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Favorite human alert. It's weird and wild that we're at work right now because I feel like we're just with our best friends. So friends welcome back to this incredible Friday series, we are diving into the habits of an impactful fundraiser today we are diving in through the lens of the donor relations professional. And you know that we couldn't just bring one person on for this, we had to bring the Team Awesome into this conversation. We've got Lynne Wester here with the DRG group in the house. Alongside her work little brother, T Clay Buck, who is with TCB fundraising, and we've had them on the podcast, they've been back many times. And there's a reason, folks, not only are they the kindest, most generous human beings around who value aligned with us. But they're modern thinkers, they are saying the things that are on all of our minds, and they are shaking this sector up and the way that it needs to be shaken up. And so so excited to have them on. I would go more into your bios. But guys, I think people know you. And so we're going to link all that up in the show notes, because we're just so excited that you're here on the podcast. Welcome, guys. Welcome back for like the 25th time it feels like
we're so happy to be here. You said shaking up and I was thinking either a cosmopolitan or a milkshake? Do you need a milkshake Clay?
I do need a milkshake Lynne.
I just need a milkshake.
Well, you guys bring whatever into this house, this is a safe place. But Jon, we've been diving into this series, and we've looked at the different roles within a fundraising shop. And this series is really about how do we kind of just twist the lens a little how do we look at our role differently? How do we adapt to the way that the world is moving and growing and connecting? And we're gonna dive right into this first habit. And so I want to pitch this first one to you clay. And the first question is really about asking the right questions. And when you think about your really high performing donor relations professionals, what are the right questions that they should be asking themselves, and what we should really be trying to accomplish that to the bigger picture in our work,
I want to bring forward that perspective. That is, especially in my work. And in my history. Most of the nonprofits that I've been at, that I've worked at don't have the title donor relations. Right? That it's that it's it's, it's included in I mean, I've been database administrator was my title and donor relations was my job. So I just want to bring that forward and lay that out that you know, to everybody, that's that's tuning in. Hi. And thank you that, you know, when we talked about donor relations, wherever it lands, whether it's donor stewardship, whether whatever it is, the number one question that leaps to my mind is, what is the donor getting from their experience with us? Right? And we do a lot of work. And there's a lot of data, and why do people give And fundamentally, it all comes down to whether they gave because somebody asked them to whether they gave because they were at an auction and felt compelled to whether they get whatever reason they gave the reason the donor is gonna say they gave is because they care about the mission. That's why in every survey we see, right, I gave because I care about the mission, right? Because giving is about our higher ideal self. So when we're asking that question, what is the donor getting from this experience? And what is the donor getting from their giving? The answer needs to be helping the beneficiary. So what am I doing as a donor relations person to bridge that gap between the person who needs help, and the person who wants to help? Because no matter what situation the world is, in, no matter what philosophy of fundraising we're talking about, at the end of the day, there will always be people who need help. And there always be people who want to help. So if as a donor from the donor relations perspective, if we're asking ourselves, what is the donor is the donor fulfilling their values, their psychology, their intent, that's the bridge that that I am making. And then I think the second question, I'm going to paraphrase Henry now in for just a second. Here right now and that was a Catholic monk, theologian, philosopher, wrote an incredible book when he was asked to raise the money for his monastery. It's called a spirituality of fundraising. Regardless of your faith background, it should be on every fundraisers bookshelf, because what he came to through prayer and study and research and meditation was this definition of, of fundraising. But one of the things that Henry now is known for saying is, I'm not going to get it exactly right. Have I bought priests today? Have I shared joy today? Have I have I advanced justice today? And I would say that group of questions for any donor Republic donor relations professional, have I brought joy? Have I brought peace? Have I brought justice forward? In the work that I am doing with helping donors realize a vision? Have I brought that through in my work and helped the donor see it? And have I done it for me in my organization and my beneficiaries as well?
I mean, if you want to feel dignity and pride in your work, like what sintering questions, and I love that you let in with donor experience, too, because we got Lynne Wester, in the house, to me is like, donor experience is something that you have been teaching, and we've been learning from you for now more than a decade. And so I want to kick that question number two over to you, because we think about this sector of our business, like creating incredible donor experiences, what are three daily habits for success in this role in this donor relations role?
