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Episode 1: Global Inclusion [Danbee] | Otter.ai

Episode 1: Global Inclusion [Danbee]

Mariana Peña32min

Mariana Peña

00:00

Hello, welcome. We're very happy to be here with you. I'm joined by my co host, Danbee Shin, and she will introduce herself because she is the lead expert, in my opinion worldwide about global inclusion.

Danbee Shin

00:16

Thank you. I'm Danbee Shin, and I'm a web design mentor and global inclusion specialist. That is a title that I gave myself for everyone who has asked. So let's talk Global Inclusion and why I made this such a big part of the work that I do. Obviously, if you see inclusion, I think most people will think of the term diversity equity inclusion and it is related to those things. I don't know if the saying is now outdated, but I still love it. A DEI expert called Verna Meyers said many years ago that diversity is being invited to the party, inclusion is being asked to dance. This isn't your super traditional man-asking-a-woman-to-dance situation, this is, you're at a party and you're being made to feel like, you're welcome there, and you're appreciated. And you people want you to be a part of the dance that's happening at the party, they want you to be part of the fun. And as a business owner online, I found that I was not being invited to dance, I was welcome to start my own business. Anyone can do that. But there were so many instances where I felt like I just wasn't welcome wasn't appreciated, not even welcome, like I didn't matter. And a lot of that was to do with where I was, which is something that I had not had to really grapple with until I wanted to look at growing my online business. So that's why we're here.

Mariana Peña

01:46

So many ideas right now, so many questions. When I first heard you speak on inclusion, and then the term global inclusion, and this is what it means for me, it made me think of your geographical position in the world, when it comes to access. And I'm not even going to say privilege, because that's a given, of course, where you're living in the world gives you or takes away from you privilege. But geographically, if you're trying to run a business, where you are located that possibility for you to move around in the world, the possibility for you to sell your services in a specific currency, all of that is interconnected. And I think Global Inclusion is a beautiful umbrella that you have created to guide us through all of that complexity. In the online online world, you have had the opportunity and the rare experience of starting out your business in a specific part of the world and then move into another one. And now running it from a different one. How do you think location times currency has impacted?

Danbee Shin

03:04

Absolutely we are when we talk about Global Inclusion, if we lived in a world where we had like ideal state of Global Inclusion, this would not matter. It would not matter that I've been running my business from three different countries. And at the end of the day, that's what I am talking about. When I talk about Global Inclusion, I don't want your geographical location to determine or to have a huge influence on how successful you can be as an online business owner. And most people don't realize how big an impact your geographical location actually does have on how easy it is for you to grow your online business. Because we live in a world of globalization and the Internet and everyone has internet now. I started my business as a side hustle in Singapore, I still had a full time job, I realized that it wasn't the place for me to express myself fully and just seeing the world as my whole self. And as much as I tried to create an environment where I could and where other people could in the corporate world that wasn't possible. So that was my little plan to start a side hustle to see if I could grow it into a full time business. And I did just so happened that COVID also happened to hit Singapore just as I left my full time job, but that's a story for another day. And then I moved to South Korea, and ran my business there for a bit. I was there for about a year and a half. And now I'm in Switzerland. First impressions, actually first thoughts or Wow, I'm so lucky that my business is online and it doesn't matter where I am in the world to be able to run my business and that's a privilege that I feel like I have personally because all of my work happens online. I don't have a store I don't have clients that I meet face to face in person I also have a husband who has a full time job, but so I don't feel like if I have a slow month or if a few slow months, like I'm gonna be out on the street, I will be taken care of. And those are all things that I feel like made it possible for me to move around so much and more kind of. More recently, I've been thinking about how easy it is how much easier it is, for me, even though I'm still adjusting to my new life in Switzerland, as at the time of the recording, it's been about six months, the timezone thing I feel it's so much I've been telling people like, almost like I'm telling them a secret, I'm like, this is a really good time zone to be running an online business, after all my years of complaining about how people don't take into account the fact that Asia has been awake for eight hours before before you start your day. And that's one thing. The other thing is I can't put a finger on it. But it's been a lot easier for me to get one on one clients based in Europe. And I'm talking about getting clients from an audience that's not super warm to me, they might have heard me here and there, but they're not people. I've had one on one conversations with on social media, for example, who have been very, like quick in their decision to work with me, which I'm grateful for. And it must mean I'm doing something right. But I can't help thinking that the fact that I'm I'm based in Switzerland, and not in Singapore, or South Korea, and laughing because those are also two of the most developed countries.

