Hey, Cubicle to CEO listeners. I'm Stephanie, a certified professional organizer, and host of organized and productive with The Organized Flamingo. On our show we cover organizing and productivity topics that affect everyday people like you and me. So join me on Mondays to explore what the best organizing and productivity solution for you could look like. You'll especially love episode 63 with Colleen Blake Miller, psychotherapist and speaker, where we talk about the power of letting go of mental and physical clutter. She shares her tips on how to let go of things that aren't serving you and how to recognize the signs that clutter is becoming a problem in your life. Add us to your podcast cue after you play this episode on Cubicle to CEO. Okay, passing the microphone back over to your host and my friend Ellen Yin.
You're listening to Cubicle to CEO episode 247. As humans we are subconsciously attracted to or trusting of things that feel familiar. Today's case study examines how executive assistant Kiri Mohan, who also doubles as a coach for freelancers who work corporate jobs use this to her advantage to double her revenue in one year, all while working 25 hours a week as a solopreneur. By implementing a simple reflection framework, Kiri studied the brand colors imagery copy social media, and websites of her ideal clients and started reflecting similar qualities in her own brand presentation and messaging. Doing this not only attracted the exact kind of clients that Kiri wanted to work with, but it allowed her to increase her pricing from working $40 per hour trading time for money to $5,000 per month retainer contracts. This reflection process is brilliant. Let's dig in.
Welcome to Cubicle to CEO, the podcast where we ask successful founders and CEOs the business questions you can't google. I'm your host, Ellen Yin. Every Monday go behind the business in a case study style interview with the leading entrepreneur who shares one specific growth strategy they've tested in their own business, exactly how they implemented it, and what the results and revenue were. You'll also hear financially transparent insights from my own journey bootstrapping our media company from a $300 freelance project into millions in revenue.
Hey, everyone, welcome back to the show. Today I have with me, Kiri, who I mean, she already got grilled by our producer Sabrina we were laughing about that in the greenroom. But it was all for good because the data that she is bringing to the table is incredible, all on how she was able to scale from $90,000 a year to $150,000 a year in revenue, completely solo. So this is without team without contractors. And she used a framework of reflection, which I found really interesting. So we're gonna get into all the details in just a moment. But first, Kiri, welcome to the show. And what is your Cubicle to CEO story?
Hi, Ellen. I'm so pumped to be on the show. So pumped. So I want to say thank you for having me. My Cubicle to CEO story is I started as an assistant when I was actually only 15 years old. My dad got me a job part time. And I continued to work part time I found an assistant role and I was like working operations assistant role in college. And then I actually went to college for meteorology, something totally different. Yeah, broadcast meteorology, on TV doing all doing all the things. So I started applying to those jobs. And I don't know if you know anything about the TV industry, it is really low pay for a lot of hours in the beginning. So I was getting offers. This was 13 years ago, but I was still getting offers at like 20,000 a year for 60 hour work weeks.
It was nothing in middle of nowhere. And I was already married at that point. And so I sat there in a crisis being like, do I really want to do this, but I'm throwing away my degree and all this stuff. I ended up being like, okay, I don't want to do it. It's just a lot to get to where you want to be like a chief meteorologist. So I started looking around saying like, what am I good at? And I was looking at wedding planning, I was looking at professional organizer and I ended up doing executive assistant. Now I'd never done that before. But I kinda was like, I had kind of dabbled in it or been in the system world.
So I said, that sounds good, because I have my weekends off. And I'm only working like Monday through Friday nine to five. So I went into that role, and I quickly got bored. I mean, I was good at it. But it was the same thing over and over and over again. So I thought you know what, I can do this from home. Why am I even going into an office? So I went online and I stumbled upon freelancing. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that sounds really cool. And then I got really nervous cuz I was like, Oh no, you have to like get have your own clients and charge your own rates. And it's not a steady paycheck. What who does this? No. So I got a new job. And then I got bored again.
And it was the same thing. So then I started be like, okay, you know what, let me just try this freelance thing. And I did, and it ended up working out. And I'm sure you hear that. So it's like, it wasn't anything that was always on my mind, it was just like, let me take my skill set and create a lifestyle that I want to create on my own hours. And that's what I ended up doing. And so I was within, I would say, I registered my business in April, I started marketing it in like August or September, and I was able to quit by July, the next year of my role, my full time role. So that is like, I was legit in a cubicle. And then I went to running my own company. So it is really a Cubicle to CEO story.
That's incredible. And you know, it's kind of ironic, because that is the name of our show how many people when I ask them that story, sometimes I word it differently, like, you know, what was the catalyst that led you to entrepreneurship, because surprisingly, there are actually a lot of people who come into entrepreneurship, or maybe not so surprisingly, because it requires so many different types of skills don't come from a traditional corporate cubicle background. So it's always, you know, kind of fun for me when I actually interview a guest that truly experienced that Cubicle to CEO journey.
And by the way, I think it's so smart, the process that you took of finding clarity through essentially a process of elimination right? Of okay, let me try this thing, okay, like this aspect of it didn't love this one so much. Let me adjust and tweak and try different things until you really found a great fit for you. And I think so many people, when they're starting businesses or wanting to change direction, they kind of feel like they need the clarity from the get go in order to move forward on anything. But I think your path actually is much more realistic and useful, actually, and in determining what you really want to do. So thank you for sharing that Carrie. All right, I already kind of alluded to this reflection framework and how it really helped you almost double your revenue in a single year, again, completely solo.
