Justine Mitsock I appreciate you carving up the time making today happen. I know things are crazy, especially now that the world of school has started, you've got multiple kids and, man, we just never know what we're walking into day upon day.
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me, Adam. And yeah, that's what makes life interesting. So, we're here, we're present, and we're gonna make it happen.
All right one and that we are what's so great having people like yourself on, especially when you come through multiple channels. So you originally referred to me through john hate, I don't recall how you guys know each other, whether you work together or what not, but you know, spoke highly of you. And then lo and behold, it turns out we both share a very close friend and Larry Sprung, so it was so nice to connect with you immediately hit it off. And there were just so many things about you, whether it was your experience, or mostly really just your disposition that I gravitated towards. So I'm excited to sit down with you today, even though it's virtual, and get to know you let the audience get to know you on a different level. And then just discuss some of the accomplishments that you've had, and how you going about doing them. So you're ready to rock and roll.
I am ready to rock and roll.
Alright? introvert? extrovert? Or do you kind of fall somewhere in the middle is what they call like a centravert or an ambivert?
Well, admittedly, I don't think I had ever heard of a centravert before. But I would say I probably would identify with extrovert the most. I really get my energy from being with others, from learning, hearing different perspectives. I think like anybody else, I love my alone time. I can be alone. I enjoy it, but I really get my energy from others.
Interesting. So are you an outlier as a recovering mathematician, computer science and actuary?
Well, have you heard the joke? Right? What's the difference between an introverted actuary and an extroverted actuary?
No.
Have you heard that one? introverted actuary stares at their own feet. And the extra very one stares at the other person's
never heard that. I did here we What is it? called the task and I don't recall. But it's like, you know the difference between why an introvert and an extrovert Have voicemail.
No what it's like. So the introvert doesn't have to take the call and it's the extrovert can't wait to doesn't want to miss the call. I can work on my delivery. Early bird or night owl?
A little bit of both. I've actually never been a big sleeper. But I think lifestyle has more dictated when I need to be where. So yeah. Today, like you said, we have school we have kids, other jobs and obligations. So I'm usually up pretty early.
Just you're just rolling with the punches.
Yes,
gotcha. Is there a hinge moment in your life, where you're almost like what we were talking about prior to going on the show when you're talking about your friend, anything that might have happened to you or an epiphany in your life.
I wouldn't say an epiphany. But I'm certainly somebody that is always listening and learning. And I remember one particular speaker, his name is Hal Gregerson, that his whole shtick is question everything right? He has a book out there, I believe it's called questions or the answer. I was raised in an environment where the boundaries were set, you're supposed to play within the boundaries, right? And success is really maximizing, you know what you can do within those boundaries. But when you start questioning things, when you start questioning the assumptions that go into whatever it is that's happening, or even question the status quo, so why do we do it this way? Question the intentions of the person or persons asking you to do something, it opens an entirely different world. And it's super interesting. Once I took that perspective of really questioning everything in a constructive way. It really opened up a whole new set of variables for me.
Love that. Now, is that along the lines of like a Simon Sinek, to some degree, I don't know if you're familiar with him, like why he's big on?
Not so much. It's more like don't assume, right? So we all have biases that we go into when we either are at work, or we're with certain bosses, or different influencers. So it's really taking all of those biases out and really questioning like, what is the job to be done here? What are the SAS measures, but why why are we doing this job? Like what is the actual goal? Can we work within this platform? No. Well, why? Right? It's really it's not in a negative way. It's really trying to fully open up and understand what the job to be done is
interesting. So tell me something that most people just don't know about you.
I would say There's probably a couple things but one is really I love to work with my hands. So even though I'm in corporate and I go to an office, and I've commuted my whole life, I'm someone who really just likes to tinker. I'm not an artist, I really can't paint or draw or anything awesome and creative like that. But yeah, I grew up tinkering with an old car. So it would run, really just fixing up whatever needed to be fixed up. I ran my own lawn mowing business, I used to bus tables and drive boats around that I really just enjoy, like working with my hands.
Well, what Haven't you done? is like the most interesting man in the world. And maybe you could be his compliment. There's, there's a Dos Equis commercial in your future.
That'd be great. If they want to pay me to sponsor them. That'd be wonderful.
