Welcome to the unconventional leadership podcast a weekly podcast where we dive into the latest leadership news tips and strategies. I'm your host Mike supple Jr, co founder and CEO of the talent magnet Institute, best selling author, speaker, and podcaster. Through the insightful interviews with experts from various industries and backgrounds, we unpack the skills, traits and mindsets crucial for effective leadership in today's world. From embracing failure to leading with empathy, we uncover the unconventional strategies shaping the future of leadership. Whether you're a seasoned leader seeking to stay ahead of the curve or aspiring to develop the skills and insights to succeed. The unconventional leadership podcast has something for you. Join us each week as we challenge the status quo, and explore what it means to be an unconventional leader.
Well welcome, everyone to this week's episode of the unconventional leadership podcast, I have the distinct pleasure to be with Heather, our younger author, international speaker, CEO and founder of employee fanatics, Heather's been a previous guest Episode 164, the art of caring leadership, which was also the title of her previous book, she's got a new book called The Art of active listening. And I cannot wait to for this discussion. Heather, thank you so much for joining us in the studio.
Thanks for having me, Mike. It's always a pleasure to be with you.
Always, always. And it's an honor to follow. So Heather, is one of the individuals who I follow to get fed in this area and topic of active listening. So organizational culture, driving employee happiness, creating overall organizational success, how do we create an environment where people can thrive? That's more intentionally inclusive. And Heather, I would love to hear from you. Since we last spoke, the the science and the research that you're finding on active listening, and why you're getting ready to release this next book.
Yeah, well, it's interesting I, I had been doing kind of the research, quantitative and qualitative on listening for years before I landed in a book. And I don't know if you remember, my very first book was called The Seven intuitive laws of employee loyalty. And the first chapter of that book was called give them good supportive managers. And then my next book was called The Art of caring leadership, because my goal was to define what good supportive managers look like. And then in the art of caring leadership, there are nine behaviors, and one of them is to create a culture of listening. And so I drilled down from there and created one book called The Art of active listening. And that is because all of my work for the last probably 15 years has been on listening to customers and employees alike. And through surveys through roundtables, through listening sessions, through culture teams, through ERG facilitation. And through all of that, like living in and hearing the truth of others, I realized that we were really deficient and listening well, like we listen in ways that we, that we used to think active listening was so that active listening thing that the previous thing was, let me lean in to this person. Let me paraphrase what they say, Let me shake my head a lot. And like there's these, those are all part of the seeking to understand those are all part of active listening. But most people think that's all you do is that the listening is that thing. But what I use is I talk about a holistic approach to listening because I found that through all of those years of both quantitative and qualitative research, predominantly qualitative, but also all the surveys and engagement things we did,
I would see that we would think we would listen, we may even follow what I was saying, Good seeking and leaning in is, and then we would either not take any action, we would take action, but never tell anything, tell anybody about it, we would take action that was too quickly done and never properly processed. And so that's when I realized that we needed to have the cycle in place that provided a framework for people to gauge where their strongest or weakest where they can improve as a relates to listening. So that's why that's where I'm at here. Now. It's like it's like a call to this work. I've been doing this work for years, I finally said I need to codify and really do go deeper into just the concept of listening.
What seems like that word, the active phrase is what you're really putting highlight on of like, what does activation mean? When listening is leaning in and being connected in hearing and playing back and responding the activation part is really what you are trying to build into the skills and talents of those people that you work with.
Yeah, so the activation part I love the way you say that is is the thing that happens after you seek or after you lean in or after you do the thing you that you use that use the thing that was fully encapsulating and listening. Now, it's not enough that we have to do the other things and so the activation is, after you've done that leaning in and parroted or paraphrased, and all the things you think of listening, what do you do with what you just switched? You just received? Because you received like a super big gift? What do you do with that gift? Do you put it out on the tree and it stays there? You never unwrap it? What do you or do you unwrap it and you go deeper? And you gotta go, what is this thing that I'm getting here? Okay, so that's where the other steps in the cycle of active listening come in.
