Hello, radical massage therapist, and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. I'm your host, Krista, registered massage therapist and clinic owner in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Lucky for you. I am not the radical massage therapist, but you are. You want to learn more about the benefits of a massage career, such as freedom, flexibility, financial success and fun outside of your career. Of course, I hope these episodes will inspire you to create a really awesome life around a sustainable massage career. My guest today is Joanna Sapir. Joanna is a business strategist for holistic practitioners. Joanna has a special gift for helping wellness practitioners set up repeatable systems and processes that not only serve clients powerfully, but also create steady income and cash flow. With over 20 years of experience in teaching and training, from the classroom to the gym floor and now working with wellness practices globally, Joanna is here to help us understand the crucial difference between marketing and sales for building a sustainable massage therapy practice, we'll explore how to attract the right fit clients and create a business that offers freedom, flexibility and the opportunity to live life on your own terms. Let's dive in. Well. Joanna, welcome back to the radical massage therapist podcast. It's great to be here, Krista, what's been, what's been the biggest change for you since the last time we chatted a few years ago? Do you have any changes? Yes,
actually, quite recently, but that was several years ago, so there's probably been lots of changes. But in September of this year, we're in 2024 I moved to Mexico. Amazing.
That's amazing. Excellent. What brought that change on?
I became, let's see, I turned 50 years old. I became an empty nester. I run this online business. I was a renter. It was like I could go anywhere I wanted to. So this is where I decided to to land for now anyway. Excellent,
good. I mean, one of the themes of the podcast is, like, freedom, flexibility. I love when people just take jumps like that, when they you know, might have been thinking about it for a while, or maybe you weren't. Maybe it was just a spontaneous thing. I was yeah, we're okay and And was there any, like, change, like, fear, discomfort. Was there? Like, oh, I'm not so sure. How did you come to that, that decision, I just like to to know and inspire others with, with your your jump, yeah.
I mean, of course, I had all kinds of concerns and like, how's this gonna go? I have made big jumps like this in my life before, I seem to be the kind of person who who does that. And I don't know if I can really explain it, I just sort of decide, like, Hmm, I think that's something I want to do. And I start thinking about it, and then I go, Okay, here we go. So, I mean, it was actually just mostly a logistical challenge, like I said, Of course, I, I mean, I'm starting a whole new life here, and I didn't know anybody showing up so, and it's in a whole other language, and so there's all of that. So I'd say, still every day, and I think that that's probably part of why I really wanted to do it. Was looking for some radical change of some sort, just to kind of, you know, give, give life a little twist. I was ready for that.
Yeah, I think that's awesome. And you're continuing to work online, so at least you have that consistency, something that is familiar, that kind of gets you in a routine during the day. Anyway,
yeah, it. The only downside to that is that it keeps me in English for a lot of the day.
Yeah. Okay. And how is your Spanish coming along decently?
I mean, I had a decent amount of Spanish coming and so, I mean, when I came, so it's, you know, I get to use it Excellent,
great. Well, for today's episode, I'm so excited to chat with you, because I do love this particular topic, I love learning about it and absorbing it and then trying to apply it in my own practice and in social media. So we're gonna talk about the difference between marketing and sales, and how massage therapists, or any body workers listening, can get great fit clients. Is there anywhere you want to start? Or do you want me to just read off some some questions?
Why don't Sure? I mean, we can start anywhere. You know, I'm a talker,
okay? I love it. I love it. And you're very, you know, you're very good at at this podcasting business, so it's wonderful. I mean, so right off the bat, like, how can, how can massage therapists identify their ideal clients and and why is that crucial to their practice?
Yeah, well, I'm sure that you, I'm sure that you've experienced this, and you know this. But we start our businesses, we start any kind of wellness business. Like I can help people, and I just want to help people, and we come in with that energy of just wanting to help people. Never would we think like I'm only going to help certain people. And in fact, sometimes that can feel kind of wrong. But on the business side of things, the more honed in you can get on who really you help the best and enjoy working with the best, the stronger your business is going to be, and the happier you'll be as a practitioner. So I actually don't think that somebody just starting out can do this. I don't think that people just starting out should, you know, pick their ideal clients because they don't have the experience yet. You You gotta, you gotta open up in the beginning and work with a variety of people. But after you've had enough experience, you can start looking at, okay, who have been I mean, my criteria are the overlap of who have I loved working with and who has gotten the best results from my services. So it's like a Venn diagram, and you look at that, and it's pretty easy for a practitioner to kind of go through their memory, or go through their you know, files, and just go, who have been my favorite people. And then I usually advise folks, I'm getting into the how here, not just the why, but I'll get into the why in a second. I usually advise people to also do the other side, which is, who have been the most challenging, who have been, honestly, the worst clients, who have been the most challenging, the hardest to deal with, who I really like. Do not want to repeat that again and to do the same thing on both of those, which is, what are the qualities that made those favorite clients so great? What were their qualities. Just list them, all of them, all the people, and then same for the ones that were the most challenging clients. And you get a really clear picture of who your people are. And interestingly, the way I just described it, you may not have, you know, a lot of business people like me will talk about a niche, and I'm not really talking about niche here. You may see a very clear niche. It may be like that, all your favorite clients have a particular, you know issue. It might be like, I'm just really good with hips and knees, or I'm just really good with women in perimenopause. Like, you might see patterns like that, and you might not. It might be really about their attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, and that's fine, too, but the reason you want to hone in on that is because, first of all, you will make more money when you're very clear on who your people are, and you seek to call them in, and you have systems to kindly refer others elsewhere, and you'll feel so much more fulfilled as a practitioner. I mean, one of the most common complaints I hear from body workers is people who come in Well, first of all, people who drop off, right? They start the work and then don't complete it, and so they don't see the results. People who come in sporadically, like, always with the same thing, because they're not doing the, you know, the homework, or coming in consistently as needed, and folks who come in and just want to, you know, tell the practitioner what to do, like, right? All of these things make when we allow that into our space like we feel like we don't necessarily understand, like, this is them, and we think, like, gosh, I mean, this is just how I am as a practitioner, or this is just how business is. And I want to note that it doesn't have to be how business is. You can work exclusively with those people that you love working with and that see the best results from your services, and that just that just makes like work even more fulfilling when everyone you're working with is getting great results, you know, yeah,
and they're just bringing more energy into the space, instead of draining you exactly. And, and I love, there's a couple pieces that I love that you're we're not necessarily niching into a particular category, like, category of like, of treatment that you only hone in on shoulder and and then I'm curious how we do, sort of break down, how we we do find those, those individuals that that work back We work best with, and then I feel like you're also giving permission. I feel, as healthcare providers, the ethics that we might feel. It might feel like we need to say yes to everybody, but you did mention that we can reliably refer to somebody else, and that is still part of our duty of care, especially if we don't feel like we're going to provide the best treatment, whether it comes from a place of just like a personality clash or a values difference, it does affect how we we treat our clients. So. You are doing them a service by referring out and and doing your best to see the ones that that do resonate with you, and you're like you said, you're getting the best results. So how, how are we now finding these clients?
