THE BOOK OF LIFE - Joyful Song with Lesléa Newman & Susan Gal

11:58PM May 25, 2024

Speakers:

Heidi Rabinowitz

Sheryl Stahl

Heidi Rabinowitz

Leslea Newman

Susan Gal

Adam Gidwitz

Steve Sheinkin

Keywords:

book

story

people

susan

jewish

illustrate

illustrations

work

family

illustrator

author

mommies

joyful

picture

character

baby

neighborhood

write

mom

home

The most amazing thing is the way he's looking down at her, and the way she's looking up at him, Okay, I'm gonna get teary. You can just tell that these two human beings are bonded for life from this moment on.

Lesléa, to me when she wrote it, had so much love in it, I wanted to visually shows that love, because that's what it's all about, and what you were saying, Heidi, it's a dark world right now. And we need to show love in all shapes and sizes and families, and we need each other. So you have to communicate that in a picture book.

This is The Book of Life, a show about Jewish kidlit, mostly. I'm Heidi Rabinowitz. Before I tell you about today's interview, I want to let you know that I have compiled all of the Jewish American Heritage Month reading recommendations that I posted on social media every day during the month of May, and you can now find them at BookOfLifePodcast.com. This year, my theme for Jewish American Heritage Month was "friends and allies."

Okay, let's hear about today's interview. Joyful Song: A Naming Story is Lesléa Newman's newest picture book, and once again, she's paired up with the amazing Susan Gal. This dynamic duo brought us Here Is the World in 2014 and Welcoming Elijah in 2020. Their new 2024 book is about a baby naming at a synagogue and about the diverse and loving community that welcomes the little girl into the world. The two-mom family makes it a great book for Pride Month too. Here is the fun and uplifting conversation. I had with Lesléa and Susan. As always, links to their websites, a transcript, and extra goodies are BookOfLifePodcast.com.

Susan, welcome to The Book of Life, and Lesléa, welcome back to The Book of Life.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Great to be here again.

You have collaborated on a new picture book called Joyful Song. So please tell us, what is it about?

Joyful Song is a true celebration of a two-mom family and their son, Zachary. And it takes place on the first Shabbat of their new baby girl's life. And they are going to celebrate her naming ceremony.

And Lesléa, what inspired you to write a baby naming story?

I happened to be sitting in my synagogue one Shabbat and a two-mom family and their new baby girl were called to the bima to be blessed by the rabbi and to announce the baby girl's name to the community. And I'm old enough to remember when this would never have happened, when women weren't even allowed on the bima. So to see this out, proud, two-mom family being celebrated by the community, I just started to weep. It just was very clear to me that this would be a good subject for me to explore through a children's book.

As listeners may know, Lesléa, you are the author of the landmark book, Heather Has Two Mommies. You've come a long way since that original book. And in this story, it's kind of like it's come full circle. In this story, the family just has two mommies, no big deal. So can you talk about that change? How much of that is a literary choice? How much of that is a response to changes in society?

So you know, this is incidental inclusion. In Heather Has Two Mommies, it was the whole point of the book that Heather had two moms. That book, some people even called didactic, that has a message. I've been accused of having an agenda. The agenda of the book is: the most important thing about a family is that all the people in it love each other. So in this book, nothing like that is said. But it's very clear, because the family is so joyfully celebrating this event. And I have to say that Susan's artwork captures that joy magnificently. So I agree that it's definitely a progression from the first book about a two-mom family. You know if I could criticize myself 35 years later, a little bit heavy handed message, to a book that happens to include a two-mom Jewish family.

Right, and then I guess that's also an update in that in Heather Has Two Mommies, they are not named as Jewish family.

That is correct.

And the family in Joyful Song is interracial. Again, different from Heather Has Two Mommies where both mommies were white. Was that an author choice or an illustrator choice to have an interracial couple here?

Yeah, I definitely say that was an illustrator choice. And I have to give a lot of credit to our art director Jacqueline Cote. When Arthur contacted me and said, Lesléa has this manuscript, and she would like you to illustrate it, I almost fell off my chair because I thought I would love to work with Lesléa again, and sent me the story. And then he said, who would you like to art direct? And Jacqueline was the art director for Welcoming Elijah. I went through several art directors, but she was the one at the final stage of the whole thing. And she really helped save that book. Because when the press proofs came back, the color was off and it was terrible. And she said, We can fix this, do you have a week, are you willing to work with me to do it? And we did it. And so we had a good conversation. And my first sketches, I said, I really want to make this an interracial couple. This is what I see in my community. And I want people to see families come in all different sizes, sexes, colors. And let's put it out there and see, see where it goes. I knew that Jacqueline really cared about the whole process of a book. And she was really influential in developing the characters, what they look like.

Oh, that's interesting. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Well, my first sketches, I drew them, and she looked at them... and she's a few decades younger than I... and she said, This is really great. But these kind of look like Eileen Fisher mommies. You know, let's kind of make it a little more modern, jazz it up a bit. She goes, I'm in touch with Instagram and all the cool stuff that's out there. So I'll send you a bunch of ideas. And that's how the mommies look so hip and cool, thanks to Jacqueline.

That's awesome. They do look very hip.

Thank you.