Oh man. So let's transition over to the professional side. If you don't mind, give everybody just a quick synopsis of your professional experience, your expertise, if you will.
Sure. Absolutely. I mean, I started my career as a pension actuary. And I think I'm one of those few people in that I've met, that sat down in college and said, I want to work with math. And I want to be an actuary, and I went out and I became an actuary. But I really just loved the consulting aspect. I mean, that for me that I'm just a consummate consultant. So really working with CFOs, CHROs, is to problem solve, right to be creative, to understand their business needs, and be able to take my expertise and my knowledge, and help them come up with solutions. So that was the foundation of my career. And I really enjoyed that. never really looked to do anything past that. But opportunities always sort of came up. And I was always open to listening to what other opportunities could provide me with a different learning experience or a different perspective. So I moved into the corporate world, global benefits, working at Citigroup, just an amazing company, amazing set of people, great leadership, and had a great ride there learned both benefits and compensation from a global perspective, and really enjoyed my tenure there. And then again, there was somebody who I knew in the industry who said, You know what, we're building a role like this, for someone that never had this type of role before. And that was certainly intriguing for me to be able to take all of my expertise, and actually apply it and be the one to build it. So I joined to build the total rewards, space for the US.
Yeah, it's so interesting. You're you're building things heats not directly with your hands, but you're building a common theme here that's happening, building boats, long building businesses, you're a builder in some way, shape, or form. Maybe in a past life, who knows, there are a couple things that you actually touched on. And I thought it was really important, you said, it's important to be open, or that you're always keeping an open mind, you might expanding on that a little bit, because I'd love to kind of go down that rabbit hole a little bit and kind of talk about some other things. So I'll leave it at that for now.
Sure. And I do agree with you, I think it is a bit of a rabbit hole in the sense that it can kind of take us in different places. Because I think, for me, I'm not necessarily driven by I want this title or this status, or this particular paycheck. I'm driven by, you know, am I learning? Am I contributing? And am I happy, right, and I correlate what I'm doing in my career, my job very much to a relationship. But I always say that to people that I know, you're not necessarily always happy all the time, but you have to be comfortable with what you're comfortable with. So I wasn't looking for any of these opportunities. But when people that I knew, and that worked with me, and that trusted me, came to me and said, Hey, this is something that I think would be a good fit for you. I'm going to have the conversation for sure. And even if it doesn't lead to a job would come out of it, learning something or hearing a different perspective or meeting somebody new. So it's never last time in my opinion.
You nailed it, it's an investment. That's an investment of your time. So why do you think most people are closed off to hearing about new opportunities? Or do you think people just aren't getting into or hearing enough about stuff? Or do you think people in general, are just closed off and focused on the busy rather than the important?
I'm not sure the answer to that, Adam? I think there's a certain amount of drive I think that people have and goals that they have. So maybe they're really set on a certain path. Whereas I tend to be very open ended as far as a path and I still remember an interview question. Or somebody said, Where do you see yourself in five years it was one of those traditional like, while you're looking for the answer that you want to be The CEO or some sort of big success story. And I said, to be honest, I don't know, I don't know what the opportunities that are going to be presented to me or are going to be. So for me, I'm open to the journey, rather than, you know, having a set path and then dealing with either successes or failures on that path.
It's interesting, I wonder who the person back in 2015 was asking if they saw themselves in five years sitting in a pandemic at home?
I don't think anybody answered that question appropriately.
Everyone nailed that in 2015. So yeah, that's interesting. I like the openness. But I'm just more curious from the people aspect. So I used to own an executive search firm, and I was in recruiting for I forgot how many years 10-15. Who knows, but I wouldn't It never ceases, ceased to amaze me when reaching out to somebody to ask if they're interested in hearing about something. And when people would either just either no or hang up. Granted, you saw that more at the lower levels, because they didn't necessarily understand the value of the big picture and the importance of relationships and understanding how the higher up the food chain this little more scarce, the roles became. But nonetheless, it still happened. So I just never cease to amaze me. But let me ask you this, you've got a bunch of skill sets that I've identified why I think you've been so successful. I'd love to get your perspective on what do you think the three biggest skill sets that you've acquired that have led to your success?