So anyone listening who wants to be making consistent six figures as a solopreneur? This case study is definitely for you. Kiri, can you first define your reflection framework and the psychology behind this approach?
Yes, so a lot of this goes back to branding. But that's just a very holistic overview. Okay. So when I was working as a freelancer, and doing hourly pricing, because that's what everyone quote unquote, says you should start with, right. And I started looking at ideal clients and the ideal industry I wanted to work in and I wanted to start raising my rates. And I didn't know what to do. I actually, instead of looking at what other freelancers were doing, I looked at what what is my ideal client or ideal industry doing? What does their websites look like? How do they charge their pricing? And even like, how do they put their social media posts out there? What kind of social media platforms are they on? Right?
Right.
And from there, I just kind of mimicked them and copied them, because I knew if I was going to approach them, or if they were going to be interested in my services, people gravitate to what's familiar, they gravitate to what they're comfortable with. And so if you're in a healthcare industry, and all you're branding across the board is like green and blues and tans, which is very common in that industry. Or if you're a startup, and it's some oranges, and reds and blues. That is what you should be using in your branding. So you're reflecting back to them what they're used to seeing, and then they're more likely to be comfortable with you reach out to you and want to work with you. So that's it at like a very basic high level.
Make sense. Yeah.
So with that, I was able to say, Okay, I'm charging hourly. I don't want to be charging hourly, I want to be working with startups. And specifically, I was looking at, like startups in Chicago, in New York City. I was looking at PR, social media, startups, agencies, that kind of lifestyle. So the next step would be like, Okay, what colors are they using? And I really did break it down into a spreadsheet, I would just go to random companies, what colors I took the common colors, used it in my own branding, reading my web page, how are they even formatting their web pages? How many tabs do they have? What kind of case studies do they have? What kind of testimonials? Where does that all go?
And I would just mimic all of that. Put it with my own spin on it. Where are they on social media? That's where I'm gonna focus on actually back then I started on Twitter. And then now then I moved to LinkedIn. So I kept watching the trends, right? And then finally, how do they price themselves right? And that was a little bit more tricky to figure out. Not everyone does that. But I noticed that a lot of it was not hourly, a lot of it was an all inclusive price. And a lot of it kind of revolved around either like the turnaround time how fast these things get done, or how available, you needed their agency to be.
So then I just implemented that into my own and as an executive assistant, it's kinda like executive assistant freelancer. It was like how do I even do that? I mean, these are like agencies. Not doing EAA work. And so what I ended up doing was saying, okay, if someone wants me to be available from let's say, like 7am to 9pm, if they want me to change their flights, if they want me to do all these things during that time period, and they want me to get back to their emails and their clients emails within 24 business hours, that's gonna be the highest tier.
So then I was able to jump my pricing like, I think I was charging, like three or four years ago, even just like 14 bucks an hour. And then it was like, Okay, well, let me try $1,500 a month, let's see what happens there. Then, you know, more people started coming to me when I was using this reflection framework, and they were finding me. And I was like, Okay, I'll do 2000, and then 3000, and then 4000. And so then I was able to slow down on how many like, not slow down, but cut out clients, and just have about like, anywhere between five to seven, between three to 5000 a month. And it was all based on like, how quickly do you need my services?
And then it's like, it really can apply to so many people. So let's think about like a website designer, how quickly do you need a web page? How many calls do you need? When you're making that web page? What kind of branding do you need? Do you need SEO, and then when you have that, everything they want in a dream list, and then you include the turnaround time, or availability, depending on your sector freelance, you're going to be able to charge a lot more. And so that is like the essentials of the reflection and how to move away from hourly and not stick. Because there's other aspects too, right? Like I see a lot of freelancers go Sorry, I'm rambling now. But there's a lot of freelancers who also do like, oh, but I do package rates. I do $800 a month, and I say, but what is what is your contract say? They're like, oh, but it says includes 20 hours like, well, if you have that in there immediately, the clients can do 100 divided by 20. Okay, that's $40. Yeah, right? Immediately, because I do it. When I see freelancers coming to me saying, Here's my services, it's not really a package rate, you're not building a lifestyle business, because you're still need to hit all those hours.
I agree 100%, because really, you are to your point, still charging for time, you're just bundling the time upfront, right? Instead of your case, you're charging for convenience, access quality really results. I mean, when when I think about retainer packages, and why I hire contractors or freelancers I'm really looking at what is the result you can drive in my business? And do I feel the value of the impact of that in my business matches what you're charging for your service? And if it does, then it's an easy hire. Right?
So I love that you were able to kind of build those nuances into your pricing. And I actually do have some further questions about the pricing as I was going through your background data that you submitted yesterday, I want to get to that. But before we do, I want to backtrack for a second. So you started by looking at your ideal clients and how they presented themselves to the world. And I remember reading in your pitch for our show that your ideal client, at least at the time was edgy startups in large cities. And so I kind of wanted to dig into this little piece because I was curious prior to making the shift in your marketing, where you were using this reflection framework, was this already your ICA your ideal client avatar? Or was this a new client that you shifted to after you decided to start mirroring and attracting the people that you most wanted to work with?
