Support for this show is brought to you by our friends at Bloomerang. Bloomerang offers donor management and online fundraising software that helps small to medium nonprofits like First Tee of greater Akron, and nonprofit empowering kids and teens through the game of golf.
After just one year with Bloomerang, they doubled their unique donors, improved donor stewardship and raise more funds to listen to the full interview of First Tee of greater Akron visit bloomerang.com/we are for good, or click the link in our show notes. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
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So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, what's happening,
John, we have your brother from another mother in the house, I'm convinced
I know we've stacked the deck like I'm going to try to keep my geek in check over here. But you know, when we take to talk to fellow designers that just kind of see the world differently. I love where the conversations go and kind of grow and so huge honor to have our new friend Javon van Graan. Again today on the podcast. He's the creative director and founder of both 50 and 50. And donate late and we're going to break down kind of what both of those are. But playing both sides of the deck have just an agency kind of mind and also a product serving empowering the sector. But he just has this really incredible path. I mean, he has worked as an art director for incredible organizations like Digitaria and Invisible Children. And he found it 50 and 50 back in 2009 to put nonprofit web design and branding on the same playing field as fortune 500 brands. And this is kind of a topic we really want to camp out on today. Because, you know, if you hang around this podcast much we don't like hanging in scarcity mindset. We don't like just living in an echo chamber only talking among ourselves, but looking at the world and looking at how we can draw inspiration and really raise the bar for what's possible within our organizations in the way that we engage with people. And so we're really delighted to have this conversation today. Javon and his wife, Candace also married to Candace, they have sons named Sebastian and Graham and along with a brindle boxer named Bronx, so we got to meet your pup too before we get off the podcast. But thanks for being here. We're so delighted to have you in the podcast today. Oh.
Hopefully he sleeps well, we'll see if anybody comes in the door. But yeah,
I love it. Our pups are all in the same room. Javin truly honored to have you in the podcast today. So I mean, let's just tone set. I mean, tell us a little bit of your story I gave like the smallest ever bio, but fill in the gaps, like what led you into this work? And kind of catch up to what you're doing today?
Yeah, yeah. So my, my start was at a digital agency here was digitary has now turned into Mirim. As an art director, it was what I had always wanted to do, I was really passionate about graphic design and about digital design in particular, and really quickly, kind of caught myself in a spot where belief was really coming up over and over again, and really caring about what it is that I was designing for. I didn't know that that that was there. But as I got into my mid 20s, it really didn't matter what I designed for and kind of felt like I was in a place where that that trajectory for my career wasn't going to be there. And that's when I met a handful of people over at Invisible Children. If you don't know who they are, they made an amazing documentary. Oh my gosh. 20s. Yeah. And they and I was there when came, you know, they first put it on a CD and said, Hey, we made something. What do you think? And could we do anything with this? And I was blown away. I mean, the film itself was amazing. But the heart of the three individuals that went and the story in Uganda what was going on? Like, how could you not get pulled in that direction. And it was something in me that just woke up. And I recognized that the skill set that I have needs to be put towards something like this. So it was an original, let's bring this in. The agency was awesome. They did pro bono work, they let us that that kind of ball start to roll a little bit. And over time, it was just like this has to be everything that I do. So I went to Invisible Children for about three years and was responsible for everything in that kind of digital art arena. And then from there, I realized that there's so many stories, so many causes that need this type of focus, right. And you know, fast forward 12 years, that's what we've been doing. We started the agency. We started donate Lee, which was a product that needed to make fundraising simpler and make that kind of technology in the tech stack behind fundraising easier for organizations to manage. You're not talking about fortune 500 companies, you're talking about five to 10 person mom and pop shops, interns, people that need to be able to do this easily and get back to their day job which is saving the world right so the agency has had that focus which is purpose driven brands and stories and we do work with everybody as large as the UN casual United Way's in the world to you know, documentaries, the game changer documentary around plant based eating and brands like LifeStraw and bio, like groups that are kind of building inclusive business models into what they're doing and really are building mission and purpose into these brands. And there's no one size fits all for any of that, right? You could be a giant company that does that. And you know, groups like Sony or Qualcomm here in San Diego, they have missions that they kind of work in, in the same vein as impact, right? Where does technology go? How do we film and tell stories that you can build impact into any organization, or you take the route of being just a small little coffee producer that you know grows in, supports a community in Guatemala or something to that effect. So we're embedded large and small Love it, love the product, work, love the services work, I stay in the weeds, probably more than I should. Because I want to read or so.
