What to make of the Brazilian election news | Global Journalism Seminar with Natalia Viana | Otter.ai

What to make of the Brazilian election news | Global Journalism Seminar with Natalia Viana

Reuters Institute1h 5min

Caithlin Mercer

00:06

Hello, and welcome to the Reuters Institute first global journalism seminar of the new academic year. We have a fresh roomful of new journalist fellows downstairs, and an exciting lineup of speakers for our webinar series that aims to foster a global conversation about journalism with and for journalists. And I can't think of a bigger story or a better guest to kick off our year. With then, Natalia Viana, the co founder and co director of Agenzia publica, the first nonprofit investigative news agency in Brazil. Natalia is an award winning investigative journalist and author, president of the Brazilian association of digital journalism and a Nieman Fellow who joins us live from Sao Paulo, three days after one of the most consequential general elections in the history of Brazil. Main veins Natalia.

Speaker 1

01:07

Thank you very much for having me. I'm super humbled and thankful for this opportunity to talk to you.

Caithlin Mercer

01:14

It's great. It's great to have you. What's the mood like in Sao Paulo at the moment?

Speaker 1

01:19

It depends who you ask. Oh, I guess if you're asking for journalists, the mood is not very good. The was not very good because even though polls predicted a Lula would win the first round, which he did. The polls were showing the Bolsonaro would have much less support and he had the final numbers were about 48.50 against 43.50%. And this shows for us journalism have been repeatedly attacked in a way that had never happened in the Brazilian history, that either the public doesn't care or is not aware of the reducing democratic space that's happening in Brazil. I am an investigative journalist from Mizzou, but I report a lot in Latin America. I have many friends and I'm also in the board of the Gabrielle Garcia Marcus foundation. So I've seen exactly the same thing happen in many other countries. Same thing happened in Venezuela. The same thing happened in Nicaragua. The same thing happened in Honduras and El Salvador now, and it's it's the journalists are on the front line, and they're the first ones to feel the heat when there is an autocrat, who is trying to grab more power. So every serious journalist in Brazil knows that this is what Bolsonaro ones, but it seems that that the majority of the society, or at least for 3% not aware of the threat that democracy is facing right now. So the mood for journalists have been repeatedly abused and threatened and harassed is not very good. But so basically, what happened in this election was that the polls show that Lula was ahead, but also other other left wing or Democratic candidates were ahead in many government cities, but also for the Senate. And this is considered a big win for Bolsonaro because even though the polls were showing the opposite, he managed to elect a big amount of senators. I think he elected five or six who were his ministers were very associated with himself personally. He elected a bunch of governors and the main you know, the main, the largest state in population and wealth, which is San Paolo, which has been a resistance for the Boston idealism wave. Actually, his candidate who is completely new to politics in Sao Paulo is way ahead of Mueller's candidates. So it was a big win overall for Bolsonaro. Not not even if he is behind in the presidential race, but he has established himself Yeah, he himself and his political view as a political force in Brazil, and at the same time the problem with the post is a very serious one because Brazil much like the US, I don't know what is the situation in the UK right now, but it's seeing a wave of negation used in you know, feelings in society and having like, having elect Institute's their work with science and mathematics. Yeah, you really wrong can really affect how people view Institute's in general polling and evidence or if I was too long, oh, yeah, no,

Caithlin Mercer

05:01

that makes a lot of sense. I actually want to go more into that. But before we do, can I ask for those who might not be familiar with the political system? What is a runoff mean? What happens over the next 30 days, or less than 30? Fewer than 30 days?

Speaker 1

05:20

So basically, in Brazil we don't have a queen. We also elect our government directly. So it's one man one vote. We vote for president and governors in the first round and also Senate and Congress. If none of the if none of the leading candidates in the presidential election in the presidential poll gets more than 50%. Then we have a second round and this happens for president but it also happens for government so they really think the nine governors running for a second round and then Bolsonaro and Lula which I mean, it's almost like a tie because it's for the age of 43. So it's going to be the next we have now 30 days, less than 30 days we have 25 days for the second round. And it's it's going to be very tight wherever the result is.

Caithlin Mercer

06:16

And it's presidential and nine Governor positions out of positions.

Speaker 1

06:21

It's about 24 total. Let me guess how many Governor Well, anyways, is around nine is around. Yeah, it's around. I know that I can get you the precise data. Workers but I mean, there is a there is still like Sao Paulo, the largest state is still going to have second round and then it's complaining all over against the streets, trying to get allies there is electro programs on TV or radio, so it's so it's a new election.

Caithlin Mercer

06:57

It's a whole brand new campaign with a brand new campaign. Do you think back to the polls that you were talking about? Do you think the inaccuracy of the polls benefits in either party? Do you think maybe made potential Lula voters stay home or potential Bolsonaro versus stay home or be more likely to go to the polls?

