585: What It Really Takes to Grow a $10M Architecture Firm with David Supple of NEDC: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

585: What It Really Takes to Grow a $10M Architecture Firm with David Supple of NEDC

Enoch Sears48min

Speaker 1

00:00

My life quest, or my career quest, is really to reunite those that create the built environment.

Speaker 2

00:05

Hello and welcome back architect Nation. I'm Enoch Sears, and this is the show where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for running a more profitable and impactful architectural practice. Now if you haven't already headed over to Business of architecture.com and gotten access to our free 60 minute firm owner training. What are you waiting for? Are you waiting until your business collapses and burns under the stress of putting out fires day to day? Head on over there and discover how you can bring fulfillment and freedom back into your practice. That's Business of architecture.com right on the home page there, you'll see a link to that 60 minute free firm owner master class. Now with that, let's jump into today's interview with David supple. David, Hello and welcome. Hey, Enoch,

Speaker 1

00:45

back. Good to be back here for Adam Lee, yeah,

Speaker 2

00:48

you're You're welcome. So David supple is an author, humanitarian, founder and CEO. He graduated from Tufts architecture. He leads New England design and construction, which is a design build firm based in Boston that has a wide range of projects and a number of awards, and he's built an impressive team. So we're not going to catalog all the all the great things that David's done. We're just going to say that, hey, the fact that he's here on the podcast means he's he's doing good work, and he wants to come on here and share some of the lessons learned about building a practice, specifically the design in the design build area. So as Dave and I were talking before the podcast here, I said, Hey, David, this is not the this is not the podcast where it's like, David is the most amazing person in the world. This is, like the real raw story of, like, hard earned business building. And so that's hopefully, that's what we're going to talk about today. Yeah, go do it. And now a short message from our sponsor, accurate data is crucial, especially in today's business environment, outdated and inaccurate data leads to turnarounds, delays and rising costs. With supply chain and staffing issues, these costs and delays can multiply. That's why having a resource like our cat is so important. Our cat works with building product manufacturers to keep their data up to date and accurate and offers it to you easily accessible and free. Use our cat's powerful search engine to find what you need and download right there on their site without needing to pay anything or even register. So try our cat.com today, that's our cat, A R, C, A t.com, David, you began All right, so you graduate from Tufts architecture now I believe. Tell me, are you licensed? I

Speaker 1

02:33

have not. So we are a licensed architecture firm. I am not a licensed architect. So the way we are licensed, we can call ourselves licenses. I have, you know, license architects in the firm, one is on an officer, and so we've gone through the steps to be able to like fit that legal definition. I, you know, I do consider myself, you know, a competent designer. I'm not a, I'm not a a with a, with a, you know, capital A, but, you know, I would, that's who we that's who I love to compete against. Is just traditional architecture firms who don't build. So our positioning is really architects who build.

Speaker 2

03:19

Yeah, that makes sense. Got it, okay, perfect. And was there any particular business logic or decision behind you not getting licensed? Or was it, yeah,

Speaker 1

03:27

I mean, it helps us. I was the engineering, you know, known, first engineering program, but I actually did the liberal liberal arts, so it was a non accredited so by the time I did work for architecture firm, you know, so I have, but like, at a certain point, you know, it was kind of, like too much of a pain. I couldn't, like, figure out how to go back and do it, and I was already too deep into the business to, like, you know, go back to school or what have you. So, yeah, I

Speaker 2

04:00

hear you, yeah. Well, Jonathan Segal, you know, who does a lot of work in San Diego, he has an interesting take on that. He was like, he actually recommends architects people not to get licensed.

Speaker 1

04:10

Oh, that, right, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I guess there's a path to to go to to not be what's his. Why does He say that? Like, what's his well,

Speaker 2

04:21

and specifically, with regards to people who are going to develop or build, okay, right? Because that's, that's kind of the business he's in, yeah. So he's letting that developer need to have a license, right? Then, just hire, hire the architect. So great. I'm glad we clarified that. Now, let's, let's talk about, you know, how did you, did you always want to run a business?

