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brandee appling - 12:14:21, 9.00 PM

Amber Watkins52min

Speaker 1

00:51

Hi everyone, this is Jessica Tyler and we're here for another episode of the thoughtful counselor. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Brandy appaling. Dr. Appling is an assistant professor in the Department of Counseling and Human Development Services at the University of Georgia. She's a co author on an article published in the Journal of counseling and development entitled, using the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies to decolonize counseling practice the important roles of theory, power and action. Her expertise is in critical theories and research, qualitative research methods, school counselor development and preparation and creativity in counseling and research. Her counseling interests are in social justice and advocacy in school counseling, diversity and social justice in counseling, African American adolescent males, motherhood and counselor education and African American women. Welcome Dr. appaling.

Unknown Speaker

01:46

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1

01:49

Of course, we're glad to have you today as one of these co authors to kind of discuss what decolonizing counseling practice looks like hear a little bit about the story of how you guys came up with this manuscript that I found really powerful and really helpful in counselor training to help to heighten that sense of emotional intelligence, multicultural competency, and we'll discuss a little bit about the process of it. But first, I would love for you to maybe talk about some of your experiences, any credentials I didn't cover and kind of what brought you and your co authors to the topic that we'll discuss today.

Speaker 2

02:25

Okay, again, like I said, Thank you for having me, and hello, everyone. Um, yes. So like you mentioned, I'm an assistant professor at UGA, and capital education. And so I teach Master's, eds and doctoral levels, I'm counseling students. And prior to that, I was a school counselor and Metro Atlanta for 11 years, from every level P through 12. And so based on my prior experience, and my current experience, I also hold licensure in the state of Georgia as an LPC. I'm a certified professional counselor supervisor in Georgia, CCE approved clinical supervisor, and I continue to keep and maintain my school counseling certification in Georgia, for grades P through 12. So, yeah, those are, I guess, my main credentials and kind of where I stand when it comes to my clinical practice and experience. And then what brought us to this article, I believe you asked,

Unknown Speaker

03:26

yeah, even our colleagues kind of how this topic came about.

Speaker 2

03:29

So it really was a conversation, there was a special issue for JCD. And I really, you know, honestly, I just got a phone call from Dr. Donnelly saying, and she was like, I have this idea. And what I think is something that would be a really great addition to this special issue for JCD. That was focusing on the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies. Um, and it was really her her idea. But it's really interesting because it started off as an idea and kind of as conversation. And we really just kind of started grounding the conversation in our experiences in counseling. And so for me, it was not only my experiences in working with students from really very diverse backgrounds as a school counselor, but also what I was doing in the classroom. And so I happened to have, you know, taught the intro to theories class, and I was preparing an advanced theory class for my students that I was really trying to change up. And so it really just kind of grew from that special issue her her idea, her, you know, her passion, and then really thinking about where this is situated right now with me in my career. And so as a counselor, educator, supervisor, school counselor, I think that for me, like many of us, I'm always looking for ways to incorporate social justice into my work both in In the classroom and outside the classroom, and so when thinking about, you know, clinical practice, and especially teaching those clinical skills and theories to counselors and training, um, it really was something that I had been thinking about, you know, specifically about the theories. You know, I was, it's really important to me, as I was teaching, I was thinking about how, you know, I'm teaching all these theories is the same theories, I learned from 10 years ago, pretty much in the same order that I learned them using the same textbooks and supplemental resources. And that's fine, and it's great. But we're like 20 years past that, and I'm still in the same place. And so what can I felt like, I'm at that point that when I'm teaching this, that that really, you know, we're constantly teaching them from this communistic perspective, colonists perspective, this viewpoint and theories. And then trying to supplement it by adding like a multicultural lens or perspective on we're talking about with each theory how like how it fits diverse populations, or how to adapt it to other populations. And so in having these conversations with the other authors, we really were looking for a way to explicitly talk about how to decolonize counseling practice, and really make councilors aware of the roles of a theory power in action, and accounting process.

Speaker 1

06:18

So when you're talking about your co authors, we're talking about Dr. Emily Singh, who did the racial healing handbook I know. But we're also talking about Dr. Heather tree, Paul as well. And so maybe kind of going into as you guys started exploring this, maybe any surprising components of trends, you notice in the literature, a lack of literature, because I'm reading this article, you guys really did have to pull outside of counseling literature and go into some psychology, literature and other areas to really start bringing this method that we can start including in our counseling practice.