Yeah, I think that's a an interesting question, because it kind of forces me to, you know, look back on something. So I think authenticity is probably one that comes to mind for me. And I didn't call it then back when I was, was just who I was. But I've become very comfortable with who I was from very early in life. I was adopted, I was the only minority in a very homogeneous environment. And kids are mean, right. And I had to deal with that from a very early age. So by the time I went to college, I was like, I'm good, I'm good with who I am. I'm, I have strengths, I have weaknesses. But I had a sense of confidence, and stability that I think other people my age at that point didn't have. And I think that really helped me to be able to, you know, tackle some of the things that I tried to tackle. So for example, applying for an actuarial internship when I was a sophomore in college, I didn't have the grades, I was never really strong academic student. I didn't have the pedigree. I wasn't coming from one of these universities that they recruit from. But I was just went to the local dress barn and got myself a suit and just said, I'm here, and I'm going to try and I ended up getting the internship which led to my first job in the actuarial world.
That's a great story. All right, two more, that's a good one. And I and actually, I'd like to piggyback on that, because I think you mentioned authenticity. And I'll tell you one of the reasons authenticity is so important, because when you're authentic you and there's studies behind this there, oh my god, Google or to call forgot the study that they did his project oxygen, I think is what it's called. And they identified the most successful teams. It's a long project that they did, but they identified their most successful teams, the cornerstone of the success was something called psychological safety. People felt psychologically safe around their leaders. And then that was because they were, people were authentic, they could be comfortable with each other with each other. And when you are comfortable, you're going to get the best Justine's, and what that's also going to raise, and that's going to lead to trust. And you mentioned even earlier about the importance of trust people that you trusted or trusted you reached out to you and provided you opportunities, whether it was a conversation or even rules that came to fruition. So kudos to you on the authenticity. Okay, two and three.
Yeah, well, I couldn't agree with you more Adam, and you stole my thunder, because trust and authenticity, to me are just critical. And I think they play very much into relationships. So I think number two, I would say empathy. You know, it's interesting, in the past five or so years, this has been a hot buzzword in the industry and elsewhere. And it's just something that's an eight in me, and I'm not tooting my own horn in the sense of saying I was ahead of the game in any way. It's just, I think my natural default is always to consider somebody else's perspective. Right? So when somebody comes to a meeting, and they, they're not collaborating, and they're getting frustrated, I don't sit there and go, Oh, okay, I have to convince this person that my idea is right. I have to think like, why are they so invested in this? What does it mean to them and if I don't know, I can asked, but when I, when you consider everybody else's perspectives, it just again opens up that a question and the goal and it makes it easier to build those relationships.
That's huge. And it's so ironic. So last night on my other show, I had somebody on his name's bill O'Hara, and he's written a book, he does marriage counseling, relationship counseling, and he was just talking about how important that empathy is and to be about and to make yourself available to kind of move your ego to the side and to be able to listen and get someone else's perspective. He is saying that is paramount for building real relationships. So So again, kudos to you two for two. Alright, what's number three? I
feel like I'm passing a test here. I would say the third, I would say curiosity, I think I'm led by just wanting to learn wanting to see a different perspective. And I think that couples with the authenticity in their mind to admit that I don't know everything, or that the way that I think we should do things isn't necessarily the only way or the best way. I'm extremely, leave myself extremely vulnerable. Because I want to learn I'd rather learn something and be curious and be my idea goes out the window, versus getting my idea in and really limiting myself, frankly, and whatever company I'm working for, to to just my ideas, quite frankly,
we got another whole other rabbit hole on curiosity here. So I'm just going to check the box and say, Okay, one of the things that just struck me about you was your ability to connect and the way that you viewed relationships, again, coming back to some of them, I'm assuming it's more I guess it's a result of these three that you talked about, you're curious to get to know people you're curious to learn. You've got this empathy to be able to make people feel very comfortable. Again, the authenticity because you're showing who you are. So people are gravitating towards, towards you. And I think that's awesome. And as a result of these things, it's a relationship soup. That should be I guess, the feature on a restaurant menu is Justine. So Have you always been a people person? Or is this something that you've worked on? It sounds like growing up might not have been easy?
Yeah. And I'm not going to pretend that that it wasn't easy. It was more it was distinctive, right? And it's part of, you know, what shaped me to be who I am today. But I do love people and I have a very small family. And I've worked my way through college and been really reliant on your friends emotionally, and sometimes financially. And I think relationships in a lot of different ways are extremely important.