Speaker 1

07:28

Let me just first ask you the number of states or number of states that you wish the governor was elected was 14, there is 12 that are going to have a second round a lot more the majority then what I think so I think I'm not sure it's if it's about the inaccuracy of the polls. There is a lot of debate all okay, so most scenarios, Congress congressman who were very closeable scenario, his leaders in Congress wants to start parliamentary inquiry against the polls and the Justice Minister has slouch has requested an investigation against the danger to so this is the kind of you know, Chavez like discourse that we're seeing here. Right. I think both always influence elections. I don't I don't I think it could go either way. Right. So we have no idea so Lula was was very much ahead. And the polls were showing had 50% of the vote or 50 or 51. So I mean, people could have decided to vote for him and then they decided to vote for balsa narrow, which is basically what happened was that there were two candidates that were much smaller, they had five percentage and then you know the voters of this candidate decided to vote for both on they could have decided for Lulu, I mean, either you either you agree that there must be polls or agree that there must not be polls, but you know, sometimes Polls can get it wrong. And yeah, they do affect the votes, but I guess they also bring information for people to decide.

Caithlin Mercer

09:02

I'm also quite fascinated that by a project that agency or public has undertaken, I know this has been a fairly violent campaign season. Can you tell us a little bit about your project to track violence, and I know you're not a fortune teller, but do you think that this trend will continue? Is there a concern around violence in in this interim period?

Speaker 1

09:31

Yes, I am a very bad storyteller. Sorry, there's a future Teller and a storyteller. I am a good storyteller. So everything I've predicted since 2013, he was wrong. So don't take my word for anything. But this is not fortune teller. This is reality. With Bolsonaro has come back with Big Boss honors big splash in 2018. Electro violence has become effect in Brazilian society. It is not I mean, if you consider the Brazil has shown 10 million people. It is still, you know, isolated events here and there. So this in this first round of the elections, we have counted 150 events that included violence they include attacks they include really really violent events such as shooting the stabbing, these exists, however many of them are also you know, people just you know, being verbally violent against each other and etc, etc. We do not count that threats. And we do not count internet violence, which is that is like Whoa, that is completely widespread. But the reason we do this is because this did not happen in Brazil arrow into 2018. There was not this this was not a part of our elections and now it is and the reason is, is because Bolsonaro Bolsonaro is so bizarre doesn't have really, or he doesn't lay out very clearly what is his vision for the country, but he lays out very clearly what he is against. So his entire following is based on hatred and the will to exterminate a certain fraction of society. It changes it he modulated discourse from time to time, but basically, you know, it's leftists, communists, LGBT QI plus feminists. Progressives in January and this way, I mean, he's this course is very, very similar to Donald Trump in the US. And he talks about eliminating them he has been saying this, and when you when you want to raise another political force when you send these kinds of message when you were aggressive and violence yourself, basically, you just you know, you're sending the message that anybody can do this. So people who are you know, more violent people who are more stable, they just go into it. So we've seen episodes that were really bad we've seen, you know, shooting, we've seen people being stabbed. There was this horrible event in the Northeast in which a guy arrived in a bar and said, Who is a lulu support and this woman said he stabbed her in cuter. So it was, this is the kind of thing we're seeing in Brazil anyway. So I think it's very important because it's so it's so it all stems from a violent political discourse. And we know that words lead to actions and we know that words are really spread through social media. So people who are like old days kind of politician politicians and leaders still say, oh, no, it's just words, but it isn't. It's making our society more violent. Oh, is the opposition doing

Caithlin Mercer

13:03

anything to counter that rhetoric? And is is there any way to counter that rhetoric?

Speaker 1

13:09

There is a there's a lot of debate. I mean, the opposition has denounced it again and again, and I mean, it has denounced it in course, and he has now said, you know, to the police. One of the articles we published recently is about, you know, all the candidates that had shoe to go around doing campaign with security guards. And this is a new reality in Brazil. This didn't exist in the past. And the whole campaign in the beginning until like, until we think a week ago or now now it's a bit worse. It tried to focus on a positive message on on uniting the country getting rid of poverty and hunger of the of imagining a future that could be and of course, this has had some success because he was ahead imposed his 5 million votes more than Bolsonaro but his his votes had been down for a while had gone down a little bit and then he went up again, but so we had some success, but I don't think he was capable of containing either the violence in the speech or you know, the effects on the streets. And then they've started to actually also being you know, a little bit more aggressive. You know, just bringing up stories about personalities, corruption, etc, etc. So it so the entire debate has been tainted by this aggressiveness. But also I don't think was an arrow. I really I think both are is the most genuine person you will find he I don't think he I think this is how he functions. Right? This is how this is who he is. And he cannot like it's really hard for him to not be aggressive and violent. So we had an episode that was extremely shocking. They were in a in a debate on TV on national TV and a journalist asked the question at woman journalist, female journalist, and he was up he abused her verbally, like out of nowhere because of a question in front of everybody. So this is the kind of person we're dealing with. So I don't think much I think this is this is his rhetoric. If if it's presently in societies, you know, applauded it's, there's very little that you can do as an opposition party. I think

Caithlin Mercer

15:47

I have to ask in this tracker. I'm assuming you're tracking the political ideology of aggressor and, and and victim is, is it exclusively Bolsonaro supporters who are being violent or is there violence from both sides?