Speaker 2

06:48

Yeah. So I think that's probably what is the most surprising thing is that we were talking about this. And I think even really now, like, these are the conversations that we're having, these are trainings that we're seeing, these are presentations that are being held and people are participating in, but then there's really not a whole whole lot of literature about what this looks like, are having to do it. I mean, there's been a lot of literature in historically about, you know, decolonization period, and the colonization and, you know, in our country and of marginalized folks, but really, when it comes specifically to counseling, how do we do that? And what theories can we utilize for that, so it really had to was some deep conversation and some really, you know, thoughtful conversation about what theories to integrate, because then, you know, I mean, it's one article, so we can only put in so much. But there's all these social justice theories that really, you know, can work in counseling, right. Um, and that really aligned well, with counseling and with the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies. So I think I'm really which theories to pull how we pulled them, and then just how we had to go outside of counseling literature to really have this conversation and kind of spoke volumes. And it was really interesting,

Speaker 1

08:02

really interesting, I think, just showed how apt it was. So whether we're talking about intersectionality, critical race theory, liberation psychology, and it's interesting, because as I was reading this article, so much of it seemed to flow really seamlessly. But yeah, when you talk about trying to do course development, it's not something that we've been taught through the years, or even our professional development, it's a lot of the same theories kind of reiterated over and over. And then you know, maybe more of a superficial understanding, bring in a multicultural piece. So maybe we can talk a little bit about the background of decolonization and counseling, you've mentioned that word decolonization, and I know for maybe some new practitioners, or people who aren't Counselor Educators that may seem almost out of place, like how is their colonization in counseling? Can you expand on that a little?

Speaker 2

08:47

Yeah, so if we're thinking specifically about theories, if we think about it, you know, the traditional or classical theories, focusing really on individuals, and even on families, they weren't created with, you know, thoughts about oppression, they weren't created with a goal of dismantling systems of oppression. You know, that was never the goal. That was that wasn't really the point. And so these theories will you know, when we talk about colonization, they may actually reproduce that colonists ideology that's related to power, marginalization and oppression. And really, when we talk about colonization, it's really thinking about that dominant, white Eurocentric society and how those of us from marginalized populations have really been socialized to fit to adapt to acclimate to that, right, that, you know, we just have to kind of fit in that there's this sense of order and power and structural privilege. And this opposed normalcy to which those those from other cultures have to subscribe to and so and then learn to value and so really, it's where do theories fit in that and when we think about traditional or classical theories, like I said before, they weren't really created with the goal of dismantling any type of oppression or identifying, you know, how oppression how privilege, how marginalization plays, you know, plays a role or shows up in our clients in ourselves, in our sessions, or even in their experiences, right. So whatever brought them to counseling, those they really didn't focus on, on that piece. And so that's really where we were trying to go in thinking about this process. Um, and then we were also we're focusing on the multicultural and social justice counseling competency. So over the years, we have, you know, multicultural, we have a lot of talk about cultural sensitivity, and then cultural competency. And now we have our multicultural and social justice counseling competencies, or Ms. JCCs. And so, I'm really, if, you know, what we're kind of talking about here is if these traditional and classical theories are not presented alongside multicultural and social justice, competency and a commitment to those ideas, then, you know, we really are kind of still putting those Eurocentric views at the forefront, and working with our clients, and also really thinking about what is the role of, you know, the roots of counseling and indigenous practices and healing? Where does that fit into the traditional models, and they really don't. And so that's where this, this thought about, or this concept of decolonizing counseling practice really came into view. And then kind of extending it further on, you know, you mentioned earlier about, like, when you teach theories, and kind of that's where I was in my thought process. So, obviously, about what do we do for counselors in practice, but also really, how does that show up in our classroom? Um, so that we can really kind of start this, you know, from the ground up. And so yeah, you mentioned it, I mean, although social justice theories have a long history in counseling, um, they're often treated as peripheral, or that additional theoretical perspective, rather than as a foundational grounding for counseling practice. And so, you know, just an example, like, if we think about feminist theory, and multicultural theories, they're there. But they're often included, and they're often included in our counseling, training programs, but they're less often integrated as foundational knowledge for work with all clients. And like I said, in my memory, I don't even remember, in my memory, from when I started teaching intro to theories, like, they're at the back of a book, there's a piece at the end of the chapter that talks about multicounty, you know, cultural,

Speaker 1

12:31

it's like New Age theories, almost like a second or third way of theories.

Speaker 2

12:35

Yes, that's exactly what it is. And so, you know, that conversation is just not necessarily as deep as it is on those traditional ones. And so, you know, without grounding in these theories, you know, patriarchy, cultural framework, their key influencers are called our clients, and our EP students, too, if we think about school counseling, about their, you know, their clients and students experiences, and also the understanding of mental health and wellness, you know, especially in this climate that we're in. And so without grounding in some more social justice theories, you know, we just become agents of this, that upholding the status quo, rather than interrupters of justice of injustice, sorry. And so that's really, I think, at the forefront of this article,