So how do I as a, let's say, I'm a manager, and I've been leading a team for three years, and I go, you know, I feel like I hear my employees well, but I've never, I don't really know if I hear them well, and if they feel like I'm a good listener, and I'm a good leader that understands where they are and how to help them progress, like, where do I start as a manager in that topic,
I think the biggest thing is to get you out of the way. So like, often, what happens is you get what I'm saying, We and I'm including me in it, by the way, just because I wrote the book doesn't mean I'm perfect at it. So what often happens with us is, we get so centered on ourselves full of ourselves, like everything kind of revolves around our stressed at work, or whatever, whatever that is. And it's hard for us to see over that, through that, and into the heart and in need of another person. And so it starts off first with a mindset of saying, when I as a manager, and have the team members in there in front of me, when I'm there with them, Am I there to serve them in the moment? Am I there to serve them and their needs? Or am I first and foremost focused on what I'm getting out of it? am I serving me first? It's like asking ourselves those questions, helps us to then be able to kind of settle into, okay, like I, I think that I am primarily thinking of me and this thing that I need to get done, I have this project that I need to bring to a close, I need them to go do that thing. And I don't have a lot of time to really be thinking about how they're feeling in the moment with the thing that they want to get done. I don't have time to just rest in it. And so they know it, though they know when they've been rushed through. They know when you're just thinking of you. So just know that it starts off with a great mindset. And then I would say it doesn't take as much time as the framework makes you think sometimes because I have this framework. But it doesn't mean you have to take years and years to this doesn't need to be months, it means you can work through it, you just don't want to skip through some of the steps of it in order to get to the other side of truth, because that's really what that's really what active listening gets us. It gets us to the truth instead of our assumptions.
So how they're one of the things that our research at talent magnet has been showing us is that so many times employees on our teams don't have all of the skills to do the things we're asking them to do. Right? And so few times people actually verbalize that because they like if I say Heather's invited me Mike's invited me to be a part of the strategy conversation. I've never been a part of a strategic development process, or I've never been a part of dealing with this level of conflict. And most employees aren't in an environment where they feel safe enough to raise their hand and say that, do you feel like this process builds a greater sense of trust, to help people filter through true concerns that would then open up an organization to go Oh, my gosh, why didn't you guys tell me this?
Huh? It's funny you say that I was. I would say a few weeks ago, I was on a webinar for this book with Stephen. Mr. Covey. You mentioned it before the call. And of course, he wrote the book, The Speed of Trust, which is like world renowned and his dad, Stephen R. Covey was the one who created the other book, and all of a sudden it went right out of my head. But you know which book I'm talking about. It's the book on the on the seven,
seven habits of highly
effective people. Thank you so much. It went in and out of my head. You know how that works sometimes. So maybe not. I'm, I'm getting older.
And he wrote the foreword of the art of active listening. Right?
Yeah. His son, Stephen, Mr. Covey wrote the foreword for the, for this the art of active listening book. And so but as I'm in in it, and I'm talking to him, we're talking about like, which comes first, like trust or listening. And so it's like, well, you build trust via listening, but you have to have trust to get to the truth of your listening. So you're like, what I mean by that is that in order for you're listening, the act of listening or trying to do to be fruitful, you have to have a foundation of trust, as you just alluded to. And if you don't have the trust, then people won't tell you the truth. So is it really listening? Because the emember the end result of listening is to make sure that people heard, valued and understood, but you can't hear them, value them and understand them if you don't really know what their truth is. So that's kind of thing. It's like, I gotta listen to them, so that they know that I care for them. And that builds trust. So it goes hand in hand, which is why the webinar and our alignment made so much sense because it's just as hard to take apart. You gotta have
absolutely, and if you don't know where to start, start with one of them because one of them will, will lead and connect with the other.
Yes, and that's why like in the book, I tried to give tactical, kind of tactical, practical things. that people can do. And obviously, there's the words to be said or the the gestures to be done or to be noticing, like recognizing the handset is the first step in the cycle. And it's like, well, how do you do that? And what are the things I recommend you do to do that. And so I tried to be give the the practical steps around this, this framework that is real like it's been worked through. So this is not like something I just put together. It's literally something over the years of doing over 30,000, customer employee surveys, facilitating hundreds of focus groups with employees and customers, I saw how we worked through these things, how organizations did or didn't, how we fail it. And so it was, it's tested, you know, fire tested through time. And that's why I like it, because it's actually something that's usable. And it can be worked at an organizational level, at an individual level, or at a team level as well.