Why? What are they? What's so important to them? For you've relied on them? So obviously, the finance person, is there anything else? Like is there? What makes them? Is it having someone that you can call if you're in a bad mood? Is it advice? Is it a job? Is it all the above?
Well, I think for me, it's actually being able to help somebody else. But for me, I get satisfaction when somebody trusts me enough to rely on me, right? They trust me that I'm not going to judge them, they trust me that I want to take the time in my relationship is genuine. So for me, it's actually about when I get that call, and somebody is Oh, I was at very simple example. But I was at a Boy Scout event on Friday for 911. And I saw another another mother who was kind of in between meetings, and I know her husband works horse nights. And I said, Let me look, yeah, let me bring your kid back. Let me let me do whatever it is that you need to do, because I'm here and I can do that. But it's actually the person letting me do that. She was trusting me to care for her child or that I'm going to do whatever needs to be done so that she can mentally relax and go do the things that she needs to do.
That's awesome. What do you do to proactively to stay up with those in your networks? I would say I actively ask for help. And huge By the way, and most people don't do that. I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's a great and you never hear somebody give that answer. So so keep going. I apologize for interrupting.
No, that's I was gonna say and it's reciprocal, right and proactively helping others. I think one one thing that I really enjoy doing is when I talk to recruiters right here about a job, my first thought is, do I know somebody who would be a good fit for this? And recruiters always like to talk to me because then I you know, three or four names rattle off the top of my head and I get on my texts and I asked somebody if they're looking or I tried to make that connection, and I really enjoy that and it helps me keep up with what comes buddies are looking for. But it also helps me keep up with what colleagues and friends are looking for in their career journey, and seeing if things could be a good fit. But like I said in the beginning, also asking for help, because people like to be asked for help, right? People like to, they like to help, right? They want to feel that they are trusted, and that they have something to offer and can contribute to your career.
That's great. What Tell me about LinkedIn? What does that do? What does it mean to you? How do you use it? Do you use it,
I do use it, I use it quite a bit. I'm not on Facebook or the other more personal social media. So LinkedIn, for me is the only platform that I use to keep me current on what people are doing and where they are. So I'm on it quite a bit to really make sure that I stay connected. And frankly, as I mentioned before, if I hear a recruiter has a job, or I learn a job, and that is open, I really take to my LinkedIn to try to, you'll find some of the people that that I know might be a good fit or help advertise the role.
Something that when we first connected that I was impressed with, and I'm very disappointed with most people that don't have the same answer as you. But you actually you knew people who were on your LinkedIn. Which I thought was great. Yeah. And you didn't just know them, like you knew them. A lot of times, they'll say, Oh, I noticed that you knew Larry niblick, Larry, Larry, when I was like, Oh, you know, I'm assuming your work together, or it looks like you might have gone to school. I mean, like, I'm better at making the connection than they were to their own. So I just don't I don't, I'm not comprehending that I'm not sure what the rationale behind that listening, I guess, some kind of sales function. But I'm just curious to get your thoughts on how you're using LinkedIn, just for those that are out there that are listening, maybe because it's a great tool, if used properly. So I think that we could learn, when you reach out to somebody, what do you do? And at the same time, when people reach out to you, who are you accepting? And what's your interaction with that person?
Yeah, and I think it's evolved over the years to but I would definitely say, and everybody in my contacts, either I worked with them or had some sort of relationship with them. What I tell people who are looking for jobs or looking for something, I always say, you're welcome to look at my network. And I'm happy to make a connection with anybody that's in my network, right? So for me, the filter is I should be comfortable making some sort of connection with that person. I admit, the older I get, the less my memory serves me, I'm usually very good with with names. So there are definitely some who I have not interacted with and in several years. So I don't know if I can take every single one and say, yes, this is exactly what they're doing now. But I really love staying connected, keeping up with where people are going, seeing the commonalities, you know, two people that I know end up at the same company that just happened recently, where two people from one of the big brokerage firms went to the same smaller one. And I connected them to saying, Hey, you guys are both people in my network, who I really enjoyed working with. And now you're working for the same company, and you should meet each other.