Speaker 1

13:22

there's so much there to almost unpack, because I'm sure that there are clinicians who don't even understand this discussion of like, power in the therapy room, because they say, you know, I'm more person centered, or you know, I don't believe I'm the expert in the room. And so it's constantly reminding that it's like we do hold power in that room. So when a clinical and I have the power to hospitalized someone against their will have the power to document things in their medical record that they have to, you know, live with, with the rest of their life, I get to control the pace of therapy to an extent, you know, the timing of therapy, there is so much power in how I perceive the things they say, if I'm perceiving, maybe there's like, not parenting issues, and in my idea that it's like, okay, I can define it something like views, and completely uproot someone's life. There is a lot of power that we hold. And so I thought that was a really important thing that your article covered, also to talking about, you know, when we think about European ideals, because for me, I was just like, Okay, well, like how does that relate to my clinical practice? Like, I don't think I'm actively doing that. But in that idea of like meritocracy, I thought that was an important point that you guys made this idea, then that, you know, if you work hard enough, then you can achieve, you can do better, when so many of our clients or students, that's just not realistic at all, or we're missing so much as a part of that conversation. And so I think this article really helped kind of make a call to understanding more of those nuances that are in the room, that many times our clients may not even know is okay to bring up may not be aware to label it, but those are things that we can do.

Speaker 2

14:45

Yeah, and I think you may, I mean, you made some really good points and gave some really good examples there. And I think, you know, one of the things that the MSJC sees does is it requires the counselor and the client or students to really examine their privilege and marginalized identities and it doesn't leave that on one or the other, right? So it even forces us as the counselor to sit in space. And I might be a marginalized counselor with a privileged client. So what does that mean in this counseling session? So you know, that's even a concept or conversation, or reflection to even have, right. And so there definitely is that sense of power in there. I mean, we think about it all the time, when you think about it, when I stand at the front of a classroom, and I try to have a very, you know, equal, you know, classroom and think about sharing power with my students, but the fact that I have to even think about sharing power with my students, that in itself is power. And so, you know, it's not saying that, for people who might be new to this, like, there are accounting theories that are derived from social justice ideology. So for example, we have ecological systems theory, multicultural theory. But, but that's, and we only talked about, you know, four theories here, but RCT, you know, relational cultural theory, critical race theory, liberation, psychology, and intersectionality theory, those are really inclusive, and they align with the purpose of the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies, but I mean, I think, you know, yeah, you know, the idea of meritocracy, or the idea of, you know, I am, I only am, you know, sitting with this client in this space, and not really considering that they are part of this environment, whether it be you know, home, or whether it be society based on an identity that they hold, and how that shows up in the experience, that they're having, you know, the challenge or whatever it is that brought them to counseling, you know, what role does their environment play in that? What role does their race plan that their gender identity, their sexual identity, whatever, is at play in that, and those are the things that I think we have to think of, you know, we come out of a counseling training program, as a, you know, really new fresh counselor, hurry, therapist, yes, I'm always, you know, telling my students like, listen, because they're so focused on I have to have a theory, I have to have a theory. And so we walk out with a theory, I think I walked out as an existentialist without having, you know, ever really been a counselor. And then I went in this environment that I had a huge immigrant population, I had a ton of students for whom English was their second language, I had a good percentage of students like 10%, that identified as homeless. And so here I am, and I'm really being existential in my, you know, perspective, and not that somebody else can come in that same space with this same group of students who have been oppressed it, you know, experienced oppression in so many different ways. Um, every time they leave our building, they're they're feeling that way. Um, but I'm trying to make them fit in there to my adaptation of what I, you know, how I perceive existential dualism. And that's what I was trying to do for so long. And I'm like, this is not working. And so if I didn't even know about relational cultural theory, and I didn't know, you know, about these other other pieces, and so had, I had something like the MS. JCC, along with a social justice theory, to integrate maybe, you know, alongside or put be in tandem with my traditional counseling theory, I might have been a little bit more successful in that, instead of feeling like, you know, I wasn't there, maybe they needed to build connection, maybe it was more about the relationship we were having, instead of me trying to be so focused here and not take into consideration what happens when they walk outside this building.

Speaker 1

18:29

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's something I can think of specific clients where I was really challenged. And I think this article hopes to like heighten some of this critical consciousness, where you know, right now, it's very popular that, you know, boundaries, boundaries are really important. I see so many Instagram accounts that teach us how to do boundaries. And while boundaries are helpful in a mental health perspective, if we take out that consideration of culture and what culture means to that individual, that boundaries may be something that is seen as very shameful, or something that's very selfish. I think that goes along with your, your author's point about colonization, I'm focusing that it is an independent, individualistic society, and you got to look out for yourself. And I'm almost, you know, either traumatizing them or definitely trampling on this value system and of being a part of this village or this collectivist or, you know, drawing from ancestral wisdom and knowledge. And so it was something simple, we're, you know, I don't think teaching clients boundaries is wrong. But if you take out that piece of really understanding their cultural resilience, or cultural harm that's happened, how you can just be continuing to be pervasive in these very western notions, maybe even patriarchal notions without us even meaning and and thinking that we can call it being, you know, being good therapists are doing a good job in session.