Well, I think that the you, you kind of intro the show talking about the topic of marketing and sales and the difference. And so this is a good time to kind of bring that in. You know, we get into business without business training, without business education, not knowing what we're doing, right? We know that we can provide the service, but not necessarily any of the rest. And so this is a, this is a, you know, a misunderstanding. I would say that most people that come into business early on, and by the way, you know, we might have talked about this years ago when I was on the show, but my own experiences, I started a strength and conditioning gym with absolutely no experience in business whatsoever. And so I was right along there. I mean, that's what we do, right? And it's like, You quickly learn, like, oh, there's actually, I have to learn how to do business, to do business well. And so most of us think that marketing and sales, like we lump it together, as if it's the same thing. And in fact, I hear all the time, especially from, well, I was gonna say newer practitioners. But really, anybody who's kind of struggling in business, struggling, I would say, to get clients. Anyone who's struggling to get clients, will say, I need to do marketing. I need to learn how to do more marketing. And so it's interesting, because when I when I first started this business. So I had the strength and conditioning gym for almost 10 years. I built it to be sellable. And so, you know, I learned all this stuff I needed to learn. Built it to be sellable and sold it. And then I started this business coaching other wellness practitioners in business strategy. And people were coming to me, and that's what they would always say, is I need help marketing. I need help marketing to get clients. And so I would do a business assessment, right? I do, I do, like, a full assessment of all the different departments of the business to see what's there and what's not, and you know what, what gaps there are, and so on. And what I saw was that it really wasn't actually a marketing problem for most people. Now that's not to say it's not for everyone we and we'll talk about that, but plenty of people do get leads. And so even you know, as a local business, if you have a Google business profile set up, etc, like, and you show up in a Google search locally, like, you may get people call you or referrals, right? And so I might hear from a practitioner who would get you know leads, people reaching out referrals, through or through or online, but they had no process to actually like, step by step, take that lead, determine whether they were A fit right, and then enroll them in services. And that is not marketing, that's sales, that's a sales process. And so understanding the difference between marketing and sales is really, really key to your business, because you may think that you need to do more marketing because you want more clients, and in fact, it may be the sales process that you're missing. And I would say that, I would say that 99.9% of practitioners are missing a sales process unless they have really specifically learned one from somebody like me. I mean, otherwise people are just winging it, you know, I ask folks all the time like, So, how does somebody become a client? Well, you know, I just talk to them and book a session, or they or there's a button on my website, or whatever. Like, people don't have a sales process unless they've unless they've learned that. So where this just to point out, like, where the rub is is, if you're a practitioner and you think I need to do more marketing and not understanding that, okay, you need a sales process for that marketing to work. You know, there's folks who, like enroll in, or, you know, social media marketing programs or whatever, or or spend, you know, spend a lot of energy doing stuff to get visibility and get people coming to them that doesn't pay off because they don't actually know how to convert that attention and convert those leads into into clients, right? So
are you able to to share some of the elements then that that we we get the client, and maybe not, you know, share your whole recipe. But if there's certain key, key things that that happen as soon as that client hits book, now that we can, we can choose
in the sales process. Yeah, well, so it's interesting, because you're, it sounds like you're operating on the presumption that the book now that so that is, I will just say, I teach a I teach, and I think we may have talked about this before, I teach a whole different form of serving clients. So, um. Um, so the book now, button wouldn't actually apply. So let me just point out that that is a that is a sales process. It's a digital sales process. It's completely hands off. There's no relationship happening, right? A book now, button on your website, that is, that is a sales process. Let's just talk about like the pros and cons of that. The pros are, it doesn't take any of your time for somebody to book a session, right? It just happens. And, you know, no time or energy on your part. Cons, first of all, we don't know, unless you're really doing some major digital tracking, we don't know how many people actually landed on that page and didn't book a session, right? So in digital, digital sales processes like this usually is like a 2% conversion rate, so meaning 2% of the people who land on a page. In general, this is, generally speaking, are gonna, you know, make, make the sale. That's so low, and we don't know who all those other people are. Then there's the issue of anybody can get in and book with you, which means you can't actually choose your clients, which is what we just talked about, like, really, you know, choosing your clients. So, so I teach a completely different process for enrolling people that is absolutely more time and energy. Takes more time and energy. But what to kind of point out, what I teach people to do, is I have, we have, like, a repeatable process. And, you know, I'm going to be talking about what I do, but just this is definitely for anybody hearing like, you can create this for yourself, you know, but what you want is a repeatable process so that you're not actually using that brain energy of what do I say now? Or you're not like winging it right? It's like you actually have very clear outlines and scripts for how these pieces go. And the process I teach, we would call it a consultative sales process. So it's where you are talking to every single person in a conversation and and what comes on the other end of that for me. I mean, the hallmark of my teaching, for anybody that does work with me is that I teach body workers how to create programs and treatment plans for their clients. And like I said, I think we talked about this last time, so it means you're not booking a session, you're actually enrolling somebody in a whole treatment plan. And a lot of a lot of body workers think that they're doing that anyway, but when you're selling it session by session, it's energetically just not the same thing. I mean, I I'm the client of many body workers, and I know it's just not the same thing to be buying a session and paying for that session one at a time, even if you have a plan for me, that's different than if I sit down with you, you give me a consultation, an assessment and consultation and layout, all right, Joanna, here's what I think that you need. I think we need, you know, 12 weeks of coming in once a week, and here's what we're going to do in that time. Here's the plan, you know, do you want to do that? And I say yes, and I'm enrolling in that, right? That's a whole different thing, a whole different level of commitment on both parts, and is amazing. So just to point out, because I teach that, it means the consultation is enrolling somebody in that whole thing. And I'm happy to share any details that you want about how that all goes. Yeah,
