45 | Sorry, Harry! It's Chinny for the winny! (Cho Chang/Ginny Weasley)

3:57AM Aug 3, 2023

Speakers:

Megs

Nathan

Keywords:

harry

character

cho

talk

ginny

literally

jenny

episode

people

writing

feel

read

person

love

fandom

year

wheelchair

work

feelings

ship

Hey there listener Fancy seeing you here. Look, sometimes due to the things we discuss on the pod, it might contain potentially triggering content. But the good news is you can always review the episode description for a full list of the warnings applicable to this episode. Oh, and just so you know, this episode is rated are really filthy. It includes adult themes and explicit content. So if you're an adult, buckle up, Gird your loins and prepare to flood the basement because we are going down with these ships. Ships space, let's

go to ship big. Don't care if I get my bearings. Well, then you can hit the bricks. This is my own TV

Well, welcome back to Care of Magical shippers podcast Harry Potter ship culture podcast. I am Meg's.

I'm Nathan. Hi, guys. Have you been just having a little giggle to ourself? Well, we're having a good time today.

Yeah, like always, we had our like, laughy fit before even starting. So then it's like, okay, we gotta like, calm down. Just Zen chill. But then the giggles will come back like they do. So. Yeah,

I know. I mean, I don't feel like it's going to be a very particularly calm episode today, because we've got a fire ship to talk about.

I mean, it'll be fun. I'm excited.

It comes off the back of episodes that we know you love, like Linny. And we get to talk about a character that we've never really talked about in detail before. So I'm excited. Do you want to reveal what we're doing? I mean, they know what they're listening to. Because you've clicked on the title. Right?

You've seen, I mean, you know,

it's a surprise to nobody bought us at this point. But like, I'm gonna give you like a fake drum rolling.

So this week, we're gonna be doing femslash gasp Oh my gosh, we're doing femslash we're gonna be doing Cho Chang and Ginny Weasley. So I'm excited to return to Ginny because like you said, like Linny is one of our more popular episodes, which was really fun. So I'm excited to explore these guys together. And just like you said, Show, I don't think we've I mean, maybe have mentioned in passing in regards to like Harry discussion or something, but to actually focus on her character and their relationship will be it'll be fun, I'm excited to to look at Joe because she's definitely a very, she's a character that gets a tough time like credit like critically by like fandom and fans, but also just how she was perceived by, you know, the author and things like that, like, there's just a lot of opportunities to explore her in a more like, positive, forgiving way. And you know, things like that. So I'm excited.

Definitely. Just really quickly, before we hop into the meat and bones, the episode, I wanted to, I wanted to very quickly say this is coming off the back of I had the opportunity to go to a local Pride Parade recently. It was a fantastic time, I had a great time. And then I was staying with my parents, and my parents decided to not be very nice, and decided to be quite homophobic. And so I just wanted to say very quickly to our lovely listeners, because I know that ally ship isn't always guaranteed, and that sometimes safe spaces kind of mutate and don't become safe for us anymore. I really hope that this podcast continues to be your safe fandom space, it really matters to me that we represent you all and that, you know, there's a diverse range of opinions and things that we're passionate about, and things that we get excited about, and that we uphold and love and value all in a way that's equitable. And, you know, hopefully that we weave over time, you know, we've earned your giggles and your trust. And I just want to say I want to keep doing this for you because it's really important that you feel represented in the space. And yeah, with that, we can sashay straight back into talking about Cho in particular, which I you know, I'm really excited about because, okay, so I don't know if you remember, but a while ago, because I'm into my performance poetry. A while ago, I stumbled across a performance poem by somebody and the title was to JK Rowling from Chow Chan. And this was a an amazing poem on the you know, that pointed out these various things like Chow and Chan are both Korean last names, I believe Korea last names.

Oh, yes, I remember reading something. Yeah, something along those lines of it's not it was just a very just they're just like, oh, this sounds Asian you know, it was just a very softly there's a lot of issues there with that name. It's like okay, okay JK, okay.

Yeah. And from someone who, you know, went to the trouble to create an American magical school and we're told went to great details to you know, fuss over the nomenclature to get you know, I unload Voldemort to come out of Tom Marvolo Riddle, you know, we know that Jkr had a thing for word play. And so you would hope that that same level of care and attention to detail would be uniform across the board doesn't look like it's kind of worked out that way with certain details. And this is only just the very tip of the iceberg as to why Cho is festival and underrated character. But also she's under sold. She's sort of written off as a plot device for Harry to have feelings for conveniently until she's not necessary for plot development. In the in the actual books that is where she becomes interesting is in fanfiction, and this is where we can start to talk about justice for Cho and I'm like, I'm excited to get my femslash on today because it's been so long. And I feel like because we've had such a prolonged break from it. I feel like we can dive straight back in and to pair her up with Ginny feels. I mean, Ginny is just awesome, isn't she?