It was a new client after I started mirroring. So I think the key difference in this is thinking about the ideal industry, okay? Because when you think about ideal clients, and a lot of people talk about this, like find your ideal client? Well, you're just looking at like one person, right? And that one person unless your ideal industry is executive leadership coaching or something like that, where it's usually like one person, right, right. I was just saying like, I want to work generally with a male, aged 30 to 50. I'd like them to make this much money. That was kind of too vague. And you can't do a reflection framework off of that. Now, can you find a male who is 30 to 50? In an edgy startup in New York City, absolutely. Right. But that's where you the reflection framework comes in. Because you're starting to look at like, oh, the ideal client is really underneath this larger umbrella that you need to focus on.
So why edgy startups then like, what was the attraction to that particular industry? And what would you even classify just for our listeners sake, what would you classify as an edgy startup just so we can kind of start to understand what your brain was looking for when you were scoping out these potential clients?
I think I want it. Honestly, it's kind of psychological. Like I don't want to be working with the people I was working with in corporate.
As far away as possible on the spectrum, right. Yeah.
That's probably honestly what it was. But I think it was more like I liked the vibe, and I liked that a lot of these edgy startups needed. A freelancer assistant, but the or an assistant and they couldn't afford one full time. Like that was the clincher there. So then I started being like, Okay, I like the edgy startup because they've usually got younger people, they've, they're really on top of trends. A lot of these places are doing like the four day work week, they have like this really flexible lifestyle.
So coming in as a freelancer, I'm targeting a culture that I also really enjoy working with. So that was I think, if we look at other factors as well, that is how it plays into it like these people are going to be accepting of the fact that I might have my child home with me at times that I might not be there on a split second basis, even though I tried to offer that my contract is 24 business hours on purpose. Right, right. So I think that is the main reason why I went for these edgy startups, because culture wise, they also worked with me, right?
That's really smart. I actually, now that I'm thinking back to it, when I have conversations with people about their ideal clients, or even in reflecting on my own. I don't think team culture or company culture to your point is something that people often consider. But that actually makes complete sense why you would want to go after companies, like you said that maybe have a non traditional work week or work hours, who are more likely to be open minded to how you structure your work hours. And so really smart. That's a great tidbit. Actually, that's my little homework assignment for all of you listening today.
Take what Kiri said and reflect tonight, literally reflect and think, what what is the type of lifestyle that I want to build around my business? How do I like to work? What am I work boundaries look like? And do I work with clients whose cultures I guess? Or beliefs, ethos, whatever it may be, because not everyone's b2b, but thinking about does that match how I live my life because you're probably going to find a lot more synergy with people who think similarly about how they approach the world.
So anyways, love that little tidbit, you kind of already started to share with us some of the things that you were looking at when you were in this process of research, right? You were looking at their colors, their brand colors that came up multiple times. By the way, my corporate job right before I became an entrepreneur was actually in healthcare. So I was laughing a little to myself, when you were talking about the blues and the greens and the tans, that is so true. Oh my gosh, scary. It's like every single website, I cannot, it's ingrained in my head anyways.
But isn't that interesting, though, that every single one of those has that right? And you should be capitalizing on that if that's who you want to target like a health care company. That one, I know where that all comes back to.
And it's interesting, because so I have a friend Michelle Lewis, she's a color psychology expert and fascinating book that she wrote all about, you know, the subconscious branding in colors and how they evoke physical and emotional responses in the human body. And, you know, blues and greens like there's a reason healthcare companies choose those types of colors, because it creates like, trust, it displays like a level of like institutional education or whatever it may be so many, many deeper reasons, I'm sure we could dive into just that one aspect, but other than colors, and other than looking at, let's say how your ideal companies structure their websites you mentioned like, Okay, if you click this button, it leads to this page, and you kind of try to mirror that in your testimonials or in the flow of your website.
What are some of the other factors that you were looking for? During this process? If you can list everything you can remember, I know that would be so helpful to our listeners who maybe want to test doing a similar thing with their clients.
I looked at their photos, okay, so I looked, are they using stock images? Or are they using like images of their employees? When they have professional photos? What do they look like? Are they black and white? Are they round? Are they square? Are they rounded corners? Where are they positioned on the page? Do they have an about them like that comes down that's foldable or is it like it takes you to another page? Where are the testimonials located a lot was around website when I was doing this because I was my website was I don't want to use bad language, but it wasn't very good. I was like updating my webpage when I was doing this and like mimicking all of that, right.
And I don't want to go back to colors. But I do want to say for a second beforehand. My favorite branding colors are actually pastels. They are pastel green, and pastel pink. I love them. I love that combo. I was pulling in a lot of female solopreneurs with that combo. So that's just like a little new on that. Right? I was looking at their social media heavily. Okay, so it's not only like where do they hang out? Look at their copy. How do they write? How are they even on their webpage? Like a lot of these edgy startups have very familiar language right? Like hey, so you want to be cool like us? This is how you should write your copy right like stuff like that.