On sounds familiar,
I just keep thinking like, We are the lucky ones. Javin. Like the fact that you would choose to go into this work, take your talents, understand that the whole picture of our story needs to be told in a way that connects with people. And we can't just tell our story at our galas, we can't just tell our stories. In Email, there's got to be a whole picture created here that has movement, and rhythm, and feeling and nuance. And these are the things that brands bring. And that's when we look at like the top Fortune 500 brands, we know them instantly, they give us a feeling they give us a sense. And I love that you're bringing that into the purpose space. And I want to talk to you like a little bit about that. Because one of the main trends we've been lifting the season is marketing is mission. And we believe that marketing is no longer just this facet of your mission. It's your mission manifested. And we want nonprofits to start thinking themselves as a new media company, maybe embracing branding, storytelling and innovative marketing. So talk to us about your thoughts on the intersection of nonprofit missions and digital marketing strategies as you see them today.
Yeah, we use the the terminology oftentimes when we're talking to a corporation saying when we come in, we'd like to help your brand act more like a nonprofit, have more purpose, have more mission, like why would somebody buy a pair of your shoes? I get the function of the shoes. But But But why? What's the story behind it? How are you taking that business and investing in communities or anything, right. And then on the nonprofit side, we try to push them to think more like a business because oftentimes, they've landed that, and they we know where our heart is, and what matters to us. But we don't know how to be financially stable, right, we don't know how to have, you know, monthly recurring revenue. And so that's the crossroad for us is to kind of bring the corporate side over to being more built on heart and on purpose and mission. And then for nonprofits to think more like a business, right. And so a lot of what we do kind of lands in that space, right. And for nonprofits, it is recognizing that you are still a business, right. And the terminology we use a lot is a product list sell, right? This idea that you are still selling a story. But a story is not solving a problem. It is not making my shoes more comfortable when I run or solving a problem in my home. But it's a heart problem, right? It's something that we all crave purpose, and we all crave vision, and you know where our life is going to go and the legacy we lead. And so you have to invite people into that and sell that product that in being a part of this, like this is how you're going to feel. And I think larger brands, they have a lot of money so they can do this well. And I think that's where you can look to the the apples of the world. And the Coca Cola is of the world because they have endless budgets, and they've done it really, really well. And you can glean ideas from that, but they do a really good job of telling a story and inviting you into something and a lot of the consumer products, they're not necessarily solving a problem either, right? Like you don't write a Diet Coke, but all of a sudden, that like it's gonna make my day joy for it's just gonna be that little blip of like, guilty pleasure, whatever, it ends up being right, there is a story there. And then you have to really get technical with that too. Right? Who is the audience you're talking to? What problem do they have that you're maybe jumping in and helping solve? And then how do you communicate that? And then how do you track what you're doing? We'll probably spend some time unpacking some details around all that. But the big, the big players have the ability to put all those pieces together. And it's pretty tactical and pretty scientific, you just kind of got to be willing to think of yourself as moving customers, donors volunteers, through an engagement funnel. And I know it's not the most attractive thing that you want to picture these people going through a funnel and you're selling them something but your financial success in the end will be a bigger mission. A bigger, you know, if you follow Dan pelota you're making a bigger pie, you're making a bigger chunk of investment. And that's where you have to kind of put that business coat on and recognize that that's what it's going to take to
to grow your mission. Yeah, I mean, we're here for all of This and I just think it's threaded through a lot of the conversations that we've had on the podcast. But one thing that keeps coming up, and I hear it in your story because of how y'all have prioritized even your work and just like documentary films, like how you can zoom out and be like, the mission is also trying to change narratives and how people think about your issue that you're fighting for to. And I think long form content content just in general allows us to do that in this day and age that it's never just about the money raised. It's also about the minds that are changed, which is hard to put a KPI around. But I want to give space to talk about this, because I think this is a core strategy. It's just nonprofits think about how are they viewing? How could they view themselves as kind of this media hub that connects to the mission work that they're doing? Yeah,
such an evolving space too. And you can look, even over the last few years, how much the social platforms and the places you can put content have evolved and changed. I know a few years ago, it blew me away that YouTube was like the second largest search engine. Fact check me on that if it matters to anybody. But I, I do too, maybe we'll put it in the notes somewhere if that's actually true or not, or we can erase it. But this idea that like what used to be people seeking information has changed so much. So even formats like this, and independent media, where where content can come out without these bigger systems is a big change in how people consume. And I think organizations and nonprofits need to get into that same space, right. So where trust is maybe waned, and that and that's included consumer trust, as is also part of the nonprofit story, right? There have been enough scandals in the nonprofit world to where you have to fight for people's trust. And now you have to be more and more authentic and how you do that. And we have gotten to a place where video and content is the way that you continue to reach people and show Hey, here we are behind the scenes, building our mission, here we are going on the ground right? Here are photos of the work being done. So critical that you do that. And it's not through big documentaries anymore, right? If we we talked a little bit about Invisible Children. That was early 2000s. Oh, my gosh, it's been forever Kony 2012.