Yeah, I love Ginny so much. She's great. Like, I mean, like I love Bonnie Right. Like I love her. But I definitely think that book Jenny excels to a degree above what, you know, obviously they portrayed as her character in the films. So that's another thing that you know, I mean, kind of we talked we've talked about before is like there's a lot of that comparison of like, Oh, she's just like a lily replacement you know Harry and his mom and blah blah blah but it's like Ginny is so different and she's she was actually written to be you know, a very unique and strong and independent character who has been through really intense traumatic things at you know, a young age obviously being possessed by the dark lord and like killing chickens and painting chicken blood all over the walls and almost dying. I mean, just she's been through a lot of shit and come out of it with like, a really positive point of view. Like super fun. She's just as silly and goofy as the twins and she you know, but she's also really smart and doesn't let you know Ron get away with you know certain things and I think that we obviously needed more strong female characters in the series in general but I do yeah, we did. I do love you know, even though there were so few like I feel like that I do love that we had you know, Ginny and Luna and but we only had them for like, really the latter half of the books. Like they just kind of were like sprinkled in until they were kind of like the same thing until they were important or they needed to pull in new characters or things like that. But But yeah, no, I love I love Jenny a lot. And I love fandom Ginny and where people take her beyond like, I love her as, you know, someone who like post Hogwarts and post war and everything like gets into doing like, what Ginny wants to do, like not just like, oh, I you know, I'm I'm here to be the chosen ones girlfriends, like I love her going off and becoming like a Quidditch star. And that means like traveling and doing her own thing and, and having that like short fierce haircut I freaking love and just being like, super like a strong representation of like, not like the pretty, you know, like femme lesbian, like is just like super strong and confident and I love Ginny so much and I definitely love short hair Jenny's like whenever I see fan art with her with short hair or like even just like a bob or something like that. I just think it's so gorgeous and fun. And I love that so much for her.

That's definitely a mood. I think my favorite Jenny mood personally, is like golf emo Ginny, like, like the the, the sort of the dyed black hair and then the like intense makeup of a smoky eye. And she's she like Liggins, into her, her her darker feelings because you know, she's moving on from Harry, where she was all cutesy and everything was oh, you know, fluffy and everything. And she she because obviously you know she lost her brother in the war if we're, if that's happening today,

right going off of yeah Yeah, and she,

she has a lot to deal with. And she also is the only Weasley sibling that who's female, and so has to like, sort of pull, I don't want to say fight for her place, because they're a nice family. But you know what I mean, she has to sort of forge her own destiny, if we want to be dramatic about it. And my favorite version of Ginny is when Ginny is dramatic about it, she leans into that she becomes sort of powerful in her, you know, righteous indignation, or whatever it happens to be whatever that flavor is. And, and that, to me is extra powerful when you pair it with somebody like Joe, because Joe is also an acts of Harry's. So it's like the, it almost becomes the like, we've moved on from Harry Potter club. And then it becomes like, okay, yes, but this is who we are as actual rounded human people who then happen to, however that happens, fall in love with each other, which is why I think, on some level, I love that so much because they think all that's tying them together is like rolling their eyes at Harry Potter. But essentially, they're also in doing that getting closer to each other to the point where, you know, somebody will brush somebody's hand or you know, an exchange will linger just that little bit too long, and then all of a sudden, boom, boobs.

Boom, boobs.

I'm sorry, as a gay man, I'm just like, I feel woefully inadequately qualified to talk about female anatomy.

You know, boobs, like, right? Like, oh, yeah,

yeah. Yeah. And like, particularly when they're spelled like btw BS.

Did you ever do the thing with your calculator doing 600? Yes.

Yes, they did. Boobies in maths class. That's all I did in that class, actually, like, I got my C at GCSE. That's all I need. Like, I don't remember that. Well, I say I don't remember trigonometry. I do. Remember, we had to memorize the formula for a quadratic equation. And for my sins, I still know it. I'm not going to repeat it here because it's not it's just boring. But like that, that is a piece of maths that is taking up space in my brain that could be being used for useful things like shipping but no, it's the maths is still there could no other than that I mostly just in maths class just spelt boobies on my calculator. Love that. I had a really fun time doing it.

So good. Well, I want to I mean, I definitely want to get into like postwar Ness as we kind of are like dancing around but I want to like back up a little bit and go back to salsa ring around. Yes. So even starting back in like Goblet of Fire. Because that's kind of that's really we've like we hear chose name, I think what is it like Harry plays against her? Is it in the third

book? Oh, it's in Prisoner of Azkaban? Yes.

Yeah. So like She's introduced, but then obviously doesn't come into play, you know, to the extent that she is in the fourth book. And like, at the time, like we, we know, like Ginny, obviously has been, you know, crushing on Harry since forever. And then obviously, Harry saves her life, you know, second year, so there's that extra level of, you know, he saved me sort of thing. But I saw what I could see as her starting off with like noticing Harry's interested in show starting as maybe a little bit of like jealousy toward her could turn into because she keeps her eyes on her so much, that all of a sudden she starts seeing someone not as like, not as like a rival in love, but then realizing like, oh, either I have a lot in common with this girl or there's actually things that really fascinate me. You know about her because isn't she's, she's technically a year older than Harry and so then two years older than Ginny, right? Or like years ahead, I'm pretty sure

yes, yes. I want to say yeah, because she's in fourth year when he's in third year I think

yes, I think she was one ahead. So then she was in let's see, this is why we Yes,

there's a two year age gap between Ginny Uncho This is why I got my see enough because I was too busy.

Yes, because we were talking about this just boobies and we obviously didn't consider you know stuff and we're getting into the whole like Marcus Flint thing of like, Wait, he was he was in fourth but then he was in seventh again and blah blah blah and all this stuff and that was really funny. And we that that also that definitely hurts your brain that you Just like there was actually an error, but then they went back and fix that error and yeah, blah, blah. But anyway, so I think what could have definitely started as Ginny focusing on show because she knows Harry is interested, but then chose obviously, maybe she's, she's has to be somewhat aware of Harry's feelings, but then obviously she's with Cedric who is perceived to be very attractive and smart and nice. And like, you know, it's like, Who wouldn't want Cedric as a boyfriend sort of thing? And then of course, he dies. So that's the thing with show that we just like, like, I think even, you know, they talk about like, Oh, she's always crying like, they just they put such like, negative I don't know if her mind he said it or something like that. Like she's always crying nowadays. Like, of course, she is. Like, literally her boyfriend, it didn't even matter that it was a boyfriend, like just just the trauma of, of realizing and seeing someone's death that you're close to in any capacity has to be so traumatic. And then she has to sit in that, like, it's literally the end of the previous year, and then she has to go home. And then that's all she you know, is dealing with and no wonder like, Harry, the like, daft idiot that he is, is like, Oh, well, you know, she's sad, but also she's single. So