Mariana Peña

06:32

I know. But you know that because you have lived there. Yeah. And I can guarantee you that the narrative that we hear online and in the news, and in the media in general, it's not like that. They don't say that. These are like advanced countries, these are countries that leave America in general, from Canada to Patagonia, just in awe of everything they are doing. We don't hear that it's not in their best interest to say that no, but if

Danbee Shin

07:05

my business is my business, like I could have, before Singapore, I was living in Indonesia, I was very close to starting my own business. When we're living in Indonesia, I as grateful as I am that my I feel so conflicted, I'm grateful that my business is doing well. And that I get to benefit from the fact that I moved my whole life across the world to live in Switzerland. But also a big part of me is like, what the fuck? Like, why should it matter? In terms of that intangible value of my business, and I know a big part of it comes from, oh, she seems harmless. She's not so Asian, she's, she's gonna she's going to share my values. She's not going to be difficult to work with or understand. But yeah,

Mariana Peña

07:49

what we're what we're discussing here without naming it, but I'm just going to name it our biases and biases are just I think a huge part of recognizing the Global Inclusion has many different branches that are intertwined and are operating at the same time. And when you just said, I feel conflicted, because I'm doing well. And at the same time, I know that there may be reasons why that is happening. One, I think those are biases from both ends, because we also have them and to, I don't think you would feel as conflicted if you weren't a person of color, we have such an acute awareness of our existence in the world, for better or worse, and I am very grateful for you because you're sharing a very honest realization. I don't think many people are aware of that. I don't think many people would even dare to say it out loud. I empathize with that. And I also, I see myself in what you're saying the same. I'm from Mexico, I lived my entire life up until when I was 30 years old, and I moved to the Netherlands. I had to create my business here because I couldn't get a job. That is the truth. I was a very good professor in Mexico work for top university. I had what it was like a kid equivalent to tenure. I was on track. I had the best job. I moved here and I'm just a brown immigrant. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about my graduate degree. Nobody cares about my resume. They literally said to my face on interviews. Yeah, your CV is great, I cannot hire you does. I'm gonna be asked questions, and you don't have Dutch papers. And that's the moment I was like, I can spend the rest of my life trying to find a system that is not built for me. That doesn't. The system doesn't even see me. Part of that was biases associated with my ethnicity, with even my religion, the fact that I didn't profess one, but they knew that Mexico was Catholic, so they were like she might have some ideas that are not going to be a good match to our like, liberal and tolerant country. And I'm using quotation marks because it's not really like this is a very Christian country, there were a lot of hesitations and resistance about me as a person that I would never be able to win over, I was on track to be disappointed for the rest of my life. Now that I'm online, I'm conflicted too, because I know for a fact that if I were still living in Mexico, it would still be myself. But if I was still living in Mexico, trying to build this online business, I would not be able to charge what I charge, I would not be able to convert cold clients, I would not be able to build the reputation and the solid drag that I have built so far, just because I was operating from Mexico. So I am very grateful that you're sharing this, because I see myself in what you're saying. Thank you for

Danbee Shin

10:59

sharing. And yeah, it's so hard, isn't it? Also, all my life, I've worked in countries outside of my own. I worked in Sweden and Hong Kong and Singapore and Indonesia. And every time I don't know if they explicitly called me an expat, but I had the expat lifestyle. I don't know that anyone would call me an expat now. I'm an immigrant, right? I share that, because I've seen tons of people who, sure who also look like me, but mostly white people who have been with me at these organizations at these companies who are welcomed with open arms and showered with Expat packages with tons of benefits and great houses with great services at home, like living help, and drivers and memberships at these social country clubs and everything. The only difference is that they're white, in the Global South. Yes. Anyway, to bring it back to

Mariana Peña

12:00

I was gonna say, because if we are thinking about Global Inclusion, what would you say are like the components that you have identified within the umbrella of Global Inclusion,