I actually think that those three daily habits for me boil down to categories almost. So one is living life with an attitude of gratitude. So every day making sure that I send gratitude to someone, whether it be a handwritten note, whether it be a text to someone, I love telling them, they're my sunflower, you know, whoever it is, every day, I remember to be grateful for something. And so I think that number one, the practice of gratitude, when we know it makes you live longer, we know it makes you get a boost of serotonin, or there's there's physical and metaphysical benefits to gratitude. But it also grounds you in that if you don't have an attitude of gratitude, then the work you're doing isn't as meaningful. You know, people choose to be generous, they choose to give to us. And I think we need to be grateful for the people that do choose to give. And sometimes in fundraising, we get caught up in the, it's never enough money. It's never enough. It's never enough. And we sometimes come from a scarcity mindset. And I like to instead, spend time praising those that have been generous, whether they're generous in my life, they're generous in my work. So number one, every day, make sure that you make a physical expression of gratitude, a note, an email, a zoom, video, attack, something that you are doing external of yourself to give gratitude. So that's the first one. The second one for me, I'm an Enneagram eight. So I'm a big champion of other people a defender. The second thing I do to live a great donor relations life is I'm looking for my unsung heroes, my unsung hero donors, or people in my organization that make things go. So a daily practice for me, is working on advocating for those folks. So for example, I'm a big advocate for loyal donors. loyal donors are the bedrock of our industry. And they often get overlooked because they don't maybe give large amounts. And so I am a fierce advocate for loyal donors. So finding someone who gives your organization that's not been championed, or someone that works in your organization that's not been champion, for example, maybe it's the person who processes gifts in your organization, or if you work on events, maybe it's the facilities person, but championing someone other than yourself is a daily practice that I work really hard to do. In my industry, I'm known as a matchmaker. So whenever somebody comes to me and says, We'd like to speak to you to speak at a conference, or we'd like you to help us, I say, What about helping this person? Or what about having this person instead, and try to put other people forward? So that's my second daily donor relations practice. And then my third one is being a proactive problem solver. I don't think we value this skill enough. In our industry, in the workplace, in life in general. We all have a lot of complaints. We all face a lot of challenges. But there is nothing better than someone who helps me solve a problem, or who thinks proactively about the problem, whether it's, Hey, do you need a milkshake? Or hey, let me help you out with that data pull that you seem to be frustrated over and being vulnerable. are on vulnerable enough as a human being to say, I do need some help. And I could use a hug or Hekia, I need a milkshake. All of those things lead to the practice of proactive problem solving. Instead of just accepting fix it, fix it. Right? So give gratitude, champion another human being, and fix a problem. If you did those three things every day, then your life, your work your world, your people. Wow, that those are three things that I try to do every day as a donor relations professional.
I don't know if you came for the tactics. But here's the hard work. I mean, really, and I said, heart, not hard. I mean, it's not lost on me that everything you just said there. Lynne was about being generous, generous to others, generous to yourselves. And I think that's really grounding. And when we pour ourselves into work with that level of intentionality, it's felt that's the authentic, vulnerable engagement that we're talking about. And I think that was so smart. And so one of the things I love about this series is the way that everything I think you're gonna say you don't say, at least with our guests, they come in here and just blow our minds in the best way. And so I'm excited to ask you this question. Because it has been a curveball, I think in every single Friday series, what is the relationship that you prioritize? What are the relationships that you prioritize in donor relations, because I'm sure the soothsayers of your are going to tell you to go to the top of the pyramid. But what's Lynn and clay gonna say, when
everybody thinks I'm gonna say, the biggest owner or the Vice President or the president, and I'm not, I'm gonna say I love a worker bee. I prioritize what I call the gatekeepers of the world. So growing up, my dad didn't have a lot. It's a long story. But he eventually became very successful and ran a fortune 100 company, and I had the privilege of going to work with him on the weekends. Yes, he went to work on the weekends, because that's what you do. And we were walking through one of his factories, they made potato chips and snack foods and Cheetos and Fritos, and Doritos, and all those things. And we walked into the plant early on a Saturday morning, and my dad stopped in his tracks with me holding my little hand, and he stopped and talked to a man named Leonard. And Leonard was the janitor or the cleaner of the plant. He came in overnight, and he worked from 11pm until like eight or nine in the morning, and that plant was spotless, and my dad had a five or 10 minute conversation with Leonard introduced me to where I tried to shake his hand and even though my feeble little arm couldn't read cheek, he grabbed it and said, Nice to meet your little lady and I met Leonard and on the way to my dad's fancy office way above the plant, I said to my dad, snidely because I was like eight or nine Dad, why did you talk to the janitor? You're like the boss. And my dad said, Let me tell you some I talked to the janitor for two reasons. Number one, I used to be the janitor. And don't you ever think you're better than somebody who cleans the floors. And number two, if you want to know about a company, if you want to know about an organization, ask the person that cleans the floors, they know everything. And I took that lesson and applied it to my work. You want to know about a nonprofit organization, ask the receptionist, you want to know about the Vice President, ask their administrative assistant, talk to the facilities, people talk to the gift processors, talk to the worker bees who don't get the glory who aren't ringing the fundraising Bell every day, talk to the person in research and data. Those are the people whose relationships I value the most. Because those are the people who do it for the hard work and the hard work. And I learned that lesson from my dad early on, that anybody can clean a floor anybody can be an executive, anybody can be the fancy person in the big office signing the documents, but it takes real gumption and guts to clean the bathrooms and to do the work that is the unsung hero of the organization. So I remember Leonard when letter dad my dad attended his funeral. Like it was a big deal in our house. And so you have to treat everybody everybody with respect and so I value the relationships of the unexpected.