no, that's great because, yeah, definitely, I love the, appreciate the the difference between marketing and sales and that it's this. This process is much more front end energetically. It will just take a little bit more time to to find the client that you want to have those conversations and then, and then enrolling and then, but then after that, it sounds like things are just going to, you know, run smoothly, because you now have 12 appointments on your calendar that you know for sure. Are there. So, yeah, so please, yeah, share, share. What's what's next in experts, let's back,
let's back up in the span of things is that the marketing piece just to clarify again for folks, so I highlighted what a sales process is, and I can break that down even further. But sales is when somebody expresses some interest. How, what's your step by step process for enrolling them in your services? Right? And so the marketing piece is how you call those folks in and invite them to even inquire with you. So sure, you do need some kind of marketing process, but like I said, referrals and even a Google profile can take you a long way. You know, you don't necessarily need to be all over social media, and I would say that. So I work with about 50% brick and mortar in person, businesses hands on, businesses like body workers, and 50% online, people who are not body workers, obviously, but some are, you know, still physical, like movement practitioners and so on. And so I just want to say for everyone listening who's doing hands on work, local businesses really have a great advantage when it comes to. That the Google business profile, it means that somebody who's looking for some kind of services that you provide, you will show up in in in their, in their, in their Google search, right? Whereas a business like mine online, I'm not going to show up, you know, in your town, so big advantage there. And can and setting up your Google business profile, well, can absolutely bring you plenty of leads. So you do need some kind of visibility out there, for sure. But then what we want to do is have really clear, really clear invitation. What are you inviting people to? Just putting yourself out there and saying, you know, here's my thing. I call that selling to strangers. You don't want to be selling your things in your marketing. You want to be speaking to your people and calling them in so you want to be speaking to their specific pains and problems and goals and desires. That's what you want to be doing, and then offering an invitation. And so the more clear you are on who your ideal clients are, just like we talked about, the more specifically you can talk to their pains and problems and goals and desires. And so this is just to going way back to just when you ask, like, why is it important to know who your ideal clients are? It's like the attraction. What would we say? Like the level of attraction, kind of like the strength of a magnet, right? This, like, how strong a magnet is this, the more specific you are in who you're talking to, the stronger that magnet is, right? And the more general you're speaking, like, I can help anybody who has this or this, or this, or all these things, the less strong that magnet is. If that makes sense, or it's just more neutral, it's just like, Uh huh, you know, so me, I'm an athlete and I'm a middle aged woman, right? If you're speaking to me as an athlete and or a middle aged woman, or, even better, both of those together, like, I'm, like, very strongly attracted to it, right? Rather than just speaking, like to a general population, because I don't necessarily relate with somebody who's inactive and, you know, has the same aches and pains, and I do, but they're from totally different causes or something, right? So the more you know that's, that's how you're calling folks in. But what we don't want to do is say, buy the session, buy the thing. We want to invite them to in in my sales process, to a conversation, you know? And so you can call that a consultation. You can call that a an assessment. I mean, it is an assessment, how I teach it, and I can go over that, but, but that's what you're doing. And this is free, right? So it's not buy my thing. A lot of people who teach marketing will, will, will talk about it as like asking somebody to marry you on a first date. It's like, why would I buy your thing just from seeing a post or, you know, an ad or something, right it? But an invitation to something free is a whole different energy. It's like, okay, I might look into that, especially if you're talking to me. So there's all kinds of other things your marketing can and should do, which is around educating your ideal clients around what's actually going on with them, why what they've tried in the past hasn't worked, and bringing them, we call it the stages of awareness, bringing them to an awareness of how much your services will help them, right? But that can happen over time, so that's another thing you want to do in your marketing, rather than trying to sell your services, because it's not where you make sales, right? There was something else I was going to say in there, but I missed it. So that invitation is the beginning when they accept your invitation to whatever that kind of initial first step is. That's the beginning of what I would call your sales pipeline. Do you want me to talk about where that goes from there? You got a question? Yeah,
can we just, like, put a pin in that and then also highlight the word assessment that you said earlier, and then just going back to marketing where so we're speaking to the client and what they like, what their what their needs are, so that they can, you know, relate, and then be like, you know, I'm interested in learning more. And then they're, you're inviting them to the next step. When you're also speaking to the client, how beneficial is it, especially when we're trying to find that right client, that right fit that works best with us? How much are you also sharing about you, both potentially, as on a personal and professional level? And then we'll fast forward to the pinned Yeah,
that's a great question, sure. I mean, it's kind of like, definitely, you'll see in people's marketing, sharing about themselves. I don't have, I'm not, I I'm I'm not somebody with formulas. If we're talking about, like, social posts, I'm not somebody with formulas around that. I'll just say, like. I help people, absolutely, with marketing, and I don't believe in any one particular way to do it, but I do believe in a particular strategy talking about yourself. Sure, can be in there. Of course, I personally, you know, there are, there are people who teach all about personal branding, and it's all about like, it's all about you. I'm, I'm not into that myself, personally, I'm into talking about the prospective client, and you establish your authority through showing talking to them about what they need and how you understand their problems. If your own personal story comes in, great. Do you know? I mean, like, here I am. I came on and just said, Well, of course, I have this experience. I started this, you know, this, this strength and conditioning gym with absolutely no experience in business that's relevant. That's absolutely relevant. But I don't need to highlight that over and over and over, if that makes sense. I'll also just say, like, it's really, really common for people in health and wellness to to want to give a bunch of tips and tricks in their marketing, or think that that's actually, like great marketing, and it's not, it's that's not going to do anything to actually help your people. Can
you share why you don't find that it is effective? Because I feel like that is what we're being taught, and we're just, we're dripping like free and we're like free advice and and this is proving that I know what I'm talking about, and I'm giving you a little something that you can use on your own, and then maybe that'll, you know, want you want to work with me like and actually pay for a session? Can you explain why that that doesn't work, or what irks you about it?
