The Importance of Addressing Spirituality and Religion in Counseling

12:02AM Jun 28, 2024

Speakers:

Michael Jones, PhD

Keywords:

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counseling

beliefs

counselors

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spirituality

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holistic wellness

spiritual

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today

values

religion

integrating

grief

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Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Hello, everybody. My name is Dr. Michael Jones and I want to welcome you to another episode to the thoughtful counselor Podcast. Today I'm really excited to have our guest today is Dr. Jeff Klein. Dr. Jeff Klein is an associate professor in the School of Counseling at Colorado Christian University. He enjoys a variety of professional activities including counselor education, clinical practice, supervision, scholarship and service. For the past decade, he has served as a clinical director at a nonprofit nondenominational Christian Counseling Center located in Northeast Arkansas. He has experience working with individuals, couples and families and utilizing a holistic strength based approach. Previously, he has served as the president of the Arkansas licensed Counseling Association. Dr. Klein is a member of multiple professional counseling organizations and maintains an active schedule presenting on state and national conferences. In his local community, he engages in coaching, consulting, program development, fundraising, fascial, network, writing and providing psycho educational classes and presentations. He is also the founder of the northeastern Arkansas mental health professional wellness Association, a monthly gathering of professional helpers that support personal and professional world Maine is counseling specialties. And research interests include holistic wellness, spiritual integration, motivational theory and relational reconciliations. Jeff, I'm glad to have you on here today. Appreciate you coming

on. Yeah, thanks, Mike. I look forward to our conversation, knowing

you for an extremely long time, and I've always enjoyed being able to witness a time where he had to present together or write together whatever the case may be. It's always fun being able to do that. But for our topic today, our for me, I couldn't think of anybody better qualified, I felt like to come and talk about the topic for the day, because we're gonna be looking at the importance of integrating spirituality in faith into counseling. And so that's what what are our main focus is going to be on a day. But before we get way over into that, one, the first question I usually ask everybody is what what made you become a counselor out of all the different things the world you could have been involved in? What made you decide to become a counselor? Yeah,

man a great question. I think like, like so many people who find their way into the field, we went on a few detours before we got here. And, you know, I had a background in education got actually an undergrad and, and secondary education, and then also got a master's in history. But while I was working on all that I was also involved in campus ministry, and really enjoy just getting to spend time with young adults and get to hear their stories and help them map out you know, what's, what's my future gonna be. And so I actually went into campus ministry for a while and was also playing music at the time, me and my long hair buddies thought we were gonna be the next Metallica. But we were not able to monetize that. But ultimately, I just found that when I was involved in ministry, the thing that I enjoyed most was just spending time with people and and getting to work with them and and so at that point, I decided to go to Harding school theology. And I wasn't entirely certain what I was going to do and in terms of of the degree but just kept coming back again and again to the counseling classes and then eventually chose that as the path and then here we are, you know, two decades later.

And it to me it's always fun hearing people's stories of where you come from, especially especially with Tina knowing you personally you know, your history background and things of that nature and going through counseling degree and now you're a professor as well if I could say this is fun here people's journey they've gone through to get where they are. So our topic they were what we had a date for me. I think, whatever. Whenever we talk about spirituality and faith and counseling, there are some times is that, you know, we that topic is one that we shy away from, you know. And today I want us to kind of get kind of deep dive into those topics because I know I know your personality, I know my personality, we were put out really afraid to jump into anything. So I'll click this to be a good one for us to talk about today. But when when the first question I want to kind of kind of discover and kind of kind of jump into a slight when you when you think about integrating, like the top of integrating spirituality and faith into counseling? What have been some of like the barrier, the conflicts you feel like you have experienced whenever you're bringing this topic up? Maybe were those in counseling, or with a client, whoever the case may be? What are some of those conflicts of various being for you? Yeah,