Speaker 1

16:10

There is a little bit of violence from both sides. So the numbers that we were publishing a story in a couple of hours, which I haven't seen the figures, so the story we published in, in last Friday, we managed to record and check 75 cases of violence out of the 75 cases. More than so 57% We could not state clearly who was who the attacker supporter, but 36% were Bolsonaro supporters and 9% were Lula supporters. Okay. So you can see that it is that there is some violence from the loose parts, but you know, three times more, almost four times more come from Botswana.

Caithlin Mercer

16:59

Is it possible that data is a little bit skewed because of the types of audience that engage with your work?

Speaker 1

17:08

I think it could be a little bit skewed, but I think if there were cases of violence against Bolsonaro supporter, the Bolsonaro networks would make huge a huge fuss about this. And yeah, I mean our audiences left leaning definitely but we are also monitoring for our MS information project. We monitor a lot of Busan, irises private messaging groups and also social network. So basically what I what I read most of my day is what they think yeah, and really, there are many. There isn't many reports of it. So the way we kept the way we capture this data is we have a questionnaire in our website, we spread it through our social media, we also follow the news so newspapers from all over Brazil that are reporting on this, and we also follow social media, people who follow us if people don't follow us. So yeah, these are the cases that we could get you.

Caithlin Mercer

18:10

Yeah, that's fascinating. So what did you say? 36% versus 9%? Yes, yeah. I saw a picture on your website. Have I believe Duda is the name of the politician or transplantation surrounded by six or seven security guards bodyguards. Is that Is that normal?

Speaker 1

18:32

Yeah, so that is not normal. But it is becoming more normal and it is becoming more normal specifically for groups of LGBTQI plus, Indians, feminists who are very identified with the progressive causes because the Boston arrows vision of the word is violent, and it is violent against this minority. So more and more these people are receiving threats and you know, they start on social media, but then you know, they can get attacked on the street. So they really need a lot of bodyguards. Now, they really need to be protected. And the same happened to Lulu which was a big loss because Lulu will is a popular leader. He likes being amongst people, but he has needed to use protection and even like an NT NT bullet kind of vest. He couldn't do like open air events, out of fear that there would be violence against him. This of course, damages the entire Yeah, everyone loses the entire elections, everyone loses. And, and it's not normal. So this, this electoral campaign is not normal for a democracy. If I may, I was I was thinking about this. So if I've also noticed that even one of the aspects that is important to know is that, apart from being violent in his discourse was another supports gun guns and he supports violence with guns in many ways in a very, very much the same way that Trump does so you have to defend yourself to defend your honor your family, etc, etc, very geared towards men. And he has he has changed the law and has allowed for the guns in the hands of services of civilians, to increase to threefold doing history for years in government. So right now there is three times more guns in people's hands and there is no limit to how many guns people can have. Anyway, so this is a disaster in a country that is already violent.

Caithlin Mercer

20:55

Yeah, that's interesting. Is it in the way that in the US you can kind of draw a line from political funding from the NRA to the politicians who are most outspoken, is there any kind of line to be drawn to Bolsonaro? In terms of campaign funding?

Speaker 1

21:12

Yeah, there is there is campaign funding from from armed groups and there is a from from sorry, from arm manufacturers, but also from groups that profit from that because it's a whole industry. So right now, there is like shooting shooting ring shooting rings, they're

Caithlin Mercer

21:32

shooting ranges,

Speaker 1

21:34

shooting ranges, yes. They're being open all over the country. And basically, these are like these are like the barber shops, but for people who have guns, right, this is their people where, you know, many men hang out and it supports a kind of machismo violence. Identity and these are being like opening are opening all over Brazil and so and they're profiting from this new you know, this new found a prisoner man with the macho and can can have a gun, but what I was saying is like if abortion it is the shoots, if a pro Bolsonaro person is very angry, and shorts are pitches, a person who dies, nobody wins. Bolsonaro doesn't win because he's, you know, heavily, heavily affected by the vision that he's campaigned as violence. No, of course. I mean, because Because Lula's people get afraid the only the only ones who win are the people who sold the guns. Yeah.

Caithlin Mercer

22:38

Before we all start getting too depressed. Let me give you something else to be depressed about. Another another feature of this campaign cycle, arguably all campaign cycles everywhere now has been misinformation. And can you tell us some of the key misinformation tactics that you've tracked in this election cycle?

Speaker 1

23:03

So before we get to the press, I'm gonna tell you the what is happening yesterday so that all of us can have a laugh.

Caithlin Mercer

23:11

Some comedic relief.

Speaker 1

23:12

Yeah, absolutely. Because there is that right and they use comedy as well. So so in the in the, in the preview in the last month, Bolsonaro's campaign has associated Lula with the devil. And there has been rumors that he has a pact with the devil. And yesterday Lula put out a fact checking which was absolutely hilarious and said Lula does not believe in the devil, Lula believes in God and then it said Lula has never spoken with the devil, Lula does not have a pact with the devil. And then the final one is like Lula's main proposal is to regain the economy and eliminate hunger because, you know, it feels like they wanted to say something serious since somebody's really involved. But then it gets worse because then a lot of Lula supporters, I don't know how it started, but some people who are very close to his campaign started spreading a video of Bolsonaro in a masonry. Either way, sorry, tempo, right and this is a real video but then they started showing this and the whole thing blew out of proportion. And now everybody's talking about who actually has a pact with the devil is it Lulu? Because Bolsonaro is close to the amazing results. This is what we're discussing right now. I'm giving it I'm giving it some time before you know actually that cover covering misinformation right now because I think right now but it's just you know, completely confused. So I'm gonna give it