The moms are absolutely completely cool and hip. The same thing happened in Welcoming Elijah, we had people of many different races and body types. You know, it takes place at a seder, so there was a lot of room for showing a lot of diversity at that seder table.

In Joyful Song, all the characters was speaking roles, and even many who are just in the background, are minorities. So tell us about how you decided what types of representation to include. And this question is really for both of you.

I really wanted to show a very diverse neighborhood. I grew up in New York, surrounded by people of all cultures. And I really wanted to show that in this book. I was surprised in a delighted way, and this is one of the questions I have for Susan, is this California? Someone asked me if it was a tropical island, so I'm not sure where it is. But I was so delighted to see that these characters from different cultures were placed in this beautiful, lush environment.

That's funny, you said that because I knew Lesléa was from the East Coast. And so many books, when you talk about a neighborhood, they're very New York City centric. Well, only a small part of the population of our country lives in New York City. And my daughter lives in Brooklyn, and I'm very familiar with New York City. But I wanted to make this be my neighborhood too. And that it's also that there's two mommy families and mommies of mixed races and different people in other parts of the country other than just New York. I was born and raised in San Diego, California, and I lived in LA and now in the Bay Area, San Francisco, Berkeley. And it's a mixture of all three cities, the best of San Diego, the best of Pasadena, and the best of Berkeley. You could say it's like a California centric book, or you know, it's just, it's a neighborhood centric book. That's what it is, a community.

I wanted to ask about the setting. As a Floridian I always appreciate seeing palm trees normalized in illustrations, and seeing casual representation of settings that aren't the Northeast. So I'm happy to hear more about the neighborhood. And I also noticed that under the dust jacket, the case is decorated with illustrations of the neighborhood. So it almost seems like the neighborhood itself is a character in the story.

It kind of just became that way. When I take a manuscript, when I read it the first time, if my head fills with visuals, then I know that this is a book I really want to illustrate and that's the feeling I had when I read Lesléa's story. Like Joyful Song to me was sunlight and flowers and springtime, you know, rebirth, a new baby. I made it springtime and I wanted to somehow incorporate a rainbow at the end of the story. And talking with Jacqueline, she goes, That's didactic, don't put a rainbow in it because it's about two mommies. So I thought okay, put that aside. So I just kind of filled the book with more color. And as I walked around my neighborhood, these are the things that I saw in like what Lesléa pointed out, you know, Mrs. Fukumi is watering her roses. And I thought, well, that's not really that urban of a setting. It's more of a neighborhood type of setting. So I looked at the gardens in my neighborhood. Actually the house where the mommies live is right around the corner from me. So, used it as inspiration. So that's a good question. Yeah, the home and the setting, actually did become a character. Because if the place feels real to me, then I'll feel real to the reader. So that's really important.

Yeah, it looked like a beautifully walkable neighborhood, you don't see a lot of traffic, they're walking to temple, they're interacting with the neighbors. And there are a lot of people on bicycles and just looks like a really pleasant place to be.

The ideal neighborhood. The fact that they're walking to the synagogue, and they're gathering the people, it just seemed perfect just to focus on all the other little details you see in a community, like people walking dogs, people going to the grocery store, people exercising, right? So yeah, it definitely became a character in the story.

So you mentioned the gathering of friends on the way to the temple. So Lesléa, you sort of created almost a folktale like pattern, the way they build a crowd, and then the crowd shrinks again, on the way home, talk a little bit about that pattern that you created.

You know, there is a tradition that you don't reveal the baby's name until the big reveal at the synagogue. So the family meets one neighbor who wants to know the baby's name, first character joins what becomes a parade, really. And then the second and the third character. So it's this, you know, The House That Jack Built kind of cumulative effect. And then there's the big moment, my favorite moment in the book and my favorite illustration, which is Zachary and his sister, and the love that is so clearly shown between the two as he's holding her, just brought tears to my eyes. And so then we go from that and the big celebration, Mazel Tov, food of course, to going the other way, and the neighbors join the family on the way home, and then it's a countdown 3-2-1, and then the family is by themselves, and it just seemed a natural progression. I mean, when you walk to shul, you often meet friends and neighbors on the way and then they peel off on the way home.

Yeah, it creates a satisfying sense of, I guess, symmetry. Do you want to reveal the baby's name? Or would you rather leave that for people to discover as they read the book?

Absolutely not.

No spoilers!

Your listeners need to go get the book and they will see what the baby's name is. I can tell them the dogs' names if they would like.

Sure, What are the dogs' names?

They are Stella and Bella.

I thought those were cute names. Susan, you've illustrated three of Lesléa's books, Joyful Song, Welcoming Elijah, which was a Sydney Taylor Book Award winner. And also Here Is the World. And then you also illustrated Chana Stiefel's The Tower of Life, which was also a Sydney Taylor Book Award winner. You yourself are not Jewish, but you've helped to create so many absolutely glorious award winning Jewish books. So can you share your experience with this, of creating these Jewish books?