So then I knew I could change my copy I looked at what their social images some of them were swearing in their socials like just to, you know, be a little bit edgy. I never did that. I was too scared. But it like showed what kind of tone of voice Do I need to have to attract these people to me? And of course, where are they hanging out? What are they doing? Are they writing articles for big publications, one of the clients who I found wrote for entrepreneur. So that was like, okay, that's something that I'm going to make sure I understand. And I'm reading and I'm sharing in my own social posts, because I know people like this are also reading and sharing this kind of stuff. So it goes beyond the webpage. I think the web page was a big one, because I know when they land on it, I want them to contact me.
And we're, yeah, want to, you know, work with me. But it went beyond that. And it really was just this whole mimicking, which sounds like I'm just copying, but again, I was not copying, it was like, How can I present myself as someone they want to work with that they can see vibing with them.
And, you know, that really is rooted in such and I'm not a obviously not a psychology expert. I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like it is rooted in such a deeper psychology of human behavior around you know, community and that tribal mentality of wanting to relate to people who you feel are, you know, us versus them that kind of whole mentality. And so I can totally see why people probably felt an instant comfort or trust upon landing on one of your web pages, knowing that, oh, this person gets me like Kiri gets me. So really, really smart.
By the way, I feel like in another life, if you had chosen not the meteorologists route and not this route, maybe you could have like been part of the FBI or div of some sorts, because your eye for detail is incredible, like just listening to you talk about, you know, even the shapes of the photos, or like whether it was an accordion fold or not. I mean, that's just so interesting. I, I don't know, you know what our listeners are thinking at this moment. But if you find this as fascinating as I do, I feel like I'm never going to look at someone's website the same way. Like I'll be observing all these things that normally I wouldn't be looking at.
So, so, so smart, thank you for sharing some additional examples of information you are collecting. One of the things that I found really interesting, I'm reflecting or looking referencing my notes, is you said, I looked at job openings for a position similar to what I did in a company, or you know, the type of work you'd want to do. And you took words and phrases and rework them into your own webpages. So was this like you scoping indeed, and LinkedIn jobs and really just like reading tons of job postings for corporate like executive assistants?
Usually corporate or a startup eat any kind of office will say office executive assistant role? Absolutely. So what I would do is I would go and I would collect all these different job openings. Yeah, and take that language and those terms, and it wasn't just SEO, it was more like, Okay, this is what they're looking for. So I better have that on my webpage. So then they're like, Oh, yes, a team player. But it was more than team player like the way they would phrase it. If you read enough of these, it's kind of like going back to the websites and looking at enough of them, if you read enough of them.
There's some underlying, and of course, they might just be copying from others, but there's some underlying common threads in there of what they are looking for. And so I use that to my advantage and said, Okay, if this is their ideal person, I'm going to just put this on my webpage. So I had them sprinkled throughout my webpage. And again, this is not related to SEO, I'm not very good at SEO. But it was just this mentality of if this is what you're looking for, I can give it to you. Because too often freelancers just say this is what I'm good at, right? They don't say like, what's that person actually looking for. And when you find that, that job opening is gold, because you just pull it all, and put it into your web page.
Such a smart distinction. I don't know if you can remember this far back. But if you can, was there a phrase, for example, or a way that you used to describe something prior to this practice of reflection that once you started combing, and really doing your research, you realize, oh, the startup culture talks about this same thing in this way, we mean the same thing, but they talk about it in this way. And what was like one of those phrases or one of those swap outs if you can remember,
I remember I had a lot of like, organized terms and detail oriented in my website. And I took that out. And I remember collaborative being a big one. So team player being a big one, because as you know, startups are all about, like, everyone has to just pitch in sometimes and do what they can. And it's very bootstraps. Yeah. So collaborative, and team player was something I remember adding quite a bit of dedicated. That was a term as well. Dedicated, dedicated team player. They want you drinking the Kool Aid.
Ill be there for you on your team, yeah.
So those are examples that I took. I can't You're right. I can't remember every single thing. Know that. I remember the team players collaborative, dedicated those kinds of terms were are sprinkled often in those job openings. Okay,
I love that you gave this example. And I really wanted to have you pull out an example for our listeners, because I think it's a, it serves as a great reminder that even if you and your ideal client are talking about exactly the same thing, it can come across so different just in the small nuances of the language that you choose to describe something. Because, you know, being a team player requires you to be, you know, let's say committed or detail oriented. But to your point, if that's not how your ideal client would phrase, that sentiment, then it doesn't matter, it still goes over their head or doesn't land in the same way.
So you know, if you've been a longtime listener of our podcast, then you know, I always say use your ideal client or your ideal customers language, not yours try to really get inside their brain. So it feels like you're reading their mind when they're reading whatever you write. And I think, carry your example really display that so well. I wanted to also ask you, you know, you mentioned the web page was kind of where you started with really mirroring your ideal clients.
But you also looked at their socials, was there anything else that we haven't covered yet that you felt was really helpful in the research process to look at maybe something outside of the box that people wouldn't think, perhaps to look at in their research process?
Not really, but I do want to emphasize the copy. Okay, I do coach students as well. And one thing I do tell them is to pull out what the copy is saying kind of like with that dedicated team player kind of stuff. Yeah. What are they trying to go for? And the feeling they want to convey when you land on the webpage? Is it expertise like we are the expert in this? Is it trust, you should trust us when you work with us? Is it transparency like other companies might be doing this? But we do this right? Like? What is that feeling that they're trying to convey? If you do it in one to two words, max, and remember that when building out your copy, your website, your social media, all of that, because then you'll see that these other people are doing, they have a theme that they're going for, and they're going to want to see that in you.