Speaker 2

19:40

Yeah, I mean, exactly. And I think if you know, when people read the article, and they read through each of the theories, I feel like you can see how that shows up in each one, right? So if we think about like, intersectionality theory, for example, you know, I think what that theory does best, is really help us as practitioners or even our future practice. commissioners surely stop viewing our clients or students as one dimensional, and realize that people don't just experience you know, things like discrimination along a single axis. But there's multiple system of oppressions that intersect, and so in, like in thinking about what you just said, you know, we can we can harm them in that way we can dis disempower them, they walk out feeling less than power than when they walked in, we can further marginalize them, you know, and if we don't develop or implement practices and interventions that are appropriate and effective, but rather inappropriate and ineffective and generalize experiences as a collective group experience. Um, and we can also do that, and that's kind of when you just mentioned, what you just mentioned, made me think about that. Because, you know, like you said, if we are, you know, teaching about creating these boundaries, creating a space for yourself and being very individualistic, but we're not taking into consideration some of those other identities that they hold, we might be doing more harm than, you know, than good. And they, they may feel walk out feeling, you know, worse than they came in. And so it is, you know, it is about learning to understand it. And nowhere in here do we say like, throw out the traditional theories, like don't ever use them. Again, we talk a lot about using these theories in tandem, or alongside the traditional theories, with a perspective of the multicultural and socialist counseling competencies as well. So that we are holding space for all of these things. And so I think that's where, you know, it becomes really important to really think about what you just said,

Speaker 1

21:39

Yeah, I feel like a lot of these points that you guys made in this article, just helped me to fine tune some of my clinical skills, versus I need to throw out the tools that I've worked, and just replace them. So it's almost like I felt like a got a much more advanced tools to be able to use, that understands these, you know, intricate parts of our clients lives. Earlier, you mentioned, you know, indigenous communities, and one of the books I'm reading right now talks about decolonizing trauma work by Rene Linkletter, and something that sticks out to me, based on our discussion on decolonization. It's also this idea of like, why did you go into counseling, and for some of us, it was to save people, or we play that role in our family unit, and how sometimes these communities don't need saving from us, and how in the experience of indigenous people were, you know, Euro, you know, people thought that we were going to save these children, and then you hear, you know, these residential communities and the harm that it did, and the generational harm, and how much of the culture was sort of stripped away. So I think this discussion also helps to challenge this idea of what does it mean to be a therapist, a professional helper, and how we can still avoid that like savior complex that some of us fall into. And I think that many clinicians obviously mean, well, but a lot of clients in their helplessness, we don't sit well with powerlessness or helplessness. So then we go into Savior mode, and how understanding how some of these theories can supplement that theories we know can help to avoid doing more of that intergenerational or cultural harm.

Speaker 2

22:58

Yeah, I mean, I think that's really important. And one of the things that we talk about in here is, you know, one of the things that we want people to do is just to start asking questions, it really is, you mentioned it earlier about that critical consciousness. And it is about, you know, really sitting down with yourself looking back at the roots of counseling, you know, where did that all start? What happened to the additional practices of healing? Where did those go? And really sitting down and thinking about how counseling started? And you know, where we are? I mean, yeah, it's not, like you said, it's not about throwing it out. It is, it is something to assist me, right. I mean, I wrote another article on using reality and choice theory alongside RCT, because I do present oftentimes from a reality perspective. But RCT is in tandem with that. So it's not about throwing it out. It's just another way of thinking and another way of Internet of seeing how we can interact with our diverse clients. Um, and really, you know, when we think about indigenous people, and we think about going into that saver mode, and you, you hit the nail on the head. Yeah, I mean, sometimes we're doing more harm. I mean, we think about in general in the world, like program evaluation, and like, so often when I used to look at programs to implement in my school setting, you know, I'm just looking at the program. And then I started really understanding that this program, who was it normed on like, where did this start, right as you but as you're implementing it, and we're all implementing it all around the county, even though our county looks very different from place to place or school to school, same thing in communities, our communities look so different. And so if I take this prepackaged program and implement it here, and I'm implementing it for these indigenous indigenous group of people that say in this, you know, area in this place, how does that work for them the saying that it works in this suburban community over here with this different group of people, it can't possibly have the same impact, can it? I mean, that's just a quick to ask him something that speaks. So for me counting, you know, is the same, right? So we should definitely still consider to consider those things, we learn all these, these techniques, we learn all these strategies, these approaches. But the decolonizing piece is really, you know, looking more at a client or student as just a client or student, who is this person? What is their background? What identities do they hold? And what environment or community are they coming from? And, you know, how are the theories that I'm interacting with? How are they this is a person that does, you know, come from a historically marginalized background? Or has experienced depression? Or is bringing that up, and even in session about depression, or you know, their lack of power? Or whatever? How is the theory that I am approaching this session from? Or this client or student from? How is that further harming them? How is it further taking away their power? How am I asking them to assimilate or acclimate or value what I'm trying to tell them to do? Or offer them to do if I'm not considering those other pieces? And so I think, yeah, I think, you know, like you said, it's just, it's when we walk in, it's another way to think, and just something else to consider, and to hold. And if individually, you know, we start to decolonize syllabi, and you colonize our practices, and collectively as counselors and practitioners do that, then, and, you know, just gosh, where would we be then? Right? So yeah, cuz

