and then I thought okay, so now I'm going to save like I've never saved before. Give myself you
gave a six month notice. I had to you had to Okay, all right.
That was quite a long, long time. So then I had six months to kind of start preparing for What was about to happen? And that was January last year. So I've sort of celebrated my first birthday.
Congratulations. And that's, that's
quite good actually, like, you know, the, like a six month or six months notice in this kind of context that they try and, you know, negotiate for you to stay on or off for you any anything to kind of? Yeah,
I think I think it was quite hard for the office to accept my departure. But it was just one of those things. It is, it is business at the end of the day. But yeah,
once once the ideas kind of start to take root, then it's difficult to, to let go of it.
Those are no.
So how long did it take you to win your first, your first project? And, you know, were you developing the brand during that six months? So you had a little bit of overlap? And you were kind of setting stuff up? No,
I wasn't. And you know, what, I found that I almost couldn't mentally it was. I think people fall into two different categories, there will be those people who will start the what they call the side hustle, you know, on the side, whilst they're still working in the office, they will start the you know, the thing rolling, start looking for, for clients start networking, building a website. And they still have that confidence of a paycheck at the end of the month. I couldn't do that. I just felt like, well, I'm so comfortable. Maybe wasn't my better need to do my own thing. Like, this is so good, right? Like it was what you know, you're comfortable in that environment. And I knew that I needed to jump off the cliff. And then so okay, I have six months of savings. And I have to find clients, there is no other way. And then I was faced with everything that hits you once you make that step because you go, Okay, so there's a time clock literally ticking, and I have to do everything that I don't want to do have never done before. Network, what is even networking to find clients.
Amazing, amazing. And where did your first client come from?
Okay, so my first client actually came immediately it was within, within days of me starting, but that was actually through another architect that I deal with. So they had a smaller project. And they said, Oh, I think it'd be a great match if we if we worked together on this project. And it was more than theory based projects, I jumped on bat. And that gave me three months sort of freelancing employment situation where I was able to do that a couple of days a week and then teach and also, you know, look for clients properly. But the first big client for studio like independently came in, I think it was around June. So actually, those six months are like almost on the dot. Right?
Wow. Amazing. It's very interesting, actually, like when we when we kind of look at that, you know, the things that we do to win the first the first projects and the kind of going outside and getting very uncomfortable, and there's a whole world of, you know, no, I've got to go networking, or where do I even begin to network and then, you know, there can be like, six months worth of going to loads of really dodgy networking events with bad wine and, you know, not the kind of people that you want to be hanging out with. And then eventually, if you stumble across the right thing, and you've got to think about, well, what niche do I want to be in. And often we have this bit of a dislike a difference between our own minds of what we think is a good niche, certainly when we're set setting up a practice, versus what is actually real niches that are tangible. On the on the outside. When you again, when you first started, and you were kind of looking for clients, and kind of this is all part and positive, the developing the brand. What was your starting point? Were you kind of consciously thinking, you know, there's a there's a demographic here in Surrey, and that kind of Greenbelt. I can approach or was it something more left field?
No, it was definitely that and again, that just goes on my experience. I know that market that like I know the high end market very well, and what sort of service goes with it, I know how it operates. And it's something I really enjoy. I enjoy the spoke design and, and details which are, you know, an objects which are expensive, and I'm not going to be apologetic about it. And I think I went through a stage when I felt like I had to be like, Oh no, I'm going to design for you know, I want to make design accessible to all and this and that and then and then you very quickly realize that you know what, like stick to what you know and what you like and you don't have to apologize for it. And there's a bit of a stigma and teasing amongst other architects that just design marble bathrooms. Yeah, but actually like I enjoy it and my clients. Good, good.