Caithlin Mercer

25:03

I mean, it's disturbing because there's so many very important things that Brazilians need to be discussing, like the the impact of these election results for climate change and the impact to the economy and the cost of living grazers. And people are running around talking about who's who's got a pact with the devil. It's,

Speaker 1

25:24

that's that's something there is. No it's crazy and it's great. I mean, for us journalists are observing a cultural phenomenon, which is which stems from the, you know, the social media and yen of the monopole early on debate by the mainstream media. It's, it's fascinating to see because actually people are super interested in reading these kinds of things, then they want to discuss these kinds of things they want to discuss is amazing or not, and on the other hand, some of these other issues are harder to communicate. Because campaigns, they track everything that works on everything that don't work. I mean, Lulu has has a very interesting, very good plan government plan that has put out as published and he says, he's gonna go back to protecting the Amazon. While it was wasn't government, they've managed to reduce deforestation a lot. He has also promised to us to inaugurate a minister of Indian Indian communities in your nation for the first time in the history of Brazil. We do have a huge community of indigenous peoples who many of some of which haven't been in contacted I mean, this is a cultural regions that is huge present has never had an indigenous ministry. But I guess it's don't fly. So I mean, it's of course, the campaign should be an Australian too. That's why they put like the economist item, but that's where the debate is happening, how the debate is happening. So I think there is a lot of

Unknown Speaker

27:04

there is a there is a

Speaker 1

27:08

there is the fact that there is how to say there is statement of facts people want people are interested in this kind of things. This is one one fact and campaigns go after what people are interested in discussing. There's another fact algorithm and social media support this kind of thing. They promote this kind of bullshit. Sorry about the language debates, right? So they ferment and they they make them they make them larger, they make them reach more and more people engage. So in so the infrastructure that we have in which the public discourse is happening, support these kinds of debates, and this is a huge problem.

Caithlin Mercer

27:50

Yeah. Do you think? Do you think the average Brazilian is aware of sort of the rest of the world watching very anxiously about climate change? Do you think they're aware of how important these results are to the climate crisis? Or do you think they've got other things to worry about? Like pacts with the devil?

Speaker 1

28:15

I think they have other things to worry about. And it's not the pact with the devil. And I don't think Brazilians know that the rest of the world is watching. I think sometimes it's on the news. So sometimes, you know, when when Bolsonaro went to the bar, you're the queen. It was on the news. And then there was you know, the fact that it was a huge embarrassment was communicated a bit, but Brazil is very similar to the US as well in this sense, because Brazil is very big. Brazilians are very insular. They're very internally focused. And our media is like that as well. I mean, the amount of coverage of the word outside of Brazil is very small and a huge amount on politics and social issues, but what I think they're mostly concerned about and this is interesting when we debate social media, people don't people are really interested about their kids going to school and eating and because of the huge economic crisis that is happening, oh, everybody's really interested in the inflation and are they going to get jobs? And it's, this is what they are interested in. This is what is their daily concerns. On one side. On the other side, Brazilians he has been shown again and again and again, are very conservatives and they are fretting a lot about this new waves of cultural shift in which the traditional family is you know, evaporating. You know, there is different kinds of sexualities being expressed. There is a huge shift in the, in the traditional, hierarchical, you know, social classes. system, there's much more black people ascending to middle class, so they get resilience. I might have been in touch he says, I'm very traditional. I think we're always a society, very traditional, scared of change. And this change is happening. It's not going to go back. So there is a lot of fear and what I think is with the hatred, this is what Bozena does, very smartly capturing the fear of change. I want to

Caithlin Mercer

30:36

invite people to put questions for Natalia into the q&a box and to our fellows downstairs to feel free to put questions into WhatsApp. So if you see me looking away, that's what I'm looking at your questions. But Natalia, we do have a question. Here for you from an anonymous attendee, who says, Could you please expand on religious disinformation especially in the evangelical community?

Speaker 1

31:02

Now that's a great question is um, I am gonna ask this question then there's something because I want to say something positive as well. Good. So basically, the evangelical churches have spread in Brazil over the last 20 years, a lot. And they started basically just gathering a lot of a lot of members by being very outspoken about material game be very outspoken about it is okay for you to earn money, your