man? That's a great question. I remember, all the way back when I was first interested in counseling, and I remember a lot of my friends that were getting degrees at secular universities would tell me, you know, this is a topic that's hardly brought up at all. And when I started doing some research on it, I found you know, for the first, I don't know, four or five decades of our profession, you know, there was this tendency to think, well, let's leave faith and spirituality are the folks who are involved in like clergy. And basically, psychology is perceived to be a secular profession. And so a lot of those early guys like Freud, and Jung, and, of course, the behavior is watts and all those guys came after him. And so the first five decades of our profession, there was this tendency that a lot of the writing a lot of the material was certainly, you know, much more secularized. And it was really, in the second half of the 20th century, I think that you had more voices in our field and at least more awareness. But I definitely think you saw, even as far back as when we were in school, there was a tendency that if you were getting your degree from a Christian university, there was a lot of emphasis on the role of faith in the counseling process. But I think a lot of secular universities tended to shy away or for a number of reasons, you know, fear that they weren't knowledgeable enough, the idea that it wasn't really appropriate. So I think there was just a lot of mixed messaging there. And I think, ultimately, thankfully, because we're counselors, and there's such an emphasis on holistic wellness, I think there's been greater openness in the past couple of decades. But I know a lot of our colleagues that did exclusively attend secular universities have said, you know, this is something that I didn't get a whole lot of training on, it's something that I had to kind of go off on my own, and do a little more research on because there wasn't a whole lot about how to effectively or ethically integrate faith into work with clients, so that if it came up, I don't really know what to do. Is it appropriate to talk about the role that faith plays in their life? Is it appropriate to have any level of self disclosure about your own beliefs and values? So I think there's just a lot of confusion, frankly, when it comes to this topic.

I know for at least from my perspective, especially in the classroom, when not when this topic comes up with my students. And and yeah, I think I kind of set them up a little bit, I'll ask them about faith, you know, and now in that there's a lot of what are specific talks about religion, for example, and there's a lot of negative connotation and is that is this connected to that and then when I talk about spirituality, there's a lot more, I guess, positive kind of thought processes that go with that. But it was without when the I guess the point I was kind of bring them back to is that it's interesting that even though we have these, everyone has a different mentality when it comes to faith and spirituality and religion and things of that nature. When we look at ACA, there's a actual division for spirituality and religion and it is all the all the same ones that we don't have a group does this just for one thing, so it's to me like it's one of the things is definitely important that we shouldn't be talking about by agree with you. It's not a topic that we we really have gotten into a lot because I think that sometimes that lack of training can affect how people you know how to even engage with or even know, okay, that this is something that that's important as a part of counseling, and even our ACA say, Okay, this is a part of what we what we do we even have a division that's dedicated to it. So it's interesting how those conversations come up. And, and, and I guess, the education we want to, hopefully we're providing to others about what that looks like. And because well, yeah,

and think about this, if you just look at demographics, I mean, obviously our culture's changing a lot in terms of core values and beliefs. But a lot of the surveys show that still a large number of individuals in American life today report having some kind of belief or faith system, so to completely ignore and neglect that you could actually argue that it's even unethical to just Get that out of the counseling process. If the client themselves says yes, I have some type of belief system, I have some type of faith, and that that's important and valuable to my life. So I think from an ethical standpoint, any and all parts of the client's worldview, including what they perceive to be, that gives them strength or hopefulness or resiliency, these are things that we need to be very knowledgeable of, and well equipped to integrate all of that into the counseling process, because so much of our identity as helpers, is helping clients pursue optimum functioning. And for our clients who do have some kind of belief system, faith or spirituality, that may be a huge part of what they seek to contribute to either their coping or their personal growth.

Yeah. I agree with so yeah. And that that's why becomes a topic that we want to we want to deal with. Something else I was I was thinking about too. And the question is like it when we're thinking about counselors in general, how do you how do you feel like counselors can effectively like navigate, integrating diverse spiritual and faith backgrounds into the therapy therapeutic practice, without imposing their own beliefs on five? Because I think that's that's the I think that imposing beliefs on clients is what people are really good for, is focused on, which makes a lot of sense. So what are some what are some practical ways of being able to implement this is as a part of Counseling without imposing?

