The AR Show: Kai Ströder (tooz) on Making Smarter Glasses with Novel Optics

6:27PM Apr 25, 2022

Speakers:

Jason McDowall

Kai Ströder

Keywords:

optics

waveguide

technology

optical

glasses

lens

big

display

carl zeiss

topic

people

approach

prescription

cases

customer

design

integrate

market

frame

area

Welcome to the AR show where I dive deep into augmented reality with a focus on the technology, the use cases and the people behind them. I'm your host Jason McDowall. Today's conversation is with Kai Ströder, Kai is the co founder and CEO of tooz, a company on a mission to develop cost effective smart glasses for consumers. Early in his career, Kai was a research fellow at the University of Stuttgart, where he also earned a PhD in strategic management. Over the next decade, he worked across various groups at Carl Zeiss, the world's leading high end optics company. Among other projects, Kai has been responsible for activities in the field of augmented reality and data glasses. In 2018, he transferred the Carl Zeiss smart optics group, founded in 2015, to the joint venture tooz technologies initiated together with Deutsche Telekom. The tooz team based in Germany develops technologies and production processes for complete Smart Glass solutions geared towards the end consumer market. In this conversation, Kai shares the origin story for tools within Carl Zeiss in one key attribute of their approach that sets him apart from many competitors.

If we work on an optical engine, we don't have golden samples. That is one of the killer question in every negotiation.

What is a golden sample?

I don't know what they're talking about. You have just samples. And if we have a stable process, we have got either 1000 Golden samples or samples which are crap. So you can decide. So either you have got a good process and a stable process in a scalable manufacturing process or not. And I'm really happy that we have got this kind of shareholders because they pushed us right from the beginning to focus on mass manufacturability. And not on dog and pony shows.

We go on to discuss some of the trade offs between the fact of waveguides birdbath optics and chooses curved wave guides. Kai described some innovative aspects of the design their target use cases, and a very thoughtful go to market plan that focuses on the size of the glasses, affordability, and the ease of purchasing them from your optometrist. As reminder, you can find the show notes for this and other episodes at our website, the AR show.com. Let's dive in.

Kai the tooz optics design is very unique in the industry. What was the moment of truth when initially developing the design?

Yeah, I remember one certain moment. So we you really started with a long discussion before we kicked off the project to try to manufacture the curved waveguide with a funnel optics. And it was a bold decision. So we had one shot, I would say then we asked for a budget, they increased the budget a little bit because they told us okay, you have one shot. But we don't want to listen to your excuses afterwards. So you get an adequate amount of money, you get 18 months of time. And then we want to see the results. If it is manufacturable. That was the core question around this design. So we got a dedicated team, we started the project it was everything was very confidential, we were hidden in a secret place in the middle of a big factory. And after one and a half year, we were as always running a little bit late, the team was under high pressure. But finally, with a with a small delay, we had the first I would say reasonable good parts out of the tool, which showed the proof of concept that it worked. And I wrote a small email to the CEO of Carbonite, because we were reporting to the CEO directly and told him, Okay, we have parts it works, if you want to see it. And then he answered quite quickly and said, Okay, come over, I want to see it. So I grabbed the parts of the display to his office to the CEO office and made a small presentation. And the guy is a physicist by training. So he isn't the topic, and it does not help you to explain him. The reasons why it's good or bad, it's best to show him the hardware. And so he grabbed the hardware, looked into the optical engine and said, Oh, it's a little bit surprising that it works. But good job well done. And he put the optical engine away and looked me straight in the eye and said, So Kai, what's the plan? What are we doing next? So what is your idea for the business? And I was standing there completely exhausted after one and a half years hard work, and I couldn't really give him a good answer. And then yeah, he was laughing. I said, Okay, relax, go back to the team celebrate. And then we talk but very soon, I want to have no plan how we continue. And that was maybe an inflection point for the first project now. Company, I would say.

So this was started inside of Carl Zeiss as a secret project that you had an opportunity to prove that it could or wouldn't work, but you came out on top. What was the rationale then to take the work that you had done and spin it out as a separate company?

Maybe not everybody knows who's listening that size has a big entity taking care of our prescription lens. So they're selling 100 million units a year roughly more than Building are really more than a billion revenue every year. And there was there was a discussion if we, if we try to integrate it into this entity and like there's always the the opportunity to have some kind of metrics project and so on. But we discussed it with a board and realized quite early that you really need speed in this process. And you need a clear vision and a shared vision by a dedicated team. And not to convince people that and fight for resources. So again, we had to make this plan after this famous meeting. And we there was one proposal that we said, Okay, we need a completely independent legal entity. Again, we make a plan, we get a we get milestones, we ask for internal money from the Carl Zeiss venture fund. And then afterwards, we can decide if it is successful if there is a market demand, if we integrated into Carl Zeiss or if we have strategic partnerships, because that's also a critical topic. The optical engine alone makes no product you need partners in terms of displays, special coatings, materials, and so on. And this was really new. So this optical endurance, this product is really a product innovation, it is not something which disrupt a existing business within the group or, which is a product differentiation, it is a completely new innovation of a product. And therefore we decided to make it independent with full speed, with the clear guidance from the venture board with clear milestones, short iterations, clear decision points. And yeah, to keep the pace with the big players who spent, I would say more money on this kind of technologies than we do. And therefore we have to find a different approach.

And as you spun this out to increase the likelihood of success for this undertaking, that it needed to be completely independent with well defined milestones its own independent funding. How did you go out and find additional key kind of strategic partners at the outset? And why were they the right partner?

I think you're talking about also Deutsche Telekom, which is now a partner since 2018. Again, the optical engineers fine. And at the beginning, we made a lot of demonstrations, product demonstrations, and we learned and listened quite well to all the potential big players that were that they all were also struggling. And there was also an always the big discussion about field of view, how big must must be the field of you, which kind of use cases will work? How will the consumer or the customer experience look like? And to give really good answers, we decided that we also have to take care about the full solution, not only a part which we can provide and contribute to a good solution, but that we also understand everything which which is really shaping this new product segment. And therefore we decided that we need a strategic partner who has got some complementary capabilities and insights. And it's not fighting against us or it's not gaining access to our IP and protect technology, but really also wants to explore this technology field from a different angle than Deutsche Telekom. understood from the beginning that data integration in this class is a key topic. But there's still also a let's say, bottleneck in terms of the hardware. So to provide classes with data you need either a cable or wireless connectivity. And the LTE 5g topic is one of the core topics maybe not for today, but for them for the future. And they wanted to learn with us which use cases really work, what do you need for which use case in terms of data in terms of latency and so on. So we saw we started together this new company, which was then renamed so we started as Carl Zeiss smart optics. And then we had the new name from 2018 When telecom stepped in, it was to technology with the two letters, I think it's quite clear that telecom advice was involved. And this was really valuable steps and we had a different angle, as mentioned from other perspectives, not only optical engines, but the full solution in mind.

It's wonderful. Maybe we can take a bit of a step back further in time and talking about Carl Zeiss and why this product originated inside of Carl Zeiss. So that company as you noted, it's been around a long time, major player in normal prescription sort of optics. Maybe in describe a bit how that evolution of Carl Zeiss and why they're known in the industry. And from there we can kind of understand why this sort of solution for AR glasses originated was born inside of Carl Zeiss.