Well, it doesn't actually compel people to action. It just doesn't. So I will just say, like, what my my frame, my frame on content writing or content it doesn't have to be writing, it can be video or whatever. But content marketing is, I teach my clients what I call leadership writing, and it's basically about belief shifts. So I don't, I don't mean to get so far in the weeds here, but okay, when I'm working with clients, one of the most important things we do together is develop their framework and your framework. This is like really cool thing to be able to bring up, but it's also hard to explain. But for any of you listening, there's a way that, like you do things that's yours. There are experiences you've had in your life that come into your business that are only yours. There are various trainings, modalities, certifications you have, like whatever combination that's yours. All of that makes you unique as a practitioner, no matter what, we are all individually unique, because we have that and your framework is your perspective on what your ideal clients truly need to reach their goals. And that can have all different kinds of lenses to it, but that's what your framework is. So we develop these frameworks, and these frameworks are big ideas a lot of times, sometimes they're very simple practices, you know, it might be some kind of with bodywork. It might be, you know, maybe you believe in some particular foam rolling technique or something. So that might be in there. But still, even if that's why, even if that's important to you, there's a reason. And so we want to identify those things in our frameworks, like, what is that about to you? Why do you believe that? And those become these big ideas that are that, that are how you provide, the service that you you provide. So it's really empowering to have this our content marketing. We want to be talking about those big ideas because it's educating our perspective clientele, our leads, our audience, around what they actually need to get the results they want. Now, a tip or trick in there every now and then, sure, but here's one of my complaints with I mean, with overall tips and tricks is first of all, if I see some video of you showing me this thing, and is that actually going to get me the real, real results I need? Is it going to address, like, the root cause of whatever's going on with me? You don't even know what that is, right? You don't even know if that's going to help. But like, is that actually going to get me the long term results. No, it's just this little snippet. But by giving the tip or trick and not giving me the whole context of understanding, like, Hey, what is required to, like, really help you is a whole bunch of things, not just this one thing, then I'm like, Okay, let me just do this thing. And then why? Why in the world? I don't see any need for the actual services. But more than that, I don't actually get the results I want. I'm like being it's like being fed candy. Do you know? I mean, like, instead of nutrition kind of thing. So the tips and tricks piece, what it will do is build an audience. But that. Doesn't mean it's an audience that's ever going to buy your services or enroll in your services. Okay,
I love that explanation. I will admit that I see a tip and trick and I do go, ooh, that's fun. I save it to a folder, and then it never I don't, because I'm usually watching something that I'm sitting somewhere and I'm not going to get up and do a foam rolling exercise at the time, you know where I am. And so I never take action necessarily on that step. But I've got it in a folder so that, because it looked like a good tip and I want to do it later, and I just don't get around to it. There's the occasional one I might share with clients, to be honest, that is good. And then I don't have to do a video or whatever. I'm like, I'm going to save this and send that to a client. That's great. But I really love your take on it, because I feel like that is a huge like, that's a lot of what we as massage therapists and body workers are pumping out there right now. And I love how you said, it does build your audience. And on social media, that is the one of the key markers, but at the same time, that's not going to necessarily transfer to a potential client.