Speaker 1

26:36

I feel like these concepts deepen our work. So if there's an example of you know, I have a female client, and she feels that she can't set boundaries with maybe her partners, I could focus on the surface level of communication skills and conflict resolution skills, or I can use, you know, concepts of like the patriarchy or culturally what was allowable when it came to setting boundaries, or working with, you know, romantic partners, and you deepen that sense of like feeling seen, know, and understanding some of the root of those issues versus focusing just on the behavioral level. So I feel this can help us to give more permanent change in an individual or shift versus focusing just very much in this specific situation. This is, you know, the appropriate way to respond. So I appreciate that. You're saying that, again, this can complement our work. You're in Georgia, I know that there's been a lot of discussion about critical race theory and how that threatens, you know, a group of people. And so being able to, so that we don't have to throw out these older notions that, you know, have been useful to us. But how again, can it like, stretch us and expand us and us not feel threatened by that, particularly as professional helpers?

Speaker 2

27:38

Yeah. Yeah. So I Yes, I am in Georgia. And so there are lots of conversations about critical race theory. And obviously, that's one of the the theories that social justice theories that we talked about, and wrote about in this article. So yeah, I do think it would be scary to just say, throw everything that you learned out, and start over. And this is where you're going to start. Right. And I don't think that that's, that's necessary for change to occur for us to affect change, right. Um, but also, you know,

Speaker 1

28:13

we can't just not have conversations about this, right, we avoid the conversation. Yeah,

Speaker 2

28:17

we can't just not talk about it. And Gone are the days to where we sit in a theories class, or multicultural counseling class, and we talk about this group of people, right? I mean, we talk about that. But we also have to make sure our students understand that that is a collective notion of those people. I mean, people look at me, they either look at it, they look at me, and they might see black, they might look at me, and they might see woman, if they know other things, they may know other thing, you know, identities that I hold. And so no longer Should we just talk about, like, this is how we counsel with black people with African Americans, right? But we need to make sure that our students understand the nuances of being a black woman, right, of being a black queer woman, or being a black queer woman that has a disability. And so that looks different than just, this is how we counsel and these are the things that we need to think about when we think about counseling, black people. And I think that's also something that I hope that people kind of get from, from this is it's all of that it's all of those pieces. And it's really just a shift our thinking and to move our thinking forward and move our interaction with our clients and our students forward and help our students that we are supervising are counselors and training began to brought in on that thought. And so yes, they may be a school counselor, and we may be talking about critical race theory. And guess what I just wrote a article about critical race theory in school counselors using it. And so interesting, are saying and it just was published this fall. And so, you know, but now what I've tried to talk to my students about is the same thing that the article talks about. He didn't talk about going into a session and saying, Hello, it's nice to meet you. today. We're going to be working from critical race. perspective, right? No, it's a lens through which I'm going to walk into a session and view this African American male that I'm working with realizing that when he comes and he's talking about skipping class, he's been written up several times for dress code or for attitude or for whatever, you know, that I may sit down and think about the environment that we're in, I may look at these structures and understand that racism, you know, persists. And that I'm, you know, I may just really be able to think about how these racial inequities in this environment, even in our school, in our society, how all that's related. And from my, you know, reality choice theory perspective, also, maybe able to merge those two together and really make some change, and not completely forget about his race, not completely forget about his identity in that moment,

Speaker 1

30:53

to how do I not oversimplify my work with students or clients. And I also think it's interesting when people feel uncomfortable in talking about exploring privilege, in counseling, exploring our sense of power in counseling, being able to understand that we are trying to also model learning from history, we tell clients learn from your patterns, learn from previous patterns, and that can help inform you for future patterns. So why as counselors or therapists do we feel it's any different as far as our counseling practice, like, we have to learn from history, and then help enhance that to be meeting the needs of our century now. So this arc also talks about exploring privilege and oppression in session. And I do think that takes some bravery from counselors, and especially dependent on maybe some of their social locations. That's something that for a while, as a woman, I felt like that was kind of tricky to try to navigate. And you also don't want to tell people, you know, an example like, you're a black woman. So let's talk about using an angry black woman. You also don't want to define people like you say and jump to it. So I guess maybe it was there any discussion about your guys's own sense of like bravery and discussing this? Because it is a topic that even in our field can be kind of touchy?