Caithlin Mercer

31:39

prosperity gospel,

Speaker 1

31:41

the prosperity gospel. And, and and not only that, you know, in a in a state that is in a in a nation that is this huge, which a state that is very still very deficient. They provided community they provided care for people by the summer, hope and summer people could go to really I mean, if you go to the farmers, there's nothing to do you can you know, go to the bar, go to the church. Basically. So they provide the community and they told people it's okay to watch, you know, gain and etc. So it was you know, it's not, he was also fun, there is a lot of prayer. There's a lot of, you know, rituals that happen there. But the problem so they started gaining a lot of a lot of money, a lot of power. And about 15 years ago, there was this one church, universal kingdom of God is present in the UK as well. Its leader decided it's time for us to gain political power. So he founded the party. He started putting his his pastors and bishops up for election. And now we have so many pastors in Bishop we have like a, like an evangelical caucus in Congress and they are very powerful and they have allied themselves with Bolsonaro from the beginning. Bolsonaro is married to an evangelical woman who is x she's, she's a huge believer. She's kind of a priestess as well, but she she doesn't, but she speaks like one. And they are all of them have decided to support Costanera. So the way they're supporting Bolsonaro is first of all, so we've been we actually saw publica we not only monitor the evangelical kind of WhatsApp groups, but we also go to churches quite a lot. You know to see what is being talked about. We've published we've registered and published many cases of you know, electoral crime in which there is actually you know, Pastor saying you should vote for this or that, but mainly what they do is they demonize, and I mean, demonize really they demonize whatever is lefty and they say that whatever's left is actually communism. And of course, oh, and then there is the whole thing about the pact with the devil which is, you know, crazy but also one huge misinformation spread right in beginning of the elections was that Lula was going to persecute Christians and close the churches which is complete. Bullshit. I'm sorry about

Caithlin Mercer

34:25

that. Please feel free to use any word you like.

Speaker 1

34:27

Okay, because because he was a governor, he was president for two mandates the most I mean, these people are Democrats, they're not gonna close anything. They're gonna oppose the government if they win, but, but yeah, this really caused a huge fear. So again, it's using the fear in a moment of economic crisis and cultural shift that is making everybody insecure to you know, gather support for Bolsonaro

Caithlin Mercer

35:00

I want to go live to the room downstairs and ask later from Zambia. Do you want to ask your question? Yes. Thank you. Can you hear me? We can hear you.

Speaker 2

35:15

So you mentioned that there's a lot of news and a lot of journalists I've been making and I wanted to find out what you're doing to ensure that journalists from your publications are protected from the violence that's going on. And then secondly, I also want to know because you mentioned that Brazil never experienced such violence until 2018. What's wrong I didn't explain to restore the peace that existed before 2018. You get that?

Speaker 1

35:46

Yes, I did. I think I did. So it's a how we're protecting our people and how journalists are acting to restore peace. Yeah,

Caithlin Mercer

35:54

great questions. Thank you.

Speaker 1

35:55

Very good question. So the first question is, okay, so we, back in 2018. We were. It was the first time my team was attacked. They were attacked online. There was a there was a Daxing campaign, some Bolsonaro supporters prepared a dossier. And they use the social media of all of my team to say that, you know, were communists were supported by George Soros, we were part of this international conspiracy that wants to curtail freedoms or you know, all the same stories that are being spread in the USA and I'm sure in the UK as well. When that happened, it affected the mental health of my team enormously. And I think back then, that I wasn't I don't think I was good enough in leading the team to get past this. What so what we did back then is we sat down with everybody and we we started having protocols about exposure on social media, personal accounts, and and in professional accounts, we started having protocols about how do you approach people to ask for comments because we were starting to ask for comments and they would Dox us they would just you know expose, you know the request. So we needed to create a neutral account or not personal account. So we did all of that. We did training of digital security to with our people. And then during the pandemic we started having a psycho psychoanalyst come and have a round table to discuss, you know, the mental stress everybody was feeling. These things have been tried again and again and again in different newsrooms. They have you know, variable, you know, results some people like it enjoyed and take, use, make use of it. Some people you know, don't want it, some people are more open, some people are not. But in general, I can say that my people are much more conscious about the risks and they are much more cautious on on social media. We've also we've written and published the guide of security for field reporting, because we do a lot of reporting the Amazon and as seen with a very sad case of Don Phillips, it's more and more dangerous should be there. So we now have much more rigid protocols. We have not had any serious attack on our people. I want to

Caithlin Mercer

38:35

while you're while you're speaking about that, I just want to bring up the report that you recently did for the Nieman fellowship, where you said community leaders when trying to talk about environmental damage are discredited based on how they talk the color of their skin or their culture. What do you think needs to change in Brazilian newsrooms to get these voices heard in the mainstream media?