So Carl Zeiss has a long history and they started with microscopes and now they are really dominating some segments. I think the semiconductors the most impressive phones are they they are dominating the UV ultra violet technologies for Nano chipset so more or less all the small chips that the In the world are made with Carl Zeiss optical engines. So this technology switch from a normal wave of manufacturing to the UV technology was a huge huge step. And they have gotten also the optics lenses for prescription market they have got the microscopes and different variations they have metrology Medical Department is taking care of for a doctor's and eye treatments. And I mean, they are leader in optics, and why should they wait and give this field away? Understanding so much about optics shaping so big markets like semiconductor and was just the logical step. And the beginning when I stepped in, there was a big question. Within called eyes, what are we already doing in this area, because there are so many different departments corporate structures, there are different business groups, different entities with different capabilities. And there was a big need to consolidate all these activities and then make one bet and don't work against each other or cannibalize the different project resources, but really work on one dedicated approach. And this was this curve waveguide approach, because we had a lot already, and that was not only in terms of technology, but we also control it in terms of IP, which is maybe also an interesting topic for our discussion.

This notion that Carl Zeiss, because there's such a deep expertise in a wide variety of optical problem sets, that it would make sense that Carl Zeiss would have a team or a set of teams that could come together and address the challenges of augmented reality. But maybe we can just kind of take a step back and describe what's hard about optics for see through AR.

So first, you have to make a decision what you really want to achieve. And that is also a hard decision. So at the beginning, we really had to make the decision to we also focus on big field of view on use cases for b2b. And also share that dream that big field of view. Also, eye tracking sensor technology, and everything can be integrated in a normal form factor in a reasonable timeframe, or what it takes to provide, let's say, a 40 5060 degrees field of view into a normal looking glasses, including prescription. And there was a long discussion back and forth. And we said okay, finally, we believe also from the experience of the lens department selling the prescription lenses, first of all, people buy glasses, because they have the need the correction need or they have got a protection need, which means either they have a correction need that they see clearly into the world or they have UV protection need or in b2b areas that they protect also from from dirt or dust or whatever, or there's just a regulatory requirement that they have to wear glasses. And is it now realistic to upgrade these glasses for all their use either in a workplace or in a consumer environment with a big few of you. And so we understand that in semiconductor there is Moore's law, but not in optics. And therefore, we decided, okay, it will not happen very soon that you have got 40 5060 decree. And if you want to provide for the 5060, decree on top with a prescription, it gets even harder. And if you integrate all the sensors, you have a bulky device, heavy device on the nose, and all the tests clearly said you have to go clearly around 60 7080 grams, and then you have to see what what you can what you can make happen with the optical systems which are available, theoretically, and they are just a few. So it's not. It's not that we said okay, that is somewhere the Holy Grail. And we have just to find it. So we said okay, there's a limited portfolio of technologies, which potentially can make it happen, what is realistic, and we said, Okay, we focused on the most realistic approach to make all day classes with a reasonable form factor possible, which can be manufactured in a scalable manufacturing process, adding prescription and reaching a price point, a reasonable price point is also a topic. And then we ended up with this technology where we control also the IP and that's the curved waveguide technology. And as far as I understand that the industry right now there is not really something which is comparable to this approach and different dimensions. And we don't say that bigger feeders of us or headsets like existing devices from Microsoft, they are great devices. They are incredibly engineered and that is really leading edge technology but it's a different approach. It's a different setup, they have got a bigger device and they integrate all the functionalities and they now try to shrink it and we said okay, we have got this normal looking form factor classes and we try to put everything what is possible and maybe this gross, so it's just a different approach. But the curve prescription normal for On factor, affordable, these are the cornerstones where we started

those restaurants. And so really, you're taking it from the perspective of wearability like it has to work in functionally normal glasses, first and foremost. And then we're going to build up from there, as opposed to we have to cram all this functionality in, we're going to try to miniaturize it from there, which is the opposite perspective. Exactly. When we look at across the board at the various attempts to solve similar high level sort of purposes within the optics, which is to get the light from the display into our eyes, while still allowing us to see the real world. The two main approaches that are out there are diffractive, waveguides, and birdbath optics. And can you describe from the kind of the perspective of the things that you are creating, which is curved in all day wearable and manufacturable at scale and the things that you're imbuing within the TOS optics? Can you describe some of the shortcomings perhaps that diffractive waveguides have or birdbath optics have related to your objectives?

At the end, it's always a question, what do you what do you want to achieve so there are great diffractive wave guides for big field of use, they have got an excellent image quality, and so on and so forth. But if you want to have quite a small form factor, including prescription it's getting hard, if you want to use it outside you have got this, this Ico, we have got forward projection and so on. So this the right technology for all day classes with prescription highly scalable, attractive price point. I don't know we say different technologies better if you want to have got a bigger device for industrial applications for indoor applications, gaming, remote, desktop, whatever, then it is great. So it's depending on the use case, it's the same with a birdbath optics, we have seen really good and price aggressive devices now from I mean, we can name it from competitors from Asia from Enrile. It's a incredible good approach to have got a reasonable simple birdbath optics, with a cable with a mobile phone, that you don't have even more weight on the nose, because it is reasonable heavy, the sweet spot is not really perfect for glasses, and we have a lot of load on the nose, pet and so on. But at the end, it is a very good image quality tune aggressive price point and you can really open the market for gaming or television applications. But they are still not powerful enough that you have a clear optical engine, I think people would not like to run around in a city with such a device for going shopping. So again, depending on the use case, diffractive and also birdbaths have benefits. And we think for our use case and our target market or target group, our approach is better.

Can you describe in more detail what you imagined to be kind of the best use cases for toothpaste

glasses? Yeah, so first of all, the we really share the vision that you sooner or later go into into the optician store that people are vain. And first of all, select a good looking frame, and then upgrade this frame with an optical engine. And if they want to have got additional information during their all day lifestyle, they can choose the optical engineer from tos on top. That is the vision and the scenario. And we know that our waveguide is limited in terms of field of view. So everything around 2025 degrees will be a limit. But we also learned in the difficut program that for a lot of applications, which will explain 1518 20 degrees is good enough and big enough and the and the users do not ask for more. Which means the normal scenario is that a lot of alerts, instant messaging, navigation, all the usual suspects. So I think there's nothing revolutionary which we need in terms of use cases to really position an attractive device which really adds benefit and a great experience into the market because all the use cases. And also the software is already existing and running on mobile phones. So it is a adjacent device to a mobile phone and maybe sooner or later again, when data technology and also network technology and hardware will improve that you can also use it independently like like you can use watches today independent leads, it's a little bit the same like this. You can discuss if this really is the breakthrough for AR or not we think it is good enough. And we believe that it's what is possible in the next 510 years in terms of weight, form factor cost and so on as mentioned, and therefore we think there are a lot of use cases which add benefit which you today have to consume on your mobile phone, not hands free, not intuitive and which you today cannot really combine with this audio functionality. So the combination of audio interface video interface speaker Frank finalities Also the systems which are running in the background providing you all the services which you consume. Today we are audio can be upgraded with visual content. And there's a lot of interesting use cases, which really will add benefit and will be attractive. And that is, for me the use case that you have quite a hands free device. And you're not limited anymore to this just mobile phone.