Well, the first Jewish book I did was Here Is the World and I told my agent, I'm not Jewish, is that okay? Does the author know this? And she said, Well, your agent's Jewish, it's okay. And I said, No, no, no, I'm, I want to make sure because I want to get this right. And she said, it's not a problem. And that, to me was so freeing. My best friend growing up was Jewish, so I was familiar with a lot of the customs and traditions. I feel that it's a rich opportunity for me to learn about another religion. I was raised Catholic. And there was actually one point as a child, that Easter fell on Passover. And my best friend's family invited me for the Passover Seder. And my mom said, Okay, well, you can go but let me call the priest just to make sure it's okay. If she called the priest and he said, No, it would not be good for her to go. Yeah, this is in the 60s. So that tells you how old I am. And my mom, you know, you do what you do, back then the priests had all the power, right. And she always regrets that. She said, That was a big mistake, I should have let you have gone and participated. That it was such a welcoming space for a neighbor to come and join, that stayed with me throughout my whole life. And so I feel that it's a space where there's inclusivity, and I'm feeling very honored to be considered for doing Jewish books. I learn a lot too. I really do my homework when I do books. I think that's very important. I owe that to the author. And I owe that to the reader to make it right.

Well, I mean, it's obvious that you've done your homework because these books are spot on, which is why they keep winning awards.

I just find that so interesting, Susan, because when I was growing up, my best friend was Catholic.

Oh my gosh!

And I was always invited to Christmas Eve. My parents allowed me to go and I helped her trim her tree. I was allowed to stay for dinner, which was the Feast of the Seven Fishes. They ate things we never ate, like crab, I mean, just very foreign foods to me, but the bottom line was, I could not go to midnight mass, which as a child I wanted to go to because I just wanted to stay up to midnight. And I thought it sounded really fun. But my parents drew the line there. So it's very interesting that you and I had these opposite yet parallel experiences.

I love how our lives are intersecting, Lesléa, this isn't brilliant, I love it. That's what's really cool. You can't understand someone unless you walk in their shoes a little bit. And exposing children to all types of faiths and all types of religions, helps breed diversity and empathy for other people that worship in a different way than you.

Exactly I couldn't agree more. So Susan, you've won two Sydney Taylor Book Awards. Lesléa, you have gotten gold, silver, and notable recognition for seven different books from the Sydney Taylor Book Award over the years. And in 2020, you received the Body of Work Award from the Sydney Taylor. And you've written like 85 books, I think, and gotten many awards. You've both received various awards. But what does it mean to each of you to win the Sydney Taylor Book Award in particular?

It's a huge honor. The first year that I won, it was for Ketzel, the Cat Who Composed. You know, you get that phone call, I think I started babbling, then I hang up the phone and think, did that that really happen? I have to admit that I did not read Sydney Taylor's books growing up. So I immediately went and read them and loved them. And I wrote to her daughter, Jo Marshall. We really connected because she's a cat lover as I am, and she sent me a newspaper article, her cat was the New Jersey Cat of the Year at some point. And so I wrote back and sent her a picture of my cat... anyway, so we've become great friends, I visited her and Mase in their home. And so it's become more and more meaningful, over the years to be associated with, first of all, such an incredible writer and important person in the Jewish community and in the children's literary community, and then to become friends with her daughter, and to have those stickers on my books. It is a great honor. It's also a responsibility, you know, gives me something to live up to, it pushes me to do my best work.

Well, I didn't know of Sydney Taylor myself, either. When I researched it, I was incredibly blown away by the honor. And it means so much to me too, not being Jewish, that that was okay. That the work and the time and the love and the effort I put in the book was respected. And then to win a second one was like, lightning can't strike twice, but it did. It's a team. It's like sometimes the teams hit, and you just get lucky and the work pays off.

Yeah. And it's interesting that the non-Lesléa book that you illustrated, that also won the Sydney Taylor, The Tower of Life, is not exactly a joyful book, it is a Holocaust related book. But it's probably one of the most positive Holocaust related books that I've ever read. It's about the Tower of Life display at the Holocaust Memorial Museum, that celebrates the life of a town that is now gone, that was destroyed by the Nazis, but it's bringing the town back to life through memories and photographs. So it's really a very positive take. Do you want to take a moment to talk about that book and your experience illustrating that book?

Sure. The Tower of Life was a really difficult book to illustrate, every day having to look at images of the children. I spend a lot of time before I start actually drawing, researching, you know, the time period, what's important about it. It was difficult in the fact that after doing all the research, and really learning how people suffered during that time, and especially the children, and it was during the pandemic that that book was being worked on. So there was a lot of dark days in my studio, you know, bringing out the drawings, booting up my computer and seeing these little people that didn't have a chance to grow up and read a book.

All those photos are in black and white. I kind of chose to do the illustrations in full color, because that's what Chana's story was about, was celebrating the life at that time. And not just looking at old pictures of people that were gone, that this was a live, vibrant community and that people were here. And there was one spread where they had Yaffa Eliach thinking about the people in her community, the milkman, the teachers, the children, where did they go, what happened to them, and originally I had the people looking back at her, but it wasn't powerful enough. I turned instead to have the people of that town of Eishyshok looking back at the reader, because it says, we were here, we mattered. And that was the whole gist of what the story was about. And I think that's why that was able to win the Sydney Taylor Award because yes, it was about the Holocaust, but it was also very life affirming, and uplifting and documenting that, you know, there is hope and there is life afterwards. And hopefully it won't happen again.

