Ep 12: Up Black in Ireland: One man’s journey of how it feels to live and learn as a a person of colour in a country with a very young immigration history.

9:21AM Jun 16, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Tunji Solola

Keywords:

people

ireland

black

teachers

microaggressions

school

feel

kids

irish

lived

student

primary school

secondary school

immigrants

college

colour

mother

nigeria

programmes

talk

Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.

Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Olatunji Solola. Tunji was born in Nigeria and immigrated to Ireland with his mother, father and younger brother when he was five years old. His father is a social worker, and his mother is a nurse Tunji is now 21 years old, and a second year student at Maynooth University in the biotechnology programme. In addition to being a full time student, tonight, he works part time at TK Maxx. And in his spare time, he likes hanging out with his friends and keeping fit. I'm so happy to welcome you as a guest on my podcast today and to speak with you about living learning and growing up black in Ireland.

Thank you so much for having me. Just discuss everything kind of get into my whole experience of being black in Ireland.

Um, so we'll start right off here. You arrived here in Ireland with your family in 2005. Around 2005, just before starting primary school, can you tell us a little bit about what you remember about arriving in Ireland to live and what you were feeling and experiencing?

Well, um, yeah, from what I can remember, it was definitely an experience, I just remember it feeling very new. In a sense, it felt very different. And that's just kind of the atmosphere of just being in a different country in general after being used to something else. So being there, I just remember, I just remember, like, feeling very new. I'm, like, kind of getting used to my surroundings. And then and then just to go on. But then starting school was a whole different story school was, was interesting to say the least, I probably say me myself, I probably had some behavioural issues, starting off at such a young age because of having to change and like, you know, a whole new environment be surrounded by kids, I don't know. So it was it was an adjustment, but I eventually did adjust.

And, you know, that's, that's actually a really great observation to make, even at that very early age that, you know, it would have probably come as, as much of a shock to you, you know, coming to a whole new country with new cultures and, and new people look, you know, new ways of looking at things, but trying to understand those at five years old at the tender age of five, but then also, you know, I'm sure having other people back in 2005, looking at you, uh, you know, oddly as well, in your neighbourhood in your community. Um, and I do want to get definitely more into, you know, sort of the educational piece and in what you experienced them, you know, as you went through schooling, but first, I wanted to ask you, now that you're a grown man, you know, do you identify how do you how do you identify yourself? Do you identify more as a Nigerian living in Ireland or a black Irishman or something else? And, and why?

Um, that's a that's an interesting one, because I don't really put much thought into kind of identifying myself because then I feel like once I start being like, I'm a black, I like I'm a black Irish or I'm Nigerian. I feel like it kind of puts me in a box if that if that makes any sense. So like, if like, if someone they just asked me like, what, how would I describe myself? I'll just say I'm black. Like, I don't define myself with black Irish, Nigerian, African I wish I would just say in black, originally from Nigeria.

And you you've, I mean, really, you've lived here in Ireland, longer than you have In Nigeria, um, and so that was one of the reasons why I was asking you that that question was because, you know, you've been here in Ireland, you know, do you consider yourself? Do you consider yourself Irish?

Um, definitely, I do have an Irish passport. So I would consider myself Irish. But, um, yeah, like I would, I would consider myself Irish. But, you know, I still have a lot of love for Nigeria from my home. So, like, in a sense, I would just, I would probably consider myself Nigerian first, then Irish.

Okay, that makes sense. And it's good that you, you know that you have the ability and the desire to want to embrace both cultures, which me coming from an American perspective, that is what a lot of immigrants you know, people who or second generation, you know, people that come from, have come from other countries in the past. And that's actually from the American perspective, how they would, you know, identify themselves or relate themselves as I'm, you know, I'm Asian American, or I'm, you know, African American, and, and, you know, over the years, and that culture, you know, it would be that way, but because immigration is such sort of a very new, you know, relatively new element here in Ireland. You know, it's just very interesting to hear how immigrants would consider themselves here. So, I want to talk a little bit about I want to kind of get sort of the elephant out of into the the elephant that's in the room, and want to get it out there. So that we can have these conversations as we go through the rest of our questions in our, in our conversation together. So I want to talk about micro aggressions, and I just want to explain for the listeners, you know, what microaggressions are, and then ask you a quick question on that. And then we're going to talk a little bit about othering. And I'm going to ask you a question about that. And then we'll get into the bits and pieces of your, your own lived experiences. Okay. So microaggressions are, you know, those everyday verbal nonverbal and environmental slights, or snubs, or insults that, that people get whether they're whether somebody intends to do them, or whether they're done unintentionally. They often sort of communicate hostile, derogatory or negative messages to the other person. And they target people based solely upon their marginalised group membership. So can you tell me about racism, and that you have experienced growing up in the community that you've lived?