Danbee Shin

12:12

the main things I encounter on a day to day basis are basically normalizing the experience of people, I would say, mostly in the US, and maybe North America, Northern America, we've had conversations about that term, and what we think of as the West, including Western Europe. And the problem that the reason I point this out as a problem is if you look at the data, and if you look at, okay, so you run a business online, and you look at all the people who are available to you who are who could potentially be paying attention to you, as the 100%. Only, like 67% of those people are in the US. That is just a fact, they are over represented. Even if you look at just the overall world population, they're over represented. It's not a problem, per se. But I'm pointing at the fact that most of the English language content that we encounter online, in the process of building our businesses, and that's not social media content, that's blog content. That's YouTube content, that's courses you buy, that's influencers and educators and coaches that you pay attention to all of that content is intended for the US audience. And you can see that from the language. They use small things like cultural references, talking about TV shows, or geographical locations, every time I hear someone on a podcast, say, Oh, this in this country or all across the country, you never have to ask what country they're talking about what's the United States when you do so that's the broader, that's the broader environment, when I say the intended audience is people in the US, maybe Western Europe, and that shows up in ways where events are advertised as Eastern time or Pacific Time. And the whole world at this point is very familiar with American time zones, because we've had to be because we had to in order to participate. So time zones, and it's not just oh, it's happening. It's not like converting time zones. It's like when are events happening when a support being provided? Because it's going to be within very specific hours in the day. It's things like cultural appropriation happens all the frickin time when people use terminology to say something about their business. It's usually marketing right to make themselves look good, which is basically what marketing is right? We're all trying to make ourselves look good. So we appeal to people to the right people. So they come and work with us using terms that are appropriated so many coaches calling themselves Sherpas or so many like experts calling themselves ninjas. That's something man I heard like sensei recently and Guru Oh my God,

Mariana Peña

15:00

I could go on, create your business man trust,

Danbee Shin

15:03

oh my god mantras and spirit animals. And it happens. I think it's so harmful because it happens in passing. And it becomes so normal and it's only normal because you're not thinking about all the other people in the world whose culture is you're stealing from honestly and those are the things I would point to just like geographical references, timezones, cultural appropriation or just really like lack of sensitivity around cultures. And the one other thing I would point out, the reason that the global aspect of Global Inclusion is so important to me is people have become very generally people have become very aware of racial issues and colonialism as a whole. A lot of people don't still don't know the intricacies of the different histories and the context around this as the different parts of the world have different kinds of histories of colonialism, and neocolonialism, I think there's such a lack of thought about what it means when you're interacting with someone and where the actual place in this world where they're from,

Mariana Peña

16:11

I love how you put it all laid out. I just want to make a quick recap here. So we started out with what's under the umbrella of Global Inclusion. And you pointed out very compellingly so that, factually, we are billions of people around the world. And we tend to think that only US based English speaking people are the ones who we have, in order for us to acquire clients to network to build an audience. And you have the statistics to prove that even if we're only speaking about business, that is not true. And if you open that up to none business, then just look at the world. And I just want to bring in another example, look at tick tock and people in the USA, we're going to ban it then they have to sell it to us and they are so on bothered by it because they have the numbers to prove that. So if you don't want to believe my friend Amber, he believes the CEO of tick tock, he

Danbee Shin

17:11

has a Singaporean, exactly

Mariana Peña

17:13

by the way, people's

Danbee Shin

17:15

Communist Party. That's a huge topic.

Mariana Peña

17:17

But yes, what my point is, if we just if we're willing to unlearn the imperialist narrative that it if it's not based in the US, it doesn't matter. And we open ourselves up to the fact that everybody else in the world matters, thinks and can run a business can hire you, as a freelancer, contractor, or also business owner, your life is going to become so much easier. I know that this sounds a little bit like an invitation as if I was Morpheus from the matrix like this is the red pill. This is the blue pill. But it is like that, it feels like that. Once you see that somehow I'm from Mexico, living in the Netherlands. And I still understand when people say, if you're in the Bay Area, you're welcome to my live event. And I'm a what do you know how many Bay Areas in the world there are? And how am I supposed to understand that San Francisco, but I still understand that what's your mean? Because we all try to accommodate the needs and the way of just a tiny part of the population. So Global Inclusion is an opportunity for everyone, I think, to realize that no matter where you are in the world, no matter how you look like no matter what you speak, or how you speak if you are part of the world, and you're invited to feel like that. And I feel like that's beautiful.