it also, like, if I was hurry in that moment, you know, Harry is also dealing with Cedric step, because he's seen it happen. So if I were hurry, in that moment, over that summer, I'd have been writing to Cho and being like, so you know, I know, this is like a difficult subject or whatever. But I just want to say, you know, I'm here. If you want to talk, let's I will back and forth, then maybe you build something out of that, because you build off of your bond of like, you're you're trying to work past your trauma together. You know, it's not this morbid thing of like, oh, yeah, so Cedric died. I saw it happen and you want to snuggle me on to some mistletoe, that's can be really

well, honestly, that's what she wanted. She sought out Harry because she wanted someone that she could talk about it with and that would understand. And then Harry was the one who shut her down because he's like, I don't want to talk about this. I've had to sit in this for too long. And she's like, No one will listen to me. Like there's no one else that I can talk to about this. So that was something that always why doesn't Hogwarts have therapy? I know exactly. Like that's just that always made me so sad. Because I can understand why Harry would want to escape. But then I can also empathize with the fact that chode needs to talk about it with someone who gets it as hard as it is. But you know, Harry, it's hard to have those conversations. And it's easier to just be like, I don't want to have them you know, like Harry's, obviously not the emotionally well adjusted person. And so I think that's where kind of Jenny could come in as because because they're all in Dumbledore's Army together. So Jenny's even there. And so then she's exposed to, to show and the whole group and things like that. And maybe once again, she's noticing that like, okay, Cho is showing interest in Harry and then maybe Jenny still has that thing for Harry but working closely with her and seeing like, Oh, she is a really strong in a witch or vice versa, like shown noticing Jimmy and her skills to not having interacted being too, you know, two years apart from one another. Apart from Quidditch, they probably haven't really mixed in the same circles at all because of that, you know, age difference or not having classes together. So I think that that's the community that comes from Dumbledore is army, like, literally, everyone's there with the same intent of like, we need to learn we need to become stronger, we need to take this seriously. Like we need to be able to fight and that there's something worth fighting for. So I think that there that passion behind it is another reason why, even though it failed, obviously, that kind of pushed show and Harry together, but I think that, like, I just feel like Cho would probably be or sorry, Jenny would be the person that would be capable of dealing with the emotions that Harry couldn't, would never have been able to do for chill. So even if things happened with Harry and then things went bad and then Ginni there noticed something happened and so then maybe from the beginning, it was literally her being like, I yeah, that just that's not going anywhere anymore. And she's like, secretly really, like happy about it, but then after talking, you know, to show and things like that, because then we get into the trope of like, you see this a lot. I mean, it just a lot of teen movies or shows or things are like that fake, even like comics and things like that, but When you have, like, you have a goal in mind. And then obviously, you're like creating false friendships or false relationships to get to a different end. But then obviously, on that journey, you're meeting a different person through that, that you ultimately end up like, oh, that's the person I should be with and not using them to get to someone else. And then you're dealing with the fallout of like them realizing that they were originally used instead of, you know, kind of goes into, I think what we talked about, you know, with the 10 Things I Hate About You, like, that's, there's, there's that one with that of him seeing her as a means to whether he was paid or something like that, but then ultimately did fall in love with her. And he had to show her that, yeah, that she's actually someone he wants to be with, and isn't just someone who was forced to get to fall in love with him or things like that. So I could see from certain, you know, for from a certain level, Ginni, having that mindset of like, Oh, I'm gonna get close to Cho so that I know, I guess, like my competition, and I'm able to say, or manipulate or do things, but then eventually, she kind of like, acknowledges her own feelings of this is wrong, and I can see that this person is hurting. And I actually want to be a genuine friend for this person. And then when she finally accepts that, and becomes that fourth show, things grow from there, and in a way that neither of them could have anticipated, which I love, too. So that is, like, even even though she loses Cedric, and it's before Jenny loses Fred, like she is, like any sort of trauma, you can still understand when something has been severely upsetting. And you know that you needed someone in your corner, and I feel like Ginny could empathize to that degree. Then of course, we get into fast forward when Fred does die, say Jenny and Joe have been friends, like genuinely just friends this whole time. Partially because like, Oh, she's friends with Luna, and maybe Luna and Joe actually do get along because they're in Ravenclaw together or something like that. And then she knows she's able to go to show to help her deal with grieving, because, or even them finally being able to grieve together. Because that's another thing too, like it's easy to shut down. In the moment of something happening, not everyone grieves immediately. Like there are plenty of people present. So it could have been something that like seeing Jenny dealing with her own grief, maybe opened up the wounds that chose never dealt with, with Cedric. And then finally, you know, then together they, you know, I think we maybe even talked about that in the Liddy episode about like about Luna and her losing her mother and things like that.

I think we definitely did. Yeah, so

it's like it goes to show. I mean, so it felt every time we talk about something similar, it just validates that, obviously, we know what we're talking

what we just we agree with ourselves, which is either very good, or it proves that we haven't evolved in our stance at all. And we're just, you know, permanently stuck in this limbo of like, I still love these characters. But I was just gonna say it wouldn't be like makes to a bring a TED talk to a podcast, or launch so hard into conflict to be like, okay, they can be together and that's fine, but they have to go through all the trauma. Years of trauma, character death, to get to a place where they can finally be happy. Okay, we got the belts on brand for you.