Speaker 1

39:02

So these so this is a this is a historical problem. And I have to say this has gotten much better with persona because the fact is, okay, so as I said publica was built on the premise we are an investigate, I didn't even talk about it talk about the public as an investigative agency. It's our primary focus is human rights issues because Brazil is a very unequal society in many aspects. But because we have always covered human rights violations, our sources have always been sources on the ground. Brazil doesn't have a very strong state specially in like more, you know, remote areas such as the Amazon so for us the good investigative reporting, we have to listen to social leaders and they are the people know what's happening on the ground. Meanwhile, you know, mainstream media which are made mostly based in some follower, you know, the richest parts of the country, they tended to listen much more this you tend actually to listen too much more to official voice so government somewhere, police somewhere and these people are the people who are not necessarily they don't know, they don't know what's going on, but they're also allied with the with the, you know, the economic forces that quite often are trying to, you know, are committing violence against this these people. The reason they didn't believe in the social leaders is because of prejudice because of class prejudice, because it's people don't speak properly you know, proper proper, you know, grammatically correct Portuguese because these people are darker because these people are indigenous because of this people. You know, they are not well read, they must not know what they were they think so that article that I wrote about the new report was actually saying that this is not just the case of presumed kind of the international media and it has been so forever not only in Brazil, but Latin America. The way we've been, the way our social movements have been portrayed is appalling. I remember how Evo Morales was ridiculed when he went to meet the king of Spain because he was wearing traditional vests from the indigenous communities. There is still this colonial vision of a world in which these people are, you know, backwards, underdeveloped, and one day they will develop they will get to our level and these reflects in the way that we that these issues are being covered. But if we're talking about the future of humanity with the preservation of the largest forest in the world, which is in Brazil, you have to respect the ones who live there and the ones who know what's going on there and the ones who have fought their entire lives to preserve it. You know, when you talk, you know, there is this person in their community leader, the only thing they want is to stay there and you know, preserve the forest around and then this person is never portrayed in the same way that I don't know. And industrially, somebody who is well read and went to Harvard or Oxford, that wears white male, that person is who is listened to much more,

Caithlin Mercer

42:15

right so when you say Bolsonaro has helped bring those voices forward a bit more. Say a little bit more about that.

Speaker 1

42:24

It's not both. And this comes to the other to the question that was asked before what happened to the media. So the media was not only attacked constantly in Bolsonaro government but the media is also monitoring the whole dismantling that is happening in the safeguards of our of our democracy. So there were dozens of councils say boards that oh, that's overviewed different policies, they were all disbanded. This was the way this service was organized civil society would have some say in the government. The government has been filled with military officers. So there's over 6000 military officers working government, the reasonable so narrow does that because he doesn't want confrontation. He wants people who follow his orders. And of course, this isn't a democratic, that's being persecution of public servants in especially in the in the ins and institutes and by our turkeys, they protect the environment and Indians. So we published a story about a there was a an Excel table in which each one of the directors of Inc of INCRA know of FUNAI of the indigenous National Foundation and on the side of the name of the directory was saying if he was pro or against Bolsonaro, and the ones that were against Bolsonaro. Sometimes he was written substitute him for a military guy. So this is this is clear, you know, persecution of people who don't think like Bolsonaro so we journalists have been reporting on this and seeing how the the, of course he has attacked the Supreme Court. He's one of his main players, if he gets reelection is that he's going to increase the Supreme Court and then he's going to be able to put more ministers there's, you know, basically an alter dictatorship. Light Hello dictatorship. Anyway, so but we've been reporting on this and we've been seeing what's happening in the country and the majority of the media in Brazil has been denouncing this and kind of have a very critical stance on the government and become very active. Sometimes very activist sometimes, you know, it's not bias, but it's once it's taking a stance being being openly critical of what is happening. These, I think, has been much more prominent than an attempt to heal the country and bring peace. And I understand that bringing peace could be the work of journalists, but it is I don't think this is the moment to do that because we are under severe threat. And I think right now and I mean a lot we're debating news every day. The US has debated it the same. Other countries have debated it. Journalism is one of the you know, one of the walls that can protect democracy and if he doesn't take a stance, in this moment of peril, it will be just much more easy for you know, for democracy today. This is actually what Steve Levitsky the, the the author of How democracies die, definitive stance. So I think more than trying to bring this right now we need to investigate and expose and try to try to show the population that what is happening is not normal and that our democracy is eroding and we're under a huge

Caithlin Mercer

46:06

threat right? So perhaps not a proactive piece. Keeping role, but at least a proactive anti violence role.

Speaker 1

46:18

Well, yeah, I mean, the media is not promoting violence at all. But But I mean, I don't I haven't seen any calls for there is the now there is criticism of violence, but there is no like, okay, let's become, we all need to talk I think. I think this has to be done soon. But but it's very high because there is one side as we've shown with data, there is one side that has been violent. So the media is focusing on denouncing that.

Caithlin Mercer

46:55

I mean, my mind immediately goes to Rwanda and the radio stations when when you hear about conditions like this tinderbox, but if let me not go off on a tangent because there are so many questions for you here. So let's do a little rapid fire. Irene Venini asks, Have the actions undertaken by the TSE superior Electoral Court had a positive impact on the election?

Speaker 1

47:25

Well, I think again, what happens is Bolsonaro has such a strong grasp of social media and manipulation of political discourse that he has managed to put the Electoral Court on guard and in defense, so for a year now, he has been saying that they're thieves corrupt and that no not nothing that you know that they're actually trying to just guarantee that Lula will win which is a complete fabrication. And this has caught on to his supporters. Bait not only that, but he has committed a series of electoral crimes and serious in the whole campaign showing that he doesn't follow the rules. And the reason he does that is show undermine the Electoral Court. So because then when the Electoral Court acts against him, he can say he's been persecuted their bias they want to do literally so this has put them in a position that is extremely dangerous. They have been tough. They have been probably much more tough than would be reasonable. There were some events, one specifically in which a group of businessmen were discussing how they believe it would be better if there was a coup by the military, instead of Lula winning, which is terrible, but there wasn't really a plan going on. It was just people saying these kinds of things. These people have political and financial power and they were funding protests. They were helping these narratives spread in society. He, the president of the Electoral Court, ordered that their houses be searched, which is you know, abusive. It is it is a step too far. However, in the in the, in the current moment with a president that is, again and again, attacking the court and saying that he's going to call the army for a coup. Clearly he's saying this I think again, it's a reaction that is, can be justified. The problem is that the violent speech or Bolsonaro has distorted the entire country. It's not only the people on the street is the courts is the press is the police is the military here has managed to shift everything. Nothing is normal at the moment, courts are behaving in defense and attack mode. The media is being much more proactive and activists that he would like to be the police are debating whether or not they should you know, it's it's in complete disarray. And he is he is absolutely the reason why.