Danbee Shin

18:43

Yeah, because right now as things stand, if you are, let's say in, let's say the timezone I was at in Singapore, GMT plus eight, eight hours ahead of GMT, sometimes UK time, things don't happen when you're awake, I to build my business, I talk a lot about how proud I am to have built my business to the six figures and profit that everyone talks about. I did do that in three years. And I did also work going on calls at 4am at 5am Staying up for 1am calls. Because I had to when people would be on calls with me and just assume I was American. I didn't correct them. I went along with it because it did not work in my favor to tell the stranger who had the influence to help me build my business to tell them they were wrong. Like why would I introduce another questionable variable to this equation? And I didn't talk about Global Inclusion. Honestly, I think that's the biggest for me. That's the biggest indication but I wasn't like if I needed something to tell me we need more global inclusion in the world. It's not I didn't feel comfortable enough or confident enough to talk about it. When I was not making enough I went I wasn't making a full time income from my business when it was a side hustle. But I really just needed to get to the point where I was running a profitable enough business. And in the end, I feel like, ironically, me talking about Global Inclusion also helped me get to the point where my business was, as successful it is, as it is now. But I wasn't complaining about those 1am calls. Ah,

Mariana Peña

20:24

I see you, I understand that completely. And it's a good reminder that, again, is not just a one thing happening in isolation, we are discussing Global Inclusion. But we understand that there are many intersections happening here. The fact that as a person of color, who has particular crossings with ethnicity, and the fact that you're a woman, and the fact that you're running business, outside of your, what you could call your homeland, you're speaking, one of your many languages, like all of these things can come together to give you that feeling of if I don't play their game, there's no game for me to play. So I'm just going to bend myself to those rules. And I appreciate you saying it, because again, it's so honest, for you to say that I feel the same. I have a time slot in my calendar for when it's for me, it's 9pm 10pm. Because I know that I have clients in LA in Los Angeles, I have clients in San Francisco, I have clients in Vancouver, and these are guys that I love working with, right? It's not their fault that they are located there, as it is not my fault that I'm in the Netherlands. But I know that if it was the other way around, and I would ask them to wake up at five to have the call with me, they wouldn't do it, right. So your work in Global Inclusion is just like a validation, for many of us to know and to feel that one, we're not making things up. These are real things happening, we're not being too much when we notice them. It is also okay that everybody's in a different point in their journey of unpacking what this means to them. And we have choices, we can make choices right now I am making the choice of opening that time slot in my calendar, because these are clients that I want to work with me because my lifestyle right now works like that I have very young kids, they are in bed so mama can work at this moment, my brain is functioning six months ago, I was still postpartum, I couldn't. So I have choices right now that I can make. These are intentional choices. These are realities that I'm dealing with. So when it comes to choices, what could you tell and share with the people who are listening right now?

Danbee Shin

22:56

There's definitely what you're doing right? The time something is hard, like I said, when I was talking about Oh, wow. Like the central European timezone is awesome for an online business owner. Because I don't have to be up really early to talk to my people in Asia, I don't have to stay up that late to talk to people in the Americas. And you make it like you said, you make a choice for yourself, whatever works for you. I am not about talking to everyone and having no boundaries and just making yourself available to everyone. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just being aware of the consequences of your decisions maybe are only available for your clients during the day like during the corporate office hours, but you're aware that excludes a lot of people and you have to be okay with it because you got to take care of yourself. But you can definitely ask your people when they would like to work with you and what that means for your time. Other choices you can make are I like talking about payments a lot because we're in business and business is about making money and making it easy for people to give you money like how are you taking payment, I just had a conversation with a client in India because PayPal just changed how available they are for different clients, different users in India and it depends is your business in India? Are your clients in India? Are you taking a payment? Are you accepting payments and Indian rupees or US dollars because it's all friggin different. So just because you have access to pay Paul and Zell and Stripe and all the others doesn't mean that everyone else does. And those are choices that you can make. Are you accepting credit cards? Are you accepting bank transfers? If you don't know talk to your people and I feel like one of the biggest things like you and money that you and I and Marianna without we've talked about a lot is when we look at these virtual events online and we look at the speaker lineups. These are very intentional choices people have made we know people spend a lot of time organizing these events. events, and they get a lot of support, they outsource a lot, they go and educate themselves a lot for how to run the best events. And your speaker lineup is all white, all male, like, we're in 2024. I feel like at this point, even if you didn't care about really running an inclusive business, that's just good marketing to have a few people of color, if you will, in your best