Yeah, I think you mentioned referenced earlier a servic. So the Association for spiritual ethical religious values and counseling, one of the member divisions of ACA. And similar to like the multicultural competencies, they really give counselors, A Practical Guide to navigate, integrating issues of spirituality religion into the counseling process and an ethical way that involves not imposing your own personal beliefs and values, but being able to work with the clients Express beliefs and values. And part of that is just our own self awareness, our own knowledge, so that we can certainly avoid, to the best degree possible, imposing any of our biases or expectations to be maybe out of our own worldview, so that we can just get to know the client and be curious about who they are, what they believe, and what role spirituality and religion has played in their lives. So when I'm teaching students on this topic, one of the things that I talk about a lot is the difference in implicit and explicit integration. So part of that is knowing how your own beliefs shape and influence your own attitudes, your own sense of calling your own beliefs, why you see humans as having value, for example, but our explicit values really has to do with our use of language. And I think it's at that level that we have to be really aware of who is this person in front of me? And what is it that they believe and what is it that they value, because from an ethical perspective, what we're trying to do is create that safe environment for that client to be able to explore and talk about the influence of their beliefs and their values, as it relates to healing growth, pursuit of well being. So where I've seen counselors sometimes struggle with this is either they don't really have a lot of self awareness around their own beliefs, or they just feel compelled that it's my role to fix or correct the client or expect for the client to embrace my own personal beliefs and values, which all of us who've had much experience in the field know, would be very inappropriate. So I think this is something that is a huge part of the educational process. That is we're working with students or certainly supervisees, we're just helping them to navigate this so that they can be both more self aware as well as increasingly comfortable working with people in issues of diversity. Because there's a big difference in being a licensed counselor and being someone who would perhaps want to be in like pastoral care or work strictly from a ministerial position where they might might be much more overt in regards to their use of language or just kind of focusing on a specific theology. As counselors we have to be much more open and adaptive to working with the clients Express value system.

Will you put that about working with with their own Express value system because that is going to come out in a lot of different ways. I know even on my own intake forms I have for my clients. That is one of the things I asked you know, do you are you associated with any spiritual or religious groups or, or also just talking about how that affects them in their lives? I mean, the reason I asked that question is like you do like you say, is that clear? Yeah, so they because it's going to make a difference in how things happen in the counseling session, you know, so let's just say for instance, I have a client who is a part of the Muslim faith, that's gonna be important for me to understand that and know that because that could affect, you know, some of the counseling and things that we do. And especially if, if it's a time of year where they're celebrating a holiday, or whatever the case may be, or, or an observance that they could have definitely, they can affect counseling, it's important for me to know those things. And so it's so it's not just, I'm just trying to get this information, just for my own personal knowledge is because I want to grow. And I think at all, as we're, like you say, being curious about okay, what what does drive this person? And what, what keeps them moving forward? And what is what does our fate connect with all this, the more we know, that I think the better equipped we are, to help them in the long run.

Yeah, and I think for many people, we have a complicated relationship with our belief system in in, for those that are affiliated in any way with like a with like a organized religious system, you know, that can have both positive and negative influences on our life, we can't just make assumptions, that the client's attitudes or beliefs about spirituality, religion are all positive or all negative, it's usually a collection of those things. And I think the more knowledgeable we are about the different belief systems, even under the umbrella of Christianity, think about the amount of diversity much less when we get outside of the Christian worldview. There's just so much diversity of belief, and really coming to know the client being client centered, allowing them to teach us what do you see as the positive or negative influences that your spirituality and religion has had in your life, just our ability to do that communicates to the client, we're open, we're comfortable, we're ready for you to have those conversations, particularly when there's some ambivalence in your life about really looking at both the positive and negative influences that spiritual and spirituality, religion, maybe the dynamics of what that look like, and their family of origin or some kind of faith community they've attended. So that's why I think we see so many people are identifying now as being more spiritual than religious, in some ways, is just trying to navigate through sometimes some of the baggage of their experiences, while still seeing some value in in whatever their beliefs are. And so if counselors are either too rigid, or, you know, unwilling to have those conversations at either extreme, I think it can really limit the role and the effectiveness of what counseling can actually do to help people, again, get to the places in their life that they want to go.