Speaker 1

04:42

No, it's really by default, how I fell into this, you know, I short stories. I was graduated, I started working as architect. I realized, like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Like, I had a kind of a come to, you know, you know, a company, an awakening, if you will, and that I. Um, you know, I was in the office. I had a project that our firm had designed. It was, you know, in construction, somebody from the site called and I was the only one who could kind of help at that point. And he was asking about a door detail, and I pulled up the drawing, and I had no clue what I was looking at. I couldn't answer his questions, and he got frustrated. And he was like, I and I wanted nothing more to help this guy. You know? I was like, and I just felt so deficient and insecure at that point. I was like, God, damn. Like, how was my job? What telling people what to do and how to build, what to build, but I've never built anything in my life, and so I actually from that I was out on the West Coast. At that point, I moved back to the Boston area, and I just took a job as a carpenter with the intent fill that void. I felt like I was never going to be able to like progress unless I had filled that void. And I never, I never truly made it. As a carpenter, I worked. I did that for a bit, and I got let go. I didn't have a job, and I started my company, really as like a means to, like, survive and make money. And I took any job I could at that point that was, you know, next year will be 20 years, but was just kind of scraping, and wasn't like this well thought out plan.

Speaker 2

06:28

Yeah, got it, okay. So for those who are listening, David does have a team of about 25 people on his team right now includes interior designers, architects, managers, construction professionals. So you know, as we, as we talk with David, obviously, this is, this is not a guy who who doesn't know anything about business. This is a guy who's been through, he has some battle scars, right? He has some scars of wisdom, and he's doing great work in the Boston area. He's built a good business. And it sounds like you started out, literally going from being a carpenter to hustling jobs. What were some of the early jobs you got? Do you remember, like one of your very first job? I

Speaker 1

07:02

mean, very first job? I mean, a bathroom was, like, a nice job for me. You know, that was like a step up. I was doing, like, handyman work, because I was literally trying to fill a void still, like, even I have, I had lost my job as a carpenter, I was still kind of trying to fill that void so I would get a job I hadn't a lot of the time. I had never done that type of project before, and I would like, kind of figure it out, hire some, you know, trades people, and just kind of make it go right. And then. So it's been a very, very gradual build up. And now our average size is, you know, much larger. And, you know, kind of, but it, but it was very gradual.

Speaker 2

07:46

Thanks for that, David. Now I'm curious, you know, as how well was there a point, how long did it take? Was there a point where you thought, you know, you kind of got to the point where I think, I, I've made it, you know, or like, you're kind of getting out of that hustle to, you know, taking any bathroom remodel project and just like, kind of getting to a place of, okay, I got something going on here. I'm seeing a company form in here. I can, can relax a little

Speaker 1

08:11

bit, yeah, no, I don't feel like that now that guys, yeah, yeah. I don't particularly feel like that. I mean, I feel like I have a great theme. I feel like we do an incredible job, but I feel like there's so much potential and opportunity there. And, you know, I do feel like I have amazing people in place. So I guess for me, I initially, like, there wasn't a huge design component when there was one. I definitely fill that void and I didn't have like the carpentry background to fall back on, like as a contractor, so I kind of I had more of a design was much more of like a design background. So that's kind of where I fell to. And as I developed my team, I got rid of the I got folks very easily, more competent in me on the build side, but I oversaw the design side, and I held that, you know, until a certain point. And I went through several design directors before I settled on one that was really like, filled that void and got me the hell out of there and allowed me to sell more kind of look, you know, do a little more in quality, uh, control, oversight. So that was a big stepping stone for, for me as a business, was, was making that transition and and combining some of that, how many, what?

Unknown Speaker

09:32

How many years in was that,

Speaker 1

09:34

you know, over 10, you know, like 12, okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2

09:40

So those first 1012, years, and was, was there a point where, like, when was how long did it take until you got your first kind of design project? We're

Speaker 1

09:49

like, Yeah, I remember, I mean, that is the, I remember, there was a client. It was a referral from a landscape, uh, architect, design build firm. And this person is, like, a select. Bernie now. And it was, I remember, like, sitting down with them, and then they were like, listen, our priority is not, it's like quality. We want an amazing project. And I was like, Oh, wow, I like this, this, that this feels good, like we, I need some more of these clients, so that that was, and that was probably, like, eight years in or so seven, you know, I want to say, like, at least five over five years, but, yeah, that that was a big stepping stone for us of like, okay, here, here's more where we need to be, and more of these. These are the clients we want.

Speaker 2

10:38

What would you like if you were to go back and talk to earlier self, like, 2005 version of you. What do you think would that person be most surprised by about running a business?