Yeah, um, you know, from an early age, I wasn't too aware of it. And I didn't pay attention to it that much. wasn't until I got into my teen years, that I started to look back and realise, oh, that was a microaggression or all that felt a bit now felt a bit wrong. So I'm just to give you like, an example of a story. Um, so when I was around, I would maybe say, eight or seven of our member, my house was raided by Garda because apparently began an anonymous tip, and that we were doing something illegal. But the whole situation now looking back and feels that it feels like a microaggression. Because I do remember, we were the only black family on that whole street. So for someone to give the guy a tip that we're doing something illegal, felt very strange, especially since it was a single mother with two kids that were nine and seven at the time. So I don't I don't know how many single mothers with two kids, you know, that are, you know, dealing drugs or doing something illegal. Yeah, especially at that time when my mother when we all didn't have Irish passports as well. Yeah, that whole situation, just feel just felt looking back and it felt like a microaggression. And especially how theGardai handled it as well. You know, my mother tried, she called and she asked, you know, why did they do this? Because, like, they left our house in a complete mess.

So they did it when you weren't home. They went in and did this. Nobody was home.

Yeah. So like when we came back to our house, our doors wide open, and we were like, Oh, we assume that we had like the house had been broken into. But upon investigation, we found, you know, rice buys had been slashed. Waters had been turned upside down. windows were broken. So we so my mother obviously realised that it wasn't it wasn't a burglary. There's something more here and then she got in contact with the guide and explained that it was a raid, because the because there were suspicious of you know, things going on in the house.

So they didn't actually even have the decency to like, leave a note or to contact you or leave something in something. Sorry.

Yeah, it Yeah, they left a note with a number. But he didn't explain anything. You know, he just didn't know what it was they explained that they were guardi. And he left a note with a number. Yeah. And my mother followed up on it.

Wow. And I am so sorry, that that that had to happen, you know, that that happened to your family, that it's just, uh, you know, it's it's shameful, it's just disgraceful that you know, that you would be left that way, especially to come home and feel like, oh, my goodness, we've been broken into, you know, you actually feel like you've been violated in some criminal way. But when in reality, you had been violated in a non criminal way that felt a criminal way, if you if you get what I'm saying. I know that you're probably also familiar with the concept of othering. And it's a little bit different than micro aggressions, because othering refers to the processes like whereby individuals or groups of people actually attributed, attribute negative characteristics to other individuals or groups of people and set them apart as representing that which is opposite of them. The thing about othering is that it's not about liking or disliking somebody, it's really based on that conscious or, or, again, unconscious assumption that certain identified groups pose a threat to the favourite group. And it's largely driven by politicians by media, we see it a lot on Twitter, and, you know, in the news, you know, areas and on social media, as opposed to personal contact. And here's the interesting thing that overwhelmingly, people don't know, the other people that they're othering against. So what are your thoughts and experiences of this specifically?