Speaker 2

32:01

Yeah, I don't know if we actually had a conversation about discussing, like how we felt about it, which is a really good question that you just asked, but I don't know that the three of us ever thought about it. Right? We're sitting down to write this article, basically saying that traditional theories, you know, we need social justice ideology behind that. And we need to be utilizing the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies. I think that in itself takes bravery. Yeah. So um, you know, we just, we just, and we know, it's necessary and needed. So I think that it was more about like, how do we teach counselors to do that. And so that's why at the end of the article, that there's recommendations for like questions to ask yourself, but also to ask, in practice, and thinking about that, I think that the multicultural and social justice, complex and competencies, you know, they call for counselors to do that, to develop their knowledge of theories that explain how our privileged and or marginalized statuses influence our experiences and worldview. And so I think more about, you know, first having that conversation with ourselves, and I think once we're able to have that realization in that conversation with ourselves, then it can maybe help us to frame how to have that conversation with our clients or our students. You know, the interesting thing is, I remember being in class when I was asked when this was when I was still a doc student. And I was asked, like, you know, to like, not list but I'm just I'm oversimplifying it, obviously, like, list my privileges and lists my impressions, and I was like, wait, I'm, like, I'm supposed to be friends. Like, I didn't, I didn't realize that, right. So I think it's more about creating that conscientiousness. So creating that thought to even sit down and think about that, um, because I don't know that I ever even really thought about the privileges that I held. Right. But, you know, depending on environment, we're in some of the things that our peers might experience we don't experience but it isn't, it was very important for me to sit down and think about how have I been oppressed? Or because I actually need to think about how other black women or other women of color might experience oppression and why. But also, I need to know what privileges I have. Because just because like you said, just because I hold this identity doesn't mean that I don't hold any privilege on them. I mean, I sit over here with a PhD. So I have obviously educational privilege. Um, and so, um, I think that yes, it's a very brave conversation. You know, it's kind of like when we teach students about how to broach race, and I'm in counseling, I mean, good gracious, that is a hard conversation, you know, for them to conceptualize and they have, you know, we make them practice and we have tons of questions and you really just don't feel it until you get in and do it. But I also think that you know, so I don't know how you feel, but I also feel like these students that we have now. I feel that like most of them are hungry for this. Like they You may not know how to talk about this, or how to frame it, but they are, you know, I'm trying to even frame like the word there. They are already conscientious.

Speaker 1

35:10

I agree. I'm also like, there's this boldness that we didn't necessarily have in our generation and the Prevention's where there was this sense of like, we don't discuss certain things. And then we start discussing certain things, but then it's like, am I using the wrong words, I can make someone mad. And so it's very tentative. We're now I think we even saw like, politically to, yeah, this newer generation, they're bold, and they have the words and if they get it wrong, like they're informing themselves, which I think is really uncomfortable for us, in a way, but also really enlightening and encouraging. Yeah, I

Speaker 2

35:39

think it is, too. And I want to say that and give honor to that. Because I think, you know, for me, it might feel a little bit like I need a little bit more courage to have this conversation. And not that some of them don't need the courage, obviously they do. But I feel like so many of them, even in class are able to build that with each other, because they're having those conversations in class. They're asking, like, students, they're talking to each other about how their whiteness shows up, or how they're, you know, um, you know, how their privilege in this shows up. And so they're taught, they're having those conversations. And so maybe I'm thinking about if we start these conversations in training. So if we're having conversations in practicing how to have conversations about privilege, how to talk to people about oppressions, you know, how to talk to people how to broach these conversations in counseling, maybe if we're doing that in training, it will help them when they get into practice to be able to already, you know, start the conversation. Because I sometimes feel like they're challenging meetup to have that conversation and to, like, figure out how this work. Does that. So you know, I go back, and I'm like, let me go attend this training on decolonizing my syllabus because they're like, you know, they're asking questions. And I think it's amazing, because like you said, like, I wasn't asking that, and I wasn't even taught half the things that they're being taught in the way they're being taught, you know? Um, so yeah, so I think maybe that that's a way to maybe start to have the conversation about power and privilege. But I think people just have to really own that if you're on this side of being the counselor that you're you have, like you said, identify the ways that you have power in this relationship.

Speaker 1

37:14

And that just because you have power in this relationship is not excluding, you know, challenges you've had resilience Have you had, because I think some of my curiosity about the discomfort in this topic, we talked about things like suicide, we talk about how to ask the question, how to ask the uncomfortable question. And that seems like, you know, students can work through that discomfort. But why then when we're talking about decolonization, and counseling, and when we're talking about power and privilege, why is that uncomfortable and being able to talk about it more. So when we think about what not to do, not talking about it, or waiting for the client to bring it up necessarily. Because Another useful thing I found from your article and helped give me language and as far as like other reading, too, so I definitely encourage listeners to, you know, read, look at the references about it, for sure. To be able to give language to a lot of this. So at least I felt like I was informed when I'd bring it up to clients and then feel like I was coming from a place of confidence, because many clients maybe haven't believed to find it or flesh it out yet, but you can give them language that helps to demonstrate how they feel or resonate with their lived experience.