Speaker 1

10:49

What would that person be most surprised about? Like, look like, being where I am now, and, and,

Speaker 2

10:55

yeah, like knowing, like, if you came and sat down with him and said, Hey, man, here's what it's all about. Like, if you or if he wouldn't use shoes right now? Yeah, I didn't realize this. Well, you know,

Speaker 1

11:03

it's interesting, because I feel pretty competent. I think about that sometimes I'm like, Man, if I could have the knowledge I had back, then I'm just much more informed, even, like, you know, in the architectural world, like, I just know more, I have more, so much more confidence I was still learning, you know, I got out of architecture school, I still didn't kind of know shit I like, you know. So I guess I would have kind of shortcut my educational, like, you know, been like, Okay, here's what the hell you need to fill the void in to gain that confidence quicker, as opposed to just going through the pitfalls and kind of figuring it out more trial and error. So like, you know, having having an established model, and that's something now that I'm really trying to, you know, establish, really selfishly, for my company, to train those within the company. But I do feel like there's a the potential there for for like you, like you know, helping others with, with lessons learned.

Speaker 2

12:09

What would be some of those skill sets, knowledge gaps that you would download,

Speaker 1

12:13

I mean, yourself, yeah, the thing I'm most passionate about is just the integration of design and construction. I feel like that as as a, as a group, we have been duped on, and that is kind of what I feel like I have to give back. But honestly, a lot of it was would just be on, like design knowledge, like historical knowledge. I have so much more, you know, competency in that area on just homes, like a lot of the homes we do are on, we don't do a lot of new construction. It's dealing with an older housing stock. So a lot of it now where I feel like I can kind of, you know, show my, my, my level of experience is in that area. So you know that that's, that's one area that has helped me a lot. But, yeah,

Speaker 2

13:12

I was talking with a client of ours who does just these amazing homes, like in the Hamptons, you know, like really high end residential stuff. And he was mentioning that there is a, almost a crisis right now of these old trades kind of disappearing. In other words, people that know the old ways that things were done, and people that even you mentioned, like the traditional home designs, you know the way that those things were masked, the way that the symmetry, or lack of symmetry, worked the design. Are you seeing anything like that in the Boston area in terms of, like, having difficulty finding people that can do that level of work?

Speaker 1

13:47

Yeah, I mean, they're there. So I think, you know, not as much. I actually feel like there, there's, it's more on the design side, where there's an opportunity for, I don't, you know, like I have, I went through my education, right? And then I have gleaned whatever I have gleaned from, like, folks graduating and working for my firm as as designers. And I feel like that is actually the shortcoming more so on the, you know, knowledge base of, like, call it classical architecture. And kind of the styles that form formulated from that which, you know, up until modernism was, like, every style was, you know, classical based and, and just the inherent, you know, proportions and and system that that was built on, even when you get into modernism like I think having a foundation in that can really aid in your ability to to design properly and have things look like, Look coherent and and and beautiful.

Speaker 2

14:57

Okay, now when we look at shifting over to the business. Side. Did you ever have one of those times where you're like, Man, I don't know if we're gonna make it through this

Unknown Speaker

15:04

month? Yeah? Yeah. Definitely. Like, losing clients.

Unknown Speaker

15:10

You know about, tell me about, yeah,

Speaker 1

15:11

I mean, early on, just had a client who, like, bailed on us when we were about to go into construction. Things were kind of tight already. And you know, one thing I've, um, we make our money in construction, like, as an architecture firm, we would be, uh, bankrupt. So, you know, I'm not the best model. I think I could learn a ton from you on profitability, on the design side. But we've always, like, made our money in in the construction so, you know, that's an area of an improvement. I think we still, we still have, but I think it's, it's it's something to be aware of. I don't know if that's a commonality with design build firms. I think a lot of design build firms are more contractor centric. I think we're part of our differentiation is like being true design architects who build, but, like, there is, that is just a point of, you know, opportunity, I think is, is in architects building and and, you know, and the profitability that that is possible there, but, you know, at that, at that point, like that, was probably like, I don't know, over 10 years ago, I remember having to let, let somebody go. Kind of somebody had the low hanging fruit there, somebody who wasn't performing so well, had let, first time I let somebody go. But, but, yeah, we made it through

Speaker 2

16:45

and and let someone go. What else does David do? Like that, that guy back then, 10 years ago, when that client says, hey, look, no, we're out. You're like, Damn okay, I let someone go. What else did you I

Speaker 1

16:57

mean, hit the street. Like, start promoting. Yeah, I'm sorry, promoting.