I still remember it. I'm telling you, it had such a profound impact on me. Yeah. And
that's still my mindset goes back to that so often is you just need to tell this whole thing. But the but but this, the demand for that content is much different. Now it's much more bite sized. And you have it in these little bits and pieces, right? So it's important that you get a big idea of here's the whole story we're telling. And then you're breaking it down into little pieces. And you're finding ways to grab new audiences with a little bit over here and then bring them into the funnel with this is our vision and our mission. And then here's proof of what we're doing and meet this little individual over here who got supported or helped a little individual, I'm assuming in my head this morning with kids. That's a little strange. But yeah, you got to find all those throughputs and really help people along that story. And yeah, I think the big shift that we have felt as an agency is breaking that down into shorter and shorter, bite sized pieces, and then finding users and donors where they are. And whether that's social platforms, or, you know, as much as people don't love advertising, like it's kind of becoming a pay to play if you notice your contents, not even getting in front of your own audience if you're not putting money behind it. And so you got to make these little bite sized pieces that are right for your audience, you got to know what your audience wants, and then kind of nurture them through. It's, it's different for everybody, right? There's no silver bullets.
Thank you for just talking about what is the temperature right now with how we can plug in because I don't want the nonprofit right now to feel entirely overwhelmed. Because I want to tell you, you already have this, you have this content already. And you also need to create it and make space because we are really big proponents of syndication. Perhaps if you have that impact report, it's incredibly long, you've been working on it for three months, you mail it, or you email it one time, one and done. What a mistake. Take pockets and chunks of that. Make little videos, make a graphic, do a post. I mean, there's so much that can be done with what you already have. So know that you already have resources in there. But I do think your point is extremely well made about does it even matter if you create wonderful content if you can't get it in front of the people who need to see it. So really want to emphasize Google Grants and ads and putting marketing dollars aside to make sure that all that time that you spent working on that story that profile that impact that it's going to get to the right people.
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So I want to talk to you a little bit just about, like how someone could build an effective digital marketing strategy, you've kind of laid the landscape of the opportunities that exist, talk to us about how nonprofits can create an effective digital marketing strategy in terms of what are some of the do's and don'ts? And we'd love to also know, what did you learn throughout your career?