So here really the breakthrough is in its wearability, its accessibility, that you're going to be able to go to your optician, as you're buying a new pair of glasses, you can say I want the I want the TOS upgrade. And now you have available to a pair of wearable displays that has audio integrated microphone integrated, that allows you to engage with the real world as a normal pair of glasses, but also gives you the digital information where it makes sense. And these are the sorts of use cases you're describing are utilitarian in nature and not immersive gaming. Sometimes people get overly infatuated with these conversations. But it's really about how do we add value to somebody's life and giving them the bit of extra information they need right now? Yes, exactly.

Easy to buy, easy to use easy content generation also for developers mixture of audio visual use cases that will be the near future of this kind of classes

in here. Are you able to ride on the coattails of Carl Zeiss and the way that the lenses are being distributed today, you can just kind of plug into that sort of sales channels that the idea?

Yeah, that's exactly the idea. So that right from the start, this was a critical topic that we understand the full value chain, how are classes made? How are classes sold? What are the processes in the background, I personally also team members have history in college, I was in charge for medical devices, which opticians eye care professionals ICPs use every day. And we had a deep understanding about the process. So you you buy your frame, you select the lens technology, you want to have you have some centering, which helps us by the way, for prescription lenses with centering iBooks is not critical anymore, because you have centering, and you can adjust the position of the iBooks. Since we have got a reasonable big iBooks for this scenario, and then you have got the full value chain and more or less the same customization process. So the rear part of our optical engine is made in a different process, which is injection molded today. Normal lenses, polycarbonate lenses, or plastic lenses are casted today, and then you have got the backside surfacing in regional labs, you can do the same with our waveguide, we do the waveguide, the waveguide is ready, we have got a pack, how just call in the industry. And then you can distribute it to the local or regional labs. And then they can treat the back side of the park with a waveguide with the identical equipment with the same machines with the same recipes like they do today. So we can sell it tomorrow in the existing value chain from manufacturing to the customer directly. That's pretty

amazing. So you basically build something a little bit larger than as necessary. I'm just trying to visualize this using injection molding techniques. And then you ship that as a blink or a puck as you call it to the same sort of value chain that deals with all other lenses. And then they shave it down, polish it up whatever they need to do to meet the specific prescription needs of a customer.

Yes, without any additional investment. So it is it is the same process.

How does that then get integrated with the display and the rest of electronics in the frame?

It's not so difficult in our case. So first we have to craft waveguide we have got in refractive uncoupling area, and we are agnostic to any kind of display. So today we have different versions here we have OLED we have micro LED displays and so either you glue it or you bring it in front of the incoming area with an air gap without an air gap. And the positioning is quite robust so it's not so sensitive so it's not like a laser scanner or something like this. It must be in position fine. But today we have got friends foldable frames where we have got a hinge integrated for the cabling which is critical topic sometimes we learned a lot with electronic hinges and switching off switching on glasses via the syringe and channeling through different cables. And in the hinge there is a display holder and you can place or integrate the display them the LED Elkins, OLED whatever you have, and then in the front part of the frame, you can open the frame swap in or exchange the lens put the lens in, it clicks in and then it is in a good position or the positioning is good enough to have the perfect image quality and then we close the front side of the frame and we have got the swappable lens. So in the also from the sales channels since we also considered maybe in some markets preferred sales channel will not be the traditional optician store maybe also online channels are interesting or electronic stores. The customer can still select the frame can have the centering or the the centering of the length with a mobile phone app, which is available today. Also virtual Tryon, it's also good enough, then we either ship the frame together with the lens or he grabs the frame. And we ship the lens afterwards. And the customer can also click in the prescription lens according to his needs by himself at home. And that's quite simple.

That's pretty amazing. That's really amazing. I love that you set yourself this very deep set of constraints around not only the characteristics of the lens itself, but also how it's going to get bought and utilized in creating a solution that is truly swappable, where you can upgrade I guess technically you could upgrade the frame separate from the lenses or the lenses separate from the frame depending on what makes sense in any given moment.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's the same. It's like this, I mean, also the front part, we're also working on this. So in the temple, the technology batteries in the temple. So you have got basically finally three elements, you have got the temples where the tech is hidden, integrated, however you name it, then you have the front part, which is more or less defining the style, and the appearance of the glasses, which is exchangeable. And then you can click in your customized lens. And that's a modular system, which is necessary, if you if you talk about scalability and price point, because it will be an aggressive business. And we don't want to lose money, we want to earn money, and therefore you need a really convincing solution finally, and not only just an optical engine and throw it somewhere and say and tell them, Okay, fill it somehow in and we don't care about the rest. That's not our approach. And therefore, we really had hard time with his eyes venture team challenging us also with the telecom, we also have the same discussion. Okay, how do the customer connect then with with a mobile phone? What is required? How do we ensure that it works with iOS, Android and other systems and so on? What are with what is what is the question? Can we have bundled deals when we sell it? I mean, you can also sell it in in the US with T Mobile shops in a bundle deal with a mobile phone, why not? And then we are maybe not linked to a specific mobile phone, maybe we are just linked to a specific T Mobile contract, which is enabling this technology then in tune in an attractive package. So we are an optics company. But we will always challenge that we understand the full picture. And that's finally I think the reason why we have the full trust from our board, and they are still pushing us because they all want to have it by themselves. That's maybe a good position that they are waiting there.

internally generated motivation. What sort of price by Do you think this will be sold to consumers? How much would I have to pay? Yeah, that's

always a good discussion about positioning. So we always have the question about price and cost. So from a cost perspective, we think it must be possible that you have got classes in the area for 99 599. If you have got premium classes, also higher, eight 899, maybe it's always the also depending on the market. So in Germany with a progressive lens, people pay just for normal progressive glasses, 1000 euros, which is a lot of money. In other markets, it's different. So we have to see what happens also regionally. But from the cost perspective, you must be ready. And with our technology. As mentioned, injection molding, it gets cheaper with every part you manufacture. With a sales channel. There are no additional sales channel costs besides marketing advertising. But I think we are quite prepared to provide a good solution also in terms of cost. And finally for the consumer price.

And are they going to be TOS branded glasses, coming from an optical expertise, this company, Carl Zeiss, that's, that's really the origin of the deep insight in the the innovation. But now you're talking about putting the whole thing together in a very comprehensive and complete offering beyond just the optics to incorporate a variety of potential different display engines. But not only that, you got your own hinge technology, which is part of this as well that you described, and the ability to put the necessary bits of additional electronics into the glasses themselves. So what is it ultimately the TOS is bringing to market? And is it gonna see twos on the side when I get to buy it.

So what we will sell and what will be visible will be the optical engine, and maybe the optical engine is branded, if it is branded as tools asides. It's also discussion, let's see what happens. It's also depending on the partner who wants to integrate it, they have different ideas, restrictions, corporate identities, which allowed or not allowed, let's see, however, we ensure that that the customer gets a Zeiss quality and Zeiss standard lens and optical engine. And that is the core of what we want to provide and the branding and that's these are commercial topics. But first of all, we want to solve the big rocks. And if there will be a good and convincing solution. Yeah, they will be also a solution for the marketing and branding.