And you alluded to this a little bit earlier, talking about really just kind of finding terms for things helps out quite a bit. Because if you just for example, if I use a term, Christian, for example, that can mean so many different things, is a term agnostic, that can mean so many different things, you know, so I think whenever anybody needs a term spirituality or faith, all those things are, though it can be very easy to assume that we know what that means versus asking a question that so I noticed on the intake form, you wrote down that you are this, this is what your connection is, give me a picture what that looks like. And that way I know how to kind of town to interact with you. And then when it comes to those topics versus majors that like you said, assuming that will they put down on this, that means that that means they're going to act a certain way. So yeah, clarity is really important. Yeah,

and this is really where if you just kind of look at the research in our field, they talk about things like the importance of genuineness and congruence on the part of the clinician, as well as I would say, in our disclosure statement, being very open with clients, about our philosophy about our approach and about our own beliefs, because I think that gives clients themselves the opportunity to make informed choices. A lot of research has also shown that clients actually prefer working with counselors who have a similar worldview. So I think the more that we're open and honest and clear in informing clients that can help. Of course, we know regardless, we're going to try to work ethically. But ultimately, in that process of getting to know the client. I think the more just knowledgeable and comfortable we are, the clients going to pick up on that and whether that's what we're communicating verbally or non verbally, as the client begins to talk about their experiences, including their beliefs, the more we're, as you noted, curious and open to say, tell me more teach you teach me more about how your beliefs, your values, your experiences, have influenced who you are today and what you're bringing into the room. And I think once we give the clients that acknowledgement and that affirmation, it really creates more of a, a safe, mutually respectful relationship, where they're more apt to talk about subjects that can either be taboo in some spaces, or maybe their experiences have been, hey, anytime we talk about these issues, I'm anticipating conflict or I'm anticipating judgment. Whereas one of the unique things about the therapeutic relationships is clients are given this space of non judgmental acceptance to where whatever they express as it relates to some of these issues. Ideally, the counselor is going to be operating from that place of genuineness and acceptance and all those Rosarian qualities that that make therapy work, we should bring all of that specifically to this topic of the client's beliefs and values.

I'm, if I'm misquoting you here, please tell me but what I what I'm hearing from you saying that if someone is truly being genuine, about what they're doing, and they are being curious, I think we can that kind of steered us away from the imposing our beliefs, own clients order, all the way around the table, because it's, I'm not making that session or that stuff about me, I'm making them more about, hey, my curiosity is trying to find out more about you, I want to be genuine with you. So So since I'm being genuine with you, this isn't about me, this isn't about me, making you think the way I think or believe the way I believe is more about me trying to find out how you think and how you believe so that we can know how to work together better.

Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, you've been doing this a long time, Michael, you. People are intuitive. They kind of know if you have an agenda. And if and if you're trying to convince them of something, or if you're just trying to meet them where they're at. And I think good counselors just do that they're there, they're curious about who this person is. And they want to help that person find greater clarity and congruence within themselves, in regard to how their beliefs, values, choices, etc. Align better. And I think one of the things that was very helpful for me pretty early on in my training, even though I was got my Master's in Counseling at a, at a faith based institution, I was fortunate to have a couple professors that communicated Listen, your calling may be influenced out of your faith, but ultimately, you've got to accept your limitations, you are not responsible for the clients, beliefs, values, life choices, and hopefully that can free you then to love and respect your clients that may be influenced by your Christian values. But But ultimately, our job is just to give that client the space and the freedom to make their own choices to to really honor that sense of free will, right that autonomy for them to become the person that they're seeking to become. And through that process, I've had clients who are not Christians, at times have a curiosity about Christianity, not because I have an agenda, but they're just curious, helped me understand this better, or I've had clients who want to understand world religions better. Now obviously, working within our scope of practice means we've got to accept in some regards our limitations, my goal isn't to try to be a college professor to my clients, if they're curious about worldviews, but those a servant competencies do talk about our need to have a basic knowledge of whatever the different worldviews are, that exist out there in the world. So when I've had clients of different backgrounds, be it denominations within Christianity, or be it various world religions, that has compelled me to spend some time doing more research so that I can have a more mutually respectful conversation with the client, if this is something that they're interested in, and are working on. And I would say that similar to any issue that the client brings in when my clients come in, and they may have a hobby, or they may have just anything that they perceive to be important in their life, in order for me to better know them and support them. I see that as something that I should get some education around so that I can have more meaningful conversations with them. I think the main thing that we that we have to do is just get out of the way of somehow feeling that I have this burden or this sense of responsibility to change my client and I think for many of the students that I work with, who do come out of Christian traditions, they have A genuine desire to care for people, but they sometimes also have a burden, that it's my responsibility to change the client or get the client to believe what I believe, which is, again, something that I think is a developmental process for them to increasingly come to these places of acceptance of I have to differentiate what my actual function and role here is. Because I'm not operating out of like a ministerial context, I'm operating out of the counselor context.