It really doesn't like beware the idea of influencer marketing that we think that you need some big audience. I don't have a big social media audience, so many of my clients don't, and are doing very, very well in business. It's totally not required. Yeah,
I love that. And also something that I feel is a big thing for 2025 and I know we talked years ago, and you were already, you know, you were already on this invitation consultation, you know, path, and encouraging us to do that. But I feel like my prediction for 2025, is that we need to implement a consultation process. And I know massage therapists in in that are starting to implement that, even if it's just it is an appointment that they can book a 15 minute consultation. So again, like, I think this is still going to be helpful to give us more of a structured path, but it is now an option that they're providing a consultation appointment, so that then everybody can kind of feel each other out. The client can ask questions, because, as you said, we're so unique as individuals that we have a lot of different modalities. We have a lot of strengths. We come from different health and wellness backgrounds. Potentially, the clients are like, I don't know if like, if you are for me or not, and they're the ones that are actually taking the initiative to ask, ask us if they can have the consultation so, or maybe we get emails and they're not really sure, and it's time and money that in order to find that right fit for you know the client as well. So I feel like this is a trend, and I hope that this will also guide more people down, down that path to to add consultations to their their, you know, their process. So now, where can we go from here? Let's
talk about that. So I just want to acknowledge for everybody listening, I do feel like we've been a little bit all over the place, and we usually are on this podcast back and forth and back and forth again to different places. I'm such I can, I tend to explain things so linearly. So none of this was linear yet, but I will. I will explain the sales process as I teach it anyway. You know all of you listening like, pick and choose what works, but or pick and choose what you want. So first thing I'll note is, it's not the way I teach. It is it's not optional. And so I've seen this many, many times with practitioners, is they hear like, well, I should have a consultation. And so when I go to the website, there's all their different sessions I can book, and one of them is a free consultation. So the way I teach it is not like that at all. The way I teach it is, you cannot book sessions. I can. I personally, like I said, I would never want a client that I hadn't already vetted ever. I just this. I choose my clients, right? And so I encourage others to do the same, because it changes everything. So on the website, the only option is to book the consultation right so you can have all kinds of things about your services. You can show all the different kinds of services. You have sessions, all the different things, and everything is like, book a consultation to talk about which what's right for you. Book a consultation to talk about what's right for you. So that's the only option. So everybody comes through a consultation, and I sort of make a joke and say, like, even if your mother or your sister or your cousin wants to see you, they book a consultation like this isn't about getting the sale or getting the client. This is a a whole process that. Vets them, but also brings them into alignment with you and your services, so that, so that they're great clients, the way I teach it for brick and mortar people, and so I'll just talk about that, rather than online, because that's who we're talking to. We have a different process for online, just to be clear, but for brick and mortar practitioners, the general process we use is that on the website and anywhere else you know, social or whatever, wherever else, the call to action is a 15 minute phone consultation. And so that's actually different than the assessment, so I'll get it. So this is a two step process. So that first step is a 15 minute phone consultation. This is your form of pre qualifying somebody. So this is your initial filter that to immediately take out the obvious nose for you, okay? And that does include budget, location, time commitment, but it can also include some of those, maybe personality things or or particular health parts that are like out of your scope, right? And so it is no more than 15 minutes. We really say 10 minutes or less is what we're aiming for. And it's scripted like I help practitioners script this so that you are not winging it, and you're not going off script. You're following your own script every time like and I did this for eight years with my gym, and still, even in year eight, I pull out my script to stick to my script right, so that I'm not I'm not going off and into some other territory, right? Because it works. And so you are asking a few questions to make sure, a few initial questions to make sure this is somebody you can help. Again, you might right away, kind of go, oh, I actually don't think I'm the right fit for you. But here's somebody who is, again, sometimes really obvious, clear, like health stuff, right? And then you also explain. So after they you go through the initial questions, and they pass through all of those, you explain a little bit about how you work. In my case, as I said, I teach people to create or enroll their clients in programs or treatment plans, right? So you are explaining that here's how this works. Do if you were to work with me, you know, the cost of my services, or the investment in my services, ranges from this to this, depending on your treatment plan. Is that in your budget? Straight up yes or no question, right? But you've already gotten to know them a little bit and established a little rapport, and then you've gotten to that part. You're not asking them to make any decision. You're not asking you're not enrolling them. You're saying, if we had a fit, is that in your budget, you're also asking about anyone else involved in the decision of whether you do that and when they pass through all that, the next step is actually inviting them in for the in person assessment. Now this is where this might be a little different from what people are used to, that in person assessment. They come in for that. And let me just note that in my in my sales process, we do so you schedule that in person assessment, and there might be two days, three days, five days, seven days, until that happens. In that time, you are actually nurturing them, and we call it the prime and prep campaign. So you're priming and prepping them with emails that are telling them what to expect at the assessment, that are giving them case studies of past clients. And this is where that question, Krista, you were asking about talking about yourself, this is where you actually do give a detailed story really about your background. Because the reason we do that is, of course, it builds authority and shows who you are. But we actually don't want their assessment session to be them checking you for like, Well, how long you been doing this? And how did you get into this work? And right, like, we cover that all ahead of time, so that the assessment can just be all about them. So they get those series of emails they come in for the assessment. The part that's a little different about this is that this is free, and so a lot of people kind of go away, like, what? Why would I do this for free? That's such, you know, I mean, like, I'm giving away my time. And so I just want to give my argument around this. First of all, I will say that I have had clients who, in the long run, were like, Yeah, I started char. I'm starting to charge for that. Fine. It's a different energy, though. One of the reasons we do it for free is because it is not a session. It is like an intake session in many ways. But the reason it's free is because, first of all, they've already been vetted to come to this. So I want to say that anybody who, anybody who is an in person practitioner who uses my system, gets minimum. And I'm not this is not hyperbole. I'm not exaggerating here. 80% conversion. We're talking about only one out of five, on average, does not enroll in like a 12 week 18 week might be a six month program, whatever your your plan is. So, because you have that pre qual in place, right? It's all set up that way, and the prime and prep campaign, so these people are enrolling in long term services with you. That's one of the. Reasons I like it. I think that it cuts down on long on the conversion into the program when you're charging for it. Just want to note that I don't want to come in as a prospective client and pay for an assessment and