Speaker 2

38:14

Yeah, I think that's completely true. And I think, you know, you did something, I mean, even you modeled earlier, how to sit down and have a conversation with yourself about the power that you hold. Um, as a counselor, as a therapist, I'm in session even as a marginalized, you know, even if you identify as, you know, having a marginalized identity or identity that you know, you society, whatever considers marginalized, you know, you even gave a list of like, ways that you still hold power in that. And so I think sometimes even just sitting down and creating that list, thinking about it, but just acknowledging, I think acknowledgement, too, is important. And so, you know, sometimes we question ourselves, we question history, we question ourselves, we question what we're doing, why we're doing it? And then we question the whole power and privilege conversation. I think if we sit down and write that list, like when somebody told me to list the ways I was privileged, that challenges you that challenged me. And so first is identifying that, yes, I have this power. And there's other ways that I have that. And so then you can start to dismantle, right, the place of power, the place of privilege in that session, but you can't dismantle it until you acknowledge that it's there.

Speaker 1

39:30

I agree. And knowing then that doesn't rob you from your earned experiences, it doesn't rob you from your worth. I sometimes feel like clinicians are telling share where it's very like black or white thinking that it's like if I have these discussions, I have to feel bad. And it's not necessarily that but definitely feel challenged or feel that discomfort then. And I think your guys's article also gives a really good reflection questions like you know, how your perspective has changed who who is responsible for bringing into society these changes? What are obstacles that people might face? I really think that that was useful. So that way, if fair because sometimes I like my own creativity and kind of like asking the hard questions to myself, This really helped give some prompts about that, that I think can be useful for therapists to really check in with themselves. And also the power of saying, you know, thank you for the correction, I think some of us feel so nervous to do good counseling, quote, that we feel like we can't make mistakes. And something as simple as if you you know, Miss gender someone or do something that does not align with these social justice competencies. Just saying thank you for the correction, and then doing the effort to correct yourself the same way if you didn't pronounce somebody's name,

Speaker 2

40:36

right, rather than walking away offended or, you know, really embarrassed, offensive defensive. Yeah. And I think I think that's important too, because we talk about, you know, helping our clients, or our students to sit in discomfort, and that counseling can be uncomfortable sometimes, right, change can be uncomfortable. Um, so why is it so bad for us to feel that discomfort? You know, as the clinician as a practitioner? Why is it so bad for us to feel that discomfort on the other side, um, but we get, we can expect that of them or tell them, that's what you can expect from counseling, and it's okay. And we all tell them, It's okay to make mistakes. And it's okay to, you know, do this and say, I'm sorry, and all that. But then like, yeah, like you said, when we get on the other side of like, oh, you know, but not for me. I don't know, right? It's not okay, for me, it's okay for them, but not for me. And so, yeah, really having, you know, opening that that conversation, and you mentioned it before, I think you talked about the questions there. But I think asking questions that focus on like, the WHO THE what the how, you know, where these traditional counseling theories emerged from? Um, what was taking place? What was the socio political context? You know, back then I think all of that makes a big difference, and can also help promote that critical consciousness. I mean, if we just think about it, you know, I don't want to call out like a specific theory. But if we think about these roots, if we think about the if we relearn the roots of counseling, you know, what we know, is that what right now what's often exemplified is the perspective of those predominantly Eurocentric men. Right? So Parsons, Adler Freud, we know that I mean, that's just, that's just where it is. And that's what it is. Right? That's history. And so those are, but like you said earlier, those are built, you know, predominantly individualistic, patriarchal, Western Eurocentric thinking, until we really sit down and shift our mindset and go back and look at the, at the roots of counseling, and not taking anything from that. But again, like I said, at the very beginning, that was developed in for a different reason and a different day in a different way. And so really sitting down with that, and helping kind of that start the conversation and that start the framing process. Because even they had power and privilege in developing the theories and being the theorist. I mean, if there was the appaling theory, and I sat down in session, like, huh, how many people are gonna challenge me? You know, um, so maybe it's like seeing

Speaker 1

43:15

the beauty and our field evolving versus feeling threatened by that. Because again, I think that's a parallel process that we expect it like he said, we expect it from clients to tolerate that discomfort in the growing and the stretching. For wise clinicians, do, we feel like we're absolved from that as well. And that we can also humble ourselves to it as well without feeling defensive. So any recommendations that you have for listeners, if they want to kind of follow up on this resources, you guys really found useful or just any general recommendations?