You're really focused Then the optics. But what about the rest of the frame the rest of the technology? Is that something that you are going to leave up to a partner to define kind of the rest of those ingredients? Or is that something that you are promoting a specific reference design and trying to bring a specific set of ingredients in a particular embodiment market.

So right now we do both, because we see that, obviously, with big companies where we are talking to and negotiating and have projects, it is sometimes difficult to get the specs finalized. And in the meantime, we do our own designs, according to our own ideas, and we have the funding. So there will be a tools, reference design classes, which is a blueprint, which is also maybe a white labeling glasses, which partners can buy, upgrade, change a little bit and make their own frame design or adjustments, and we do both. So they will be in June, I think its first days of June, at augmented world expo, we will launch the tools essence Berlin glasses, a full fledged reference design frame, different PDS charging box, everything including prescription, the full prescription range will be available. And that is a reference design, but we will not sell it by ourselves to the end consumer. We had the developer kit, that was a different story. Everybody could buy it online. But it was more for developers to and also for us to get feedback to learn to iterate fast. And in parallel, we provide this modular system, either optics, optics with display, which is the optical engine optics with let's maybe say electronics, or with the genius hinge we have made. So we are a provider of technology for the full solution. And we have got a good portfolio to serve a lot of different customers

going to this kind of this learning mindset that you have in the developing a complete system and making it available through your early partners. Can you share some of these kind of key insights, these key learnings that you are now you need to incorporate into this next iteration that we're all gonna get to see here at AWB? And a handful of weeks?

Yeah, so with a dev kit, I mean, that was really, really a journey. Also the discussions and projects, which we already did with the different players. So I mean, the core discussions always feel of you how big field have you and what do you need? So at the beginning, let's say two or three years ago, when we when we had this discussions, everybody wanted to have at least 20 degrees, can you not make it bigger or whatever. Now, two and a half years later, we have the experience from the dev kit, dev kit clearly showed us that all the developers and users said okay, 1518 If I cannot really compare it directly, I don't see a difference if the user interface and the graphics are made smart. So it's good enough, big enough to have got the 18. But the weight is critical. So every use case, and every customer who used the dev kit said okay, I want to have it lighter. So light or weight was key criteria, because when they wear it five or six hours on the nose, the difficut is quite good. But we really want to take another 5060 grams in average, different PTS have also plasticizers because unfortunately, for the waveguide it's good to have a big glasses or big lens for the weight, it's not so good. So we clearly want to tackle this hurdle that that people want to wear it the full day. So therefore you have also to adjust battery size weight. And I mean, the discussion Do you really need it in color or not in color, I mean, right now we have the micro LEDs, monochromatic which solves the issue of the brightness so it is itself now we have the the coating on the funnel, making the funnel really invisible. I thought today the latest version, if you don't know that there's a funnel inside you will not see it anymore. It's completely hidden just due to the fact that the image is so bright. And for a lot of use cases you don't need color, for sure we all want to have it. The other topic hinge all feedbacks clearly said we want to have foldable frames. So people are used to foldable frames sometimes they want just to store it if you cannot fold it just behind the waveguide or the lens it is a problem which also helped us now in the next generation that we have it even smaller than you fold it in this charging case it's really small. And the third economics, the positioning of the lens, the appearance it makes really a difference if the glasses are one and a half or two millimeters higher that they correlate with your eyebrows. That the ergonomics of the nose is understood in Asia you have got completely different noses compared to Europe or Western world. The head shape in Asia is different or the bending is a big topic the over bending. Again, I don't want to smash it but if you have got a laser scanner it's a different topic. If you over banded with our lens you can overspend it you can destroy the temple but nothing else will happen. The image quality will always be the same and So we invested a lot of detailed work in this over bending of the temple. And again, that is what I think is is one part which we can offer in a discussion with our customers will it will not generate a lot of turnover because you cannot protect this know how, but we our vision is that we enable now the market and open the market. And therefore, we provide this information and learn and want to evolve together that we really have got now, sooner or later good product in the market.

Yeah. You talked about battery, it's one of those elements that contributes to the overall weight of the system. And your effort is to minimize overall the weight because you want this to be an all day wearable sort of device. What is this device? Do you imagine it to be wirelessly connected to the smartphone? Or is it going to be wired to the smartphone? How important is that battery

was a wireless so the with a wire we don't see any options. So we don't want to have it I think customers don't want to have a wire so it's wireless. Right now we can enable for hours full fledged run time. And we are now at this tipping point. So before the micro LEDs, the display consumed most of the energy now we have got the speaker functionality and the microphone. And now they are consuming most of the energy. So we are coming from the approach integrating step by step technologies when it makes sense. And when it's possible due to the fact that we have now more power available for the speakers and microphones, we can integrate this one. And that is how it will work in the near future I would say. And I think again, the people don't like cables that don't want to look stupid when they wear glasses it is an upgrade normally of their personality, they want to feel comfortable, the person who looks at you wants to feel comfortable, they don't want to see any LED lights or something which is where they are not used to which does not mean that innovative frame designs are not possible. So we will also show the essence one concept very soon we will launch it in Asia. But this is a concept classes where we also want to show that sensor technology will increase. So if you look at your smartwatch, you have got heart rate you have got oxygen, I mean, you can easily integrate it in the classes in the temple, I mean, the temple is in an area behind the ear where the where the skin is very thin, where you easily can also have got heart rate, oxygen, all this biometric data and so on. And it will upgrade and grow. And then you have really an attractive package finally, and yeah, displays battery is one topic. But the solution always have a look at the solution what you really want to achieve.

Yeah, in here, this is one display one i monocular. Is that this intention? Yep. And so here, you really are setting the hard constraint around size. It's got to be small and lightweight manufacturable and all the other things you described. And just to kind of re emphasize this perspective, your brain is okay, given those hard constraints, how do we make it as useful as possible? And here this is now you figure out okay, can we add audio? Can we add this install maintain these other hard constraints we set for ourselves? Pretty awesome. How efficient is the optics system itself? Maybe we can kind of get into some of the the mechanics of how the light kind of flows through the system and in some of the the attributes of of the unique approach that you're ultimately taking. But one of the ones that comes to mind first is how efficient is it? You talked about micro led like the Jade bird displays, one of the attributes of this sort of system is that they can be driven very brightly. Is that a benefit ultimately to the the approach that you're taking?

Yeah, for sure. So it's not a secret, we have the the outcoupling structure, it's a funnel there the coding to out couple, and if you have got a big display, you need a lot of reflective coating to make it visible even or especially when the sun is shining. And you have got bright conditions with a very strong and adjustable display, we can reduce reflectivity of the funnel. In general, we have got a reflective waveguide. So the efficiency is high in general. So the dev kit had 20% roughly with the micro led we can sacrifice the visibility of the funnel by the coating and have still single digit and we can adjust it. So if we have got a really invisible for nil, which we have in the next generation, we have got single digit efficiency and sacrifice some of the light but it's it's not not comparable with a diffractive waveguide. They are by a magnitude higher than what they spent to have got a good image quality, even if they reach it in sunlight is a different topic. So we have clear glasses, it's not tinted. We can have tinted glasses that also may be unique. So we can add every coating on the outside and photochromic we can also have tinted coating on the outside. But you can also have got this crystal clear lens and with a reasonable efficiency. And the transmissivity is roughly 90% with a deaf kid but it's increasing also no I mean if there were if phonetic gets invisible, you also increase the transmission

It's spectacular. And so ultimately, how bright is it to the eye?