And it's interesting, people may not know this, but artists and illustrators do not communicate when they work on a book together, and you do not collaborate. And it sounds shocking, because when the books come out, they seem like the perfect marriage of the text with the words. But that's the skill of the editor to pick the author and illustrator and put them together. Lesléa, you could answer this better than I, if the author has a say about who they would like to select for a book. So anyway, we sent the drawings to Chana and she said she was moved to tears, and I was moved to tears. And then we met afterwards, and we completely bonded over the story. Same with Lesléa's book is when you read the text, and things start lighting up in your mind, you know that there's a richness there. And this is a book that you end up saying, I have to illustrate this. I've got this. I know what this book needs.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. It's a beautiful book.

Thank you.

So back to Joyful Song. Kirkus describes the illustrations of Joyful Song as "vibrant colors, cozy details, and exuberantly, sweeping brushwork." So Susan, can you talk about your art style?

Actually, the way I'm working now started with Welcoming Elijah. When I read the manuscript, and I told my agent, I really want to do this book but I want to control how I do the artwork. Well, illustrators do not get that opportunity to control anything, it's like you're hired to do a certain style and that's what you do. But I was trying to break out with a more painterly look. So with Joyful Song, it was so full of joy and happiness and color and life and being present in this neighborhood, that I just painted everything by hand and scanned those illustrations and then assembled them digitally in Photoshop. That's the way I like to work. I was trained classically, painting and drawing. And as much as I like working digitally, I still go back to the old way of working and putting it together and then later in Photoshop and make it a digital file for reproduction. But there's a lot of joy in that. And you can get a lot of looseness to it. That's what this book brought out in me. That's why I loved illustrating it so much in that it just got richer and richer with the color. And instead of the rainbow at the end, the whole book sort of became the rainbow. As we were designing the cover, we just couldn't get the jacket right, like what is the story about? We showed the two mommies, we didn't want to reveal too much. We wanted like the reader to have the story unveil as they read it. And then we came up on the idea of just illustrate the text.

So just to explain that the title, Joyful Song is multicolored and rainbow-like against this very bright white background.

Correct.

So that, in itself, becomes kind of an illustration.

Just, the rainbow happened and there's, just the color started coming out. And it just kind of found its own way.

Yeah, I think that turned out to be a great decision to not put the rainbow, because the whole thing is just one giant rainbow.

Exactly.

This is a truly joyful book, from the title to the theme to the story to the illustrations. And I think it's exactly what the world needs right now, especially the Jewish community, but really everyone. So I want to thank you both for creating it. And I want to ask you what was joyful about the process of creating this book, and also what was challenging.

For me, one of the most joyful parts was thinking of the nicknames that the family was calling the baby. You know, I actually lived in Denmark for a year on a farm, another life of mine. And the next farm over, the woman had a baby while I was there. And when I asked the baby's name, she looked at me really strangely. She said, I don't know. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, we haven't discovered the baby's name yet, you know, probably when she's about one and a half or two we'll decide what to name her. That was shocking to me. But that is their tradition. She was shocked that we here in this country think of names long before the baby is born. So I said well, what do you call the baby? And she was like, little darling, little sweet cheeks, little faucet nose. So that came back to mind when I was writing this and thinking, okay, there's going to be a week in the family's life when they don't use the baby's name. So I'll have to think of these names. That was really fun to think about.

And was there something challenging about creating this book?

The most challenging thing was figuring out who was telling the story. And as soon as I realized, Oh, the big brother should be the narrator and tell the story, then it all fell into place. But before that I had tried telling the story in third person, I tried telling the story from one of the mom's point of view or maybe both the mom's point of view, and that's very common in terms of my writing. When I find the voice who is telling the story, things seem to ease up for me.

Susan, tell us what was joyful and what was challenging.

Creating the characters and designing this family and designing their neighborhood was the ultimate joy. That's what I love about doing picture books. So you have the structure that the author wrote of these beautiful people. And there's no saying what they look like or anything. So I get to make all those choices and come up with that. And that's the ultimate joy. And it's a little trial and error, you go back and forth with the art director and the editor a little bit. But then starting the work, like putting paintbrush to paper. A lot of times when I illustrate, I start in the middle of a story, I never start at the beginning. Because by the time you get to the end, when you finish the book, then you understand the characters. I used to do animation. And we always lamented the fact that at the end of the movie, then you wish you could go back and redraw everything. It's the same with a picture book, you really get to know them, you know what they are, you know what they feel, you know how they move in the story. So that, to me is the ultimate joy in doing it. The diversity is what I loved. And Lesléa has that in all of her books. And that's what I really appreciate about her writing. And the animals, I love drawing animals. As far as a challenge, for this book, I can't really think of much of a challenge. I guess, keeping it strong enough. Like as I mentioned, your drawing gets a little better towards the end. So I had to go back and redraw things to keep that looseness throughout the whole story. But it wasn't like The Tower of Life where it was really grueling and awful. It just was light and fun. And it was a book that I needed to do at that time. And it was perfect.

I'm happy for you guys, that it was such a good experience!

Susan, since you didn't have a challenge, I can provide a second challenge.

Oh, good!