So one of the questions or topics that comes up in are some of the survey alignment we do with individuals in our platform. They say I want to learn how to do two things, increase team member effectiveness, I don't necessarily know how to do that. And I want to build a more inclusive and intentional culture. Again, does how does active listening helped me increase my team member effectiveness and build a more intentional and inclusive culture,
I would say, in order to increase a team members effectiveness, you have to know what it is that like moves them. Right? Because you can't what happens if we can push someone and push them on to kick someone, and at some point, they're, they're either going to keep doing it, they're going to kind of lay down like a puppy and be like super passive, or they're going to get out of the building. So it's going to be the opposite of magnetic it's going to be repelling, right. So thinking about what moves them we don't, we don't know what moves them unless we lean into listen to them understand what their situation is, understanding what their unique perspective is, is going to be the thing that helps us increase their their performance. On the inclusion, the intentional inclusion side, I actually see I argue that listening, active listening is inclusion, because there's that five part framework, and once I walk you through it super fast, you'll see why I think it is inclusion, because inclusion is in my mind, I get to go to the party. And I also get to dance with people on the dance floor versus like, I never got invited, I got invited, I sat there, no one asked me to dance, I then got to dance. And so when we think about the way I talk about listening, it puts the words the voice into an, like you said, an activating action filled mode. But there has there some pause components, there's some reflection components in it.
So share with us a little bit about the framework, the five parts of the framework.
Yes. So the first step is to recognize the unsaid. And that really is looking at nonverbal cues in our environment, recognizing signs of things that aren't spoken, that could be super harmful to our leadership, to our team to our organization. So when we do that, when we pause enough to recognize it's like, here's one example, if you're somebody who you hear people laughing in the room, and then you walk in the room and everything stops just silence. Well, what were they laughing about? Like, why can't they still laugh around me? Like, why can't I be involved in it? So we're starting to like, evaluate for ourselves? Are people comfortable enough to openly tell us their whole truth? Their whole truth, which can be a truth? We don't want to hear keeping that in mind. So the whole truth is all is not all, like crickets, and are not birds chirping. And it's not that. And so that's a big part of it. So how quickly do we pause to really lean in to understand what's happening before anyone said it word. And then that second step is, is the seeking to understand which is funny enough, one of the laws in the Stephens father's book on Highly Effective People, and it's seeking to understand is the idea of leaning in, and I call it a fertile way, leaning in to serve the other and not just serve yourself first. And that's going to show the things we think of when we think of listening. It's the shaking of the head, it's the leaning of the head, it's the moving, you know, leaning forward. It's the paraphrasing what we hear. But what I always tell people is like, we don't want to, we don't want to pare it back what we've heard, what we want to do instead is we want to, we want to paraphrase it, but with the context of what we see not just what we hear. So if they are telling us something, and they're frustrated with telling us something, and we're and they're anxious. When we summarize what we think we heard them say we also put in the emotional context, so that they go, Oh, they not only heard me, they get me they get that I'm feeling this way they understand that right? If people are going back to magnetics, as I'm thinking about we lose customers, we lose employees. Do we want to be a magnetic force that brings people to us or one that repels them? And this idea of magnetic ism in leadership is critical. As we think about this thing I'm talking about now, which is are we going into those listening to them? Are we going into, you know, to serve their needs? Are we are we going To get get get people want to be with people who understand them, who see them, who really, really see them for all the things and value all the components of the things. So I think that part of it kind of even goes back to the inclusion idea. The next step is to decode. Which really is this idea of reflection, reflection, taking time to pause, to reflect to break down? What it is, we've heard, what feedback we've received from the pre people or the person on the other end? And what are we going to do about it? If anything? And who should I include in that process of deciding that? Okay, I'm going to ask, So practically, I'm gonna ask permission to you can I come back to in the next two days, I just need to go to my team to break down what it is you've heard, go do some research, maybe talk to this, this and this, and this, and this, whoever that is. And then I'll come back to you with like, what I think we might be able to do for you. Is that work for you? Is that okay? All right, great. So you go and you do that's decoding is now going back to the team going back to process what you heard going to do the research, that's an important step in the listening process that most of us don't do. Because most of us have an affinity to action, we come from a place of goodness, actually, which is good, because we want to act to solve the pain of another person. So immediately, we want to hear we want to act, not a bad thing at the core, it's just that we don't then serve as magnetic as we could be, if we took the time to pause, reflect, do research come back, because then what we say to them is Dang, they take us kind of seriously, like they're not just sweeping this under the carpet, or just deciding like that. They're taking that time to do the work on our behalf. I'm kind of important, where before, maybe they didn't feel as important, they thought we they were just like a number, they're now more important, then we go to action. Because now that we've done the reflection, and we've done the research, we can go act and the action, we don't have to act on everything. But we need to do some kind of action. And sometimes the action is just leaning in to listen to the person just leaning into seeking a fertile way. That could be all the action they want. And you have to ask permission for them to act on their behalf. Because you could ruin the relationship more if you take the