Caithlin Mercer

50:36

And there's there's a kind of perverse optimism in that, isn't that. I mean, there's a message here from struggle in Greece saying, Thank you for reminding me the importance of journalism at a time like this. And, and I think that that there's there's something to be said that when when institutions actually do what they were designed to do and when journalists do what they're designed to do, there's something hopeful about that.

Speaker 1

51:04

I do think I do think that I've I've definitely regained my my faith in journalism in the mainstream media and in the big corporations of Brazil who have actually stood up against this corrupt force into it in the corruption the meaning that goes on is corrupting the entire society. But I said I wanted to say something positive, and I'm going to so what we've seen is if you look at Lula and his political career, he is the most relevant political leader Brazil has had in a century. And it's quite impressive. So this man was accused of corruption and he was jailed for a year just two years ago. It turned out that the whole investigation was biased. The judge was considered biased and not only he was biased, then he went on to become minister of the Bolsonaro government. And the entire investigation was thrown out against Lula specifically two years later, he is not only running for elections, he is leading the polls. So this is a man who was in jail two years ago suffering any justice according to our court system, which I believe he wasn't just me arrest so justice was done. And now he's running for N he's ahead. This is the statue statue of this political figure. That basically is a popular figure who really wants to poor people reserved to get in a better you know, economical position in Brazil to be a better voice. In the world. So what's happened? It's, it's, it's a it's something to be applauded, and something should give us hope. Even when we see terrible, you know, terrible injustice happening. Things can shift and they can shift very quickly. And then at the same time in these elections, even with the Bolsonaro, electing a lot of governors. We did have a lot of congressmen and congresswomen that had historical wins. So for the first time, we're going to have an an indigenous woman in Congress, which has never happened. We had about five or six individuals who were elected for various positions all over Brazil. We have two trend trends, candidates who are going to be in the parliament as well for the first time. So there is you know, there is also a lot of really progressive people who were elected. It means the polarization is happening, but both sides I mean, there is also a push for the progressive side to be heard.

Caithlin Mercer

53:57

There's a redemption arc potentially redemption arc for Brazil.

Speaker 1

54:02

I don't I'm not sure there's going to be really I think, I mean, in the end, I mean, either we fall into an autocracy and you know, all these people were expelled or go to live, you know, in the UK, or there needs to be conversation there's a part of society who is very excited about progressive, you know, stances and, you know, the the cultural revolution that is happening and there is a part that doesn't want to see it so they both going to be in Parliament.

Caithlin Mercer

54:31

rapidfire going back into the room to ask Olga from Ukraine for her question.

Caithlin Mercer

54:37

Oh. We can't hear you. I think you might be on mute. theaker

Unknown Speaker

54:48

Can you hear me now? Yes.

Caithlin Mercer

54:51

Hi, Natalia. Thank

Speaker 3

54:52

you so much for your very interesting talk. And my question is, what's the Russia's war on Ukraine and issue during the election campaign, Brazil and also did you observe any Russian disinformation in Brazil in the campaign in general?

Speaker 1

55:10

Thank you so much. For your question, and I'm extremely sorry about what's happening in your country. It wasn't a big issue. Both both Bolsonaro and Lulu have been critical both sides Bolsonaro has has in a historical shift, not our government has not condemned Russia's Russia's war, which is a historical shift because Brazil has always been a nonbelligerent and has always supported peace in its international approach in our foreign ministry, so it hasn't he hasn't been an import as I told you, Brazil is very inward looking. There doesn't seem to this doesn't seem to affect the Brazilian debate at all. But it affects how the Americans are seeing it and that I know but that's because the Americans always you know, everything is always about putting. So I was interviewing. I was interviewing very recently Jamie Raskin who is one of the congressmen who were doing the January 6, investigation and the reason I went to interview him is because I have we're supposed to have established several times, several times between the people who spread the misinformation about fraud in the American elections and the people who are spreading information about fraud in Brazilian elections. And they communicate they they have needs to be attached. There is a an alliance there. And one of the views that I have and some academics some scholars have us have is that the US is the largest larger exporter of miscommunicate. of misinformation about electoral fraud, and they all say no, no, no, this is all poaching and I disagree. I think Putin may have his agenda, but no misinformation would spread without American Silicon Valley companies which do not do enough and profit from his information. So I think they're as much of blame as putting for hold.