Yeah, I'm we touched a little bit on this idea of of a customer profile. I think it's really critical that organizations know who their donors are. How do you resonate? How does your story resonate with them? What are there needs again, and there's a lot of ways to break that down, right? You can do demographic profiling, or psychographic profiling. But in essence, to keep it simple, just try to know who they are, and what they want to hear from you. Because again, this is all about focus. And I think, on the other side of the equation, kind of bookending this, knowing who they are, and knowing what you want out of them and what your goals are, are critical. I'm really stuck on finding the right goals over the last few years. I think that's a space where a lot of organizations just come to us and say, we just want we want more people to come to the site, we want more donors want more volunteers, or, you know, we want people to check out this content that we have, and we kind of dig in and why is a big question that we like to ask in the wall? Like why that why that Let's back out of it a bit? Or how much it's quantify that right? And even just to align on expectations, it's quite for somebody to jump in and say, oh, let's get to a million dollars. Why a million? How do we find a million is that even realistic, and a really pressure test something that you can put on the wall and agree to as a goal, right? Even if you don't have benchmarks, yet, let's put something there tested a little bit, see how much it takes to really start to engage people, and then start to say, let's make incremental improvements on that. Right. So I think knowing your audience, and knowing some goals that you can put on the wall and hang your hat on and test on is really critical. And then kind of inside of there. It's the strategy pieces, right? So the typical process the agency goes through is setting up a kind of a marketing strategy. Who are we talking to? What are we trying to accomplish? A lot of the bits and pieces we've already been talking about? Where are we? What channels? Are we going to be on? What What role does each channel play in that idea of bringing them in? How are we going to nurture them? Typically, these days, you're not looking at a one and done right? We're not just going to put up social media, and they're going to become donors, you have to kind of move them through. So what's your top of funnel idea? What's your mid funnel concept? And then how are we really going to like hook them and get them to convert? So kind of putting that in place? It's kind of kind of like a pyramid. So once you have the marketing strategy, you move into content strategy, once you know what to say, how are you going to say a different in each place. So that becomes your channel strategy? Are you going to do PR, and to your point earlier, where are people coming from? Right, if you don't have a huge email list or social following, you better be partnering with people with big following, or doing some PR or putting some money behind it. But make sure you get it in front of enough people. And then the big one is is is tracking the data and being able to pivot, right, the minute it's up, you're gonna see, hey, people from coming coming from over here, either cost this much or take this much effort to get into the newsletter, but they're opening them or they're not opening them. And spending some time and even tools like Google Analytics will give you a lot of that data. I know there are a lot of tools out there that can get more and more technical. But just being able to track that is critical. So come up with an idea that's going to speak to your audience put a specific goal in place, get it live and tested and tested and tested and tested and make little tweaks and stuff. And like you said it feels big and daunting. But with those kind of core components. I think any organization can just can start right can can try it, whether it's small or large and get going. Yeah,
I mean, I love that you broke that down for us. Because I think it's really easy to look across at a different organization that looks to be having a lot of success, especially in social media campaigns where all the vanity metrics may be happening. But you have to understand like the iceberg beneath it, like what is actually matters, and what's driving some of that strategy. And you've given such a good playbook there. And one thing I would add and we do this like internally on our teams only as of recent, because we move so fast on things, like creating space before the campaign is over to like, come back and like talk about what worked and like look at your data and mirror that to what the experiences were the you know, nonverbal or other feedback that you got and all the places because next time around, you can just make it better. And I think you've kind of iterated that it's like just start and then each time you can get a little bit more complex and a little better as you thread all the feedback So loving kind of this conversation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, two parts of that. So I think I shot past the idea too earlier and why we built donate leads, because the technology has to be there to track this information. And again, if you're making good goals, they're going to be things around like, either new donors or dollars raised or number of volunteers that you're engaging with, or the number of opportunities to volunteer people have signed up for right. And that takes a certain degree of technology and what we would call it the technology stack things kind of talking to each other, communicating back and forth. So I wanted to at least mention that that was a key part of this, too, is that you can get that data. And then once you have it, it's you don't have to wait till the end. Right. To your point. If you waited till the end, if you ran something for three months, and you didn't make any pivots during that campaign, you may have missed a great opportunity, right? I mean, I can think of a lot of campaigns we've launched where two or three weeks in, we're already looking at a couple landing pages and going this one with that particular video converts three times more than this one over here. Like why, like, get it out, right. And as a designer, your heart probably hurts in this space to go the way I want it all to live on forever, right? I love them all. They're so beautiful. But like data kind of crushes that. And I think one of the hardest things as a creative is to throw stuff away. But really quickly, you can go look, everybody loves that ad, move all your page dip behind it, or you know, that landing page is converting better. There's a lot of I don't want to oversimplify that there's a lot of things you have to do to get to a conclusion when it comes to an AP test. But the idea of looking at data in real time, because it's not impossible to have that that you can make those pivots and quickly make something that maybe is not cashflow positive, a cash flow return on investment type of campaign, because you paid attention to those little things in you you moved, you know, inhibited on what was being done. I mean,
to have like open hand and that is so powerful, but knowing really clear what your goal is. So I wonder if you have a case study or organization you worked with that models this really well that you would walk us through?