Good. No, that's actually very, that's very interesting that the, you know, what you just pointed upon, they're actually the guilt that a lot of architects feel about who they're designing for, or their clientele. And this is a really interesting kind of industry conversation to look at a little bit, because I see it all the time. And I see many architects, perhaps not having a very mature attitude to the mechanics of capitalism and the mechanics of like, you're now running a business. And whilst it's very virtuous to, to make design accessible for all, and I'm not saying that that's not something that we should be interested in, there's a responsibility when you're when we're talking about those things that they need to be supported financially. And so what happens unintentionally, is that we get a lot of architecture businesses that end up negating the business side, or even seeing, you know, charging high fees or working with a certain type of demographic as being problematic. And it might be problematic due to a set of ideologies or belief systems that they've got. And then usually what happens is those businesses really, really struggle. And it becomes it can become quite difficult. So it's very reassuring to actually hear that actually, you know, you were being quite authentic with your own set of values, and what you enjoy doing. And he knew that that was a marketplace that you were quite comfortable when and where you're able to do your best work.
Yeah, and I think there's a certain sort of cynicism that comes with, with this notion that you have to, you know, have rock bottom fees, and, and do good and save the world. And, again, I resonated with what you said, I think these are amazing ethos to try and work towards. But you know, then you have the reality where you need to make a living. And also, there's still clients, there's still people, it's still design, you still get an amazing project, and you have a high budget to play with as well. So I don't know, I don't I don't see what the what this crime is. Like, no,
I'm no, I'm, I'm, I'm totally with you. And I used to work at Richard Rogers practice, RSA, HP. And he had a very strong philosophy of, you know, being able to design for everybody. And he was often he often very publicly was making a declaration for, you know, civic architecture and architecture for people. And as a practice, they wanted to do a lot of kind of social housing and more affordable housing type of work, and actually had a very good research department there, where they were pioneering kind of modular building, and this is like, 15 years ago, and you know, that and, you know, obviously, Woods got built, and a lot of that kind of stuff was supported by the fact that they were very commercially thoughtful and well run business. And he didn't make a distinction between, you know, we're also going to serve the top strata of society, because by able, for us being able to do that, we can keep the business going. And we can keep people employed. And we can keep the thinking going around architecture. And as architects, we are here to serve everybody. And there's a kind of commercial reality of, of when you when you make a concerted business effort to work with an identify, and again, when I work with, with clients, and we're looking at, you know, finding a niche market, one of the criteria to assess if this market is going to be good is is it going to be profitable? And I, you know, I've I've seen businesses who have gone into the world of doing focusing on commercial on community work, for example, and then they're not paying themselves. And they haven't got people on that, you know, they can't afford to pay their team properly. And there's a there's a, there's a, there's a lack of integrity with that, for me. It just commercially it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And, you know, it's I think it's very important for us to as an industry to mature and grow up and have, you know, much more robust conversations about capitalism, where money comes from where are places is in it, and actually, that doing businesses is a very important skill set to be developing, if you're going to run your own company, for sure. Yeah, I agree. So what's next?
What is next, attracting more of the clients that I that I want to work with? So I have no big ambition of it. spending in terms of you know, hiring people or bringing on 20 different projects, I think is just getting a higher caliber for clients and the properties that I want to work with. So it seems like I have falling into a bit of a niche, which I didn't predict when I started out of working within the greenbelt and aonbs. And incredibly beautiful sights, but also very difficult side. So now I exclusively work with a planning consultant. And we're kind of joined forces, and we go in on those really difficult applications, which is definitely not what I envisioned when I started. But it's something that works incredibly well, when you let different experts do different roles. And you don't try to pretend that you know, you know, the ins and outs of the planning law and you let someone else handle it. That just opens up your creativity to actually focus on the design. So I think I would love to explore this niche further and kind of, you know, stay stay in the home counties area and work on really nice sites.
Fantastic, brilliant. Were very inspiring to speak with you and to see what you've done in such a short period of time. And, you know, it's got your a good sort of business head and identified a very good demographic and wonderful to speak to you. So thank you very much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise.
Thank you so much for having me. And that's a wrap.
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