Unknown Speaker

17:01

What does that look like? I

Speaker 1

17:03

mean, at that time, I'm not totally sure what our kind of main driver was. You know, networking. We did flyers for a long time, like in prominent neighborhoods, we would hit the streets and just that's how I really started. We haven't done that in quite a bit, but whatever successful actions we had had in the past, we we, we re implemented and got going on.

Speaker 2

17:32

And what are your What are your methods now in terms of promotion that you find?

Speaker 1

17:37

Yeah, so definitely, you know, try to promote word of mouth and referrals and repeat clients. And being almost 20 years in business now, we have, like, had a good amount of repeat those are by far the best. So just, you know, staying active with them, staying in front of them. We do do kind of the, there's, you know, the bunch of, kind of prominent magazines. So we kind of keep our name there, but we'd rather not do that. They're expensive, and we kind of there's a bit of, like, pay to play, I feel, just to be honest with y'all, with those so we do like enough to like, stay relevant, and they'll do some organic pieces. I think that helps with that a little bit social media, no, really trying to increase our efforts in that area. I feel like we have a lot to give back in that area. And so, you know, that's, that's an area that we're, we're, hopefully you're going to see more of us in.

Unknown Speaker

18:44

Okay, what is your what is the revenue of your company right now?

Speaker 1

18:48

So we're, we're, the past couple of years, we've done a little bit under 10 million. We're looking to hit 10 million this year, and about, you know, 10% of that is design revenue, so that our design fees are percentage based, and it's eight to 12% based on the size of the project. The bigger it is. You know, we like 800k or above. We do 8% between 308 100, we do 10% and then we don't really do a lot of projects under three 300 but if we do, it's 12%

Speaker 2

19:23

okay, got it. And what does the profit look like? You say you're making profit on the construction. Where does the margin come from? Is it from markup of materials? It's it.

Speaker 1

19:31

It's all you know. If our if our project cost a million dollars, our costs on it are 70 700,000 and then that 30 in construction. 30% is, you know, 20% is overhead, indirect costs. And then we hope to achieve a 10% profit in construction. And if I break even on design, like, historically, you know, I'm making like, 5% net. On my design cost. So I'm like, kind of, you know, there's definitely room for improvement there. But like, like I mentioned, that's just not where we make our money. So I'm really, we really look at design as a way to set up a successful project. And, you know, make sure it's, it's, it's set up to be successful. What

Speaker 2

20:28

do you what do you think is the most important thing to keep something like this going? Because having ten million so is your bank account, that's, that's, that's a lot of money passing through. What do you think is the necessary pieces to make something like that be sustainable for you? Yeah,

Speaker 1

20:44

I mean, it's, it's, you know, taking those successful actions learned over the years is and imparting those to folks as you bring them on, and training them in those successful actions. That's really, I would say, the key. Because, you know, as you, as you grow and scale. The thing that you have the potential for is like, not repeating those successful the ways that got you there new people. You know, you have to hire people. Those new people are new. So if you are not intentional with that, they're going to learn from trial and error. And that's not, you know, you're going to kind of go downhill at a certain point because it's just going to be too much. So I think the only way we're going to be able to grow from here is to really put in a training program where, you know, we can bring new people in and and not have a step down in just that level of quality and experience that we provide to folks.

Unknown Speaker

21:43

David, what is your sales process look like?

Speaker 1

21:45

So it's, it's consultative. So we do a, you know, we call it an intake, but people who reach out, we, you know, we have a series of questions to identify, like, if we're a potential good fit, we are very transparent with cost up front, because we just find that it's, it's better for everybody to just talk openly about that and and then we go out and we do a design consultation. So we go in person, and, and, you know, we're very free with ideas. Like, I will sketch out ideas. I know, I know that's like, not supposed to be doing that, per se, but for me, what I'm trying to do that's really how we differentiate ourselves, you know, definitely from contractors. I mean, contractors are not doing that and so, but really, like for me, what I'm trying to do with that client is create an outline of a project that it makes sense, because in an hour's consultation, I'm basically like, looking to get them to decide that they're going to roll with us on a million dollar plus product. So it's a short kind of window, and I want to provide the the, you know, the opportunity to display our level of competence and kind of give them, you know, an idea of our thought process and what's to come so that. And then we, you know, we our design proposal does stipulate an estimated range of construction costs. So it's 25% we say, you know, it's not there's not like things can change in design. You know, the scope can shift. We can, we can discover things in design. But, you know, in a nutshell, that's, that's our sales process.