It depends how much you turn on the displays on my credit. So the 5000 is not a problem we have today we had the problem if you have not the perfect lens, and that's for the optical guys not a secret, you see all the artifacts. So then it's been an issue has not so bright displays, but 5000. Also 10,000 is not a problem now. Monochrome, right? That's, for sure. Monochrome is a topic.

And how does the problem change? When you talk about color? We don't have a problem. From the lens perspective, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, just a

little bit, I mean, from the volume from the uncoupling area, if you have gotten if you have to add an x cube and hide it somewhere in the Hsinchu, you add complexity, you add two more displays. But that's, that's it, everything else, we don't have to change. So if we have one, one wish for the industry, please provide this micro LED color displays. And then we all said,

that's fantastic. Maybe even break it down. What is a different URL structure? What's unique about that? And why does it work well, for an AR, sort of combined optic.

So as a funnel enables, first of all that use shrink the thickness of the waveguide. So you have basically it's a mirror with a reflective coating, and you cut the mirror in the parts which are just relevant for the optical system. So where you have got light which you want to reflect on the idea that it's about basic functionality of the funnel and and it's it's nothing we invented. So it's an old technology it was invented for the lighthouses because the lenses of the lighthouses were so heavy, or they could not even manufacture the lenses and the thickness. And they had construction problems. So therefore they invented this and they're just the same approach, we want to have got a thin lens and a curved lens. And we have got freeform surfaces, also a freeform funnel, which is quite challenging, but it enables us a curved lens, not only in one curvature. So we have got a sphere ik lens design with a friend null embedded, and that works quite well to have got this form factor you need and the prescription in Finland's health and isn't, yeah, that's, that's depending on on the lens. So if you have got just a non prescription lens with, let's say, a 15 degree field of view, we can reduce thickness to let's say, three millimeters It is then again a little bit depending on the base curve on the curvature, let's say three to four millimeters, depending what you want to have in terms of style. If you want to have spot classes or for special applications, then you need a strong curvature, then it makes a little bit different, difficult and thicker. If you have flatter, it's easier. However, if you add prescription in the middle, nothing really changes, we add just a little bit of material. But since we are coming from the back side and just surface it down in the middle, you add whatever Oh, point 5.6 It's, it's just you're not allowed to hit the waveguide or the front now, the outcoupling are everything is fine. And in the on the edges. Yeah, it is it is adding material according to your prescription requirements. So a minus six is still not a beautiful lens. But for those that

are already using minus six, they can already appreciate that they're getting thick lenses. So this one is not gonna be any different. Yeah, they are used to it. Yeah, given the sort of structure you're talking about. So you have this this in coupling area, it's reflective waveguide in the outcoupling is through the Fernell lens structure. And the benefit of the frontal lens structure is you can take what would normally be a larger lens chunk and break it up into smaller pieces and fit it into a thin waveguide a thin thin lens here in this case, what's the challenge on growing the field of view is that a limitation to the specific optical design I won't be the implications if you want to grow the field of view from wherever you have it now to 40 degrees or some larger number, what are the implications on the overall design constraints

the lens definitely get sicker I mean you have got total internal reflection you have to guide the light through through the lens into the or to the outcoupling area then you have got this footprint topic and so on so the funnel first of all gets big bigger, and the areas where you need light that you have to you have to bring more light through the channel to the outcoupling area to make it quite easy. And therefore it will add thickness and also complexity in terms of that you can manufacture homogeneous field of this funnel in our technology. Therefore if you if you really go or want to have it bigger than 2025 degrees, we would not take our curved funnel waveguide approach and also just to make it clear when we started a couple of years ago Zeiss had everything though they evaluated everything and for sure holographic displays and all this topic I mean that there is an entity taking care about holographic topics for car manufacturers for head up displays in cars and so on. So from a technology point of view, there was at the very beginning, not a limitation, it was again, what do you want to achieve? What is the vision? How do we want to approach the market, and therefore we decided for this technology, it was not that we didn't have the capability just to imagine, Zeiss is a powerhouse. I mean, we have everything available. Because we had tons of prototypes, we had more prototypes than we could evaluate. So that was not a problem. It was, first of all the question, what does make sense? And what is the good solution for a customer? And do we want to go, let's say for more b2b applications, or business applications or consumer applications? So do you end up with a big headset and you try to shrink it from a b2b, special niche application into a all day device for consumers? Or do we go the other way around? By the way, I still believe for a lot of No, that's that's also learning from the deaf kid for a lot of business applications, you don't need a big field of view. And by noccalula, it's just also a restriction. I mean, you just need binocular if you want to have 3d content. But then you need 3d content. Otherwise, it does not make sense to have a lot of good 3d applications, you have to invest a lot of money. And that was also learning learning, which we saw from VR glasses. I mean, there was a big hype about VR, and the AR glasses from the hardware are quite good. So you can be happy with a VR gaming device high end. So the image quality is quite good. But what is besides gaming a really good application, so we also came from the content side. So why invest in 3d by Nokia glasses with the best optical engine when you're finally stuck, because nobody is providing you content with a small nice glasses where you can adapt easily in a few hours or weeks existing applications, which everybody from us is using today on a mobile phone, the hurdles are quite low. That was the idea how to make a decision for the for the optical engine,

is you have been progressing through the iterations from this original design that you started across Zeiss. And now you're iterating here through all the feedback you're getting from your early dev kits, specifically within the lens, what are the things that you're looking to improve or add, one of the things you had already mentioned was making the funnel structure itself invisible? Is that a key part of it, what else you're trying to work on to make them better?

Image quality, you can always improve image quality that you have got the artifact better. And again, just to explain it. So if we work on an optical engine, we don't have golden samples. That is one of the killer question in every negotiation.