Mariana Peña

25:22

interest. Exactly. Because, again, the global population is not white, we are the global majority. Yeah, these are all choices that you can make. Okay, so to recap, choices, or you can call them steps, action steps that you can take the session that you can make, we are talking about thinking, how do you accept payments, if you don't know what's going on, talk to your audience, talk to your past clients, talk to the people who are located where you want to conduct your business, because it is going to have an impact. And these are things that like you mentioned, it is out of their hands, like it's not that they choose to have this, quote unquote, complicated situations, because a lot of people see them like, oh, there's just too many complications, it's not about that. So talk to them so that you can make the choice whether you're going to expand your market there and properly, serve them or not, just know that it is a choice. You mentioned also the time of the event, that is also very important, because there's so much chatter online about scaling, scaling means global audience, and not everybody sleeps at the same time, point blank, that's a fact you should know that. So make the choice. Don't try to expand your audience to Asia, and then don't serve them. dismiss them completely. Don't that like them either, right? Because don't say that this is for everyone, when you are clearly not meaning that that second one like me in my heart, the third step and the most important one, and I think the one that people really can take action on right now. No matter where you are in your business is diversifying your audience, your network, your team. If you're starting out, you're a creator, diversify your audience. If everybody looks like you, ask yourself, why? Out of curiosity, ask them why? Because there's a reason behind that. And you might not be aware of it. And it might help you course, correct. Your network. If you're building a business online, your network is everything in you Dombey just said, it's in your best interest to diversify your network, not everybody should look like you and everybody should think what you think. And if you're at the point where you're you have a team behind you just also pay attention to that I because I'm an instructional designer, and I work with a lot of like big course creators, it is also it's always a point for me to ask them, how is your team? How's your team doing with this? What are their thoughts on this? Have you asked them? Are they comfortable with this? So if you are running a team, it is part of your I would say duty as the head of the team, as a CEO, as the founder of the company, to be aware that Global Inclusion is something that is intentionally built, it's not something is just going to magically happen, even though you have the best heart in place. So I love these steps. Is there anything else than be that you think if they are already on this path, they are hearing and nodding and agreeing with what you have been sharing so far? Is there any other resource that they can go to they can buy or purchase they can follow to just go like more serious into this,

Danbee Shin

28:47

I would point them to my course globally inclusive websites. It's a 97 US dollar course I purposely will not increase the price on this because I want everyone who is interested to be able to realistically go and learn from it. This is if you want to learn more about cultural appropriation, I know we didn't talk much about why it's so problematic to call yourself a guru, for example, or to call your membership tribe. This is the kind of stuff I talk about in depth in global inclusive websites. And you might think why websites you might remember, I'm a mentor for web designers. I started my business as a designer, and I say globally inclusive websites. But honestly your website is a representation of your brand and your business. So I cover everything that's relevant when it comes to building a globally inclusive business. So cultural appropriation is a big part of it, because it's such a deep cultural sensitivity is a fairly advanced topic and this world. This course gave me the space to really go into what it means to represent diverse perspectives and opinions and backgrounds on your website, but that really just means all your work. I kidding content, right. And I also talk about the actual practical ways you can look at making it easier for people around the world to buy from you, because that's what we're talking about. We're talking about running a business, where it doesn't matter where these people are in your audience in your network, you want to make it easy for them to work with you. And this is the other side of making it possible for people to build successful businesses regardless of where they are. Because whatever it is that you're selling, even if you're not selling, if you're even if you're not a business coach, you don't have to be a business coach to be empowering these folks. It's about who are you serving with your business? And where are they in the world and if someone is currently not represented in your in the audience that you serve in the marketing that you're putting out there? What can you do to change that?

Mariana Peña

30:49

Right, and I agree is not exclusively about I, I have the course I've been in it, I've learned a ton. And it will be a great starting point for people who are curious about Okay, so what would this mean for me and my business, even if you're not, if you even if you don't consider yourself like the CEO of your business immediately, or you see yourself as a contractor. If you see yourself as a freelancer, as a side Hustler, I think this is a very good starting point. I'm excited for people to go through it. I'm excited for people to just sit with this conversation. And I am very curious about your take. So if you're still here with us, if you're listening or watching, please share with us your thoughts. We would love to continue these with you, whether that is in the public part of the comment area. Wherever you are right now listening or watching or if you want to do it privately. You're more than welcome to follow us. Connect with us and share your thoughts with us.

Danbee Shin

31:50

Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. Mariana, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I know that when we first started talking about the idea of this podcast, we just really wanted it to be a conversation you and I would sit down and have over what did we have the last time like mango on ice? And yeah, it really does feel like one of those conversations and I'm so excited for everyone to get to listen to all the other topics that we've planned you next time

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