Yeah, yeah. So this past year, we worked with a organization called cure bound. They are pretty new. They they originated from an event that happens here in San Diego called the Padres pedal, the cause it's a cancer based run walk bike event that came out of a movement around the Padres and a handful of other major league baseball teams doing kind of cancer based events. And we started working with them. Last year, it's the first time they're doing the event again after COVID. And we're going to do it in person again at Petco Park. Really great event. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so good is just to kind of see that all coming back. And one of the most engaged communities I've seen in terms of just content and just loving the mission. And so it's a great, it's great when you can start with that ton of engaged people. But also they wanted to go beyond the event and launch a brand that had a big mission of finding cures for cancer in our lifetime. So it wasn't going to be just an event raising money. It's now its own foundation and worked with all the great organizations here in San Diego. Were a huge hub for for cancer research and mapping DNA and all this stuff. So what I think they did really well is they spent time building a brand. Both right the Padres pedal brand as well as putting time into we're going to create this whole new thing. And we need to invite people along into that journey. And it's not going to be for everybody, right? So we recognize the audiences, we recognize people are just going to want to participate in an event. Maybe they know somebody who has cancer, and they just want to want to stay in that world. And then there's people who really want to dive in to the research and what's happening in cancer research and what's happening with immunotherapies and all these things. And so their ability to invest in a brand and invest in a story that really had a beautiful, unique value proposition, a unique tagline. I mean, just the idea of finding cures for cancer in our lifetime is such a beautiful thing to stand behind. And then to be able to dive deeper and deeper and recognize the professionals, the people that have on board, the backing, the Salk Institute, and all the different people that are going to stand behind and do these clinical trials and all this research, and then be able to kind of build different strategies, right, so we had to go after and get them to come and participate and fundraise again. And so we had ad campaigns running, that were really, really successful just in bringing in new participants, and then separating off which ones of those might also be interested in donating and running some some fundraising efforts towards donors versus event participants. It was great. It was, you know, raised I think, around $3.2 million. Amazing the return on adspend for this one where we could just focus in on something that made sense to run ads around which was to participate in this event to target past participants and target people who would look like them and be potential participants and drive them to fundraise and then join the event created a huge return on adspend. I get about four and a 50% return on adspend. That's when it's done right and again, there's so many pieces to that equation. I don't want to just throw those numbers out there and make that an expectation. But it was a group has been investing a lot in making a really engaging event year after year. And then taking an opportunity to bring people back together and launch a new brand. And that one was, was amazing. Yeah,
not only was it a good one, it was literally the best one. And I want to thank you for it. Because you have just proven what we say many, many times on this podcast, that an event is not just an event, it doesn't just have to be an event, you made the event, a movement. And it doesn't just have to be the day that somebody shows up. We talk about this a lot with our impact arc framework, the way that we're teeing people up the way that we're warming them and getting the excitement going and telling that story before needs to have a long runway, the day of the event. Yes, lots of excitement got to capture a lot of that energy. But what are we doing afterward? How do we take the event to be more than an event, and you've just shown that marketing is the lifeline to make that event, something bigger than a one day event? So thank you so much for that. And I just think that's another powerful story that's in our sector, it's in the world. And we need more of them. And I didn't mean to tee myself up. But I did. We love story, so much on this podcast, and we want to talk to you about with your purpose driven heart, knowing that you care so deeply, and that you fuse this incredible talent that you've had with creativity. What is the moment of philanthropy, your generosity that has stayed with you that you've been a part of, could be as an adult child? What's when you could share with our community?