What is a golden sample,

I don't know what they're talking about, you have just samples and if we have a stable process, we have got either 1000 Golden samples or samples which are crap. So you can decide so either you have got a good process and a stable process in a scalable manufacturing process or not. And I'm really happy that we have got this kind of shareholders because they pushed us right from the beginning to focus on mass manufacturability and not on dog and pony shows where we show two golden samples may be produced in a completely different manufacturing process with high end coatings which you could not afford in the future or which are not stable or are not scratch resistant. So we had to fulfill all the requirements which are normal prescription lens from Carl Zeiss had in terms of coatings in terms of medical approval in terms of scalability in terms of yield. So in the in the meetings, we had Oh at some point, okay, what is the youth now what is what are the costs, and we have got big Excel sheets. And just to disclose it last year, the image quality you cannot really measure. So we have a board meeting at the end of the year for our bonus for our team motivation and so on to get feedback, and they look in the glasses and they want to see first of all the progress then they want to understand why the image is today like it is what they see and it is you can measure it but it is from a subjective perspective also huge difference. So sometimes you have a good MTF or a good measurement protocol. And then you showed somebody and you said okay, I don't really like the impression here or there I see something and you say okay, but the protocol is fine. And then our shareholders say I don't care about the protocol. Let's assume I'm a customer I want to have this kind of image quality. So then they want to have got an explanation why the image quality is as it is today. And then they want to see a plan how we improve it, why we improve it where we want to spend money where we want to buy machines and that is really an asset because we don't have got this this useless discussions about Yeah, make a golden sample and what is the perfect part they are running around in our manufacturing fab and they want to see every process that because they understand it and they then they tell us okay, we have this or that machine in a different area at the microscopes or the semi coat Dr. Vinod, this supplier if you need help here, the suppliers always late we can make pressure and so on. So they are really in the topic and understand we are in a good way, it will take now maybe one or two iterations until it's perfect. But they are standing at the injection molding machine and they want to grab a rare part out of the machine, look into it with a quick tester and say, guys, great job, we trust in you that it will be even better. So that is how we work here. And that is maybe different.

Again, going back to one of the the constraints you set for yourself, and how that ultimately drives the sort of product that you create. Setting yourself the constraint around wearability certainly informs a lot of what you're doing. But also setting this constraint around manufacturability informs the process and ultimately it might be a bit more of a harder sales process. In the meantime, as you're trying to demonstrate that what you're doing will be amazing. But when you get there, not only will look amazing, but it'll be truly an amazing business that can be built around it as well. So I applaud that tremendously. I don't know a lot about manufacturing optics. But one of the things that I am learning about injection molding is that there can be a bit of a long cycle time in terms of making iterations because the molding process can be its own special art form that can take sit, you know, certainly a fair amount of time. What does your iteration process look like? Does that something you can share?

Yeah, sure. And maybe one common to the inflection point, which we discussed at the beginning. So the core question was at the beginning, can you manufacture it in injection molding? Because internally, there were a lot of studies from really good people, and we didn't know it, if by reference will be a topic. So if there will be an image or if the tension in the injection molded classes due to temperature shrinking, and so on, will destroy the image. And this was this was the core question. And when we solve the birefringence topic, yeah, we were all set. And then we believe that we can make it happen today, it works like this, we haven't good idea or customer has a good idea how our lens should look like. And then we discuss what we can make in terms of tooling possible because injection molding is depending on the tooling. So we have genius optics, designers, and also comment we have got very young international team. So I think we have from people here from 18 nations, which is not common here in this area in the middle of Germany, because there's not a big city and infrastructure around. So we are quite proud of our young power 14. But we are also proud because we have a handful of genius retired people from Zeiss, which have altogether five and a half million years of experience and failures. And they are part of the team. And they are really pushing because they also believe in it. And that's always a good a good feedback if they still believe in us because they have seen everything. And these are more or less the optics designers who transfer the ideas into an optics design. And then they iterate too often, let's say 200 times until they have a optics which fits into a volume model. Normally it's the volume model at the say the frame is you're not allowed to go out of this area here because if you add at the frame one and a half million meter, the customer looks stupid or the frame looks stupid. So you have to be in this volume model, then the design this waveguide theoretically, and then the tooling experts step in and then they discuss what makes sense in terms of tooling or in terms of processing, because you have got shrinking you have perfect if you have got an homogeneous part, and so on then they also iterate. And at the end is always how much pressure you make and how much compromise you accept. And then they stopped the iteration on the optics design and the tooling. And then they transferred into a CAD model, which is finally defining the optical surfaces of the tool. And this is 100% done internally here. And when we start the tooling process where we mill the optical surfaces, all the freeform surfaces which are made in the injection molding process are milled here internally downstairs on it's a it's a big machine which is grounded on rock because it must be very, very stable because we have just a few microns which we have in tolerances and then they move for a long time because it moves very slow the milling machine and yeah, then we have got finally the tools and we put everything together bring it in the injection molding machine heated on foot, the plastic in wait a little bit and then we see if it was successful or not. And that is always a little bit the moment of truth. So we had to two weeks ago another tool and at the beginning it did not really look good. So there was then it's always a question, okay, it's a process not good or that they made somewhere a mistake in the calculations. And then you have to quickly iterate that you have got a good feeling that there is not a mistake, but it's just process process address. smell, and then you're right, then it's painful. And then we have two shifts in the lab and they are still working and they are iterating on the process, and that is always manufacturing a batch of parts, then we have measuring equipment a lot, a lot of high end, Zeiss measuring equipment. And then we have tactile measuring, we have got also optical measurement systems, and then they iterate back and forth, then we add the coatings, also fun part, the glues, either you have quite good optical performance, or you have a good clue. So the parts hold. That is always also topic. But I mean, there is a lot of experience. And that is the process, how it works. And I would say from the first idea to the first stable and good parts out of the tool in a acceptable yield, it is roughly eight to nine months, if it's a complex tool, and you have quite a lot of iterations with a customer, it's up to one year, but then it's stable. And then you can duplicate the tool, and then you have it,

then you can make a million at a time or however whatever the volume is at that point, exactly. You talked about this concept of birefringence if you don't mind go a little bit deeper into this one. So my super basic appreciation based on the words that you said injection molding, you're putting basically pumping hot plastic into a mold, that's going to interface with various the edges of of the mold. But as that plastic cools it change the shape, and the thermal stresses in that plastic during the heating and the cooling process could affect its optical characteristics. Yeah, exactly. And so the extra level of genius necessary is to be able to anticipate all of the different processes, chemical processes that basically happening in the plastic, as it's going through this injection in heating and cooling and interaction of the services and all the rest.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's the daily business here. So it's a little bit like, I'm a great fan of coffee and I was when I was younger and doing sports very often in Italy and it is the same with as good espresso. So you have got beans, you build them you have got then the middle pin to put them in the espresso machine you have got water you have different water, you have got different temperatures, you have got also steam, then you have got a cycle process time you have got different amount of beans in the filter. And here's a little bit the same. So it's at the beginning it is painful trial and error work and data mining. So, with every injection molding shot, we have a system and we capture roughly 16,000 measurement points and then we finally have got a laser scanner every part has got an own code. And then you have got this iteration bringing together the part which you measure where you have got objective data, when you finally look into it, where you see something maybe which is in the best scenario correlated to the measurement protocol. In a worst case, it does not correlate you have got either a better or worse picture and does not fit to the data. And then you have got the data from the injection molding machine. And then we adjust the processes. And today also in the morning, there was a meeting when the guy said okay, now we have got two processes, we have got an it was really a dot and an X on the optical engines. And we had them in the Quick tester and all the engineers, the full team was standing there we said okay, from a measurement point of view, they are similar. So everybody looked into it. And then it was clear that the x process part was by far better, but it's not really a reason or we did not understand the reason maybe also possible but they are so close now just a few degrees or faster, or just a few tons more, I don't know protons but or kilos more pressure than the opening time, then the tempering time, when you when you allow the classes to shrink, if you control the shrinking, then the temperature stability in the lab. So we have been it really very, very big and sometimes expensive air conditioning to have gotten a stable environment because the injection molding machine produce so much. But at the end, if you have it again, you have it, it's just then plug and play, you switch the machine on, you heat it up, you have stable conditions. And then surprise, surprise, it is really stable. That is really the good thing that so then it's stable.