All right, Nathan, tell me about all the fluff between these two.

With me, there's no middle ground. It's either you're getting the fluffiest thing in the world, or the kinkiest thing in the world. And I'm like, that's true. Why can these things not coexist? Like why can all characters not be cute little fuzzy bears in harnesses?

And test anyway, fuzzy harnesses? Yes, you know, like fuzzy handcuffs, and like, everything is just like, it's like a feather boa. But it's literally like Shabari and stuff like

Yes. And I have a friend who does Shibori and she's exceptional. And she could, she would probably be able to do it with a feather boa, and show me how to like, She's honestly she's so talented. And she sends me like pictures of like knots she's working on and it's so intricate and incredible. Hi, Sammy, if you're listening. Anyway, back to the subject of today's podcast, which is, which is Jenny Jo. All almost said, I almost said no, we're not talking about doing it today. Now one of the one of the reasons that I think that they work well together is that thought though mutual love of Quidditch and potential excellence in Quidditch after they leave school sets them up for maybe a joint Korea venture so they ended up on the same. Maybe they're both on the Hollywood harpies and cliched little bit cliched, but maybe they end up there. And then they're both, you know, excellent in their own fields. And it is maybe they don't even maybe they weren't close in school, so they didn't really have any latent feelings, but it's happened to me where I've bumped into people later in life that I've known in school who I wasn't close to, but then subsequently to that. They've become like really good friends. And so you've got something to say. So you want to jump in.

Okay, so I am going to plug a thick by Danny dam puff. It's actually a drawn so it's called collateral damage. So it's Draco Malfoy and, and Ron Weasley. Sorry, I'm like, not Harry, we did here. We did Draco and Harry three times before and now we're moving on. But, uh, something like it's it's literally probably the best drawing I've I've ever read. It's still one of my top fics in general, like the fact that Danny did something so amazing. That technically wasn't Snarry Even though it did have background scary, because it's Danny, you know,

of course it did. I was gonna say,

but it's so good. So everyone needs everyone needs to read it. It's fantastic. But ultimately, I mean, it's, it's in the summary. I'll even like, you know, spoilers if you want to jump ahead, you know, a little bit, go ahead. But ultimately, in the media, it's perceived that Ron and Harry are together, because they're always doing stuff together. And very never, like neither of them address the media saying that they're not a couple. So that's all Draco knows, and assumes is that Harry and Ron are together. So he wants to get initially he wants to get revenge on Harry. So he goes after Ron. But he's doing it in a way that he's assuming that he's seducing his boyfriend. So then they have this, you know, secret relationship that happens, and then ultimately, later on discovers that they're not really together. And so then obviously, the drama that comes from that when Ron realizes, Oh, you're only with me, because you're trying to get back at Harry and you think I'm cheating on Harry sort of thing. And so circling back to Ginny and show, so let's say that they are on a Quidditch team together, like professionally, Holly had herpes or whatever. And they do get to know each other. And you know, you like even I think we've talked with like with Flintwood or anything like sporty, you know, you're gonna have those moments like glancing in the locker room, especially if you're like interested in somebody, you're just you know, there, you're not going to not, you know, look, and maybe show is like it could go either way. So most likely, because Ginny and Harry happened later on. And it could also be an instance where same thing, they're really good friends, because Harry spends time with Ron, and then he spends time with Ginny and then with George and things like that. And so then the media assumes that Harry and Ginny are together. But she never says no, we're not. But she never says yes, we are. It's just it's in the media, neither of them want to even deal with the media or anything relationship driven, if she's, if she's interviewed for Quidditch, maybe they talk about private life, and she's like, I'm not going to speak on any of that. So then All she knows is that nothing has been said either way. And then she assumes that they are together, like Harry goes to all of our games, you know, like, the all those things. And so she makes all these assumptions that Ginny isn't available. And then eventually, you know, Ginny is like, When have I ever said that? Harry and I are together, especially if Ginny starts showing her interest back, or Jo holds back because she thinks that she can't, you know, pursue Jenny. But then Jenny's like, I've been waiting for you to make a move forever. And she's like, but you're with Harry and she's like, since when we had one kiss in the middle of the battle. And since then, we both realized how gay we both are. Like, no wonder he was so awkward about dating in school because he was like, didn't realize that it wasn't you know, so I just I love that reading that trope in and collateral damage pulling that into an another instance of people thinking that people are together because they don't want to deal with the media. So then eventually when they do come together, however, Cho would find out who like who knows like maybe it's through other teammates or she did end up going out you know, with the team and then like Harry and Ron and you know, some people come you know, all together a Cho and Ginny invites show out to go out drinking with her friends or something after a game. Yeah, and then she's obviously Interested, Hermione knows because her mind is her mind. I was gonna say she's gonna be sitting there watching like, okay, something's going on. And then maybe her mind even says like, why don't you tell her? It's like, well, you know, I can't just do that. Well, why not? Well, because Harry and she's like, Why does Harry America matter? Why does it's like oh, do you still have feelings for him to from way back when she's like, hell no, like

random random side note, I love the idea that her mining is massively into queer theory. And she's so she's like using these two as her like social case study. And obviously, you have feelings for that you haven't declared I read about this in lesbians history

I'm just I love first of all, that book to exist, please Like someone write that book for me. And then you know, I will happily write the foreword for it. I I'm so like, I just love the fact that she, Hermione is one of those people that will always cheerlead for others from the side, so the fact that she's able to do it, and of course, she's gonna do it in a completely Hermione ish, nerdy way. But she's gonna she's also going to just be rolling her eyes at Jenny and just be like, just make the first move already. You do something? Don't you know, subtlety isn't working, you know, like, you need to be absolutely black and white about your feelings, because nothing else is going to work. And you know, and this is after, you know, chapters and chapters of frustration and, and pent up, you know,

the slowest of slow burns.