then have to make another decision about, like, enrolling in the program or not, if you give that to me free, and I'm into it, and I'm like, Oh, she can help me got it, and has laid it all out for me. I'm in right? So that session is not again, it's not a free session of your services, and it is an assessment, but it might be a little bit, I mean, we could talk about exactly what it looks like. It is a sales process. Let me just say that it is a sales session. Because what you're doing is you're you're interviewing this, this prospective client, about everything going on with them and their health and so on. You are likely, as a body worker, to put them on the table and do a physical assessment. Now, by the time you do that physical assessment, you know what their problems are, that they're coming in with what their goals are, what's been going on, everything they've tried, and what you're doing after that assessment phase is basically telling them what you see and what their treatment plan would be and why, like you're you're explaining it for them in somewhat, you know, there's going to be some practitioner terms in there that you have to bring down to their level. And so it's somewhat simplistic. You're not going super, super in depth on this, but it's showing them what, what's going on, what they don't have, what they need, and what they need is what you're providing in their treatment plan. And so you're laying that out, and it really does become just a no brainer for somebody at that point, like, yes, okay, and they do it. And so again, they're enrolling in the whole thing. It's not paid session by session. It's paid month by month, or all in full. And I'm, I'm your client, and I'm in it for the for the whole thing. Yeah,
okay, so a couple, a couple of things that I love about that, and then we'll clarify as well. So ending on that, you know, people are paying upfront for say that that full program that you're signing them up for. Again, I just held my hand up as a registered massage therapist in Ontario. We're not able to do that. However, there are listeners from all over the world, and they can, 100% take that initiative, and it's a great option, you know, to get those clients to commit. And then also, I feel like the assessment, though, as you're saying, it sets the client up to trust you. They know what you're talking about. I feel like you can still create that treatment plan and book the appointments so you're getting that commitment and that accountability up front from them. If you are in a place where you're practicing and you're not able to do the payment up front that I feel like this can still set you up in this in the same format, without accepting the payment. You're getting that that commitment from the client and yourself as well. I also love this, because I feel like it helps to create that we're always trying to clients just want to get on the table when we see them, when we don't take the time to do that separate assessment, or when we don't educate them that there will be an assessment process, they just want to jump on the table as fast as possible and use maximize the time that they booked with us. And I feel like so many of us feel like we're losing the skills that we came into this practice with to properly assess and give them our feedback. And we we start to get good at assessing on the table and kind of going through things and, you know, palpating and and finding those discomforts and working out those issues on the table. But I feel like, as you said, with that energy of that first assessment session, like you're really establishing yourself as a professional, and I feel like that is a really, a really good way to set yourself up, that the client is not just jumping right on the table the first five minutes of each of you meeting them, which is typically what happens. Now, you know we have a health history, but then we do the intake, and then they're just like, you're kind of looking at the clock as you're talking to them. And they're like, why am I like, counting, counting down the and then they want to jump on the table. So I feel like these are all really, like, really great points that we can implement into our practice. Yes, okay. And then I have an after, I mean, I don't know if it's worth bringing up here, but I was wondering how jump in. Yeah, I want to
butt in on what you said, which is, I mean, it's so cool to hear your perspective, but also to know both from the practitioner side and the client side. When you're saying how you know you may be doing some kind of soft tissue assessment or whatever, what often is happening is that's in your head, you're not actually talking to the client. About it. And as a client of body workers, right? Like I'm missing that, I actually want to know what what are you noticing? What's going on? And that initial consultation, you're also really focused on big picture. That's what the treatment plan is, big picture versus the standard. I come in and you say, How's your body today? What's going on today? And it's like, it's not in a context of this is our plan that we're in, our big picture plan that we're in, right? And so I actually want to know what you're seeing each time and where that fits in the trajectory of this plan. And so many practitioners want to talk about that, but don't feel like there's space for that, and this provides the space for that. And I want to say your clients do want that. They they want to know that. Of course, there are some who are just like, just do your thing, right? But a lot of people want to be engaged in their own health treatment. It's like an opportunity to sunlight, you know, like everything that you as a practitioner are thinking about and doing as you're treating someone. Yeah,
there is always yes, so much going on in our heads that, you know, we get excited about, but you're you're right when it is in the way that we set ourselves up in a treatment session is that it's your there's no conversation between the client and the therapist, and maybe after we then give them the rundown of what we felt and saw. But, and some clients are really curious in the moment, like, Ooh, what do you feel there? Like, how you know, how's it going? But I feel like that, that invitation in your your recommendations is, is there, and we should be more verbal about it anything additionally, because I can hold, hopefully, the thought that I that I have, but
I don't think so. And just to say it doesn't have to happen in the moment, I'm not saying that it's just in, in, it's just in, sometime in a session, it's like, here's where we are. Do you know? I mean, we're three weeks into this. Here's here's where we're at. Because when in the consultation, when you're laying out a treatment plan, you're also going to be laying out, here's the things that I want to address, here's what I want to get to. Here's what I think is what's really going on, right? And so it's just keeping us informed about that and and the treatment, yeah, yeah,
wonderful. The clients that you do work with to implement these systems. Do you find? Are they both clinic owners? Are they solo practitioners? The common model say with us is that I'm a clinic owner and I have therapists working with me. I feel like there's you can do it in all kinds of different directions. But what kind of clients do you
have? Yeah, I work with both. I'd say most are solo practitioners. And then I absolutely have clinic owners and practice owners. And then the longer somebody works with me, the more likely they are to end up building a team, so people may start as solo practitioners and then end up building a larger practice. Yeah, so was there. I
mean, I would just like to assure people that they're even as a clinic owner myself, I'm still not in control. I am a light, like of a licensing agreement, so I'm still not in control of, like, the booking process and how everything trickles down. But I would also like to say that if you are in that position where you're an independent contractor within a clinic, I feel like that like, just as Joanna said, even under your services, there's no booking option that can be set up for you as an individual practitioner, even if you're working in a group clinic. So if you want to implement these, these changes to your practice, then don't feel like you have to go by what the clinic is dictating. You can create this in your own as your own practice, and that's what I do say. Like, even though you're an independent contractor and working with a clinic, you're still your own you have to be your own business. So So I think that this is still possible. I just wanted to assure people that we're not speaking to only one population, and sometimes you just need that. Oh, yeah. I didn't think about it that way.