Speaker 2

23:42

Okay? And I didn't, I kind of missed that when you said a 25% that was referring to,

Speaker 1

23:48

that was so if I'm like, Hey, I think your project is going to cost a million dollars, yeah, I say put a 25% swing on it. Got it typically goes,

Speaker 2

23:58

percent, typically, yeah, I'm sure, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, what do you think it is? Have you noticed any patterns? And when people say yes, or when you feel like there's a good fit with you guys, why do they end up choosing you? June? Do you have a feel for that?

Speaker 1

24:13

Yeah, I think it's, you know. I think it is, you know, coming up with ideas that are kind of out of the box, that haven't been explored. They're not fully refined or developed, but it's really just like displaying that level of competence of like, oh wow. These guys brought something to the table that I had never thought of and and then they put it in the context of, it's not just an idea, but it's grounded in the realism of execution. So I think that's the thing that's hard to compete with, like, on the architect side, if you're solely an architect, that's like, I'm I, I would I like that all day because, you know, just the accountability I've. And like, Hey, we're not going anywhere. So like, what I tell you is often higher than most people are telling folks, but you know it's, I think it means a little bit more because we are not going anywhere. And

Speaker 2

25:16

how often do you get people who are price shopping with your In other words, you're you give them the proposal, and they say, Oh, these guys can do it cheaper. Yeah,

Speaker 1

25:23

yeah, you know, I mean it. I think it happened. It definitely happened. So we try to, that's why we have those conversations very early on, you know, on cost. And just make sure, like, Hey, are we in the ballpark. You know, we put out a cost guy every year. We this information is kind of hard to come by. I feel like, in our industry, the game is like, don't tell them until it's too late, and then they then they're like, in it, and they're like, if they're affluent enough, they're like, oh shit. I would have liked to known that earlier, but okay, and if they're not, they're like, the project doesn't happen. So, you know, I feel like that's why I want to change that a little bit and just like, hey, here's what the hell these projects cost, which this is all the projects we do. And just, I'd rather, you know, up front and just figure it out and know what to expect, than than have surprises and, you know, along the way,

Speaker 2

26:23

what would you say is the most, you know, frustrating part about running a business for you?

Speaker 1

26:32

I mean, right now, I have something in my mind, but I'd say overall, you know, it's, I feel like it's a game for me to to really shed hats, you know, like, if I look at the trajectory of my time in this company, like initially I was wearing every freaking hat, and so through, through time I've, I've shed hats. And I think that's the challenge in the game that I enjoy, is like establishing, like, bring on people that are better than you in those positions and and that push you up into, you know, you know, ability to do more and better things. So I don't know that it's like the thing I don't like about it, but I would, I would have liked to have been further along than I am. So, you know, there was a time I made a huge mistake. I'd say the biggest mistake I've made in my business is I hired a couple executives like, I like them. They I thought they were great, and I was like, and I kind of peaced out to a large degree. They were never embraced or accepted by my people. It was just the wrong thing to do, and I lost a lot of great talent over that time. So that was, that was a, you know, a, definitely a lesson learned there. And so it set me back a bit, but, but since then, you know, have really looked to, like, promote from within, and, you know, reward people for, you know, their production, and, and, and that's been really successful for me.

Speaker 2

28:13

What do we say is the the funnest thing about running a business for you,

Speaker 1

28:22

I think, you know, I mean, I love the interaction with my team. We meet every morning. We have a morning meeting a lot. It's all virtual. So some folks are together, but some are not. But I feel like, you know, we're on a quest together to, you know, create an example for the industry that that is a notch above the current. And I feel like that. You know that adventure with my team is what I love the

Speaker 2

28:53

most. Yeah, you mentioned that you you live down in down in Tampa and Florida, yep. And then the work you guys do is up in Boston, yes,

Speaker 1

29:03

yeah. So that, you know, when I the this challenge I had, or this guy, error, mistake I made, was when I initially moved down to Tampa, and it was initially only going to be for a few months. You know, COVID hit, and my me and my family got settled in, but that's when I learned those lessons. And because the people I put in charge were never really embraced or accepted, and kind of, they were new. And so I always, you know, went back and forth a bit, and I continued to do that. I'm looking to get my family relocated back up north now, but, but I have a great team, so I mean that that has made it possible for me to do this for the past, like five or seven years.