wrong actions. And then the final step is closing the loop. And closing the loop really is that idea of like after we've done all these things, sometimes what will happen? If you ever have done a survey, you see things start to change out in the culture and the environment are like, Oh, that's interesting. They put that sign up that we've done over here they get they included this thing on our benefits plan. But what you don't quite know is if that came from the use of your voice, like did it come from the survey? Did it come from your one on one interaction? Did it come from the team feedback? Where did it come from? Exactly? You're guessing it was from you and your team? But you don't know it? For sure. Close the Loop dots the eye and says, I did hear you specifically I heard you. And the things that we're changing are because of you. And thank you so much. And here's what we're doing. Here's what we plan to do. Here's what we cannot do. But we'll try to do this instead. What do you think about that? So that's the whole that's the cycle. And we just do that cycle over and over again? With everybody around us. Yeah. So you're probably like, dammit, I'm exhausted now.
No, can you? So are you you mentioned the individual. So giving that feedback of this is because you gave this feedback. We are taking these actions. Thank you for that feedback. Can that be given in a team environment that I we heard all of you? Yes, exactly. Thank you for that feedback, the three points that we believe are most important.
That's a great point, Mike. And here's what I would say when you're going to like if you're listening in a team way or the organizational way, or even just one on one, I think it's superduper important to set expectations right up front, that you may not be able to act on any or all of the things but you do have an intent to do the work. So you do intend to decode it by researching it taking the time and seeing what you can come up with it could be a compromise, it could be absolutely nothing at all, because it doesn't serve the greater need, or it only serves a need of one. And it's not like an urgent need. Sometimes you have to serve the need of one if it's urgent, like if there's harassment going on something like that, right. But as we think about like customers, sometimes you have to hear it multiple times. And you're like, Okay, I am taking away organizationally we're listening well, we see that there are multiple customers having a problem with this part of our process. So I think it's time for us to think about this. Maybe we can corral a focus group of customers, including some who gave the feedback if we know who they are, and see what would be some of the tactical practical ways we can actually help to meet that need. And then after we've done that need, go back to the people and say, Oh, that was you were actually spot on. We are really falling down or we've looked further and we don't see that particular issue. We did find this other nuance, as you were I could see that could impact where your your experience is right now. So can we go deeper on that issue and that you can get more right back and forth. The act of listening is a tennis match where one person is kind of delivering back and forth, and you're always interacting. It's a two way street. It's not just one way.
So Heather, one of the things Things that I am inspired by and I see come out of your work, you mentioned on your LinkedIn profile that your why is to give voice to the voiceless at work, that those employees who feel powerless or hopeless or helpless, the work that you're doing is giving the skills to, I would assume in most cases, the managers, directors, the leaders, to help draw out that communications with others. And by doing that you're giving a voice to the employees and the organization.
I mean, it actually comes from all directions. So what I decided with this book, if you notice is the art of active listening how people at work feel heard, valued, understood, there's no leader in the title, and there's no employee in the title. And I did it purposely, because I wanted listening to be for everyone to see their role them having a role in that, so that everybody in any seat they're sitting in, would feel the need to learn the cycle and to live through the cycle every day. So this is not just for those who manage people, although it can be this listening talk is for all employees, interacting with anybody in and outside of work. So the customer experience sales could be anybody. So I think the other thing is, i While traditionally I have done a lot of speaking, most of my stuff has been like, let me speak to leadership audiences. When I started out, it was the customer experience side, and I was listening to I was kind of like the voice for the higher end customer, their multimillion dollar clients that were in an organization I was working for, we had to do the different surveys for all these clients as well, we would bring them in, get their feedback and these kind of consortium types of things, forms and then and then I'd have to bring it back to the executive leadership team who had the power to do something about the feedback I was giving them. And then I'd have to go back to those clients tell him what so I worked overseas 15 years ago, the cycle. And I didn't really realize this is exactly what I was doing. But as I did it over and over and over and over, then moved into the employee space and did it over and over and over and over and been leading people for a long time using that, I realized their brilliance that again, kind of accidentally stumble upon, but that we were doing through kind of just over and over practice and seeing, you know, seeing what worked. So I think that in the end that whole idea of just being leaders leaders, I do talk a lot to leaders leaders do have an impact. It's above organization listening, it's listening between leader, a manager and team member is listening between team member and team member is listening to team member and customer. It's how much are we interacting with people? And as we leave those interactions, how much do we since the other person saw us? How much do we since the other person understood the thing we brought to them. And if we've considered ourselves and our own little kind of scorecard, I think I did a pretty good job of this because the person maybe on the other end thanked me or the person on their end came back afterward and said, I felt like that was really cool. We gauge how well we listened by others response to us, really, because if we gauge it just on our own, and we can have our own internal scorecards a self assessment. But in the end, it's that external view that really like does the customer. Really, did they stay with us. Do they spend more with us? Do they care? Those are the things we're looking for?