It sounds like there's a little bit of trial and error that goes into this process a while or maybe there's a lot of trial and error and you kind of continue to to work your way into finding the exact perfect recipe.

Yeah, but it gets this with every iteration you also learn so much so that we are now kick starting it at the beginning. So at the beginning, I mean you will narrow it down very fast and then the fine tuning is a lot of work still but

everything is at the edge of of innovation. There's a lot of learning and iterating as you go. When is it that I could buy a pair of glasses that have these tubes, lenses tubes, optical engines in them?

Yep, So certificate was available, but really, in a shop with a prescription with a full process, we are convinced that next year 2023 end of next year, hopefully before the Christmas business, something will be available. Yeah, fantastic, either with tools branding somewhere or not. Let's see, let's see,

you've noted that ewe is going to be announcing a couple of or a new reference design that people can pick up in, in the utilize as a dev kit, is that right around that time,

it will not be available for free for everybody. So it is a reference design for big players or customers will really want to make their own version out of it. And therefore we will not provide it to end consumers directly.

But for the major players, they get to see your vision, and they get to be inspired by what you've created. And then they can purchase your dev kit and begin to work with you. With that in mind.

I'm quite sure I know it. Also, from the beginning. So the big players, there is a long relationship with all the big players more or less. So they have all at the beginning, they have all been called dice. And at this time, and they had this very good ideas how a product should look like. And we said, okay, it's not possible. And that was obviously the wrong answer, though, they wanted to hear that it is somehow possible. And maybe from a business point of view, it would have been good that we get some energy and finally tell them okay, it was not possible, but we have the energy project, but it does not help. So we know them from the early times when they have this lighthouse or North Star projects. And they all wonder that there was a big hype. And we always said it is not realistic, it will not happen, you cannot shrink it like this, it is physics. You can maybe shrink it here for some person or here. But it is not this what they have been searching for now, more or less, they are all back at the table, they understand that they are two different segments. And we are in this one segment. And most of them know this reference design in the details. Not really disclosed. But they all have own teams and own product divisions. And for them, maybe it's not a big surprise. But we want to go broader for niche markets, let's say for sports companies and so on, you can really differentiate it. And maybe they are also faster as compared to a big player. So why not have a sports classes next year? With a very focused use case? Let's see. Yeah,

I love it. So as you look out over the next 1218 months, you're talking about, maybe we're going to have these available in the store for a consumer to purchase by the end of next year, who or what in this industry causes you the most concern over that timeframe,

I hope that they are all now realistic, and that nobody or that that they not claim, again, that they have something which will not work. So we have good examples in the industry where the expectations were very high. And the results were not according to this hype before. And this does not help this does not help the individual company and not the industry. Now, this is sometimes a concern that you have got burned ground and frustrated consumers because aspect expectations have been so high. And finally the product is not what was claimed by somebody else, and that they always compare it. So that is something which is always a topic, but I see that they are again, they are all getting more realistic. And this hype videos are not so frequent anymore, so but this would not really help. And then I have the big hopes that we really accelerate now with a display technology with a micro led and color this would really help and make a breakthrough. And that overall the end consumer understand that in this let's say virtual reality is augmented reality is there are no different segments you have we are it is differentiating, you have got the big headset, and you have got other devices, you have also, let's say completely the old approach where you have got just to prison for service technicians, they also find and they also help that the industry accelerates. So that that is in Germany, we say leave without leaving last Live and Let Die, that they all focus on what they have, and that they are not claiming something to have which will not not be realistic, which destroys the atmosphere that we now celebrate. We are now in the hockey stick and we should really take some momentum now together.

Yeah, I feel like this is when one example where Marvel does not help this industry, Marvel in the way that they describe these like, you know, ultra amazingly thin pair of AR glasses with these ridiculously large field of view that connects to satellites and has all this, you know, sensor technology. And people see this and they think it is amazing. It is amazing. It's amazing vision of what we might have one day in the future, but it's not even close to what's realistic in the near term.

Exactly. That'd be Yes, I

this this notion of over heightened expectations does not serve us does not serve us well. As we look as we reflect back we just saw news that snap is buying yet another sort of made yet another acquisition this one around brain computer interface. I just read the news here on the net Just last day or so, but a little while back, they had acquired wave optics, which is diffractive waveguide technology company, which is, as you noted earlier, for certain kinds of use cases, that can make a lot of sense. But in that acquisition, snap is now taking, you know, one of these optical Indian providers for their own specific benefit, although, you know, in theory they get to work with others, at least in the short term, what's the outcome you're looking for? For TOS as a company? Where do you hope you go from here,

again, the board, the venture board, the telecom, we share the same vision, we want to upgrade with normal prescription glasses. And therefore, we think that a broad approach is the best. So that we don't have, let's say, one democratic design of frames, which will not work in one sales channel, which will not work. So I think you really have to differentiate also, with our technology, because there is the opportunity that you have got a lot of different brands finally, and, and when you go to, let's say, optician store as the consumer, the end consumer, it is the same if you go now to a car manufacturer, what do you what do you realize, I mean, you want to have got a good looking frame, you want to have got a working technology, and you want to have got a virtual image on your retina, you don't care if the waveguide is from this or that company, you don't care if the chipset the battery, you just want to have got a good solution. And you won't have got an attractive price point. And I think, to achieve this, it is better to differentiate and then to narrow down. And finally that somebody controls the market. And that is our shared vision, we want to have this upgrade story that everybody can just can make the tick in the box, get it. And we have access to the sales channels already, either with sides, but also with everybody else, you can have got licensing businesses and so on. First, we need not good solutions, and maybe not just one good solution. And our shareholders are quite relaxed, that good technology will finally have quite a benefit. And strategic partnerships is always a topic that you enter the market and with a good approach. But everything else we have, I cannot really predict it. So we are not nervous, we have not a pressure to find somebody which we have to explain why our technology is better. So either they understand it, or does not make sense to work together. So that's, that's our approach. And again, the market is huge. If you see an Asia myopia disease is a huge topic. So they have to work less from from young age on small children. So the glasses market is still increasing. They're all used to digital interfaces. And also other solutions are valid. And they will also make their way our technology will make the way and we see what the future brings. So it is a journey. Now it is not a project where we say Okay, tomorrow, it will stop and then we are all set, and then nothing will change anymore.

Intensity is a tremendous opportunity. And I was just reflecting on it was thinking through this, this notion that you noted that there's still the regular optics market is still itself growing rapidly,

rapidly. And yeah. And we have, especially in the booming market where the target group, I mean, what is the target group? Do you know somebody? I mean, I just heard it from from a designer who was in German automotive industry. He said, Do you know somebody who is streaming three hours every day content on his mobile device, sending 200 messages, and also is posting in social media platform 25 images every day? And then the whole audience said, No, I don't know somebody. And then he said, Ask your children. They do it. And that's reality, they would really make sense. That's a different topic. But I'm convinced they will buy this technology as soon as it is available, and then the business start and then there will be tons of money, applications, everything else, and then it will grow. And then there will be a path in the future, which will be great. And then we have quite cool projects and cool technologies at the end. That's it.