Which was when the big moment comes, I really wanted Zachary to be up on the bima and announce his sister's name. Every book I write goes through at least 20, 25 drafts. So for the first I don't know how many, at least 10, maybe more drafts, he sounded really stiff. And he sounded really formal. And he didn't really sound like a kid. And then I hit upon the idea that he rehearsed this. That gave me permission for him to be not stiff, exactly, but to maybe sound a little wiser, or more experienced than a kid who just got up at the spur of the moment and announced his sister's name. I wanted to show that a lot of thought was put into this moment, by him and by his family. And as much as he wanted to get the words right, in that particular moment in the family's life, I wanted to get those words right.

Oh, that's interesting, because then you also said that that's one of your favorite spreads.

Yes.

And so that makes me feel thrilled because I feel like that was one of the first spreads that I went for. Because I said I got this, I'm the oldest sister in my family. And even though Well, my brother came a year after me. So I wasn't as mature as Zachary is. It's just that love that you feel for a sibling. And Lesléa's characters were so well established. You just feel it, like, how would this little boy be holding his dear baby sister and look at her with such love. And then stained glass, putting that behind it. And then we abstracted the stained glass and let it just be washes of color, like the joy of the light coming through and the divine in that moment. If I got that right, then the rest of the book will fall into place.

Lesléa, you can you describe your favorite illustration in the book?

Zachary, holding his baby sister. He is cradling her. And she is reaching up with both hands which are on her big brother's chin. But the most amazing thing is, a picture's worth 1000 words as they say, the way he's looking down at her and the way she's looking up at him. Okay, I'm gonna get teary. You can just tell that these two human beings are bonded for life from this moment on. It's just so apparent and so beautiful and so full of love that it just amazes me that this can be captured in this way, that I just viscerally feel in my body when I look at this.

That's a wonderful description.

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. That's exactly what I shoot for. Thank you for that. That's a real gift, Lesléa, makes me happy.

Now I want to turn it around and Susan, ask you if you have a favorite line, or some part of the text.

The part where it says "we hurry home," I think in the original text we had "we rush home," there was no rainstorm in the text at all. And so that's when I brought in that gentle spring rain to put a rainbow in there. But we didn't put the rainbow in, but we still kept the... because it's springtime in that fun rainstorm and like the clouds parting. For me, that line made my favorite illustration where the two mommies, one of the mommies wears a shear scarf around her neck. And I thought this was a really loving way to show that they're protecting, you know, Zachary, with the shawl over their head. They're running in the rain, pushing the baby carriage. And just the love that they feel cocooned in this family that they all look after each other and care for each other. And there's a lightness to it and a joy. We had to kind of walk a fine line, we're showing the relationship between two married people, whether they're a gay couple or a straight couple, it doesn't matter. It's a children's picture book, books are going to get banned for who knows what. But there's a fine line, especially if it's a same sex couple. But I wanted to show well, hey, these people love each other. So their hands are going to touch, they're going to have an arm around each other. Lesléa, to me when she wrote it, had so much love in it, I wanted to take that and push it as far as it could go and visually show that love and connection, because that's what it's all about. And what you were saying, Heidi, it's a dark world right now. And we need to show love in all shapes and sizes and families, and we need each other. So you have to communicate that in a picture book.

So this is a Levine Querido book, a publisher that tends to create particularly excellent books. I've interviewed Arthur Levine on the podcast, and you dedicated this episode to him in your teaser. So can you talk about the experience of working with Arthur Levine and his team?

Well, Arthur, and I go way back. He was my editor in 1994 for my middle grade novel, Fat Chance. I trust him implicitly. So in this particular case, he did ask me, who do you want to illustrate this book? Not every publisher does that. In fact, most publishers don't. It depends on your contract. If you're really utterly famous, then you can choose, you know, if you're Jerry Seinfeld, or somebody like that, and you're writing a children's book. What I have in all my contracts is consultation, which can mean anything from: here are three people that we're thinking of, who do like? to, we've gone with this person, we hope you're happy, which to me is not really consultation. But that has happened to me. I know, I'm a little off track of the question. But the point is that I trust Arthur, I know Arthur, I know he produces beautiful books, heart warming books, books that touch people in in a very deep way. And I was really thrilled when he accepted this book. He had a very light editing hand with it, actually, in terms of the text. I like to think that since 1994 I've become a better writer, and that he can see that in our second book together. And everybody at his publishing house is enthusiastic, and smart, and resourceful and really a pleasure to work with.

Yeah, I had the same experience. It was very light hand, I think he'd knows to put people together and he kind of trusts them. And everything was there in the manuscript. It didn't need to go back and forth. And when I started sketching it, he could see how quickly the art came, that I've got it. It was a perfect marriage. It just kind of went all together. His whole team is fantastic. He's a giant in the industry. So when my agent call it said, it's an Arthur Levine book and Lesléa, it's like, you know, I don't even have to read it. That's like, yes, I want to do this.

You complement each other very well.

Yeah.

So Susan, you had mentioned, you worked for Disney Animation. Tell us about that experience. And did you work on any projects that we would recognize?