Speaker 2

29:54

What do you think? I mean, that's pretty that's, that's, that's rare to have a business owner who can. Run a business remotely like that. What do you think was the key in actually making that happen for you? I

Speaker 1

30:04

mean, just empowering people, like hiring good people, and then empowering them to do their jobs and trusting them. I'm not like, you know, if you're not a self motivator and have initiative. You're not going to last long in my company, like it's just not going to be tolerated. That's kind of the environment we have here is, is high producing, it's fun, it's high taste, but, you know, you got to kind of bring the goods. And so I think partly just creating that culture, and then, you know, kind of a team keeping, keeping it itself in check, and, and, yeah,

Speaker 2

30:47

you said you had an unpleasant issue right now in your mind, yeah,

Speaker 1

30:51

yeah. I mean, I have, like, somebody who I who it's kind of underperforming, who I had expected more from. So

Unknown Speaker

31:00

people issue,

Unknown Speaker

31:03

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

31:06

Now you said, you know, hire good people, man, it's, I mean, that isn't that the golden ticket. What? How do you recognize good people?

Speaker 1

31:15

Yeah. I think for us, you know, is really, I feel like part of the success is, like people who are passionate about what we are doing, like this. I consider this like a movement, almost on reuniting those that design and construct. I feel like it's completely artificial to have these sides. It was never meant to be. It was done for the wrong reason. So, like, if you come from a, you know, a strictly designed background, and you've been doing that for 1015, years, you're going to probably have a tough time, because I expect a lot like my, my designers, you know, are tasked with more, even though we have, like, estimators and folks that help line up the trades like I expect, my designers are really determining those costs while they are designing, and I hold them accountable for that. So if you're, if you're like, oh, but that's their job. That's not my that's not you know, you're going to have, you're going to have a tough time with us. So that's one thing, you know, we look at and, you know, I love when folks have had a build experience. It's not what I had coming out, but just a recognition of like we are one cohesive team and that that is really important to me. Yeah. What

Speaker 2

32:42

does it look like when you hold someone accountable? You mentioned that you hold your designers accountable for designing in the budget. What does that can Yeah, what that conversation looks like like? How do you approach that conversation? Let's say someone's gone over budget. You're just noticing they're underperforming. How does David talk about that with them?

Speaker 1

32:59

I mean, definitely bring it up to them, you know, I think at a certain point it's like, you know, we have this, you know, you know, train them first. Like, if, if they haven't been trained and they're making mistakes, it's kind of like, Duh, you know, that's, that's on you. But if the if you've invested, if you've trained this person, like, you know, they kind of know it, you know, what the expectations are, you know, there that then it's like, at a certain point, you just need to, kind of, you know, make, make a change there. So, but I think so a big part of it is just setting expectations up front with those individuals and like, Hey, here's, this is different. This is not that we love, you know, we've developed now a really nice kind of internal graduation of designers from, you know, interns to assistants to to, you know, lead designers. So that's been, you know, beautiful we have, you know, I love it when people have build experience, but if they don't, we have a program internally to get them out into the field. Because I felt like that was so valuable for me as a designer. Was like just looking at screens, and when I got that call, you know, I had no idea what the hell I was looking at, because I just didn't have, I was looking at things in, you know, two dimensions. I needed to, like, go out and, like, touch it and feel it and experience. So I think, you know, that's, that's something that's important to us. And, yeah, you're not going to know it all instantly. So, you know, you know, it takes some time to like, even somebody who is starting out doesn't have, like, all the fixed ideas, and that's not me, you know, it takes some time to figure that out. But, and we don't, you know, I've done a better job lately of not. Just throwing people into the fire. I think that's kind of how I learned. So I initially I would just like, like, be like, Okay, go do this. And like, didn't always get the best result.

Speaker 2

35:14

How do you know then when it's time to let someone go, what's your process for that?