Speaker 2

43:44

Yeah, so I guess for me, recommendations would be one just having opening up and having discussions, right. So with other colleagues, students, practitioners, counselors, clinicians, everybody, I think, just having the conversation, um, but also really, you know, I know, I mean, also digging into the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies first as a guide, and then maybe going into the social justice, theory, literature, and also the questions like we spend a lot of time thinking about the questions because, you know, we're talking about moving towards action. And so I, you know, also sitting down with the questions and actually going through those, his work and doing that work, but also, that whole issue of JCD was really a spent it was a special issue, and it's already out and it it really is framed on that multicultural and social justice counseling competencies, and so looking, you know, looking at that, and then other recommendations, so again, we listed four theories that we felt really, really aligned well with the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies. Um, there. There are other counseling theories specific theories that acknowledged culture and power traditional counseling theories that do that. And so we just think that, like I said, these counseling theories can be used in tandem with traditional theories, but, you know, really looking at these theories, but looking at other ones as well, and seeing, you know, I mean, it's, it's like we tell students, when we're teaching them about finding their theoretical orientation, you know, it's not to say that one of these four is going to be the one that really aligns with you aligns with you, as a clinician aligned with you, as a human aligns with you, and practice. These are examples of ones that we feel really do that the work, but we also, if you read the outer circle, we also really list out like how the tenants align with, you know, the MSJC C's, but also with decolonizing. power and privilege and counseling. So looking at other social justice theories, and really digging into the tenants and seeing how they do that as well. Again, like I said, these are just four that we felt, you know, really strongly fit this, but we could have written about a ton more, obviously, yes, yes. I mean, obviously, there's books, you know, on these, you know, we all like to tell students, when they're writing always go back to like, who, who's the developer? Who's the Creator shows the original source? Yes, go to the original source and see why this was created, why was RCT developed? Right, what was developed out of feminism, and, you know, go see why, and then, and then look at that, and go from there. So definitely go back to the original source as well.

Speaker 1

46:35

I agree, it's like this discovery piece, because then you have to complement it with your lived experiences versus just expecting something to just be kind of like fed to you or handed to you this, you know, perfect model. And then I assume if people are listening, they're interested in self development or progression. So I guess my recommendation to is if you feel yourself getting defensive, as you're listening to this discussion, or you know, reading books about this, maybe kind of checking, like, why you feel triggered, and helping that to kind of exploring and start digging into that. And you might really be able to reveal either systemic programming, familiar programming, generational programming. And that goes back to that, you know, where you kept using dismantling How can we dismantle that to continue to evolve. And for the listeners, again, this article that we're referencing was in the July 2020, issue of the Journal of counseling and development and volume 98. And it's entitled, using the multicultural and social justice counseling competencies, to decolonize counseling practice, the important roles of theory, power and action by doctors, Emily sang brandy Appling. And Heather tree, Paul. So Dr. appaling, what's in store for the future, maybe some other projects you're working on? You kind of alluded to a few other articles, but I'd love to get a chance to hear other things that you're working on.

Speaker 2

47:47

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that this work is done. Right. Like I said, you know, earlier, I attended a session on decolonizing my syllabi. And so for me, part of my next piece of this journey is supporting my students in doing this work. And so making sure that I'm integrating this into pedagogy, and that I am, you know, really practicing what I'm writing about and talking about, and so in teaching them how to do it as well. So that's something big that I'm working on, um, I have really gotten into pedagogy lately, because I'm teaching it. And so I've really gotten into like critical pedagogy and, and teaching, and just really sitting with students and listening to them, and their desire for more critical pedagogy to be taught and to be introduced to. And so I really want to do something along the lines with critical pedagogy. But otherwise, like I said, Yeah, I have done just, I do see RT ally and try to engage in research using critical race theory.

Speaker 1

48:54

And then also just on a panel to right at our national conference.

Speaker 2

48:58

Yeah, so aces and that in Atlanta, talking about school counselors using critical race theory. So obviously, there's work to do there on supporting our school counselors who are in these What 20 or so states that have started bans on school counselors on schools, period, teaching critical race theory. I'm so looking to see where I can lend my voice there and be an advocate in that role, but also teaching school counselors how they can still work from that paradigm and work through that lens. So yeah, just kind of keep him you know, my feet to the fire and trying to stay involved. And I'm into it. And I really I know we talk a lot about clinicians and counselors in private practice and settings, community settings doing this work. But you know, school counselors are taught the same theories and so I'm really working in on theory with school counseling students as well and looking at that literature and digging in there. about how they can do the same thing and, and really use this work in working with, you know, students in peace two through 12 settings.

Speaker 1

50:07

So really, if anything, I would think that those are the students who are the most vulnerable in this of being impacted. And I know talking about things like the school to prison pipeline like this is really a piece that school counselors can help advocate before some of these systemic barriers have already kind of affected our students lives more permanently. Yep. Well, thank you, Dr. appaling. For your time and being able to kind of expand on this article that I know I found really useful. My students are really ina dove and absorbed it and really felt challenged by it personally professionally, which usually means that it's something that's a really solid quality when it challenges you on multiple ends. And everyone this is another episode of the thoughtful counselor until next time.

Unknown Speaker

51:19

The Thoughtful Counselor is, Désa Daniel, Raissa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Tyler, Stacey Diane Arañez Litam, and me, Megan Speciale. Find us online at concept.paloaltou.edu. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University’s Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at concept.paloaltou.edu. The views and opinions expressed on The Thoughtful Counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don’t necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors or of our sponsor Palo Alto University. So, if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at thethoughtfulcounselor@gmail.com. Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.

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