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, there are moments with of super severe character doubt where either of them are just like, do they even have feelings for me? Is this really working? You know, because, like, I'm assuming that no one will do the sensible thing and like, get their Patronus is to talk to each other. Because that's also a thing that adult wizards can do. So yeah, I mean, we've talked about that before, and potential soulmates and, you know, maybe do we actually know what Chos Patronus is?

I'm trying to think like, because in the movies they were doing them but I don't know that we saw hers because we saw I think Lunas rabbit like run around or something like that. I know that Jenny has a horse like some sort of mare I want to say, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if if we know chose Patronus or not.

I kind of want to do a quick Google break just to see if no,

that's what I'm doing. Patronus because I you know that I love the Yeah, like like Patronus soulmate things. Sorry, tangent again. I'm surprised we didn't talk about Patronus in the Drarry trucks episode. Well, we'll just we have time to use it and literally every other episode for everyone else. So

if that will be happening. A swan, a swan? Wow,

a swan and a horse.

Well, if the if the horse is like drinking at the water's edge, and there's one can just gently like glide.

Just like there, would it out. Okay, now I'm picturing the swans like neck like nuzzling, the, you know, the horse and just oh my gosh, that's okay. Suddenly,

this is too cute.

It is too cute. Yeah. Oh, man. Okay, so we figured that out. Obviously, horses and swans are soulmates. So case closed, there perfect.

We don't need to say anything else. This is going to be all shorter stuff. 35 minutes in and we're done. And I've had my mic. Mic it for today. And I've just done it again. Boom, boom, boom, boom. It was an attempt to have Vengaboys reference, but then I realized if you don't know the song, it's not going to. That's not going to track. Let's cut that out. Just let's go past that moment. I'll just hit my mic, and we'll continue on. Can you foresee a potential where there is a potential triad here between Joe and Ginny and Harry?

Yes, I mean, absolutely. But of course, I would. Like I love this. I was like, Oh, isn't it called a hinge like yeah, I remember that. I feel really guilty that I remember that. But I would love this to be obviously more than just like, okay, Harry in between the two girls like I could I could also see if cool, like I you know what, like Chow I could, I could see all of them being together but I also could see it literally being Ginny as the hinge because Harry He realizes later on that like Ginny is the person he has more of a connection with Cho was definitely someone that like he had a young, you know, 14 year old crush on. It wasn't anything that was gonna go further than that. And then they both came to, you know a position of like maybe they did try all dating each other but then they realized like, you know, that's just not going to work for us and that's okay. But also totally down for a threesome between all of them. That just sounds great. Yeah, we've got jet Ginny's going to be pegging Harry and then that's just absolutely. Hands down. Like mother like daughter.

Like I'm gonna make a Deadpool reference here. But happy International Women's Day.

Love it.

Oh, it's. So I can also see Cho and Ginny being the closer of the three of the lot of them, because they're all going to need emotional support. And Harry is emotionally oblivious. Maybe he becomes better at that post war, arguably because he doesn't have to worry about his savior complex anymore. But I don't know. I think it will be difficult for Harry to switch that sort of blinkered mode off. So chose going to need support. Jenny's going to need support, and they're going to need it in a more mature fashion, then, oh, I'm randomly experiencing quibbling sensation in my stomach. I don't know what this means. I'm emotionally illiterate. Yeah, no. So. So I honestly think that this is an opportunity for the both of them to grow together. Now we've done a bit of character exploration of Ginny in the Linny episode. But what is I suppose, as much of a hindrance to chose character, as it is an asset is that we don't really know very much about Joe, as it is, we there's stuff that we see is only ever from Harry's perspective. And she's only really there in books four and five, and like mentioned in Book Three. So I'm most interested in, like, have you ever read any Cho fanfiction? That you've thought this is a really interesting characterization of Joe to take away? Or did it make you look at the character in a particular light that you hadn't envisaged before?

I don't know, I can't say that I have really read much Cho and which that comes down to I think, like, that's been brought up a lot like, a lot of the female like POC characters, like don't get a lot of representation outside of use just like a kink device, which is you know, that's, you know, like, it's just I think like someone brought in, you know, wanted to discuss some like Parvati or the Patel twins or things like that. And it's just like, it'll go on and on as far as like used in like, a kink sense when it's not actual doing character development, which is why I love like the fact that the HP Safak server and community hat was created I think maybe a year a couple years ago for them to start really focusing on the female characters and growing them and building stories beyond that beyond just porn for porn sake, which is which is what they deserve sort of thing. So I as far as I just haven't really come across it and she's never really been a side character in any of the, you know, type of stories that I've read, especially when I read so much dreary, like I don't know that I don't know, she just she she didn't serve any sort of purpose and a lot of the stories that I've I've read but I did end up what was it there was there was some sort of like character prompt something where it was like Marietta hedge comb was the the prompted character to like develop, you know, some sort of like headcanon or story off of and I ended up doing a like a Harun show drabble focusing that was the first time that I probably sat down and thought about Cho as a character. And then also Marietta who we know even like less about besides just being the friend who didn't want to be at Dumbledore xRB in general, and ended up with sneak on her face like so just being able to get you know, like to really sit down and accept and understand that she was hurting in a way that no one was able to be there for her and help her you know, process was just, you know, it's just really like hard to deal with with some of those. So it would be really nice to be able to read her in some sort of like positive uplifting right, I agree like circumstance. So If anyone does have really awesome, show centric, or at least like, as a as a hefty side character in a story, definitely let us know. Because that would be great like any of these smaller characters that don't aren't given, you know, the time of day that they deserve, please, you know, send them our way, because that's we would love to explore more than just the biggies that we all know and see and read about all the time.