Speaker 1

35:17

Yeah, we have, like, a HR, like, disciplinary, like, hey, expectations are not being made, making sure that's documented. Hey, this is what we do expect. This is a time in which we expect to see these changes and then follow through with those. You know, we have, we have a set review process twice a year, and so, yeah, so we just, you know, we keep on it and, yeah, we have high expectations. So it's, like I said, if somebody is underperforming, it's not, it's not a place they're gonna, they're not gonna want to be around, you know, they're not. A lot of times the folks just like exit themselves prior to that, that it coming to letting them go, because they kind of recognize, you know what, what? What's it's just not a fit for them. Looking back, what

Speaker 2

36:17

would you say? Let's talk about wins. David, what would you say was, is your biggest win? Looking back the 12? So he,

Speaker 1

36:27

I think, you know, we just got this passive house certified, and so that was, that was a big one. I don't know if it was our biggest win.

Speaker 2

36:37

What was the one where you went home and you cracked some champagne? Yeah, you know,

Speaker 1

36:40

we just got this award. There's this guild quality. I don't know if you've heard of them, but they're like a third party. So we got, we've, it's now been 11 years in a row where we've got this Guild Master award, and that is something I've been proud of. You look at, like, the percentage of folks that use guild quality, it's a very low percentage. And then if you look at the ones that have won that award for 10 years or more, it's, it's under 20 in the US and Canada, so and that that was, like, hard fought, you know, that is like, that is, you know, You don't get that. That's like following up and serving each and every client we've ever had and and so I think that that, like, says something on on just our commitment to the client experience and their satisfaction. So that that one I was proud of, what

Speaker 2

37:36

would you say is the key to getting that commitment to the client satisfaction down through the ranks of the team.

Speaker 1

37:43

It definitely starts with you as the owner, just your expectations and what your standards are. And for me, it's like, Hey, this is this is the standard. This is the acceptable standard. Like, nothing below that is acceptable, so, you know. And then having folks keep having the folks that that resonates with, and that is easily agreed upon. And, you know, I think, but that is the number one thing is just like you setting that standard of that kind of ideal scene and and what you're not willing to step below, because, like, I will go myself and handle something if I need to, to ensure, ensure that and that. And I have others, you know, with that same mindset. So

Speaker 2

38:34

I'm curious, David, how do you, how do you handle the stress? Man, like back in the day when you lost that project. Of those, those, you know, it was going to construction, and you guys were already on your back foot. Like, what does it look like in David's personal life, man, you go take a walk in the park. Yeah, go get drunk. And, no, I

Speaker 1

38:53

mean the I left the drugs and alcohol largely behind after college and, you know, yeah, I've tried to be healthy always, you know, but definitely, you know, my my friends and family, my my church is a big, is a big, you know, been super, super helpful for me. I had this one colleague and I, and I tried this a few times, and it works is like it earlier on in my career, like if we if I had an upset, particularly if you were like in my company, I would tell you in a not nice way, and that, that, that I've learned over the years, but one thing that I started to do was just get a sledge hammer and go out and beat up like a two by four, so that that that that was helpful a few times.

Speaker 2

39:51

Yeah, that sounds like an excellent way just to really let it out and then let it out absolutely, yeah, and 100% better the two by four than an employee. That's right. You know, at least verbally, yeah, but physically too,

Speaker 1

40:03

no, I definitely never did the physical thing, but definitely verbally, you know, would let, let it, let it go, and, and,

Speaker 2

40:12

yeah, and any regrets looking back. I mean, I know a lot of people say I don't have regrets, and I get that. But like, you know, if you could go back through

Speaker 1

40:20

your podcast, and was like, Damn, I should be be making more money in design, you know, I've thought about it since then a little bit, because I've been like, you know, I never really it was just the way we did it, right? So it's just the way we've always done it. And I think there are some plus points to just that. You know, we don't have to. It's kind of nice, right? Like that. We don't have to, and we can, like, just focus on setting up that, because the product is the build, right? That is what we leave behind. So I kind of like that. But, you know, there's so many rooms for we are leaving so much on the table, as good as we may be, or think we are, or compared to others. Like, I just feel like, if you compare our industry to other industries that make things, and you look at the errors, the like, the whatever that rating is, it's like, ours is awful. There is so much. There is so much, and I do believe that the real reason behind all of that is the separation between the architect and builder. I mean the architect built for millennia, throughout time that the architects. You know this, the word means master builder in its purest sense. And so I think the more we can get back to that and emulate that, you know, I think the better off we'll be as an industry.

Unknown Speaker

41:49

What's, what's the biggest challenge that you're finding right now? David, at this stage in business,

Speaker 1

41:57

you know? Let's see here. I don't know about our biggest challenge, you know? I mean, I think it is people like we're hiring right now. And so I think, you know, finding talented people, finding the people we need, can be a challenge. I think, you know, that's the area that maybe we have the most attention on right now. I think that's for me, part of my strategy with the social media is to, like, create more of a word of mouth, like a place that is sought out by others because they're aware of it. And I do, I do think that will help.