Yeah. And kind of backup with that to it. Whenever I talk to my boss, to my students, and especially when this topic comes up. One thing I always remind my students, you know, and I know, we've all been doing therapy for a long time, you know, and I will always remind them as I've been doing therapy for over 20 years, and I've yet to meet one client that we agree with, with everything, 100 years. And if I counsel for another 20, more years, is still not going to happen, I'm not going to find the body, but we're aligned on every single thing. And so and so. And I think results say that, it kind of goes back to what you said with that call that people have like to go into without also that, that feeling like they need to do something. But I also try to help people to see like that, that feeling of doing something that really is more about them, that, that they need to do that, versus them trying to find out more about the client and be able to say, Okay, I'm here to be a learner, I'm here to find out a bunch of background, I'm here to find out how you live your life and things of that nature. And all those things to me, it becomes extremely important in that whole counseling process, because now I've got that basis is not in Yes. So I do have a calling as, as you say to, to be in this space. But once again, I need to understand my scope of practice and realize that there are certain that my scope of practice limits me to certain things I'm going to do in that in that counseling space. And that's okay, because I use this term a lot. We're not really in the counseling session to co sign for our clients. And I think that's what they I think students struggle with quite a bit is that I don't ever cosign for my client, like they, they come in with whatever it is they're coming in with. And so my, my job is to be empathetic. And my job is to be there and be present with him to work through those things. And regardless of what the those things they bring to the table are isn't is not the same thing. And you say oh, yeah, I agree with 100% of what you're doing. Yeah, but it has nothing to do with it. Because that doesn't really make a difference. Because right? I'm not there to cosign there anyways, like I'm there to be a therapist to help them through what they're working through. And I think if hopefully, we can get that message out, that'll be helpful to our students. But yeah,

yeah, for sure. There's a, there's a, an article written a while back called the Waze paradigm. And it basically talks about these different levels of intervention. And I always use that as a helpful tool for clients to understand there is a difference in, again, what may motivate us and what we might see as our role in the therapeutic process from ultimately, being client centered and respecting that person in front of us and understanding that I don't always have to be an agreement, as you said, with with some of their beliefs or practices. I'm just there to be a safe person in their life, that gives them the freedom to hopefully pursue greater congruence and greater clarity around how they can make choices that they perceive to be best for them.

We've touched on his next question a little tiny bit, but not but let's let's talk go. So go with it, though. What do you feel like are some of the key benefits and maybe some potential challenges of incorporating, like spirituality and faith and the counseling? Especially when you're working with clients who have a different cultural or religious background? And you do? Yeah,

you know, one of the things that I've done for years is do a lot of advanced assessment. So when I think about a biopsychosocial, spiritual assessment, I'm going to make sure at the onset of our relationship, I'm going to have a lot of time reserved for getting to understand the client's culture and worldview. So that involves both items on the intake form that asked specifically about if they have any kind of spiritual or religious beliefs. But also what's critical is to ask the client, what role if any, do you want that to be integrated into the counseling process? And further, I have items where the client can then identify specific types of practices. I do work in the context of a counseling center that markets our services is Christian base. So some people might assume well, if you're saying your Christian base, that means all of your clients are Christian, right? Well, no, of course not. You know, I would say probably 25 percent of the clients that I work with would identify that they're really not interested in integrating spirituality and religion. So what do I do? I just honor that I'm not trying to have an agenda with them. But for the ones that might identify, Hey, I am open to that. And part of why I'm seeking out counseling here is because you are identifying in your informed consent in your disclosure statement. This is an area that you've had training and expertise in. And so when that's the case, I think it can be of tremendous value when clients see, hey, I can talk about things like guilt and shame and grace and forgiveness and all of these concepts that they are familiar with. It's part of their tradition that I have had specific training on, given my educational background and give them on professional interest. So these are very complex topics. And again, these are ones that even with these topics, I'm going to take great care to understand what has been your experience? What is your personal theology? What have you been taught about this? Maybe in your own tradition? What questions do you have? What fears do you have related to this, and I think the more that you're able to convey to the client, what your knowledge and competency is, it can help them make decisions about where they want that conversation to go. I have colleagues that I work with, that they haven't had as much training, for example, in going to seminary or really doing a lot of teaching around spiritual integration. So while they might be open to some conversations, it's probably going to be a little more limited than with a clinician who's maybe had more extensive experience.