Yeah, because I was thinking as you were talking about the fact that Chol doesn't really serve a purpose in Drarry, fics. And I thought, you know, we would never say that about Hermione, even in fanfiction, we would never say that about Minerva, we'd never say that about Mali, you know, all of these characters can, even if they're in it for two lines, or whatever it is, serve a purpose for the narrative. They can do that. So what is it about characters like Cho, or Marietta? Want to talk about that? What is it about these marginalized women that people just have a problem with? Well, maybe not even have a problem with right writing for these characters? Why aren't they more popular? Is it just because we've internalized this misogynistic reading of CHO, as a, you know, a weepy clingy snore of a character when that's not what she is, you know, her character is a as a flawed character who's marred by tragedy, and having a human reaction to that tragedy over the period of, say, a year and a half. And beyond that, we hear nothing about her. And I almost it's such a missed opportunity for character development, that that doesn't happen in canon. We don't hear about show after she, she's not useful to hurry anymore, which says something about the perspective of the narrative. And, and so, like, because, you know, everybody listening to this podcast will know that nobody, even a character is just an object, you know, like a narrative device to fuel a story. I mean, yes, the, if you want to get technical about it, you know, every word is a contrivance and language is inherently patriarchal, we can go down that rabbit hole. But what I what I mean to say is that if you accept that characters are conscious distillations of human aspects of ourselves, then aren't we doing the human aspect of CHO? A huge disservice by going, Oh, she's not useful anymore, we will have to think about it. Mm hmm.

Oh, absolutely. And I think a big part of it, that also comes into, you know, with people writing more representations of like, you know, like trans characters, or POC characters or things like that. Some, you know, especially a lot of like, white individuals or right creators, white creators or things like that, feel a sense of hesitancy when dealing with characters that are different than themselves. But that's what what I love about all these different fandom communities is like, there's so many people of different walks of life that are willing to like even hold your hand through writing something that you alternatively might have been, by lack of a better way to describe it, like afraid of writing because you don't want to offend anyone, right? And it's understandable to feel that way. And a lot of times, like even with like me writing different characters, it takes talking to you know, various people and and letting them tell you, we want representation, don't be afraid, you know, if you're if you're worried about it, that's what sensitivity readers are for. That's why you reach out to people to be like, is this approach like, am I being stereotypical and doing a disservice to the community or like an if I am How can I not write that way or not represent things that way? Yeah. So I think that that has changed in more modern years, but I think that the reason why it's maybe like early fanfiction early fandom, a lot of those characters were ignored and dismissed was because people were like, afraid or like worried about writing these characters, or just use them exactly how they were in the books, and literally just had clingy sniffily sad show you know, as being the the character that Harry liked that one time you know, sort of thing. So I think that we definitely get way more variety and exploration in different character journeys that we didn't otherwise have today, which is wonderful, especially in with recent events with you know, J K and things like that. It definitely put a fuel behind those in fandom who want to stay in fandom and want To support the people that feel like their voices are being suppressed in silence. So I think it's so important that we are exploring these other characters. So definitely any of these side characters like this show, especially if you know works that exist, like we would love to know about them and promote them, if you have head cannons or ideas or even like if you're not even a writer, but you're like, when I think of Joe, I think that like different other maybe there's meta explorations of this character beyond, you know, what, what did you had mentioned, and there's just, there's hope moving forward. There's a lot more out there that I think that then there used to be, but also we have the resources now of all these people interacting with one another and wanting to support one another. But also in the tumultuous, tumultuous environment of there are plenty of people who are easily offended and are just not going to be on your side no matter what you do, right, which is really sad also. So it's like finding the right people to make you feel like you can and should explore characters that otherwise wouldn't. But then there's always going to be people that say, You have no right to speak for these people, which is sad, because that's like, okay, so you want me to write Yeah, all white characters. Cool. That sounds fantastic. Or everyone is heterosexual? Yeah,

that doesn't sound problematic at all. You can't make

everyone happy. But you can definitely know your audience and know that there are people who want that content from you. And just do about it in a way that you know, that you have, you have the right mindset behind why you're writing these characters versus just for the sake of you know, especially like the kinky stuff, like just like, oh, we have this show the Asian character involved in this or, you know, the Patel Patel twins being, you know, Indian descent of like, oh, exotic, like, right, yeah, these characters, sexualized versus actually strong, important female characters, that happens to be of other nationalities and have culture behind them that's important, and should be explored as more than what we get a lot of the time,