Speaker 2

42:46

Hmm, and what's, what's the vision? Where would you like to go from here? Do you want to maintain where you're at, pass it on to someone else? You want to grow it? What's, yeah,

Speaker 1

42:54

I mean, I do want to grow it at I really want to be active. I've done a lot. I've written a book already. You know, have several others in the midst of, or at least articles that will, will will turn into books. And I would really like to, like my life quest, or my career quest, is really to reunite those that create the built environment. You know, you have all these segregated if you look at educationally, particularly Boston, you know, there's all these universities. They have architecture engineering, construction management, they're still completely secluded and segregated for it, from each other, no cross pollination, no collaboration. And so then you have an industry that replicates that, and and so, you know, my goal is to address that and bring us together, and I think for the outcome of better buildings, and, you know, a better world as a result of that

Speaker 2

43:58

Beautiful Well, David, it's been great having on the podcast. One last question here. I don't know if you're much into books or podcasts, but if there's one resource that's helped you in your business growth, what would it be?

Speaker 1

44:13

I've listened to this guy's books like two or two or three times each, and his name is David Goggins.

Unknown Speaker

44:20

Oh, David Goggins, dude, yeah,

Unknown Speaker

44:23

yeah, to hurt me and yeah, you

Unknown Speaker

44:25

like about David Goggin stuff.

Speaker 1

44:28

Just, I think as a comparable, if I feel like I have anything going on in my world that's unidealistic or tough or whatever, it just puts things in perspective. For me, the this guy's mentality and his mindset and just work ethic and just overall drive and ability to overcome things. It's like, Dude, it's, he just shows that anything is possible. It's really, you know, it's like, it. It's like what you decide to do,

Speaker 2

45:02

dude. So one of the most inspiring books I've listened to, yeah, it can't hurt me. And definitely don't want to listen to that one if you're offended by four letter words, because David doesn't hold back. No, he doesn't That dude is he's funny.

Speaker 1

45:13

It's a it's a great, it's a great. Yeah, it's an awesome book. Both of them, he has left. Second one is really good as well.

Unknown Speaker

45:20

You know, it's got a decent name too. And all right, David, hey, thanks for coming on the podcast today.

Speaker 2

45:29

It's been great sharing your hard earned lessons here with the Business of Architecture. Community. Awesome.

Unknown Speaker

45:34

Thanks for having me, Enoch,

Speaker 2

45:36

and that's a wrap. Hey, Enoch, Sears here, and I have a request, since you are a listener here of the Business of Architecture podcast, Ryan and I, we love putting this podcast together. We love sharing information as much as we can glean from all the other industries that we're a part of to bring it back to empower you as an architect and a designer. One thing that helps us in our mission is the growth of this podcast simply because it helps other architects stand for more of their value. Spreads the business information that we're sharing to empower architects together, so architects, designers, engineers, can really step into their greatness, whatever that looks like for each individual. And so here my my simple ask is for you to join us and be part of our community by doing the following, heading over to iTunes and leaving a review of the podcast. And as an expression of our sincere thanks, we would like to give you a free CEU course that can get you one professional development unit. But more importantly, we'll give you a very solid and firm foundation on your journey to becoming a profitable and thriving architect. So here's the process for that. After you leave us review, send an email to support at Business of architecture.com let us know the username that you use to leave the review, and we will send you that free training. On the training, you'll discover what 99% of architecture firm owners wished they would have known 20 years ago, and the other 1% well, they just didn't even know that. They didn't know head over to iTunes and leave us a review now and now. A short message from our sponsor, accurate data is crucial, especially in today's business environment, outdated and inaccurate data leads to turnarounds, delays and rising costs. With supply chain and staffing issues, these costs and delays can multiply. That's why having a resource like our cat is so important. Our cat works with building product manufacturers to keep their data up to date and accurate and offers it to you, easily accessible and free. Use our cat's powerful search engine to find what you need and download right there on their site without needing to pay anything or even register. So try our cat.com today. That's our cat, A R, C, A, t.com, the views expressed on the show by my guest do not represent those of the hosts and I make no representation. Promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you conquer the world. Carpe, Diem, you.

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