And you as you were explaining that one of the terms you use, you talked about grief, you broke before for example, and we have lots of clients who will come in for for issues of grief or whatever the case may be. And the thing that I have definitely noticed depending once again, on their background, you know, so if this person is coming in saying if they are Christian, for example, if this person says that they are Jewish, or if this person says that they're that they're they're Muslim, or this person says they're agnostic, or what the case may be, and all these different cases, specifically grieving and it says I think that that's easily Luby's, we want to talk about that person's faith in spirituality background impact directly impacts how they end up expressing their grief. And so to me, it's important for me to understand that I need to understand what their thought processes are on those certain things. You know, we if sporting the topic of the afterlife, for example, thing that comes up sometimes in counseling, you know, basketball looks significantly different and wasn't you end up depending on who you're talking to, and what their faith and religious background near and so to me, it's like that I just thought this is such an important thing for us that we think we do miss out on because I can't really talk about grief, or I really can't talk about depression, or I can't really talk about anxiety, or, and other topics like that fully if I don't understand that person's, their worldview and where they're coming from and how their faith and stuff really integrates with those topics.

Yeah, I just actually wrote an article for yet to be published book on with grief. And one of the things that we were kind of going through in this was looking at grief within Christian traditions was many people hear the worst kind of unsolicited advice, following a significant loss. And so a lot of the clients that I've worked with, say that unfortunately, a lot of the people who are trying to be supportive actually make things worse, when they may use these like, you know, generalized statements or these overly positive statements. Rather than just kind of looking at you know, there is a rich tradition of what we would call like, laments literature, that when something bad has happened, people don't need like a positive reframe what they need is just an acknowledgement of how terrible this event is. I've also worked with clients, I had a client a few years ago out of a Muslim tradition. And as we were kind of walking through that one of the things he identified that was very important is just having a lot of rituals that involve remembering the person that that he had lost. So in that process, he brought in photo albums, he ended up writing a poem. And so these are just examples of as the client is kind of talking about who they are and what their experiences are. Sometimes what the good and bad feedback they've got out Have their family and friends and fellow believers in their tradition. It's not always a predictable or comforting process, which is why they're sometimes seeking out therapist is they're hoping for a different experience, they're hoping for an experience where those parts of themselves that are broken or that are seeking healing, that they could actually get something different than maybe what they've got from the people places in their current life.

I think whenever we start looking at our we look at culture and religion as part of our who we are, as of our multicultural sales, and we go from that perspective, that kind of changes things significantly, you know, if we're not not good as a really quick example, you know, if you just think about Christianity in a bubble for a sec second, and if you just add, culture on top of that, only look at those two different things. And you think about, and we're going to talk about grief just for a second here, and we're thinking about a funeral, for example, I've been to places where you know, where some of to both families are part of the Christian faith. But because of the culture, the way in which they deal with the loss is significantly different. And those and those different families are still in the same room can be the exact same can go to the exact same church sit beside each other every Sunday, but because of their cultural differences are there, the way in which they deal with their grief is going to look significantly different, how they will last is gonna look different. So that to me is like, it's important for, like I said, to make sure we're bringing that in, and intersectionality was looking at That's not the thing, we want to make sure that we are including this as a part of intersectionality. Because it is it because the more we talk about it and see that those many different parts working together. That's what makes it that makes us who we are. And so it's kind of hard to pull that one part out and say, Okay, let's just talk about everything else in life, except for this one part there. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Which is part of why I love the specific counselor tradition. If you look at counselors, we are the profession of holistic wellness, and spirituality, religion, multicultural competency. These are all core tenants of what it means to be counselors, right? If you look at a lot of the research back in the 80s, and 90s, just around holistic wellness, a lot of those wellness models, prominently display the role of client beliefs and client values. And so I think we are in many ways, ambassadors of wellness, to the lives of our clients, which means any and all topics are on the table. So whatever is important to the client, guess what, for me to be an effective counselor, I have to be knowledgeable, and I have to be equipped to engage with that client where they're at, and integrate into that counseling process, everything that relates to the cultural variables, as well as the the beliefs that that client might possess. And I think that's something that makes us unique and distinct from some of our allied professions that might focus, you know, more specifically on symptom reduction or problem resolution. I think a holistic approach really positions itself well, to engage with existential questions to really engage with, you know, the pursuit of optimum functioning. And by extension, being able to navigate the complexity of whatever the client's beliefs and values are.