right. And you got the opposite, actually, with disability narratives, like if disabilities are written about, they're written about in a totally asexual way. Like, the assumption is that no character or person with a disability has a sexual motive whatsoever, or, or sex drive or whatever. And I would love to see more disability representation in fic. It's happening there are there is some, it's great that it's happening now. But speaking as a person living with a physical disability, I just want to say that if you want to write that, I'm not going to be the person telling you, oh, you can't speak for me, you know, if you want to, if you want to share what you're writing with me, great, but I will never come down hard on you for having a great idea about, oh, what if this character was a wheelchair user? And they had, like, how does a wheelchair user get round Hogwarts? Like, how can they deal with the like, enchanted staircases, to their chairs just fly, like, like, I want to know, like, I want to, I want to know what you think I'm not going to be, I don't understand the culture that says, oh, you can't write this. Because, you know, I might get offended, you know, living in a constant state of readiness to be offended by something that someone may or may not bring to you is a very, that's a reaction that sort of coming from trauma and PTSD and other things. And I'm not saying that I don't understand where that comes from. But what I'm saying is, you know, maybe give people the space and the freedom to breathe a little bit with the material, and especially if they're nervous about writing characters, or chips that they wouldn't usually be used to writing. I think we should be encouraging people more actually, to think outside of their character comfort zones, and, and, you know, comfortable bubbles of, okay, well, I'm used to writing run, for instance, so I'll, I'll ship run with Eloise midget and and we'll you know, we'll be done with it. You know what I mean? That there's a certain amount of there are any and all combinations of weird and wonderful things that you can do in this universe. I also think, by the way that potentially, like having a disability narrative woven into a Jenny and Cho pairing be really cool to read. I mean, maybe one of them sustained some sort of Quidditch injury that isn't easily overcome. And then it becomes that it becomes a lot more about the the sort of caring, nurturing aspect of their relationship of finding out why they are attracted to each other on more than just a physical level. And I want to sashay into personal experience here shamelessly for for a little bit. I'm a 34 year old male. And I only recently for the very first time, I got to experience someone offering to lift me onto my sofa, so that we could watch movies together. And I didn't realize how much I needed it in my life. I didn't, I didn't know how much I needed that. But that was so I've been dating on and off now for 1011 years ish. That's the first time that's ever happened to me.

I've crying. That's just the cute I'm sorry. I'm just picturing you being picked up bridal style. And it is literally the cutest thing I've ever seen. That's so sweet, though, was very cute. It was very cute. Like, why wouldn't someone want to do that to cuddle with you on the couch? Or watch a movie? I mean, it's like, it's like a chair? It's a chair? What does it matter? You know, like, it's just I can sit with someone in this one versus like, obviously, I mean, hey, you know what, maybe you like people sitting on your lap, not gonna?

Well, I just think, I think the chairs an interesting thing to talk about, because I think it visually represents the kind of barrier that you're talking about where people just aren't sure, you know, anybody that that knows me knows, you can talk to me about anything to do with my disability. And I'm not going to bat an eyelid like it takes a lot to offend me or, you know, knock me off kilter, it takes a lot. So, like, absolutely asked me the questions, find stuff out, you know, I'm naturally curious. So I respect that in other people. But I understand that not everybody is the same, by the way that that's, you know, this isn't me saying, Go and lift up every wheelchair user, you know, not what I mean. What I mean to say is that, I definitely think it's those sometimes it's the little moments of intimacy that you have with somebody else that mean the most to you. And I absolutely see that in a Ginny Cho dynamic, I think, in a like, because they've both been through such a maelstrom of emotional difficulty, and trauma. And so to have quieter moments of tenderness and intimacy, and fluffiness, bring it back to the fluff. really speak to me, because obviously, you know, I'm now speaking from personal experience as well. It's what, what I like on a personal level, it's also what I would love to read for them. I think, obviously, you don't need to have any of these characters have a disability, but I think it adds a layer of vulnerability and complexity that would that otherwise wouldn't be there. And just as a like, as a disabled person, or person living with a disability terminology is weird. By the way, can I just say, the, the language around because even the language of disability is different in the US than it is in the UK, like, so one tends to prefer disabled person, one prefers person living with a disability, I tend to prefer to sidestep the whole issue and go wheelchair user, there we go, just just cuts out the middleman. But as whatever that person is. I just want to say I would love to see more representation of this sort of thing in fic. I think there are. I mean, there are, there are, I think in the UK, generally one in five people lives with some sort of disability. Now that's either physical or cognitive, or, you know, people with living living with mental health issues. And all of these things if we were to have more rounded characters, particularly in something like Harry Potter, where magic is possible, and all sorts of creativity are possible, and all sorts of weird and wonderful combos are possible. I mean, of course I want to read more about that. Like you can take it in any direction. You can be mega fluffy. You can be mega angsty, you can even have wheelchair using ghosts, like why wouldn't you? Why would you not?

So with all that talking that you had, I had two visuals that popped in my head through all of that first when you were talking about oh, how would someone get around at Hogwarts? I'm literally picturing someone sitting on petunias putting

is perfect. Can anybody drove me that's

probably Juliana,

Juliana, if you're listening and you're feeling adventuresome. If you could draw me somebody floating on GDP is going up

second little

room, like a magical cake room but

still with the smoke beneath it like in the movies like just like hovering. Oh my gosh that'd be so then my second visual was touched our chat touch starves Nathan and his loveseat sized wheelchair, so that you always have an open spot literally just like as like this subtle invitation. Oh, you're just literally going everywhere. Like, why is this chair like that? And it's just like literally anybody literally, I don't care who just someone said.

Okay, this is literally who I am as a person. X ray most so yes, I need this. Why loveseats I use wheelchairs in the wind?

You know what, honestly, though, that would actually be a really sweet thing to own. If you had like a, you know, even someone fully like non disabled significant others, just the fact it's like, we're going to go for a stroll in the park, but we're going to take our, like tandem wheelchair, like pedaling the tandem bicycle, but literally, like, we're just gonna just scoot our way through the park sitting together kind of like in a little buggy, but it's like, I mean, that should exist, right? Like, just like any sort of,

I definitely think it should oh my gosh,

like, there's plenty of other modes of transportation or things where it's meant for multiple people like, yeah, hell that should be, that should be the same.

I mean, I've joked in the past that I need a sidecar for the wheelchair and then one of those can wear like 1940s goggles, you know, the thing. Like, one of us can wear like a John T scarf that billows in the wind, like, so I have given this a fair bit of thought, My mind wanders some times, I can't help it. But But yes, now I need like a tandem wheelchair, a loveseat sized wheelchair. I think it kind of like I don't want to get too serious into down on the mood. But it like wheelchairs are never designed for the people who actually use them in mind. It's all very, you know, I'm sure that they're very clever people very capable engineers, but But it's never designed with the user experience in mind, which makes me think of how a broomsticks designed in Harry Potter. So if Cho were a broomstick engineer, and managed to somehow gift Ginny with an extra special magical broomstick that whenever she thought of, of CHO, like a little image of cello or pod, or there was a little like she you know, that I saw, I'm thinking of like the illuminator in this instance, you know, like the ball of light thing. What if there was a little arc that that came out of the sort of the tip of the broom, and it made a little beam to wherever Chico was in the world. And so they'd never Oh, my gosh, that's so that you they'd never be. So it was like so, you know, wherever I am in the world off doing whatever, you'll always be able to find me like, I think that would be really cute.

Mm hmm. Oh, I love that so much. All right. Well, is there any so is there anything else regarding these two guys that you were thinking about? Talking about? Well,

I'm kind of thinking that now we need to do a show in Marietta bonus episode. Yes,

definitely.

The other than that? No, not really. I think we sort of covered everything. Unless you want to say anything else.

No, I definitely. Yeah, I think we got into a lot of the different stuff that I wanted to cover. And I'm I'm definitely down for these two. I ship them honestly, I feel like I could ship Ginny with anybody really, I just I love Ginny a lot. But this definitely just talking about show and, and all those things like I really, I really loved chose character and the potential there. And like I'd said before, if you have any recommendations that are chose centric, I mean, it could anything from drabbles to super long stories or things like that, or even if you just have a prompt or headcanon or anything like that we always love getting you know, emails from you guys. And it's just it's always fun to pick everyone else's brains on what you think because obviously we know what we think because we repeat ourselves regardless.

We have three thoughts there in all of our episodes.

Exactly. They're just they're just literally shuffled around slightly in a different order. But you know, so we make it so that you can literally listen to any episode and you get every You need so you only need to listen to one episode and then you're good. Just kidding. Listen to all of our

like way to torpedo our podcasting career

No, I'd say they're all definitely all very different and very entertaining for very different. It's always unpredictable, the nonsense that's going to happen. Yeah,

it's like a simple true loaning prophecy. You don't know how it's going to quite work out. And it doesn't really make sense. But you're along for the ride now. Like, we know you're invested. So you'll come back for the next one. Anyway, I did just throw something off my desk. So maybe it's time to wind this up.

Oh, man. Well, I'm so glad we did another femslash episode. It was time for us to do that. And yeah, well, after wrapping this up, we're probably going to record a show Marietta bonus episode, which hopefully will we'll do that and then it might drop maybe in August, I think because the plan is right now based on when we're recording to drop our droop in or dreamless episode Draco and Remus Lupin, beginning of July on Patreon. So if you didn't know that, that was on Patreon and you wanted that, then definitely, you know, head over to Patreon and check out our tiers with bonus episodes. Because that was a lot of fun. Hopefully, this one will be a lot of fun. And we're definitely going to be doing more regular bonus episodes, which is exciting. So because we were really bad about that in the past.

Yeah. Though, it was because we were going so super long on episodes that, that we just didn't have any steam left. We were like, Yeah, we you know, after having done like, a two hour marathon on whatever it was, there's just no room left for anything else. So we've become better at rationing our energies, I think, and trying to get a little bit more on topic with what we actually want to say, as opposed to just rambling. Although I did a fair bit of that in this episode, which I also kind of judged myself for. But you know, who I am by now. So if you if you if you know me and love me, I feel like you'll still love this episode. Oh my god, we just do another Wolfstar Please don't tell me I mess this up as badly as the rest of

world. No, I don't think so. I think it was all

okay, all right. I you know, every episode, I think I'm getting better. I like get more confident the patterns better. We have such a good report. And then I'm just like, but wait, did we actually talk about the ship? People gonna flame it? Why did you talk individually about genuine show for the entire episode? There was nothing complete here.

And not together. Yeah, exactly. So I think we did pretty good. So yeah, so I'm excited to see what we do next time. Because like we've done we decided that we were gonna do this ship literally two minutes before we hit.

You know, it's it's my favorite time because one of us goes, you literally messaged me. And you said, Should we do a femslash? Ship or a partnership? No, it's like, yeah, femslash. But who and I had two suggestions. I'm not going to tell you what they were because I think the other one that we talked about, might become a future episode as well. But we're excited about it. And let's just say it's a continuation of a theme from quite a while ago. A spin off from it, if you will. I am super excited to talk about that one. That's gonna be a lot of fun.

Oh, for sure. That'll be great. So yeah, so enjoy that. When that happens in the future so

quickly, wobbly. timey, by me. Nonsense. It's probably you know, by the time you're listening to this in 2025. It'll all be there anyway.

It'll be there. Exactly. Insert actual name of said ship here and the episode number.

Wow, can you believe in 2025? No, I'm not going to do weird outside of space and time. No. Okay.

We've talked about how bad at maths we are.

Yeah. Objectively we are. I mean, it was my worst grade in school. I mean, I got my past and that was enough. I'd never want to look at maths again.

All right. Well, thank you as always for coming and listening to our nonsense. And yeah, and as any Jenny Cho content, show contents especially. We'd love to see it. So yeah, until next time, we cannot wait to ship with you again and have a wonderful rest of your week and we love you and your scene and we are You're allies and we want you to know that we're here for you and and all that like Nathan said earlier on so we love you guys and we'll see you late or love you see you soon bye