Oh, that was a whole lifetime ago. I was living in Los Angeles and freelancing, working for a poster company. And all my friends were, you know, finding partners and getting married, and I just wanted out of LA. And the boss I worked for would get students right out of art school and not pay them, so I was calling my art school to say, please don't send people to him, he's not a good person to work with. And the person there said, I remember you did some kind of animated type work. Disney is hiring, would you submit a portfolio they were doing a nationwide search? I said, I have no animation skills. They said they will train you. They did this portfolio submission across the country. The only criteria was you had to be out of art school and had to move to Orlando, Florida, because they're opening the Disney MGM studio there and you're going to be part of the animation tour. And were you willing to work behind the glass wall so people can see your work? And I said, Sure, I just wanted out of LA. I submitted a portfolio and out of 20 of us, I was the only woman. So then I was told, Well, you got hired because you're a woman. And I said no, I got hired because I can draw better than you. And they did train you. And so I went through a nine week internship and learned the basics of animation. I have to admit my animation wasn't that good. But my drawing skills were good. So anyway, the contract was for three years. I had met my husband-to-be right before I left for Florida. We dated cross country for a year and a half and I couldn't bear to be away from him and I missed my California so much. After a year and a half I broke my contract and went back to Los Angeles. The movie I did work on was cartoon called Roller Coaster Rabbit. When they made the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit they did a series of cartoons after that, to kind of keep the character alive and that was one of the cartoons I worked on. And it was the best experience of my life being with such talent, it was such a great studio and a lot of fun.

All right, very cool. Susan, you also illustrate books of your own. So can you talk a little about the difference between illustrating your own words versus someone else's words?

Writing the books are brutal, I really struggle with it. I get the whole picture in my head, I'll sketch it all out. And then I'll fill the words in, which is probably the worst way to do something. But that's just who I am. That's just how I see things. I prefer, I think, to illustrate other people's stories. I do like my own. And I do like coming up with different ideas. But I really liked the challenge of taking a text that exists and then like making it blossom. So the illustrator solves people's problems and I like the problem solving of it.

So since we have you both here together, I'm wondering if you have any particular questions for each other?

I did want to know, Susan, do you divide the text up throughout the pages? Or is that something that Arthur did? Or the art director? Or did you do that together? Because when I submit a manuscript, I just send it in as running text, you know, I don't have any kind of notation of page breaks. So I'm curious about that.

If I'm lucky, I get a paginated book. But it doesn't happen that way a lot of times. That's the hardest part, is how do you judge what is on a spread? What is on a single page? What is the page turn? A lot of times, you just feel what is right, like, let's say with yours, it's pretty easy to kind of feel like this is the page turn. Yeah, that's something that I have to do. And we usually work it with the art director, they allow me visually to kind of piece it out. And then they'll say it's not working or whatever. But yeah, that's kind of left up to the illustrator.

And was the book ever originally 32 pages, who decided to make it 40 pages? which is so wonderful, because it gives us so much more space.

In those instances, it's been me because I want to put more art in there. And the same thing with Tower of Life, it was supposed to be 32 pages. And sometimes a book just needs, you need, space, and you need that time to breathe. The author is responsible for the words and making the story flow, but I have to make it visually flow. And sometimes you just need to add a beat. So it really is a team, team effort, nobody passes it on to one person, and then you take it. It always comes back and reworks things.

I know some authors actually create dummies for themselves to help them create a story. I have never done that. You know, I also write for adults. And I also write a lot of poetry. So I just see things cascading down the page.

I actually turned down a manuscript that had everything spelled out, what the character looked like, what was on the page. I knew that I couldn't make that author happy. Because if they were so specific about what the character was wearing, and even sent pictures of what should be in the scene, I thought that's something that's not going to allow me any fun or creativity and that I'm never going to make that person happy. Because they're going to have a mindset of what they have. And it just wasn't gonna work.

I always tell my students, you have to leave room for the artist to do their visual storytelling.

Is that hard? Is that difficult?

No, not for me, because I'm just like all about the words, but a lot of people have a very hard time with it. And that's very often beginner writers, or writers that have created a story based on actual events. So they have this vision in their heads of what the characters look like, because, you know, this was my mom's childhood or whoever and, you know, I, I say you really have to let go. It's a really good Zen Buddhist experience and challenge, a lot of letting go. And I compare it to filmmaking, which is not something that I've experienced at all. However, I remind people that the director says this is my movie, the star says this is my movie, the screenwriter says this is my movie, the editor says this is my movie. So it's everybody's. And you've said before Susan, that it's a team effort. And it really has to be, and so you can have some kind of vision in your mind, but you have to hold it very loosely, and be open to the magic and wonder of surprise of someone else's creativity. I mean, that's the most fun as a writer, to see when the art comes in. And it's always a gazillion times better than I could possibly have imagined.

Have you ever been incredibly surprised or incredibly horrified by what you've seen?

Yes. Oh, yes, I have on two occasions, which I will not reveal who those were.

Oh, no, no.

But you know, just like I revise and revise and revise, sometimes as you know better than me, the illustrator has to revise and revise and revise. I also know that as the writer, I might not always get what I want. And the illustrator might not always get what they want, but we all get some of what we want. So for example, this isn't something that horrified me, but I have had things happen where the text will say that this is a brown goat. And when the drawings come back, this happened actually in Gittel's Journey, the goat was white. The reason was the illustrator said that a brown goat on a green field didn't show up very well, and the white goat showed up much better. So you know, I could dig in my heels and say no, you know, the the artist has to do this painting over, or I could change one word. Well, that's kind of an obvious choice. And it didn't really matter in terms of the content of the story, what color the goat was. So that kind of thing happens. But sometimes an illustration is wrong. It's just depicting something that is just different than what the words intended. Sometimes that happens with pronouns. Like, he put his hat on his head. Well, whose hat, whose head? If there's just something that's an error, then that really has to be corrected for the integrity of the story.