Yeah, I mean, my heart goes back to everything that Invisible Children did, just for me personally, because it changed my trajectory on what I was going to do with my life. And I was able to see firsthand how you can have purpose and in a heart in a career, right. And so I go back to that, because even when I think through to other life giving individuals and things that I've seen, it almost all stems from that right. Another one that comes to mind is a documentary that was made called Blood Brother, which was somebody that we knew from the the Invisible Children era that had just had a similar like calling on the heart to just go to India and live in an orphanage and see how HIV and AIDS is impacting a country and like how little is being done, how little can be done. I think anytime people are giving of themselves, I think those are the ones that inspire me, the people who like just drop everything and go to other parts of the world, to just invest in what's being done and what can be done globally with, with little concern over their personalized with their, their future careers, right. Like there's a space where our, my heart is in a little bit of a different spot, right? I kind of have different goalposts for myself, and I'll get to that in a second. But that's what I think I think of things like that I think of the risks that not just the founders of Invisible Children, but almost everybody they're traveling, they're consistently roadies, that would be on the road living in vans, just peddling this film at schools, people who went to Africa, people who died, unfortunately, in Africa, working for them, and just just believing in that mission. I just I can't help but like, take my hat off to those people who are pouring everything that they are into that. And then I think the next level down is where I feel like I am at where there's, you know, I have to do one more little reference, because tease this up well. I enjoy rock climbing a bit. I'm very novice, but there's a documentary called The Dawn Wall. And it's all about Yosemite and climbing and the evolution right every, you know, generation of climbers did it better and better and better. And there's a point where people were just starting to drill holes in the rocks and hang their ropes. And it just, it wasn't authentic. And the guys from the prior generation would go in, they take the screws and the bolts off of the hill, and they said, or the wall and they would quo was that it doesn't matter that you get to the top. It's how you get there. Right. And I think that has been kind of something I constantly remind myself as I as I get agency envy, or product envy was like, Oh man, if only we could do that. But we just would have to take on these clients and the like, it's not getting to the top. It's how you get there. And I believe wholeheartedly that you can build a life for yourself and for our children, like we talked about in the right way. And that's investing in companies and in the stories that are making the world better. We don't have to take that. That That greedy angle or this idea that we have to set our hearts and our beliefs and our missions aside. We can absolutely weave those into the work we're doing. I think I derailed a little bit on that one. But I still
creep it all started this conversation and just go You mean you started this conversation talking about belief and I'm like hearing the story of the Invisible Children team and the beneficiaries like of that work like what a tangible expression of this you You know, and also your second piece, it's like marketing can be for good. Like if we bake it that way, you know. And that's why this ethical piece, we need more people with that are wired like that to pour into marketing, because we can start really solving for some of these bigger things while we're doing the work at the same time. So I am sad to ask this question, because I've just really enjoyed this conversation and hearing your insights, all of these things, but we ask all of our guests to share one good thing, and it could be a secret to success, a habit that you embrace, or just a piece of advice you want to leave with our community today.
Yeah, I mean, I think maybe I got ahead of myself with that last one. Because that's it. I mean, I think when I when I talk to people that are inspired by, by donate, we are inspired by 50, I think the thing that always resonates the most is to seek out a career journey that has social impact and belief built into it, you're gonna go further, you're gonna enjoy it longer. There's not a day that I don't enjoy what I do, there are hard days. But I think when you have belief, and you're excited to sit down with the kids, and tell them what you worked on, like, that's everything. So I think just recognizing anybody, no matter where they are, can build belief and purpose into what they do. That's something I wish everybody would believe, I think we can get to a place where every decision we make has a social impact option. And we can all be good conscious citizens and making those decisions for our families and for our kids and for ourselves. And so I just want to keep carving forward and building that world where every choice we make, there's a good, a good one for people a good one for the planet, and one that people can believe in, you know,
there's nothing more gratifying to us than when people reflect our values back to us. I don't even think you knew that our core value number four is it's about belief. You know, it's not about giving. It's about believing that generosity is bigger than all of us that all of us have a role to play and how we shape the world around us. And whether if you can find that in your work, oh, my gosh, I mean, I could we're living proof all of us, of seeing the power of how that transforms people. So thank you for what you're doing to pour into that we are definitely your allies in that movement. So Javon, tell people how they can connect with you. Where are you online? Give us all the directions to 50 and 50. We want to know about donate li so give us all the links. Yeah, absolutely.
Try to stay off of my phone and computer as much as possible. So it's hard. Now Bye 50 and fifty.org and donate lead.com. The social profiles will be in the footers for both of those, as well as kind of email signups where we're putting in all the tips and tricks and things that we can share with people who follow us. So I'll keep it traditional go there, maybe LinkedIn, kind of follow anything personally, but I love to share what we're doing with whoever's interested. Well, it
just radiates from you. And this conversation has been so generous and just how you've shared your wisdom and experience. So glad to know you in this life and appreciate you being on the show today.
Thank you so much. You're amazing.
Thank you both the podcast is great. Thank you too.
Hey, friends. Thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free. And you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom