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That makes complete sense. Thank you for that extra emphasis on the importance of that. I want to now move into your pricing. You know, we kind of started talking about this a little bit earlier how you started to package retainer prices differently based on level of access, among other factors. your pricing strategy piece that really stood out to me was this concept of a first second third tier pricing strategy. So can you quickly just explain for our listeners, what does that mean? Give us the example. And then I have some additional follow ups for you.
So I actually found that researching clients websites that often they had tears and then I started really seeing it almost everywhere, like oh, Netflix has tiers, oh, Dropbox has tiers. It's not just services, its products too. And then the more I looked, I said we are hope other than like retail shopping or food shopping or something like that, or products really. You're coming into this world we're in a world of options. People want options.
So then I was like, okay, well, if I'm going to do this, and I want to charge someone higher, and someone lower, ooh, how do I do that? And that's when I started thinking about level of access and availability and turnaround time, like, what are they looking for? Are they looking for a corporate level? EA? Who's going to give them everything that they want, including like, after hours support? Or are they looking for like a front desk assistant or something, right? Someone who just logs in every day, it's very low key, when I get to the stuff, I get to the stuff. And maybe there's like a 72 hour turnaround time or something like that, right?
And then that's how I started packaging it. So then, when I was on client calls, I would ask the question, now, if this was a perfect working relationship, what would that entail? And they would say, okay, here's the here's this, this, this is this. And it's kind of like HGTV. When they go in, they say, What's your dream house? And they're like, oh, I want laundry on the same floor, and I want to have a deck and I want this and they're like, okay, that's gonna cost you $2 million, right? And they're like, oh, nevermind. But sometimes they can afford that. So then I was like, okay, if that's everything that they want, that's going to be the top tier. And then I said, okay, well, the second tier then is going to be almost everything because I don't want them on the lowest here, right? We could, well, you obviously want the higher paying ones.
So the second one is going to be like realistic, they can probably afford this, and this is going to be good. And maybe that means they don't have their email account on my phone. Right? Maybe that means less calls. Like there are ways to do this for other other Freelancer businesses. And then the last one was really budget friendly. Right? Like, you can work with me, but you're sacrificing some things that you want in order to get this price. And then that is how I basically did it. And then I just kept increasing the pricing and more people came to me because I realized that first like this reflection framework was working.
And people were finding me and I just started increasing pricing to see how far I could go with it. And I like now it's $3,000 with the lowest and $5,000 for the highest, which if you look at an EA, VA, last time I checked online, the standard annual salary is I think, like 55,000, for any a VA. And that's just like, to me, that's low. But as that full time, I don't know, there's not enough details on that. But keep in mind that I'm working 25 hours a week or less. And 150,000.
Yeah.
Then I started getting a team and doing more, but funnily my team just does my marketing. So they don't, they're not actually working with my clients, I'm for the most part, I would say 90% of the time, I'm working with my clients still directly.
Okay, this is really fascinating, not something I expected. Actually, I was going to ask you about your team. And you know, that transition, I'll get to that later. But just reminds me here, you put the opinion that if I don't remember to circle back on this, because that is very different. Most people, when they start to hire teams, it's really to help support on the delivery side of the service or program or whatever product, you know, they're actually creating for the customer. That's really interesting that you are pretty much still 100% in the fulfillment department, but your team is helping you I guess, widen your scope of who and when I guess you attract clients.
So anyways, we'll we'll circle back to that. But this pricing strategy. So to my understanding, then the third pricing tier, the one that was completely budget friendly, but really didn't include all the aspects that they wanted. That was like, meant to be an anchor, right? Like kind of making someone I'm assuming kind of shift to the middle, you purposely made it so that it would be an unattractive option other than the price? Am I understanding that correctly?
Correct. I want to bump them up to a higher, like, let's be real, I'm running a business, I want to bump them up. Now, what I like about these tears is that it does leave it open for negotiation. So if the person's like, Oh, I really just don't like that. $3,000. I don't know about that, then maybe Okay, let's add in a few things, a subtract a few things. Can you go up to 30 504,000? Instead of like 5000 or 4000? Right, like, let's see what we can do here.
And I'm not scared of negotiating. I have a limit on how low I will go. Right? Like there is one person I loved before social proof. They were a big company. And for that I went lower than $3,000 a month because to have their logo on my webpage meant way more to me than how much I was gonna get from them. I'm not 100. So of course, there's exceptions. But most of the time, I want to steer them to a higher package.
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. I don't know if you know the data around this, but even an estimation is fine. Do you know when you present these three tier options to your prospects who eventually become paying clients? What percentage choose the highest tier versus the middle package versus the low? Do you have the percentage breakdown for those three?
I don't have the exact breakdown by could give you an idea. And it depends. Are they a referral that's coming from someone else? Or are they cold? Are they coming in through? Like, see my marketing? Or my? Or SEO or whatever? Did they find me? Do you have a specific? Which one?
Let's do both, actually, because I think narrows would be, it'd be helpful to compare how that lead source actually impacts the end conversion.
Referrals almost always go to the middle tier or the highest tier. Okay, because they have heard from me from someone else, they probably know, I'm on the pricier side for my services, right? I would say the people that come in cold website inquiry or see my marketing on LinkedIn, they are probably either the lowest or the middle. Okay, I'm trying to think the last time I hired someone on my highest package that was cold, was probably a year, a year and a half ago.
That's really good to know. So it's happened before, it's just not as frequent. And if we go to this segment, so like the warm referrals, who find you that by either the second or the first year, the middle or the high package? Estimation? Do you know what is that like a 5050? Split? Is it a 6040 7030? Like, what what do you estimate that split to come?
I would probably, I would probably closer to 6040, like 60%, take the middle 40% Take the highest but almost 100% can be upsold to a higher rate, at some point for some reason or another because knife. If you're an executive assistant, people start relying on you. And I am very good. And I've been doing this for a while. So that's why but I'm very good at saying I'm sorry, that's not on the current contract that you signed, or the current package that you signed up for. Let's discuss if you want and enough of that makes the person say, oh, gosh, okay, I need this.
Right. And you had mentioned earlier that when you were starting your prices, I think when I was reading your initial pitch, they were really between that 400 to $1,000 range. Now you said there between the three to 5000. Incredible, congratulations on that huge price jump over time, obviously, what was that incremental increase? Like? How often did you kind of test bumping that price up and up and up until you land in your current sweet spot? And also, when did you realize I'm in my current sweet spot and kind of stopped continually hiking the prices?
So I started doing these experiments to see how much I could get when I was comfortable when I was actually had a good client base. But there was always that one client that I'm I would be happy dropping. There, they're not paying enough, whatever it is, you know, it's like that one client that yelling? And then then I say, okay, well, this is gonna cost you X amount, like whatever I was going up to at that point. And it would always surprise me when people were like, okay, I should have done it higher. I'm sure you hear this from guests, like, ouch, I should have done higher, right? And so that's it was really like, Am I good where I am in my sauce.
So if I lose this client to this high pricing, it's not going to be totally detrimental. But the opposite ended up happening. And the people using this reflection framework started becoming more and more high quality started having higher and higher income. Right. So that was kind of what I started doing. When I started looking and researching more in depth like okay, what currently our EA is making in my city. Because it's been a while I was like, I want to see what they're making, right? And I realized that at the $5,000 month, we're looking at like 60k a year. And I said to myself, Okay, that is sometimes the full time salary of an EA somewhere.
Yeah.
I think this is a good place to stop for a while and see what happens. And I think my gut was definitely right on that. Because if you're going to be pulling for, like paying for it, virtual so remote, even though my skills are really good, and still, quote unquote, kind of part time. Even if I have your email on my phone, there's still like a limit on what you can ask me because I am a contractor, not an employee. Right. At that point, I thought the $5,000 a month is good. Now there are exceptions. Obviously, I've had people who have all remote teams who only want to work with contractors, and this worked for them, they would gladly pay me more than that. Right.
Right.
But it was a good place for me to stop when I saw like, oh, no, someone in like Kansas City is making this much annually. I think for me it was it was a gut feeling because it's gonna get harder and harder to argue that for a part time ei you you should be paying that much. You can say that's mindset issues too. Right? Like, right could be my own mindset issues. But for now, I've stopped there. And I feel like it's good.
I think logically in your particular market and who you're serving, it actually makes a lot of sense because to your very, very early point you were saying how oftentimes these edgy startups right they are desperately needing executive assistant support, but maybe are not in a financial place to hire someone in house full time. And so the moment you start to drastically exceed the cost of what a full time EA in house would cost then To your point, it becomes this is that really worth, you know, choosing this alternative option versus the regular option. And so I actually completely understand the logical kind of analysis that you did there and why you landed where you did. I would like to ask on behalf of our listeners, I'm sure some are wondering, as you're making these jumps up from, let's say, your lowest package of $400. Up to now 3000.
By what percentage? Were you increasing? Each time you decided to kind of push the envelope? Was it a, you know, a 100%? Increase? Was it totally random and gut feeling like?
I wish I had like a percentage answer, it was totally like, let's see if this price will work. So I do remember one time, yes, it was 400 was like, the lowest and I just said, Well, my lowest is 1200. And I just like, pulled that out. And then I said, and then if you want to go up the highest is 2000. Right? So like sitting there sweating. And person's like, oh, well, what's in between? I was like, Okay, great. Let's talk about those others. So that was I think, I remember that being the first time doing a drastic, almost $1,000 job, right. And then after that, it was really I got more and more confident after that, once that was I do remember that first one, but there was no rhyme or reason.
However, I will say, Oh, this is kind of important. I started doing intake forms on my site, because I noticed a lot of my clients had these are not clients or ideal clients and industry had these extensive intake forms. And what I started doing was asking very targeted questions, because I can't ask how much are you actually making? Right? So of course, I've asked for their website. But then I would ask like, how many employees or subcontractors do you have on your team? What does your current support system look like like? Do they have other assistants in the office sometimes that happen to have they worked with assistants in the past? And they've been on and on? Because then they have a budget? Right? So like these questions I would ask were very targeted to make sure that like I could jump higher if I wanted to.
So there was, yes, it was random. But that intake form kind of gave me an idea of like what I could push for.
Yes. And honestly, I feel like an intake form a client inquiry form, whatever you want to call it is essential to having a successful sales call discovery call, like you want to go in having some contacts, right or leverage to be able to guide that conversation. So really smart, I think that you started implementing that. Another piece of your pricing, you kind of already talked about this a little bit. Like if someone wants you available from 7am to 9pm, they're gonna pay a higher price than someone who's like, normal nine to five hours, let's say, when you like, let's say a client comes to you that does kind of want that more white glove service that 7am to 9pm.
They give you the whole dream list, and you're thinking in your head as they're talking, okay, this is going to fall in my $5,000 package, when you quote them that $5,000 package. At that point, do you still give them the different tiers? Or because they're really set and clearer on what they want? Do you only give them that high tier option, because that's the only one that fits all of their requests, and then just kind of leave it at that I was curious how you approach that.
I say, in a general way like that, we're looking at probably $5,000, based on how much you travel, how much you need me after hours, I'm happy to provide other options for you. But that is if you want to have that kind of availability, this is what we're looking at. And then I do always send a proposal and in the proposal is when I tweak the offering. And I say like okay, based on like, Does this person seem like a red flag client? Not that bad. But do they see like a client that I that might actually take full advantage of this?
Right.
Okay, well, then let me take out a few of these things like email on my phone for the 4000 because I don't want them blowing on my phone all the time and having to see that right. So I do provide other options. It's rare, when a client is on that highest that they will go lower, because they generally do need someone who can change their flight at 7pm at night and stuff like that. But I will say I've been I've been very blessed as I've continued doing this at being able to also practice figuring out the ones it's been very rare that I've had to do stuff last minute, even though they sign up for that, which is nice.
Wonderful. And I think a lot of that has to do with how intentional and structured you are from the very beginning. I think that really sets the tone of the relationship. So you're not attracting people who tend to want to take advantage of you know, being the PITA client, if you will. So, one last piece on on the pricing aspect before I wrap up the case study going back to the team, you know, adding a team and kind of the current stage of your business as a solopreneur.
You set guidelines for yourself that you had a capacity of seven clients maximum at one given time and the way that you had broken it down with a maximum of three at the highest tier of 5000 a month, maybe two to four in that $4,000 range and then to in that lowest range of $3,000 a month. I want to to know, how did you determine your client capacity? Was this something that you kind of had to come to? Because at one point, you overloaded yourself and realize, okay, whoa, seven, is my max? Or was this something that you more logically thought out? And how did you manage? So like if a certain tier was full, and then a client, you know, prospective client came to you, and you realize through the course of the conversation that the tier that's full is the one that they actually need? How did you manage that situation?
Yeah, so I decided that or I learned this, I used to take anyone at the highest package, and then COVID happened, a pandemic, and everyone was home. And everyone was emailing me. And everyone was trying to salvage their business and pivot their business and needed all this extra support. I mean, I was lucky in the sense that I only lost one client during COVID. But I also was unlucky in the sense that all of a sudden, I was had so much work, because I had taken on as many as I wanted, because my highest level were people who traveled frequently.
And so I could have these breaks, there were times where I'd only work two to three hours a week, if everyone happened to pick the same week to travel. It was amazing. But then during COVID, everyone was home all the time. So I was like four months of just misery. And I realized, okay, if anything like this happens again, this is not sustainable for me, for my family, for my business, I will burn out. And so I put a cap and I said, Okay, $5,000 a month, I mean, for three clients, we're looking at quite a lot of money there. Now, it's rare that I have three, I don't think I've had three at the highest for two years. But I've also had a baby in the past two years.
So I've been very, very selective. But that was kind of when that happened. I started putting a kibosh, and again, having a baby helped. And I started, like really figuring out but the lowest baggage now is actually even, I don't even check their email every day. It's only like two or three days a week, but then I need to make sure I'm completely on those two or three days, and I'm very invested in their work. So that's also something I have to take into consideration. So it's really there's there's pros and cons. And I think like COVID taught me, I can't take on everyone. But at the same time now I'm getting more logical about it as the business grows and as I continue.
Hmm yes. Okay. Thank you for sharing, you know, because it I mean, we all learned the hard way in our businesses, usually, usually. And so that is helpful to hear kind of how you deal with that. Let's talk about team to wrap up this case study because I am really fascinated by what you said earlier, in regards to you know, once you hit $150,000 a year, you start to bring on outside support so that you are no longer purely a solopreneur. But you said most of your team support is in the realm of actually marketing your business rather than helping you fulfill on client services. And so I guess my question to you is, if you know, your internal capacity for clients sits at around seven, if you hire a team to market your services, that's helpful when you're maybe not at capacity. But when you are at capacity, you're still in some ways limited by your ability to expand your business much further right? Because you haven't hired on the fulfillment side. Can you kind of walk us through what was your reason for approaching hiring that?
Yes, and there's a little extra aspect to this that I do have a referral finder's fee network, like I have a network of other people that if someone comes to me, I will put out a blast. And people will say like, Hey, I can sign up, they send proposals and I and I take a fee from them. So there is a little bit of that. Okay, so, but I have started in the past year, when clients come to me, I will see if it's something that doesn't require my 100% I currently have a client on board where I would say I have someone else do 90% of the work and he doesn't know and I'm the contract does say that I hire support occasionally. But I am still going looking through all the work making sure it's acceptable and sending it on.