Amazing. Let's wrap up with a few in lightning round questions here. Okay, what commonly held belief about AR or spatial computing? Do you disagree with?

Yeah, we discussed it already. I mean, you also mentioned it, I don't believe that in 10 years, we will have got satellite connection in normal looking glasses with 100 degrees field of view, eye tracking, and everything. So I think that is will be difficult. And so I think we have to step back and be realistic. It's a little bit same with autonomous driving and flying cars and all the technologies. They take time. And there are a lot of good companies and smart people working on this and so I'm quite optimistic that we will be still happy with the devices which will which will come

besides the one you're building what tool or service do you wish existed in the AR market?

First the micro LED display in color though that is really one one big topic. I would really like to have it and personally I would. I would really love to integrate a lot Have or even more biometric data in this wearable devices, especially in classes also for, for health reasons. I mean, we have also just discussed that we have got the young generation which needs glasses, because they are just looking inside and they are all myopia. And we have got also an increasing amount of people who get older and need medical treatment, medical services, but we have not enough people to treat them well. And so the interface eyeglasses is a good interface because people have to wear it anywhere. And to integrate a lot of tech, like sensors, biometric sensors, would be great in both areas, and in between our guys like we just want to have it for whatever reason,

enthusiast, what book have you read recently that you found to be deeply insightful or profound? Read the book. And

I also saw a lot of videos and talks from Simon Sinek wrote the book, the infinite game, and it's a little bit. So it helped helped me personally a lot in my private life with the family and sports, and also in the business environment. So it is it is not a project, you don't have a you have got a we have got all these projects, but they are an endless game. So it's project after project after project and you have to really well you need a vision. And you have to answer yourself, what do you want to achieve? Do I want to sell a technology to somebody and get rich, it is a spot business? Or do I have a vision. And then finally you will get rich or sell something better if you have got really a good perspective, a long term perspective. It's the same in sports. I mean, either you're an athlete or not. And a competition is just the competition. And then there will be the next competition. If you're a soccer player, soccer player. I mean, there's one game, but you can always improve and there will be the next game. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. And I think in the business environment, it's it's sometimes very hard that the people just focus too much on on short term wins or quick wins and short term numbers. And again, it's the same with our shareholders, the shareholders say, Okay, we are a leader and optics and epic carrier. So why should we not provide a good technology to the market, if it happens tomorrow, fine. If it happens later, maybe even better. And, you know, this endless perspective that technology is merged that new innovations will come also into into this industry, that is really something which is implicitly discussed in this book, the infinite game is really a cool book.

That's awesome. I'm gonna check that one out. I've seen a bunch of Simon's videos from many years back. And he's a really dynamic speaker and thinker. And I have thoroughly enjoyed them. I remember his story about Dell, and Apple and kind of the perspective that these companies carry with them. And project really influences the sort of products that they have and the relationship that they have with their customers as well. Yeah. Anyway, I've looked for that one. Thanks for sharing that one. You could sit down and have coffee with your 25 year old self, what advice would you share with 25 year old guy,

sometimes, especially in the business environment, and I think that is the most interesting topic here. But again, also in sport and in private environment, I think I have this bold moves, so bold decisions, and then you have to prepare a decision quite good. But then you have to make a bold decision, and then don't question it anymore, you can adjust finally, and make the next decision. But what we also have learned here, we don't agree in every meeting, how we proceed and what would be the best solution, but you have to make a decision together about decision sometimes that you stop something or that you have maybe not the right person in the right role, and you have to search for somebody new. But that is the only thing which really helps you to survive and bring the full team yourself forward. So I really like this that say, okay, in the awareness that we have to make a bold decision that must be good prepared, and you have to invest a lot upfront, just to make bold decisions is not a good approach. But preparing good decisions, make a bold decision and then stick to it and maybe then prepare the next decision. Maybe you also say okay, it was not it was a bad boat decision. And we have to do it the same way. What we rejected, but that is what I have learned in the last years and with 25 Yeah, you don't care so much. You make a lot of decisions because you think okay, life is endless. Careers opportunities are endless technologies will be great very soon. You have to prepare a lot to make step by step decisions and stick to

it. What is the implication? If you don't take that approach, if you take the opposite approach,

you have you lose, you lose a lot of traction and you have got inefficiencies I would say I mean in the whole process with team members in the team and also with your shareholders also with technologies. And if you have got a good discussed vote decision, it helps and also be transparent about it. Why not? So as mentioned, we have quite frequently the bottom He thinks if quality is not good, then quality is not good. So then the question is why it is no good? And then you say, Okay, do we do we skip it now? Do we change the technology? Or do we have a second approach? The third approach? Or what would we do now? And then we have a decision. And then the decision is made. And we don't also in between our board meetings, we don't iterate. So there's a board meeting, and then we execute, and then there is a non next board meeting. And that is really efficient. And we can we can show up in the next board meeting and tell them okay, was the wrong decision, we learned now that we have to go two steps back, and that's also fine. And then they ask us, okay, what what was the cost? What did we burn now? What do you need to make the next approach? And I think that helps you to get rid of this inefficiencies.

That's great. Any closing thoughts you'd like to share?

First of all, thanks for for being your guests in the show. We started at the beginning, and I didn't have the chance to say thank you really love the show. I think there are some formats which are leading the industry. And yours is definitely one of the format's where the full team is always listening, where we learn a lot where we benchmark ourselves. And yeah, I would love to see you and present you our tools essence, Berlin, at augmented world expo in June, I can't wait to see it. So looking forward to meet you in person, we'll end at the end. Yeah, I think it was also for the industry, so we could not meet the customers due to the pandemic. Now we have got, again, crazy times in Eastern Europe, very close to our country. And I really hope that also from an economic point of view that we will get back soon into most stable times that we can focus again on the let's say not so important topics like pandemics or like wars, because what we do here is important, but at the end it is it is technology and somebody will win and somebody will lose but in the end it will not make a difference company, customers will be happy. But pandemic and was a different topic,

for sure. Where can people go to learn more about you and your work at tos?

Yeah, we have got the website live. It's tos.com, where we have also a lot of information about the waveguide a lot of presentations talks, which we made in the last especially last two or three years online. And also given outlook on the next upcoming designs like the essence one will be the next big thing where we give an idea about the concept as mentioned in the crazy design with a lot of cool features. And then in the summer time. Yeah, the essence Berlin reference design full fledged, which will be available sooner or later

in the shops. Fantastic. Kai, thank you so much for this conversation.

Yeah, you're welcome was a pleasure.

Before we go on to tell you about the next episode in it, I speak with Tomas sluka. Tomas is the CEO and co founder of C real a Swiss technology startup that developed and commercializes a radically new type of display that brings natural focal depth to a truly 3d visual experience within augmented reality. We discuss the origins his approach to light field displays, and why they are a significant improvement over today's stereoscopic displays. We also touch on cereals first commercializable product and his journey as a founder. I think you'll really enjoy the conversation. Please follow or subscribe to the podcast. Don't miss this or other great episodes. Until next time