Yeah, yeah. And if you are a clinic owner, this is, this is something you can implement in your whole clinic, and, and, you know, it's different if you have independent contractors, but if you have employees, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
wonderful. Okay, so we've got the assessment, and then they've been, you know, enrolled in a program. What? What else can, can we, can we share about about that process, or any, any other little, little things you can bring?
Well, this would be a good place if you have questions. But I'll just throw. In that when you are create, when you are truly enrolling somebody in a in a treatment plan, right, and getting their commitment in that way, and like the two of you together are in this together, you get to really think about what's the Dream service? What does this person really, really need? And just to note that it might be more than it might be more than just the sessions where they come into you you know, I know lots of body workers will assign, like, you know, certain movements or rehab kind of stuff, or rolling, like we were talking about, or whatever. You're going to see a lot higher commitment when you are enrolling somebody in a program, right? We just want to be aware of not, like a fire hose of information. You're not going to get compliance from somebody when you're giving them like five things to do, oh, you know, every time. But if you think through the treatment plan and really think about, okay, you know, what are the habits I want to help this person build and really kind of stick with them, you will get people really doing the stuff that you're suggesting they do, which you know most of the time, usually they're not, right, right? No, they're not.
But I think that that's also great. And I think that the more as you're saying when you're working with a clientele that that you you treat the best and that you get along with the best, then you're also starting to develop a system for those treatment plans, and so that almost becomes an automatic process. Yes, everybody is an individual, and everybody has different bodies, but that treatment plan is only going to be something that you're kind of reusing and the exercises so you don't have to, as you said, come at it from a new perspective. Every time that's
exactly right, it makes business so much easier. So this is absolutely how I teach it. So what I teach is you are not actually creating bespoke plans for every single person you have, because you have honed in on who your ideal clientele are. You basically are creating a container, or there may be more than one. Maybe there's two different kind of options, but within that container, sure, there's customization, but there's also kind of a streamlined system that you're following for every single person, even if it's a little bit, you know, different sessions, or a little bit different based on that person's body and what's going on. But it's essentially the same process. Going back to what I was talking about that framework, the framework you have is that structure. It's the structure of what your services are, and so it's essentially the same, right, with customization
ability. Yeah, wonderful. Can I ask a question? Yes, okay, thanks. So going back to selling a full package. Is there ever any occurrence where you don't need or make it to the 12 sessions and, and, or financially, the client need, you know, needs some of that, that back or, like, how? How does that ever happen? Yeah,
I don't usually hear about that happening, but I get that question plenty of times when a practitioner is doing it, my stance is always just full 100% transparency. I think what happens more often is that the client needs more. I think that's more often than less, right? Because I think practitioners tend to be more conservative. They're not trying to stretch. They're not trying to create a long program when they when they know that some of their clients may may only need less right? So it's more often than the other. But regardless of which direction it goes, it's full transparency, just like I was saying how, as the client like I want to know, where are we in the trajectory? Let's say that your, your, your kind of standard treatment plan. I'll just, I'll know this too, you know, having a body worker client who ended up creating three of these containers, six weeks, nine weeks, 12 weeks. And these were for, you know, acute injuries or chronic injuries that people were coming with, and then just to give everybody a picture. So that's the initial kind of it was. Injury is specifically what people would come to him for. And so he does an assessment. He's deciding, Is this person a six week, a nine week or a 12 week? They don't know that. They don't know that there's choices. There's not choices for them, right? He's he's doing that, and just like you were talking about, each of those is streamlined. So he knows what the process is for 12 week. He knows what the six week he knows what the nine week is. Now, if somebody's in nine weeks and he realizes, you know, five weeks in, this is actually moving a lot more slowly than I thought. He needs to talk to the client about that and say, this is happening more slowly than I thought. And it can be the reverse. It's just funny. I don't hear about these happening, but let's say he, you know, decided I think this is a hard this is a hard case, and it's going to take us 12 weeks, and four weeks in, they're responding really well. He can be transparent and say, I actually think this is going to take us less time, and we may be done it, you know, eight weeks or six weeks, or whatever. So. Just transparency there, I wouldn't say it happens very often, and when it does, it's usually that they need more. So tell that to the client as soon as you can you know just how their body's responding. I'm also just going to use this opportunity to share that my my body worker clients, who who do this there. It really depends on your clientele. But like, for this guy who I'm thinking of, for example, because people are coming to him for, like, with an injury and in pain, right? That that program, he has that treatment plan. I call that the front end program. And so that's the front end program that to intensively address just this thing they're coming in for. But after that's done, a percentage of your clients are going to want to continue to get care from you in some way. And so you design what I call your back end program. And so your back end program is really more like long term maintenance program, right? So this might be like a year at a time of coming in once a month or twice a month, or something like that. Like it really depends on you and your client, talent, and it all. It all goes to what you believe your people need, right? And so there's been really creative stuff that I've had, that I've had clients create on that back end. But just to note that, that that's what it what it looks like,
perfect. That was going to be one of my next questions. Was they go and if they do want to continue with you as maintenance like, and now all they can do is the consult button and they can't book, you know, they can't just book their next session, but that that clarifies that, you know, you're, you're creating another program. And again, you know, like the the payment and those sessions are, are coming up front. Or, if you're not able to do that, at least you can book those appointments in advance to get that that, yeah,
those ones, I'll say, the back end programs for all the practitioners that work with me are generally billed monthly, even though it's like a six month or a year long commitment and it's just billed monthly. So it's just kind of the standard you I'll just note too, like, you don't get cancelations and no shows, like in this, in this process, you just don't, people are paying for it, and they're gonna, they're paying for it, regardless of whether they come in in this, in, you know, when people can and and they come in for that. I'm also just want to say practitioners are able to get really creative as well and learn how to, you know, body workers are, are one of the fields that I work with that is incredibly hard to do a one to many service and leverage your time with more than one person, right? Even some other in person. Practitioners, like acupuncturist can put needles in somebody and then go to another room, and they can serve more than one people at a time. But body workers, I don't see that happening, right? But with that back end program, I've seen some amazing creative things where they are leveraging their time in a one to many so for example, it might be that the back end program is one or two, you know, sessions, one on one, sessions per month. But then it also includes, like, a week or every other week, like movement rehab session, and that might be done online with all the clients that they can drop into, right? And so there's a way to really help people, like, keep them accountable and be teaching them and showing them new things and working with them around those exercises you want them to to be doing, right? You could even have that in your front end program to mention as well like, and so that's getting to serve all your clients at once right in in one period of time.