Interesting, like in Welcoming Elijah, Lesléa had provided me with some pictures of her beloved Princess Sheba, I believe?

Princess Sheba Darling!

Yes, Princess Sheba Darling. And she had some really interesting markings on her. She was a mostly white kitty, and really fluffy. But whenever I put the markings on, they just didn't work with the illustrations, because it looked like there was something wrong with her, she, why does she have that mark on her there? So I left it a pure white kitty. And I hope that was okay, because you want to be true to the kitty that inspired it. But you're right about the goat, I totally understand why things have to pop out from the background. So those are choices that an author may not see as they're thinking, but the illustrator would definitely know that you've got to be able to follow the character throughout the story. So there has to be a consistency.

Well, you know, another thing happened in Welcoming Elijah, which was, I don't know if you remember this Susan, but at the beginning, when the main character opens the door to welcome his guests, he was standing between his mom and his dad. And I said to our wonderful editor, why doesn't he open the door by himself so that it's not the default that he is in a mom-dad family? He has a mother, she pours his drink at one point, his grape juice, but you never really know what his family constellation is. And I wanted it to be more open. And you were very open to that idea, which I appreciated. So there's that kind of art note that you can give your Illustrator.

Yeah, that was brilliant, though. I thought, oh, man, why didn't I see that? And at first, I didn't want a child opening the door alone, because why would a child open a door alone? You know, that kind of thing. But it's like, well, why wouldn't he? It's his home. Oh, another part of that is I had a square table. And I had a male at the head of the table because I assumed that that's how it would be in a Jewish home. And Lesléa was like, no, no, no, this is a round table. Everybody's equal. It's like, right on. Okay, now I'm feeling this. Now I get what this is all about. And I thought as far as diversity, this is what my family looks like. We've got people of all different sizes and colors. And that's where it's a good marriage between the author and illustrators. Like, if something's important to an author, I definitely want to know, because I don't want to drop the ball on that, I want to make sure to get that in there. Like I just finished a book and the author provided pictures of her grandmother's home. And I incorporated some of that in because if she went to the trouble to take these photos to send to me, then it was very important to her that I put that in there. And this was her first book, she wrote it out of such a love of her heart. I need to reciprocate and put some of that in there make it meaningful.

It's Tikkun Olam time. So what action would each of you like to call listeners to take, to help heal the world?

I thought long and hard about this request. And I came up with something very, very simple. What I'd really like people to do is be kind, to go out of their way to be kind every day. Very simple things like, let the person in the grocery line who only has two items go ahead of you; let somebody in when you're driving; leave a generous tip for your server; buy the unhoused person at the intersection who you pass every day a cup of coffee. Just do something that is kind and will brighten somebody's day.

I agree with Lesléa. I thought of something very simple. And it's just what's helped me a lot to be a better person is to just be a good listener. What I loved about this story is like the moms let Zachary rise to the occasion, and to speak. And they might interrupt because they don't want him to reveal the name of the baby. But he's respected. He's given agency and you can tell that when he's responsible, he can be a better brother for his little sister. I know when I was a mom, if someone asked my young daughter a question, I would hurry up and answer for her. And over time, I just realized, like, let the little people speak. Let's open our hearts and listen to them and to older people too. And figure out do they need your help? Do they need a hug? or do they just want to be heard? It's a major act of kindness to really see the person who comes to you for whatever needs they may have. A little bit goes a long ways.

Those are both beautiful suggestions. Thank you both so much.

Yeah. Can I ask you a question, Heidi?

Sure.

Tell me about your groovy sound space that you're in. Are you in a closet?

Oh, thanks for asking that. I am in a walk in closet sound booth. This house came with some built in cabinets in a different room. So we're like, oh, we don't need this closet. We've got other storage space. So we turned this into a sound booth with the blankets from moving, the packing blankets are attached to the walls to deaden the sound. And so I've got a little desk in here and my computer, my microphone.

Oh, it's great. It's a brilliant space. I mean, sounds really good and very professional.

Actually, I'll show you.

Yeah? Oh, you got an On Air sign!

I have this On Air sign that my friend got for me as a present for my birthday. And I tried turning it on. But on Zoom, it's so bright, that all you see is a blur of light. And you can't actually see that it says On Air. So I have to leave it turned off if I want anybody to see what it says.

That's pretty great. Yeah. Well, now that you have a permanent space, I hope you keep doing this because you are really good. Ask really great questions.

Oh, thank you very much. Well, I've been doing it since forever. The podcast began in 2005. So...

Wow.

Yeah, but I keep doing it because it's so much fun to talk to folks like you.

Well, you know, it's so clear to me that you really spend time looking at the book, researching the guests that you have on and it's truly a pleasure, as opposed to being interviewed by someone who says, So you've written a book.

Well, thank you very much. I appreciate it. I love doing it. So Susan asked me a question. Lesléa, do you have a question you want to ask me?

Yeah. You are so experienced, and in the know about Jewish children's books. Is there a book that you wish would be written?

Yeah. Yes. The thing that pops into my head first is that I wish that we could have a Jewish version of Mo Willems' Eelephant and Piggie series. Something that is laugh out loud funny. And at the same time clever and warm and loving, and such a kid pleaser. I would love to have something like that.