Yeah, so an indicator of that, you know, if I'm listening to this episode, and I'm like, I, I try, I don't know if I'm doing a good job as I would like to be doing. But one of the indicators is as a individual, do I get feedback? That Hey, I really appreciate it when you listen to me on this particular topic, or that you took my thoughts into consideration? Or, you know what, Heather, nobody's ever asked me the question that you just asked me. And I really appreciate that. When you mentioned this last week in the meeting, I really felt heard. So those are indicators that if I'm listening to this episode, I can go I'm doing a fairly good job of that.
And also like, Are your people referring other people that work in your team? Or do you get absolutely no referrals of people working in your team? I mean, some of these things are just like I get these are the recognizing the unsaid things. These are little cues that you're like, like this job is here. Like, I should be getting some kind of people referring some friend or something and I never am. It's let me just go a little deeper. You could even ask about it.
Yeah. Now what if I know that? Yeah, I get feedback that I'm not a good listener, or that people don't feel valued when they tell me things. They don't think I I pay attention to what they're saying, because I don't do anything with it. So how do I then use these five steps to get started? And where do I start?
Yeah, I mean, I would say first, don't smack yourself for what you didn't do earlier today or yesterday. Be looking at what you can do starting tomorrow. So kind of uplift yourself knowing that tomorrow is a brand new day and you can choose to be better tomorrow. Obviously I have the book I'll have LinkedIn learning courses coming out this week or this this sorry, q3 this year of 2023. And like the learning courses coming out on this, they've got already an online course now so there's plenty of resources as for like how do you do this type thing that I just just making it available to people? We have a we have a quiz we have a waitlist for teams, it'll be at the back of the book for active listening workshops. You can bring And for teams. So I think there's a lot of ways to kind of get to the How to, and and things ways that you can access it at an inexpensive level or one where you might have a budget for Right. Like, that's how I look at it. I think one of the very first kind of super practical things to do is to see how hard is it really to take your phone and put it on the across the room? And how hard is it really if like, even just your kids, even if it's on employees, you get a walk in the room and you put the laptop lid down? And so you can't have extra email? You don't have extra phone? What are you feeling? So there's this idea of like self awareness in a moment? Why am I not present? What is it in me? That's that's causing me to need to be all over the place? Because people see it, they feel it? And how important is it for my for me to deliver this sense of being being seen, heard and valued to other people across from me? And if and if we feel like we land on the fact that that is super important to me, it's like a value of mine, let's just say the person Yes, but you're thinking yourself, this is really important that people know that I've heard them, then it's worth it to do the hard work. So you got to get the mindset, right, you got to have kind of that vision and value alignment on why you're even embarking on this. And then you can get to the hard work of say, hey, now let me get to the resources I know are available to me to figure out how I can get some of this practical stuff in place.
Yeah, yeah. Boy, that's such a good I mean, I can see this be part of the sound snippet of this episode, what you just unpacked, feels very actionable. Doesn't feel overwhelming. But it's also personal. So it allows me to gut check. Where am I? How am I showing up? How do I feel in these environments where I set my phone aside or shut my laptop lid? I mean, we all have been there that you know, but what about the individual who walks in when I've got 1300 things on my mind? And I'm in the middle of something. And I can tell by body language? They really need me to hear them right now. But I've got these priorities. What would be your coaching in that situation?