Yeah, well, I didn't feel any, I didn't feel othering in primary school, because the primary school that I went to happen to be in a very diverse areas in Blanchardstown, part of Blanchardstown, so there were a lot of different ethnicities, a lot of people from different countries, so I never felt like an other. It wasn't until I moved when I was around 11. And I moved to an area called Finglas, in northern Dublin. And I remember going from, like, I say, the school of like, 50%, foreigners and 50% Irish, to a school of about 5 10 percent Irish. And, you know, you just like, not to put anybody to blame, but instantly you feel you feel different. You know, I mean, you feel as you like, was at that time, then began to be conscious of being a minority. Because you know, as a child, you kind of live in your own little world, your own little bubble, of like, you only know the people around you. And, you know, if the people around me are like this, everybody else must be like this, you know, I thought everybody else was like, everywhere else in Ireland was 50% Irish and 50% foreigners. And then I get to the new school. And I remember my specific class, there was yet to two black kids, we had another man or another kid. So we were the only two in our class and in the other class, so. So I came in sixth class, if you understand what sixth class is like, so that finally your primary school, so I went into finding your primary school. And so in the whole of the sixth class, so about 70 to 60 70 students, there was three black kids three black kids and one mixed race. So instantly, I began to be conscious of being a minority, specifically around that time.

Yeah, and I went to school way, way, way, aeons ago, when I was in high school, which would be post Primary School for you here. And I was I lived in a very rural community in upstate New York, and there were only two black students in our whole entire school. So that would be nine through 12th grade. So for years, you know, of schooling there, the black family that lived there, that that were the two boys that were in the school, that you know, they live in Penn Yan, you know, their whole lives. And, but yeah, it was it was a it almost felt like, you know, looking back on it from again, my lived experience, almost as if the black person was that was a novelty. Having, you know, I can't think of a better you know, a nicer word to say, but it was almost like, you know, oh, the token black family in the community or you know, I'm sure you know what I'm saying

That that it's funny you say that because you know even for you back when you were in, in high school, as we're just explaining, which is a few, which was a few years ago in New York somewhere that's pretty diverse. The one so as I was explaining with primary school, when I went into secondary school, it was even worse secondary school was when I really got to understand it, because when I went to the secondary school, so the kid I was telling you about those in my class, so we went to the same secondary school. And when we got to our secondary school, we were the only two kids we were only two black kids, in the entire school of about almost 400 kids. And I think maybe like 10 foreigners, like people that weren't black. So as soon as soon as I got to that school, the token, the token feeling, you know, I mean, I began to, I began to really notice it, you know, and, you know, certain kids would there was one of three responses, right? So it would be, so a lot of these kids have never had a black person in their whole Primary School in growing up. So it was one of three responses, there was kids that wanted to be your friend, because they just want to be your friend, they thought you were a cool person. Kids that treated you differently. And kids that treated you as a token, so kids wanting to be your friend, simply because of the fact they can be like, I have a black friend. Or, and kind of, you know, wouldn't it be funny if I had a friend that was black, you know, I mean, so that that was one of the three responses I really noticed when I got into secondary school.

And then this was the treatment of, of yourself by by students or, or just sort of the interaction by students and I and I'm sure you're going to tell me some more stories as well. But again, from my own experience, just because it's my way of sort of setting myself up to understand you know, where you're coming from, as well. But a colleague of mine, so a teaching colleague, during a small group teacher meeting was discussing an interaction with a student of his, and he referred to him in hushed tones, as you know, the black fella. And I immediately thought, why are you whispering? You know, Why say it? Like, it's something sinister there, that there's something sinister about the colour of the student's skin? And it immediately infuriated me. Um, it, you know, because why does a discussion about a student any student at it, but in this case, have to include the students school skin colour? And I started really to question my colleague, which is, again, another thing that you know, that you probably have seen an experience, but I started questioning my colleague, but I was quickly silenced by a senior colleague that was in that same group meeting. And, you know, this actually has happened to me a lot in professional circles, when I actually tried to openly, you know, discuss difficult conversations in professional circles. And, but but that whole idea of dismissive, dismissing me or shushing me that the attitude like should Let's not talk about it, let's pretend that that didn't just get sad, or that doesn't, didn't happen. And the thing that bothers me the most is that doesn't make it go away. In fact, you know, what actually does is it gives the impression that what he said is okay, and what you know, and it's never okay. And so I'm interested in interested in your experiences over the school years, you know, did you you know, what types of experience Did you have with racism as a student in in your schools?

Yeah, as you were just explaining with the way your colleagues were going household, that was one of the things I really realised, because I'm, you know, Irish people. for the, for the most part, they because immigration is so new, they just don't know how to deal with other races. They don't understand microaggressions they don't understand, you know, how just just helped us deal with other ethnicities in general. For example, um, like, in secondary school, obviously, they had policies to stop bullying and racism, stuff like that. So, faculty or the teachers would treat every student the same as, as you should. But when you look deeper into that, there's certain things like, there's certain things that are different about people. Definitely ethnicity, if you get what I'm saying is, like, for example, I just think I would have appreciated if there was somebody who understood, who understood what it was like to be black. So like, you know, trying to, like speak to teachers or explain your experience with teacher and they just don't understand, like know because they're trying so hard to put up the, the I don't see colour type of thing, you know that they're trying so hard to maintain that, whether when it's like you should see colour, and seen as though I'm one of the only two black people in the school, you should see colour and you should be trying your best and makes that integrated well. And so like little things like school policies, so the school I went to had certain policies around hair, right, so you couldn't have your hair too short and cannot be a certain way. So, but it was clear that this policy was written from a white person's point of view, because because I go just to the white. So this policy doesn't work for me, because, for example, so the white kids would cut their hair. And so the policy was, you kind of have to short on the sides. So what is what could be here, and they put a certain way, and was still fashionable, he was so cool, because it was written from a white point of view, it just wasn't too out. There wasn't too crazy, still fit in the school policy. Whereas for me, fashionable hairstyles for black kids don't fit in that school's policy. So for the entire secondary school, so the entirety of secondary school, I had to have a certain haircut, but in the school guidelines that I didn't particularly want or wasn't particularly fashionable at the time. It's not a big issue. But it just goes to show the kind of sometimes this idea of I don't see colour or treat everybody the exact same. It doesn't work. Like I remember one time I decided, you know what, I don't care. I'm going to break school policy. And I went with a fashionable haircut. And suspended straight away

Really?!

yeah, came to came through the school doors. Because I remember, I was at the barbershop my dad the day beforehand. I was speaking to my dad about it. And my dad was like, that. I was like, do you think your school will have an issue with it? And I was like, I'm not sure. I don't think so. My dad said, You know what, it's fine. You can get the haircut. So I gone to school, the next day, I walked into the door sat in my first class, teachers just took me out instantly went to principal's office suspended for I think it was two days, then I came back, you know, there's nothing I could do I still have the haircut, but I've been suspended I missed two days of school for nothing.

Yeah, And then of course, it's a mark on your record, you know, as well. And then then suddenly, Tunji becomes a behaviour problem. You know, which, you know, obviously, you're not a behaviour problem. And obviously, you are a stellar student, you know, who has gone on and is, you know, working through your higher degree now, but anyway, and I think the thing that just floors me is that, you know, black hair is, like you were saying it's not the same as white hair, and, you know, expecting you to conform physically to the, the, the ways in which hair cuts are, you know, for white hair is, you know, is absurd to actually even think about not even to talk about that, what about the cultural, you know, what about any religious aspects that may have come into play with, you know, the way in which you keep your hair or the way in which some some school children that go to school, you know, why are we asking him people to culturally conform to the, the culture that they live in and not be able to continue to identify and embrace their own culture in the schools. That was a really a really good point that you made there. Um, do you feel in in secondary school? Do you feel that you were taken, actually in in school in general? Do you feel like you were taken seriously as a student?

I think, for the most part? Yes. I think the I like I was explaining before they teachers were trying their best, but they were looking at it from a point of point of view of treat everybody the same. So that didn't necessarily work. So I, I was always heard, I was always teachers never ignored me, but there was always more that there was more that they could have done, to make sure that I was integrated well, and I was, you know, I was enjoying my time in school.

That's really good to hear. Do you feel that your teachers made you feel included then that they didn't separate you but made you you know, made you feel like you were an inclusive part of your classes as you went through?

Yeah, absolutely. For the most part that is one thing I would give the teachers and principals, although they didn't do it from a viewpoint that I would have preferred, they tried the best. We walked in, and they never made me feel like I was, like, I was an other, they never excluded me in any way. That tried their absolute best.

You said they didn't do it in the way in which you would have liked them to do how would what would that have looked like?

So, um, you know, just teachers, trying harder to just understand that, you know, understand that to the rest of these kids, not much toward, so for them, but to the rest of these kids, I'm different. I'm a minority, I'm something that's different to them. So I just feel like what if they had just understood that, and kind of worked around that, it would have prevented a lot of issues that I had the certain behaviours of students, or would have, would have made my time in the school a lot smoother, if they're just like, you know, picked up on little things or been a bit more aware, like, like, for example, like, so if kids like had running jokes amongst themselves, or like, kids make comments about other kids, or they would say certain, you know, little racist things, or stuff like that. The teachers, you know, in their effort to try and treat everybody the same. They just saw that, as you know, kids are just being kids, they're messing with each other, they're just they're messing around they're being kids having fun. Rather than look at it, as you know, here's a few kids saying something about one kid that's different to the rest of the kids, maybe we should, stamp that out, maybe we should make sure that we will look into that. But they were kind of stuck in the whole thing of We have to treat everybody the same, they're probably just, you know, kidding around, Let's not make a big deal out of it. So I just feel like if there was someone or, or a way I could talk to, I could talk to someone. That just made sure that I felt, you know, seen and heard all the time, I felt like I was fully integrated. I thought that would have been a lot better.

Yeah. Like your voice wasn't being heard.

Yeah.

Which is a problem for a lot of students. But I can definitely see why more so than ever. It's not not something that's heard for, you know, minority students. How was cultural difference and race taught? I know, I'm taking you a couple years back now because you've been in and university for a while, but how is how was cultural difference in race taught represented in your schools?

It wasn't it wasn't, wasn't really taught. we had well being we had the subject. I think it was CSP. I can't remember. I think it was like civic, social, political education. I think that's what was called. And we would kind of skim over culture. Like, briefly. And then it was mostly about politics, and civic duty and how the world works. And briefly skim about skim and talk about culturalism and different types of cultures. Um, but yeah, but like, it wasn't really, that wasn't tied on. And then you had a religion class as well. So from the first three years of high school, because I know in America, you guys have middle school?

Yep.

Yes, over here. It's just one big secondary school is just one to six, everybody's in the same. So from one to three, we were taught religion. So and then in religion class, we were supposed to learn about world, world religions, different types of religions. But, you know, the school I went to was a Catholic school. So 80% was Catholic teachings. And then there are 20, we might talk about Judaism, we might talk about Hinduism. And that was it.

Yeah. So there was no representation. Other than maybe just to say this, you know, there's this there's this there's this, you know, yeah. Okay. But it was the Catholic way or, or the highway.

Yeah. And then and then. Yeah. And then in CSP as well. Like I said, there was a brief mentions of other cultures. And if we did talk about other countries, it would be from a, you know, third world point of view, it would be you know, For example, they will talk about Africa and Asia as just Africa or Asia. No, I mean, like, they will never talk about Europe as just Europe, they talk about Ireland, England, Belgium, if we're talking about Africa was just Africa, or Asia. So yeah,

yeah. So it wasn't about it. And I'm assuming that probably the discussions never actually really talked about the integration of cultures, but rather, this culture is in this country or this continent, and this culture would you would see here in this particular area, but not actually make any mention that the cultures are here, in in the communities and in your schools even? in which you live? Yeah. So you did touch on this earlier. But currently, they're they're actually only a very small I've done a little bit of digging and research, and there's only a very small handful of teachers of colour in schools in Ireland today. And, and, and by small, I mean, less than five that I'm aware of. So I think there was only four that I've been able to find names of, although, interestingly enough, also in Ireland, there's no formal record that's kept of teacher ethnicity. Big surprise.

And that goes back to the whole thing I was saying of, you're so stuck on treating everybody the same. We don't we really don't want to be caught out, like, you know, I feel like this. They're just so afraid of being called racist. Yeah. I mean, that, you know, they'll do stuff like not record. How many black people are in the teaching service, which is kind of wrong.

Yeah, it definitely, it definitely is. And there's actually a professor, that that his name is Dr. Rory McDaid, and he's out of Marino college. And he advocates for more migrant teachers and more teachers of colour, to be represented in schools. And he's got the migrant teacher project that he's working on now. And he says, and I'm quoting him here, he says that recruitment into teaching is very conservative. And that many school principals and boards of management when they're recruiting a teacher, are looking for someone who will fit in and not rattle things, or present a challenge, that, you know, he believes that this has to change, and that with diversity comes difference, that can be enriching. And of course, I completely agree with him, I follow him on Twitter, you know, I follow the migrant project, because also, interestingly enough, I would be considered a migrant teacher, because migrant teachers are, so they're not just people of colour, but they're also people that come from other countries that are struggling to actually be able to get permanent teaching contracts here to be able to teach in Ireland. So again, I you know, I really do agree with him, and also what he's advocating to do. But also the census that was five, the last census was five years ago, and the next one's coming up in 2022. It actually indicated that more than 125,000 people of colour identified themselves as Irish nationals. And so my question for you is growing up here in Ireland did, do you feel that there are role models for you? Why and why or why not?

In terms of role models that look like me no, because I'm, like, like we talked about earlier, immigration in Ireland wasn't really a thing until the 90s. So pretty much I am in it, like, you know, maybe just 10 years behind, but I am that first generation. So I would be the role model in the few years to come for the kids coming after me. So, so growing up, I didn't really have any role models that look like me that we're Irish. But hopefully, in the future, I would be one of those role models, because I came from that initial batch of immigrants, you know, that came through the early 2000s and early 90s, as well.

And, again, you did really well in school. And you know, you're in your second year in biotechnology, and what's going into the third year, third year? Yeah, about to start your third year. That's right, because I forget it's June now. So to what or to whom can you attribute your educational success to

Wow, my parents. Definitely. Yeah. My parents, big back huge on education. Yeah, they felt like because my, my mother, being a single mother in Ireland, when we were growing up, she went to DCU. So she went to college in Nigeria, graduated and then moved here. And then obviously, her credentials didn't transfer. So she had to retrain. So, you know, she went to college, again, with two kids, studied nursing, graduated, did a Master's, I think, a year or two years ago. And then my dad as well came here in 2013, or 2014, after not being able to travel the whole, so he didn't, he couldn't get the papers to come and join us until about 2013 2014. And between 2014 and 2021, he has become a social worker in that space of time. So yeah, my parents are big on education, like, for them, education is everything. Because they were lucky enough to have educa, to have education, because back then, when we were growing up the 80s, like areas of Nigeria, you know, education wasn't as big of a wasn't as big of a thing. So it was only certain kids from wealthier backgrounds, that got the chance to go to college. So my dad came from not wealthy but, he came from upper middle class background, and my mother came from a middle class background. So they were lucky enough, the parents pushed them to go to college at a time when not many who were going to college, so they made sure that that was instilled. in my brother and I, and we were kind of told, like, you know, college is the stuff you'd like, you know, you have to just do it, you have to try your best, you know, just do whatever you can to get to college.

And then that would be predominantly the case, would it not be of Nigerian immigrants that that come in here are highly educated, but they struggled to be able to get the jobs that they would have credentials for because of bureaucracy and being told that, you know, the your credentials don't translate.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so then you're here. And then what do you do you have to find work doing something?

Yeah.

Which perpetuates the stereotypes that are given now to, you know, immigrants, varying, you know, skin colours and nationalities that are given for people that, that, you know, want to immigrate here?

Yeah, that, definitely, I think, you know, my mother kind of really instilled that work ethic in me, because I remember, you know, from, as soon as she got here, her first job was, I think she was washing dishes as a first job. So washing dishes, she worked in retail, she did loads of little odd jobs here and there while she was in college, until she got into college, and eventually graduate and became a nurse. So I was really always had this mindset of keep working, you know, like, if you can do something go for it, just try your best.

And do you feel that, um, now that you're in university, do you feel that racism is less prevalent in higher education? Or do you experience it there too?

Um, in university, I think it is a lot less prevalent. Because I feel like, university is such a big place. Nobody really has time, you know, to be racist, in a sense, and, you know, you have, you have black people coming from everywhere, you know, I mean, you have black people from all parts of Dublin from even outside of Dublin, they're all you know, everybody's going to college. So you get a mixed with those different types. It's kind of like a, like a meeting point. You know, all the, all the minorities are kind of dispersed all around Dublin. As soon as college as soon as we get to college, it's like, everybody meets at college. And, you know, we all get to meet each other and, you know, talk about our experiences.

and, from your perspective, what are the biggest challenges that black people face here in Ireland?