Caithlin Mercer

57:19

Oh, okay. We're rapidly running out of time. And there are so many questions and I'm trying to choose what's the most important questions to ask you before we go. I really want to hear why you started agency or pubblica because you hinted to me earlier that there was a good story there that needed to be told. So can we try and squeeze in? Why why did you start at zero publica and the question that I was gonna ask from Yossi was what happens if Bolsonaro wins?

Unknown Speaker

57:57

So we're gonna end on a sad note.

Caithlin Mercer

57:59

Start with both one start with the first one.

Speaker 1

58:03

Okay, that's a good thing. So both on our wins, so Bolsonaro has already his program is not very clear, but we we all know what he's going to do. He has said that he wants to, he wants to put the Supreme Court in its place. Basically, he wants to make it larger so he can elect the majority of the judges. So we're going to have a supreme court basically bows to his wills. He has he wants to privatize most of the national companies. He wants to establish you know, reestablish, you know, religion education in Brazil and should militarize the school. He wants to allow people to have guns. He has no regard for for, you know, public services. So he's not a defender of the public health system. What I think we can see is, like a very Venezuela type of decay very rapidly, Venezuela, or you can compare it to Nicaragua. Basically, he's gonna he already has control or chi, some control but he is going to grow he has control of the Supreme Court. He has control of the parliament we have which has purchased by by sending, but just giving them a lot of money, billions and billions and billions of public funding. If he controls the Supreme Court is going to be free to also you know, tell the the army what to do and then he wants to see if the basically we want to concentrate much more power in his hands. And with that, we can you know, silence the media, control the you know, the civil society, he can cut funding from abroad, which we have also seen in also in El Salvador. We've seen this in Nicaragua. We've seen this in also in in Russia, and Ukraine, I guess. So So basically, he wants to establish a control over the country is going to be an autocracy. I guess I don't know how long this is going to take is going to attack journalists and we're going to see people fleeing the country. If he wins, we're in a very bad position to defend our democracy. There is some people who believe that our democracy has shown to be strong. I don't see that way. I think Brazil is big and richer than most countries in Latin America. We've resisted as much as we could. But I also know that we are much worse than we were four years ago and four years from now we're gonna be worse even now on a good note, that is a public opinion. The we know what we have to do. Our role is to defend human rights issue human rights in Brazil is to cover violence against women minorities, is to cover corruption by governments is used to cover corruption in the judiciary, it is to denounce every attempt to demolish our democracy. So we're gonna have a lot of work. I should say publica was founded 11 years ago. And it was founded in an interesting way, because I was invited by Julian Assange to be the person who would coordinate the publication of the American Embassy papers in Brazil. Okay. He, he got me through I, I was, I had lived in the UK, I went to Goldsmith's college. I took a Masters there in 2006. And when I was there, I met Gary McFadden, who is the founder of the Center for Investigative Journalism. Right. Gavin was a very good friend of mine. I he when when Julian Assange asked him if he knew somebody from the south if he knew somebody from Brazil, who was you know, a professional who could lead and advise him on who to partner up with in Brazil, and how to deal with documents. I was called and I traveled to, you know, the frontlight club. I was you know,

Speaker 1

01:02:03

how cloak and dagger. Yeah, exactly what the whole because Janelle, thank you very much like that. So I helped them devise the strategy and publish the documents in Brazil. While I was doing this, I became very famous because I had, you know, the largest coop in decades in my pocket and so everybody reached out to me and at that moment, I decided with my my my companion with my partner Medina morale with a more senior journalist than me, we decided to use the opportunity of the visibility that I was getting to found an organization that is a bit that it was before ProPublica was founded. But this the wasn't even the one. The bureau had already been found in in Gavin was the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. It had already been founded. So we kind of had that as a reference and we decided to start an organization that would do investigative journalists, but would focus on human rights violations because of the reasons I already told you. No, it was a success. We had no idea it was going to be a success. I thought it was going to die in six months and here we are 11 years.

Caithlin Mercer

01:03:19

And the moral of the story is make friends with lots of people when you're at university because you never know when you might end up defending democracy as a result.

Speaker 1

01:03:28

Absolutely true. I can't. When I came back from gold's knees, I was depressed. I was like, Oh, that did not serve me in any way and it did change didn't change my story, but it also changed journalism in Brazil, because since we founded we have helped many dozens of other organizations to to start in Brazil.

Caithlin Mercer

01:03:50

Thank you Natalia. So much for your time. today. It's been fascinating. I've got about 16,000 more questions for you. I'm so sorry. To those of you whose questions I didn't get to really fantastic questions. Please join us next week. metalli. Our new director will be interviewing John Allan Namu from Kenya about the emotional impact of investigative journalism. John had to leave his home with his family after his work on the Panama Papers revealed some less than complimentary information about Kenyatta and he's just got fascinating insights to share. Natalia, come back often come and visit us will come and visit you will be thinking of you and just keep up the fantastic work you're doing.

Speaker 1

01:04:39

Thank you so much. Please. Please think of Brazil pray for review and hope that there's no devil in our dispute in any way that no not. Not any of the sizes of the pact with the devil. Let's see.

Caithlin Mercer

01:04:56

That's the perfect note to end. Go Well, everyone and we'll see you next week. Ciao.

00:0000:00