I mean, I'm filling our core values and I'm just thinking like what a seminal moment I love when people take us back to their childhood because I'm so hyper analyzing my parenting skills in real time of like, am I creating these for my kids? But um, wow powerful and it does align with everything we teach like we're trying to build community around this. This is about getting to know people and their stories and it matters deeply matters. So okay, let's keep going here. We've got a little fun segment. This is like our favorite of the habits you series, we want y'all to walk us through some do this. Don't do that kind of ideas around donor relations. There's a lot of bad myths out there. There's a lot of tactics people think are smart. So I'm gonna start with clay, give us one, do this instead of this, this instead of that,
thank all your donors. Stop sending receipts and thank your donors. We get so wrapped up in, we get so wrapped up in the you know, we got to get the receipt out. Well, that takes time. And I'm talking about unsung heroes, let's champion our database administrators and the people that are entering the data, crunching all of that stuff, like, you know, and I'm sorry, I'm on a soapbox, I get so tired of hearing. Well, they're not fundraisers. Yeah, they are, you know, good luck retaining your donors. Good luck working with your donors without your prospect development, prospect research and database administrators, like bring them into the table because they they know more about your donors than you probably do. Anyway. Sorry, not to get off in your point. But go for it. Like we're states can come. donors don't need receipts right now, especially if it's like July, right? Then they're not filing taxes today. Give them a thank you letter, if you can get a thank you letter out the door. Dear Jon, thank you so much. We should hear the shout of joy that came up in the office when we opened the envelope with your gift. We're putting it to work right away. In the next few weeks, you'll get a receipt and all of that stuff. But we just wanted to tell you right now how wonderful and special you are. Boom, done. Get it out. Right. So thank you donors stop receipting them, do receipt them later on. But thank them right now.
I think for me it sequitur to that. thank your donors, and don't ask them for more money in the same breath. So I created a word called how to fast. And I was hoping to ask I was hosting a conference this week. And an attendee said but my organization does it and we get $100,000. In those envelopes, we put an envelope in every Thank you. And I said I am sorry, that that that has gotten you $100,000. But it's also killed your retention. So it's killing your long term strategy. And here's how I relate to it. You would never write a thank you note to to say to someone, your dear me, Mom, thank you so much for my cabbage patch doll. I will play with it. I will love it. I loved Christmas, but my birthday is coming up. And how about you get on that Rainbow Brite train grandma. You would never do it. You would never spend like a thank you note for your wedding present. And then inside, put your invitation to your baby shower and be like we're on the Pampers train.
Okay, Jon, you opened this door and you both open this door in bringing us back you knew this was going to happen? Because I'm going to add on to what Lynne said and do this. Don't do that stop measuring dollars in US dollars, help us hit the budget goal. But in that example and all due respect to that team, right we raise $100,000. But how many are you not renewing? That's what they're not looking at that context, right? Is the metric of yes, we're raising $100,000. But you didn't look at that mailing that retention and that group and go sure we raised $100,000, because we put an envelope, but we lost 250,000 from donors who never gave us again. So maybe my task is what's causing that. So stop measuring just total dollars. Do you know, forgive me if I've told you this story before? Do you know that trees rot from the ground up?
I did not.
Trees rot from the ground up. So if you are looking at a forest and you're in a watchtower or a building or on top of a mountain, and you're looking out and you see this green, lush, beautiful forest, right, that green canopy of trees, and it's just gorgeous and wonderful, right? And you think wow, what a beautiful forest. And then you go down to the forest floor. And what you find is there haven't been controlled burns. There haven't been any taking care of it. And it is swampy and it's moldy and literally their trees are rotting from the ground up. Right? You're looking at the top going wow, this gorgeous canopy of trees, but what you're not seeing is that without cultivation and care that forest is completely rotting and ultimately the canopy will die. That's what happens when we measure just dollars.
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I am stealing that metaphor. And then I'm gonna give the last do this, don't do that. Do not list your donors stop with the honor rolls and the list of names and the walls with names all over them. Call it, nobody gives a crap, you're always going to make a mistake. It's the worst donor relations practice in the world is a list of donors in your newsletter, and on a wall some like stop it. Instead, tell them what their money did. Holy crap. donors don't give a hoot about their name on a list. But they'll give a hoot if you don't tell them what their money did. So you can't do both
Well, can I just insert really quickly too, because whenever you do a donor list, there's $1 level at which you get on the wall. And it tells everybody below that level that they're not valued. So if we're going to talk about building inclusivity, and diversity, and diversifying funds, then we have to do away with with donor recognition walls. But but but our favorite big donor after that he wants that he needs to find,
you know what it tells an emerging donor population, we already have plenty of money, we don't need yours. We don't have rich people, we're good. So you know what, instead I'm going to tell the story of impact and stop listing names. And those nonprofits that understand that it's not about public recognition, it's instead about impact of, of the donor and their generosity. They win all day long and donor relations. So that is how we're going to chapter and verse that one.
And I know that is a hard conversation. For many I know that means walking away from money. But true philanthropists, people who are giving because they truly care when you come back and say, we have stopped naming things because of this, this and this. True philanthropists will understand they will believe they will carry forward you can also tell them how expensive it is to have to name things and how much work goes into it. And your true philanthropists that will really believe and if they gave because they want their name on a building, we'll sit down with him and work out something that would be meaningful, but we don't name buildings, we don't do walls, we don't do blah, lists. We don't do lists.
And if you make that decision, as an organization, I recommend that you put it on and blast it out from a PR perspective so that people understand who you are, what your values are about and guess what you will be people will be a magnet to that sort of philosophy. And so I want to go to the next one. And it's in I have a feeling this is a ticking time bomb. What are some KPIs that matter? And KPIs that don't matter? Lynne hit us with this one.
Number one, number one measure of success with donor relations program is retention first time donor retention, and overall donor retention. I don't care if you don't measure anything else. Now, Clay probably does. But first time donor retention, overall donor retention, if you are not keeping your donors, there's no point in fundraising.
Shout out to Sam le prod at Griffin fundraising, based out of Canada, who really taught me this. And I learned from this. And I now agree. Second gift conversion after retention rate, its second gift conversion, because retention rate tends to measure year over year. And I agree, right. But especially when we're talking about low and mid range, when we're talking about alumni when we're talking about community giving, it's that second gift conversion, that really tells us where our loyal donors are and where our potential loyal donors are. So when are they making that second gift? What is the timing look like? And how are they doing it? The other metric that I am absolutely obsessed with, which ties to second gift conversion is what I call consistent but not consecutive. And look at your you look at your donor relations program. Look at your giving program over time, five years, look at your donors over 10 years. And what you start to find is, and listen if I totally stole this away from you, I'm sorry, I apologize.
You could steal anything. You already stole my heart.
Awh.
The podcast. Thank you for that.
Yeah, we're making heart signs of each other because we adore each other. Look at your look at your donor giving over 10 years and what you find is you will find a group of donors 10% ish, who they give in one year. And then they take the next year off. And then in the third year they give like three times and then in the fourth year they give once and what you find over 10 years is they've given really consistently they just don't give every year like we want them to because it fits our bye Just goes. They're giving on their timetable they're giving on their emotional timetable, right? And what we find is that over 10 years, we have these loyal giving donors that I guarantee you, I guarantee you are out there walking around going, Yes, of course I support acting charities, that's who I am. That's what I do. And we have been treating them like excitement, right? But they're out there saying, I'm a supporter. Sidenote, if I could just a little plug, they love recurring giving offers, yes. Go back to them. And you say, Hey, Jon, I noticed that you have been giving for 10 years, you are wanting to run more loose, loyal and generous supporters. And on average, you're giving about $45 a time would you consider making that gift quarterly? That way? Right. And they just they they go for it? Because that's who they think they are? Anyway, I promise you, they're in there.