Um, I think the biggest challenge will probably be being heard, because we have almost zero representation in government. I think we have a decent little bit of representation in government, but not a lot. So I think it would be being heard and just micro aggressions in In general, because, you know, it would really be only my generation. Well, yeah, my generation, have only really been the generation of Ireland to have grown up with immigrants that have seen immigrants, the whole way go, you know, you go to so I'm 21, when you go to 30 people that 30 I can guarantee almost 100 like 90% and had did not grow up with, with foreigners. So, so I think it's just, it's just the issue of it. Yeah, it's just microaggressions and little acts of racism, because a lot of Irish people still don't know that certain things are racist, or certain things make you feel uncomfortable. So I feel like, as more black people come as they probably will, will do. Yeah, the generation is coming up, after me, we'll definitely be more used to, they'll definitely be a lot more, a lot more accepted.

So what you're saying is that, you know, older people here in Ireland, are the ones this probably struggle more with. Yeah. immigrants and immigration. Yeah. And people of colour and all of that people of other nationalities. And so what do you think that we can do better, and what can be done to educate better in schools,

obviously, as we touched on before, I think representation is so so important, you know, try just trying your best to get more, you know, different types of faces in education. May, I'm sure you already have some programmes in place to help teachers deal with having minority students. But I feel like maybe they can add more to programmes to make the programmes a bit more, all encompassing, maybe making more hands on, you just make sure that teachers kind of really have an understanding of, you know, these are the most important years of these kids lives. So have making sure that they feel included making sure that they feel integrated all the way through that will be amazing for these kids. So I think those are really the two most important things.

And what about in society? What can be done to, you know, create a more inclusive society and to educate society members to be more inclusive? Um,

I think, if I'm going to be honest, I think Ireland is really trying, I think it's trying, cause, you know, especially in the last 10 years, they really try certain adverts, you know, on busses, on posters on TV than they really are trying, I just don't, I'm just not sure if the message is reaching as much as they think it is. So they are really trying, it's just that I'm not sure if the medium that you're using to convey the message is as effective as it could be.

And what do you plan to do? Like your future? So once you graduate from University, what's next in the cards for you?

Um, I think after I graduate, I'll probably immediately do my masters. And then beyond that, I've been thinking about, obviously, I love to, I'm studying biotechnology. So I'd love to be in the pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical industry and industry that I know it there isn't a lot of black people in Ireland, and I have considered it. I'm still not sure, but I have thought about it a little bit, maybe trying my hand at politics, but I'm not too sure yet. But I have thought about it a little bit. But you know, I don't want to I don't want to get too ahead of myself.

I'll be Watching you though, I'll be watching!

yeah, I have I have I have thought a lot.

So as we wrap up our discussion together, what's the primary message that you want to be heard? And that you hope that our listeners are going to take away from your conversation today?

Yes, so I think why I would want people to kind of consider is that, you know, foreigners in general, not even just black people need more of a platform in in Ireland to get their points across. Because a lot of the time for us to be taken seriously or get our point across or even be heard. has to go through the medium of an Irish person before the before. Our points are heard, rather than going directly from a minority to the audience. So I think Yeah, just in general trying as best as possible, to allow black people to minorities, to have a platform in Ireland.

Tunji, It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today too. And I'm gonna be so interested in in where you go from here. And I would love to see you be involved in politics in some way. I think you, you definitely have a very positive, you know, way of advocating for marginalised groups, minorities, foreigners, immigrate immigrants, you know, in general. And, you know, I think that you have a voice that needs to be heard as well. So, thank you for joining me today. Thank you for being part of the conversation. And I really wish you all the very best in the future. And I look forward to having you on again in the future, to see how you're getting on with your you know, with having your voice heard.

Of course, then thank you so much for having me. This has been a great opportunity. You we've been an important person, really let me get my message across. So just thank you so much for allowing me to have this platform.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts in education, and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.