That's great. Let's talk a little bit more about that. The fact that you took a minute out of your time to do that, you connected to people, they're both going to benefit, the new person is probably going to be that much more appreciative, because now they got another insider on the track, make them feel a little more comfortable, someone who can give them again, more insights and just perspective on an organization. Why do you do that? What do you get out of it?
I think the satisfaction of helping people and thinking that just that little connection may not be critical to anybody's success. But maybe that one connection was just to helpful in everything that they have to deal with. Right, because one of one of the people had relocated, so there's just a lot of change going with people a lot of things going on in their day. So if there's one step that I can make a little easier, and maybe maybe they didn't connect, and maybe it's not meaningful, but if it was then great.
Yeah, I love that. So can I give you a tip share something for LinkedIn, not on the introduction side, but on the for LinkedIn in general. So it is hard to remember, they say you're only able to really kind of 150 people is essentially what they say the average brain is capable of handling in terms of friends, acquaintances, stuff like that, that you really know. So in this world, things are moving exponentially. You're meeting way more people, you're interacting with a lot more people. So the beauty of LinkedIn, it's a free database. So what I encourage people to do is if they when they first connect with somebody on LinkedIn, is to acknowledge right out a little more for both parties. So saying, hey, Justine, great to connect them. Really appreciate That john Hague made this happen. And it's such a small world that we happen to know, Larry sprung, we had a really good conversation, and I'm looking forward to continuing the dialogue, or whatever that might be. So what would happen is now here we go, let's say that we you and I don't talk about a year, two years, maybe even five years, but maybe somebody wants to meet me or I come across somebody that wants to meet you. And I don't remember, you don't remember who the heck is Adam conners guy, I don't know who he is. But I'm connected to him. And I know that I guard my connections pretty, I keep them pretty tight. So I must know him in some capacity. I go into LinkedIn, I go into our history, the message where we communicated, and bam, there are some information that recall that helps me to recall what we talked about who he is, and hopefully, it'll This is some type of feeling, ideally positive. That can help make both parties feel good about what the relationship is and how we left off. You follow all that?
Absolutely. And it's like filling that gap from the old school where you'd have to kind of find the person's email and then make that intro. And I don't, I'm marking my age, but we used to, when we were in consulting, have palm pilots. And remember, Oh, I love the Palm Pilot. But I remember I always put the connection. And in the notes section, I write something that I knew about the person. So either they have kids in college or their their spouse is also in the same, the same type of business, your whatever it was distinctive about that person so that I can, it can help me recall when I didn't reach out to that person later on.
golden nuggets, great habits. I love it. Your success leaves clues, and you're dropping them left and right here. I got one last question before I let you go. And I'd love to know, what's the best advice that someone ever gave you was,
I think the best advice. Well, the person who gave it probably doesn't even remember. But I was when I was at Citigroup, and Sallie Krawcheck was the CFO, and she was speaking at an event. And I remember her saying, take the job that nobody wants. And she was talking about, you know, how her career journey got her to where she was, especially being a female in the financial services. But I remember that resonated, because her perspective was, if something is broken, and you nobody wants to touch it, and you go in and you tackle it, and you fix it, like, isn't that great for everybody? Right, you learn, you're the hero. And then you can really tackle anything. And you just sort of iterate that, versus going just for the top title or the shiny penny. And I that really stuck with me. And I remember because she was so successful, and she's so smart. Her advice was take that job that nobody really wants to touch and it can pay out in spades.
Well, the irony of her being the person first of all, it's great advice, number one. Number two, the irony of that, at least from my perspective is I don't know if you're familiar with who she ended up with some of the things that she did, but she founded something called, it was formerly 85 broads, and it kind of came at Goldman Sachs, and it was a women's networking group for Wall Streeters. And it's expanded and it's since become something called elevate networks, or elevate network. And actually, my friend Christy Wallace is now the CEO of it. And she was actually on my other show, and Christy's fantastic I could talk for hours about how amazing she is. But one of Sally's quotes that one of my favorite quotes from Sally is that she comes out and says networking is the number one unwritten rule for success in business. And she stands behind that and it's I think it's really ironic because I think that you are a fantastic networker. You've built great relationships. Obviously, you've worked hard. I love the advice. You've dropped many pearls of wisdom. This has been a really good conversation that I wish to just continue and continue. So we might have to have you come back. I would be honored. Thank you so much for having me. Make it a great day. You too.