Now this doesn't work with strictly EA clients because they need you to book flights to the last minute they need you change meetings at the last minute so there's all this stuff that that kind of client I am at capacity for Yeah, but now I started to look and market myself as like okay. Are the people who need personal assistance where stuff like I can outsource a lot of that or it doesn't have to be something that's done right that second Right?
Right.
And on that further No, I have to keep marketing myself because in this isn't this economy. I mean last year when the SVB Fallout happened with the bank I lost three clients at once and if I wasn't having this wait list of people who are interested in working with me, I would have been like oh shoot there I go there goes my six figure salary by myself. I'm gonna have to fire me like what do you know like you have to continually market myself so yes, if I'm at capacity, there's three routes I got a I can turn them down and say or say like would you like to go on my waitlist because I have a waitlist and you know ever know, something could happen. And this happens, it could open up, be, I see if there's they have tasks that at least 50% can be done by someone else. And if that is the case, then I can take them on, I have enough room.
And I will make sure that I'm constantly checking that person's work that current one, the clients I just took on this year. Like I said, 90% of his work is done by someone else, right? And then see, I have like a network. So one of the great things I can do is, if I've liked this person, a can't afford me, or B, for whatever reason is just not a good match, or it just doesn't fit right now. I say, You know what, I have a really strong network, if you'd like I can reach out to those that I know and help you find someone and like that is like balm for them. Like that's like cool water. They're like, Oh, yes, I don't have to do any more work thank you.
So then that's another way I've diversified my income by having a list of people who are interested in the clients I receive, because they know they're usually higher income. And they put out a blast. People send proposals, I sift through them see, which would be the best and then present them so and then I collect a fee at the end of that.
Really smart. And if you're able to share what what is that finder's fee that you charge? And is it just on the first month's contract? Or?
Yes.
Okay.
So if it's a retainer, someone long term, I asked for 50% of their first contract. So depending I am they have? Hopefully, they're honest with how much they charge? I don't know. Hopefully, they're not like with the client and glutes. Right? But so I will actually do the fee on the assistant not on the client. So there are some people like to do the the fee on the client side, but I don't I do it on the assistance side. And it's 50%. If it's a project based, like someone who like needs help with a lunch or there's, I once had a client who was coming to the US for a month and wanted the person to be US based. If it's stuff like that I do a little bit less I do 25%.
That makes total sense. Because obviously with the retainer, you're sending them recurring revenue, essentially, right? Yes, theoretically, at least any desire in the future to expand your team on the fulfillment side and actually have other EA's that are part of your team, or do you like being the sole service provider on your team?
I actually didn't do that. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like all the management. I didn't like how my reputation was at stake. A lot of times to find an executive assistant whose corporate level is difficult, like a good freelancer, corporate level, ei because a lot of the good corporate level EAS are in corporate. So I and it's there's some great ones out there, but they have their own businesses like me, and they're thriving. So I did do it for social media for where a lot of people coming in to me for social media, I outsourced that.
It's a lot of work to manage an agency and I loved working with clients, I still love working with clients, I did not want to expand, and I just ended up burning it to the ground, honestly. So I don't have plans to do that. In the future. I really like everything going through me and being client facing because I have had experience in the management aspect. I don't like management don't like handling clients being upset or client or clients being happy. I don't care. I just want to do my job. And yeah, that'd be me. So no, not not big plans to do that.
I think the self awareness there is really admirable. And so many people would be happier if they took the time to be self aware about what works for them and what doesn't. And I think that your case study is a beautiful example of how scaling doesn't always have to mean hiring bigger teams or, you know, growing revenue year over year at a non stop, you know, upward and climb. So, anyways, thank you so much for your transparency today. Carrie, thank you for doing all of the back and forth with our team to get us the data that we needed for this case study. It was so, so helpful. You're amazing.
Where can our listeners continue to connect with you, especially those who may be you know, needing EA support?
Sure. So I have a podcast as well. It's called Her Balanced Hustle interview women entrepreneurs who are looking to scale and keep their personal life that's very big for me. So if you want to find me on that podcast, we can put it in the show notes I'm sure. I also for my EA services you can go to dependable va.com I have actually usually after podcasts a lot of people asked me to help them build a business similar to how I did so if you are a freelancer and looking to do that you can go to corporate2contractor.com.
That's number two. That's my coaching business. I want to say like I'm all about scaling, but there's way to diversify your income and that is what I have done. I coach I have a freelance business I have the finder's fee. I have a bunch of different ways that like I'm able to fill my time that I love doing and it's not all about like oh I need to build an agency I need to you know, hire all these people and do it this way. There's ways you can grow your income by just sticking with diversifying it instead.
So true so true. And your your episode is actually going to air shortly after a Another episode with a guest, Taylor eller, who talked about exactly that using your different skill sets and interest to diversify through a concept called multi potentialism. So I love that synergy between YouTube. Thank you again Kiri. All of the links mentioned will be in the show notes. So if you're listening, make sure you go Kiri them out. Go send a thank you DM to Kiri and we will catch you all in the next episode. Thanks for listening.
Thank you.
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