How? How can you implement something like this? If you are already like a busy practitioner, and now you're you kind of see a mix of people, and you do like the clients that you see, but maybe there isn't anything necessarily common, and then now you want to implement this consultation process. Have you? Have you had to work with clients to, you know, change their their whole
practice? Oh, yeah. The vast majority of my clients are established practitioners who have been in business for a while. Yeah, yeah. It is a, it is a transition process. So what we do is we begin by so somebody who's a busy practitioner. Again, this is the majority of my clients, busy practitioners. And so we begin by, you know, we we do identify who their ideal clients are, people who are been in business for a while and are busy, are the ones who have the most data. And it actually is easiest to do. It's scary. It can be scary, it can feel scary, but it's the easiest to do. And we become really clear. They develop their framework for those people, and then their programs just for those ideal clients. And then what we do is we learn the sales process implemented in their business and and start getting their first new clients. So this is new inquiries have to go through this process. So new inquiries start getting enrolled in the program while all the old clients are still on the old thing, and don't even really know that there's been a change. They got their own old stuff. And when the practitioner is ready, then we actually do a transition campaign. And so when they're ready, can there can be a range some people immediately are like, Oh my god. This, this new way is so much better. I want it all. I would just want to do that right away. But a lot of people, there's money concerns, right? So we make, as in, like, I got all these people who booked these sessions, and that's where, that's where income is coming from right now. So we make, like, money goals, or a number goals. We might say something like, once 10 people, 10 new people have enrolled in your program. I ask them, is what I say, how many people would you want to enroll before you feel like you're ready to transition the whole practice? So they might say 10, or it might be a money amount, like, once I've made $40,000 off the new programs, then I'm ready to, you know, enroll, change everybody. And so that's a campaign that I lead folks through. And, you know, I've had practitioners who, who will, who will hold on to a selective, you know, two favorite clients that have been with them for 10 years kind of thing, and let them just stay on the old way, but everybody else, and it's essentially, again, an education campaign. And just says, here's the new way I'm offering my services. There's all kinds of ways we can make it really work, really well for the practitioner. But, you know, the majority of body workers have, you know, hundreds of kind of former clients who are it's interesting. A lot of times they'll call them clients, but it's like, they're people who just come in sporadically, like you may lose some of those people, and it's not a big deal once you're enrolling folks in your programs, because, again, once you experience that and the level of commitment, that's kind of all all you want, right? And you don't want your schedule to be filled with people randomly getting into your schedule. Like there's so much more intentionality in this way. I will also know Krista that this is such a wonderful opportunity for the people who are booked and busy, like overly booked and overly busy, the ones who are just completely, you know, have no free time. This is such a wonderful opportunity to reset your whole business. And I take, I take practitioners through a process that I call Take back your time, and it's a whole calendar restructuring, so that you're not working so much. And really, the promise of my program and the work that I do is to make more money in less time, and in part time, hours actually. And so it's that's, that's one of my I will say that me as a strategist and coach like my favorite thing is helping practitioners get their lives back by putting way more white space in their calendar and still making as much and more money than they were before.
It's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you. Joanna, I feel like there's lots of wonderful, actionable steps that we can take now. But also please share how people can get in touch with you so that they can follow and learn more and potentially work with you. Yeah,
so I'll share two things. I mean, if you're interested in working with me, just to give a little insight, my program is called the profitable practitioner Academy, and that's a 12 month program with all the things that we've talked about here and more where we I teach you how to implement all those pieces with all the tools and steps that you might need to simply learn more from Me and you know and and hear, hear my voice more. I have a podcast, and it's called the Business Revolution for practitioners and that that's got some goodies. It's, I will say it's irregular. It's the kind of podcast that people like binge on, you know. So go ahead and find that in the player, whatever player you're listening to. And then my website has several different freebies that you're welcome to go check out and download, including master classes, trainings, tools. My website's joannasapure.com
Great. Anything else that we can add to the conversation here, Joanna, I'm happy to keep going.
Like I said, I think we were all over the place and said a lot of different things. So yeah, if you're listening and you're like, there were so many different things, oh my goodness, yeah, there were a lot of different things. And they were all, they all came from different directions. Yes, yeah.
I do hope we established the, the goal of the what we wanted to to hit there in the in the episode. But Yeah, unfortunately, the episodes usually do go in in several different directions. But then thank you for bringing it, bringing it back.
So yeah, I mean, we covered, you know, knowing who your ideal clients are, marketing is what kind of calls them in and educates people and then offers invitations to them, right? And the invitation gets them into your sales pipeline. And your sales pipeline, your sales process, is a step by step process where you're vetting people, you're filtering them, you're inviting them in for an assessment, and that's where you can enroll them in treatment plans and programs. And so we talked about what it's like to to do that, and how what better results you get from clients, and how much. More commitment there is, and how much more fulfilling it is as a practitioner to be enrolling folks in programs.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Joanna, yeah, thanks for having me. Krista, good to talk to you. Applause.