And you kind of touched on this as I was going to kind of rolled into this next question here. No. So how do you feel like counselors can assess and address the spiritual needs of their clients in a way that fosters holistic healing, but also at the same time maintaining professional and ethical boundaries? What are some suggestions for that? Yeah,

you know, I think, for me, I've just really tried to be client centered. And I think the more that I bring to that session, an attitude and a disposition, of genuineness of curiosity, of seeking to understand, I think the client experiences that. And I think it creates the kind of relationship where clients begin to if they have the courage to look at, where am I at in my journey? I think so much of what it comes down to, in my experience, is I'm always trying to be considerate of the client's people place and purpose, the three P's. What is the quality of this person's support system at this time that they're coming into my office and in my life, right? What is going on in the client circumstances and environment? And then ultimately, What is it that gives the client purpose and meaning in their life. And I think counselors occupy a unique space in modern world, many of our clients are lacking in significant attachments and safe, secure, affirming relationships. Many clients don't have a safe place to really think about and talk about what's going on, in my circumstances, what risks should I take to pursue a degree, for example, or make other kinds of decisions about the existing relationships or occupation, those kinds of things. And then ultimately, I think part of the mental health crisis that we're having today is really about people not knowing who they are, and not knowing what would give their life the greatest amount of meaning. And I think counselors play a very unique place in creating these environments where they could talk about beliefs and values, they could talk about things like spirituality and religion, but what they're gonna get with us is probably not what they're gonna get on Facebook, or with their family, or, and all these places, where there's just constant conflict and opposition in disrespect. And I think for us, what we're trying to create is the kind of relationship that would say any, and all of these topics are welcome here. And you may have confusion about them, or you might have questions about them, regardless of what you're bringing, I want you to know, that I'm here with you and for you, for us to figure this out together. And there's times where I'm not the expert on whatever the issue is that the client has. And I'll be upfront and honest with them about that. But I might say, can we figure this out together? What Booker, what book are you reading right now on this topic, I'll join you and see if we can maybe figure this out together. And I think that's the unique role that our profession gets to play is we create safe environments, to explore the people, places and purposes of the client's life. That gives them something different than than what they may experience in most other contexts of their life.

I appreciate that. And I just appreciate the way you've handled these questions today. I know accent as we began this whole process a day talking about, you know, spirituality, and religion and faith. It's one of those those topics, we don't really get opportunity to really dig that deep into, depending on Okay, depending on where you work, or depending on what school you go to, and different things like that. And sometimes it just is one of the things that does not get opportunity to kind of get the light that like a need to get. And so I appreciate you being able to, to kind of kind of jump in with me today and kind of talk about that, and have one unplanned questions, but I forgot to throw this out there. As you, you know, thinking about you know, you talked about literature and things like that. So that's let's say, for instance, you have a counselor out that is listening right now, you know, faith, spirituality, religion, those that's not been a part of their background, things that nature, obviously, we have this service competencies, and then they can look at things that nature, any book recommendations you can think of, or anything like that you feel like it'd be, it'd be helpful for somebody that may be saying, hey, I'm interested in doing more of this integration, but like, this is just this is just not something I've had a lot of training. Yeah,

that's a great question. You know, there are a few books if we're looking at like counseling specific, I know, cash well, and young, edited a book called integrating spirituality and religion into counseling a guide to competent practice. I think that's kind of a really good resource, if you are within kind of the Christian circles and Christian education, which is where I'm at. I really like the work of Dr. Eric Johnson. And he's done a couple of books, foundations for soul care and God and soul care. That kind of takes this holistic approach to looking at creation as well as human relationships from from this holistic perspective. So I think both both of those resources are ones that I recommend to students and anytime I get to speak on these topics at conferences.

Well, I appreciate you coming today and helping us out with this. And it's been able to have opportunity to have a conversation about this important topic and hope to have you back on again sometime.

Yeah, thank you so much, Dr. Jones. It's been my pleasure, man. It's

good to see you as usual.

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