Those are the kind of books that you read, and you think, oh my god, this is so easy. I could write this and then you try and you realize how incredibly difficult it is. You know, I once naively thought, oh, Frog and Toad. How hard can this be? A few cute little stories about friends. And it's, it's virtually impossible. So.

Yeah. That's what makes them classics.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But that reminds me you know, Frog and Toad being those easy readers, that is also a space that needs to be filled. We need more simple Jewish books. We need more board books. We need more preschool level books. We need more easy readers, and even simple chapter books. So we're doing pretty well with sophisticated picture books and with middle grade and YA, but those easier level things, we're kind of not caught up.

Okay, authors, Heidi's put the word out, get to writing!

Well, I mean, seriously, there's a wish list on the Sydney Taylor Shmooze website at SydneyTaylorShmooze.com, where we have all the Jewish books being reviewed. We do have a wish list on there. So authors take note. But thank you for asking that question.

I have tried and failed what you just said, because I've written several board books that my editors have loved and wanted to turn into full fledged picture books, which is great, but I was like, Oh, I was really trying to fill that void and write some board books.

That's funny that you tried to write a board book, but they're like, no, no, this has to be longer.

I mean, when when an editor asks for such a thing, it's a gift.

Which books are you referring to the started as board books and became picture books?

They're not out yet.

Ah!

So they're a pair of books. One is a two-mom family celebrating Shabbat and one is a two-dad family celebrating Shabbat. And they're coming out in 2027. Susan, you might relate to this, because the illustrator had to have time in their schedule for two full length picture books.

Yeah, I've done three picture books in 17 months, and it's just about killed me. So, you know, a good four to five months is a good amount of time, from the sketching to the painting, and it's a lot of effort.

I'm glad to hear about those. That sounds great. So we sort of started talking about this, but let's actually put the question, what are each of you working on next?

I'm right now working on a book, I'm teamed up again, with Chana Stiefel, we're going to be another dynamic duo. And this is a total pivot from The Tower of Life with Scholastic and this the same team that put together The Tower of Life. So I'm really excited about getting the band back together and doing a book because we really hit it off and it really brought out the best of us. I'm really eager to work with everyone again.

I have a book coming out called Welcome:A Prayer for Refugees. There's a wonderful book called Wishes, I'm pretty sure, I have to look. The storyis told from the point of view of refugees coming to this country. And I decided to write a counter book from the point of view of people in this country welcoming refugees. That is coming out, hopefully in 2025, though, one never knows these days. And then I have the two companion Shabbat books with the two-mom family two-dad family. And then I have a book called Something Sweet: A Sitting Shiva story, which I'm very excited about. And then I have a book coming out called One Smart Cookie.

Wow, you are very busy.

This is true.

Where can listeners learn more about your work?

You can see my work on GalGirlStudio.com. Or I'm also on Instagram at @SusanGalDraws.

And my website is my name, LesléaNewman.com. And I also write for adults. So there is a place you can click which will take you to my website that just features my kids books, which is LesléaKids.com, Twitter X and Facebook and Instagram, I think it's just my name @LesléaNewman.

Lesléa Newman and Susan Gal, thank you so much for talking with me.

Thank you. It's always a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. It's been an honor. I appreciate it.

[MUSIC, DEDICATION] Hi, this is Adam Gidwitz, author of Max In the House of Spies. I'll be joining you soon on The Book of Life podcast. I'd like to dedicate my episode to all those kids out there who desperately want the truth and are in a situation where maybe for whatever reason, they can't find it.

Hi, this is Steve Sheinkin author of Impossible Escape. I'd like to dedicate my episode to Mr. Lindemann, Bill but I of course I knew him as Mr. Lindemann, my elementary school teacher who was to this day the best storyteller I've ever known, and sparked the love of stories, the curiosity and wonder that stories can create.

[MUSIC, OUTRO] Say hi to Heidi at 561-206-2473 or bookoflifepodcast@gmail.com Check out our Book of Life podcast Facebook page, or our Facebook discussion group Jewish Kidlit Mavens. We are occasionally on Twitter too @bookoflifepod. Want to read the books featured on the show? Buy them through Bookshop.org/shop/bookoflife to support the podcast and independent bookstores at the same time. You can also help us out by becoming a monthly supporter through Patreon. Additional support comes from the Association of Jewish Libraries, which also sponsors our sister podcast, Nice Jewish Books, a show about Jewish fiction for adults. You'll find links for all of that and more at BookofLifePodcast.com Our background music is provided by the Freilachmakers Klezmer String Band. Thanks for listening and happy reading!

[MUSIC, PROMO] This is a story of two girls. Annamae lives in New York with her brother and linguist mother. Ani lives in a parable. Annamae yearns for connection and feels that someone will show up to take her away to where she's supposed to be. In the meantime, she pours her thoughts and dreams into her diary. Ani lives on a homestead which is a safe place for misfits and the homeless. Ani goes on a journey to find a dear friend who left without his treasured journal. In the middle of the book, the stories meet and intertwine. But is it the middle of their story? Or is it the end or perhaps the beginning? Join me for a conversation with Leah Hagar Cohen about her book or books To & Fro.