Yeah, I would I would. If it's if it's urgent, so I would I would probably ask them, Is this something that like, Can I Can I go back to them with full presence and an hour? Or do we need to address it right now. And if they say I need addressed right now that laptop lid is going down? Because I'm going to trust their gut about the situation they're in. Now, if it's someone who's calling, you know, fire in the hotel fire now to like every single day? Well, I'm going to maybe take that with a grain of salt. But it's okay. Oh, no, I understand really understand that. Okay, I'm gonna just give me 15 minutes, I just gotta finish up these last few things. And I'll come back and grab you. And we'll just talk, okay, if it's someone like that, but if it's if they come in, and it's like, the fire is in the building, and I've never really said this to you. And you've asked, like, Can I Can this wait 1520 minutes, I'll be I promise that I can give you my undivided attention. I can be fully present with you at that point. And if they're like, No, we need it right now. Laptop lives down that cell telephones gotta go away, I've got to give them that time. That's what I would say.
So good, so good. So again, to our listeners, the art of active listening how people at work, feel heard, valued and understood, recommend everybody get on the waitlist, get ready to buy the audible, get ready to purchase the book, and be on the lookout Heather, for all of your great courses that are going to be coming out and all of the resources. Now one of the questions I have for you is how do you define unconventional leadership?
Hmm. I would say it's leadership that doesn't just go along and get along some leadership that kind of bucked the trend. To a certain extent, it doesn't follow any necessarily a formula for things. I think it's led more by intuition, that it's led more by the needs of people around me. And I don't need to go to kind of any robotic way of showing up, but that I just decide to meet people in a human human way.
That's awesome. Awesome. Thank you for that definition. And Heather, what are you doing personally for your own leadership development, your own continued growth, what recent book or training or resource that you might be able to share with our listeners,
I go to conferences a couple times a year, like spirit conferences are just like there's one called no longer virtual, and I go and part of it is I'm mostly filled up by relationships. I'm an only child. I'm not extreme extrovert, but I I'm, I have some extraversion. And and so because of being the only child that by the virtue I like to, I'm fed by being around like small groups of people that I care about. They care deeply for me. So I'd say I learned more through relationship with discussion than I do necessarily through taking a course or reading a book. I do obviously, read books, but not nearly as heavy as one would think. And it's usually because they're referred to me it's a need in the moment. So I would say I don't seek him out nearly as actively as as maybe I should and or maybe I don't need to, I think I'm fed so much by people around me. I learned through interaction, sales. That's what I do. I just seek out the interaction and I seek to be fed through others.
That's great. That's great. Well, many of you listening to this know one of the things I love is a great podcast. Right? So Heather, you have a leadership podcast called leadership with the heart that comes out every week. And we encourage our listeners to also go and click that little plus sign and start following that as well. I know I have thoroughly enjoyed the conversations with the leadership with heart podcast. So thank you for doing that, too.
Thank you, Mike. Yeah, I love leadership at heart. It's so funny because I have someone with the the person who was my producer, when I first went to him, he's like, Are you sure you want that title? Why don't you just rest on it for a day and then come back to me? I'm like, Nope, that's exactly what I stand for. So that's what the title is going to be people who will either like it or go to it, and they or they won't. And that's not my business. It really isn't. So it's been pretty successful over these. Gosh, I can't believe it's been like early 2018. But it's, it's been it's been successful. But it's only because it really does come from the heart. And I'm okay with that. That's great.
That's great. Well, Heather, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Again, it's an honor to call you friend and colleague, and in trying to equip others to lead well, and then our own journeys being invulnerable along the way as well. So thank you for doing that. It's a real pleasure to call you friend.
Thank you. I feel the same with you. Mike really do. And everyone
thank you for tuning in to this week's episode. I encourage you to follow Heather subscribe to the podcast, begin the learning journey that she have the amazing material that she puts out, and we look forward to our next conversation. Thank you for listening to the unconventional leadership podcast. We hope you gain valuable insights and inspiration from today's episode. We invite you to join us on this journey of exploration and discovery as we continue to uncover the unconventional approaches and strategies that are shaping the future of leadership. Stay tuned for our next episode. Don't forget to subscribe rate and review the unconventional leadership podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Remember, being an unconventional leader means embracing new ideas and strategies to drive growth and innovation. So keep pushing the boundaries and challenge the status quo. And we'll see you next time on the unconventional leadership podcast.