I've got a metric out of left field, and then we'll end this question. And it comes from some of the experts, myself and others already ready for this metric, hit us with layer one. And some of you are going to be like, what, how many times in a communication do you say you versus we, oh, if you're always we we in you need to be you, you you in donor communications, especially thank yous, thank yous.
When you're saying you, when you're talking to the donor, what you're doing is you're joining the donor with the us and we that as part of this community, right, you're bringing that donor into you, the organization that's fulfilling the mission, the beneficiary that is receiving the services that you provide, and you're making a donor a part of not dominant, not, not the superhero that solved everything, but a part of this whole, because that's what it takes. It takes us in the seats at the nonprofit at the university at the organization, it takes the beneficiary who is there for the mission that we're providing, and it takes the donor all of us together. And when you keep saying you to them, you're bringing them into that mix. So I'm 100% with you on that one.
I mean, in something that Lynne said before, that's always stuck with me is could you name your most loyal donors, because we all know our biggest donors in terms of dollars, but it's kind of a gut check to be like, are we even attuned to those kind of people that could just be flying under the radar. So really powerful conversation. I mean, y'all have a huge heart for this sector. And we just got to hang out at ADRP. There's a lot of professionals there that are looking to find support, find sustainability to their jobs, too. And I just think of like, how do you show up for yourself to take care of yourself in this work? What is a mental health, you know, habit or hack that you could share with this community today?
I'm gonna let Clay go first.
Because this is fresh of mine from for me, so let me own a little vulnerability. And being somewhat new to this, and it is the making time for you, it feels very selfish. It feels very hard. It feels like you're letting at least it did for me, you're letting folks down but carving out and making sacrosanct time for you, whatever that means. Right? Whether it's reading a book, walking a dog, just sitting on a sofa, taking a bath, or you know, going out with friends, whatever that means is finding time to step away, and be with yourself. Be because we need you. The sector needs you. And as cliche as it may sound, you cannot pour from an empty vessel. You can't.
For me, as many of you know, I struggle with an anxiety disorder. So I use self care, to I see a psychologist once a week and take care of myself professionally. But I also do some things personally. So five or six days a week, I take an hour out of my day and I go to a Pilates instructor privately and I turn over control for an hour. My life is spent making big decisions, small decisions, decisions for other people, decisions for me, and for an hour of my life. I get to not make any decisions. Put your foot here, put your arm there. Oh, that's a stretch. Oh, do this twice. Don't do this twice. I don't check an email. I don't think about work. I have that hour and it's just for me and I let go of control, which is very difficult. And I also am learning self care in terms of resting if I want to go and I need a nap I go take a nap. If I need to take a swim, I take a swim. I'm learning I don't always have the luxury of those things. But when I don't have the luxury to do those things is when I reach out, I'll send someone I care about a text message I'll and I think that that you know, and I have certain people, and they may not know it or not but that's my unconscious way of trying to escape my brain for five minutes. I love sending memes are funny things on the internet. I love watching, right like it's stupid, but those little breaks from the intensity of a day can really do it. And then again, my favorite thing in the world if I am really down. I know this sounds crazy, but I go shopping for other people. So I have a list of about five or 10 vendors that I'm obsessed with. And I will go on the vendor site and go Who needs something that they don't need. And farm girl flowers delivers clay, some sunflowers or munch pack will deliver some snacks. Or I'll send somebody a witty notebook or a t shirt. Like I don't need the stuff but I want to shop but I don't need anything. So I send it to other people. Because I know and I do that for an occasion, not for a reason just for SNGs. And because I think they need it. And I go shopping for other people. So generosity is fun to do.
You like live it.
Thanks so much for coming, guys.
Thanks so much for having us, Jon. We are so happy to be here. Thank you.
Cannot express how much joy you all bring into the world and how much we get from you. It's just a it's a thrill to be here. Great to talk about these topics. Thank you for providing this space. And this conversation. You guys are amazing.
Love you guys.
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