We started with dogs that have been abused. You know, the culture there is that dogs are a nuisance animal. Much like we would consider coyotes here farmers would drive them away and they will use whatever means necessary sticks, rocks kicking, hitting, I mean, it's sad, but that was the culture. And so not only did we have to deal with feral dogs, but we dealt with people who are terrified of dogs hated dogs. Dog lovers
depend on their four legged friends for a variety of things, companionship, sport, unconditional love. But in the Western world, they don't always expect their dog to keep their livelihood intact. This is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College. I'm your host, Steve fast. Dogs have been working animals for centuries, but not everywhere. In Uganda, vanilla farmers sometimes have trouble with thieves who take their crop. In a few villages, though, they're getting some assistance from animals they had previously thought of as wild and definitely untamed. Let's introduce you to the trainer who is teaching some humans, some new tricks with dogs.
Hi, I'm Tina Zimmerman, I am a dog trainer, I own mainstream training. And I also teach courses here at Heartland, you do a
lot of interesting things with dog training. But when you are not traveling around the world, what types of dog training do you do here in Illinois,
three main areas probably locally the most is behavior modification, people come to see me when they have a dog that's aggressive or fearful or needs potty training. And then also I trained therapy dogs and service dogs.
Is it your experience that any dog can learn to, I guess, be a good dog? Or is it? Are there some instances where it's really a challenge?
I think any dog can be a balanced dog and maybe more of a struggle. And it depends on what the people's expectation is. Sometimes we get a dog that doesn't necessarily have the personality to match your expectations. And that's a hard train to turn around.
And sometimes the issue has as much to do with the owner as it does with the dog because they take the cues from the owner.
Absolutely, we tend to concentrate on what the problems are, instead of concentrating on how to help the dog recover and move forward.
When you're dealing with animals that haven't been all that socialized. And you have some pretty interesting experience dealing with dogs that have not had any domestication at all.
Yeah, I have a program in Uganda Africa called Harvest guards International. And what we do is we take feral dogs, and train them to be guard dogs for African farmers who are finally being successful, and being able to produce food for their families. They become victim to a lot of crime and people taking what they have. And so I was invited to come and do an exploratory program to see if it would work. And at the time, I was told that the farmers had access to German Shepherd breeders. When I got to this part of Uganda, it's very third world. There are no dog breeders whatsoever, but the farmers wanted to be a part of the program. And so they were actually capturing wild feral dogs, feral puppies, they wanted to be in the program, they had to have a dog so they did whatever they could to get a dog. And the first day of the program, I had to put a Martindale collar, flea and de worming treatment on these feral dogs. And so we started with dogs that have been abused. You know, the culture there is that dogs are a nuisance animal. Much like we would consider coyotes here, you know, on a sheet farm wheat, farmers would drive them away, and they will use whatever means necessary sticks, rocks kicking, hitting, I mean, it's sad, but that was the culture. And so not only did we have to deal with feral dogs, but we dealt with people who were terrified of dogs hated dogs. And within three days, we had dogs that were doing obedience skills that you would learn 810 weeks into a school here and what was the difference? was we had people who had no perceived notion of what the dog should do. If I told them hold your leash like this, and walk over there and stop. That's what they did. They were looking up they were breathing naturally, they were walking confidently. And so the dogs just responded and did exactly what they told them to do. Now the hard part was getting the physical touch because these dogs had never been touched by human hands. The humans had never touched dogs and so they were fearful. But it was amazing when they just followed instructions shut their brain off as far as what if, how? How will he what? You know, all the things we go through, they just did what I told them because they wanted to be successful so badly. And it worked. And so then we went back again, I was just there again in April in May, we went to another whole village, we started another whole school. And the same thing happened. So it wasn't just a fluke, you know, we pulled that off once. Now we're doing it, we're starting a third school. And we're taking dogs that have a horrible history, people that have horrible fear. But when they both decide, let's move forward, the magic happens
with the harvest guards program, you said you were asked to pilot the program? How did that come about? Who asked,
I've been visiting Uganda for nine years. And at one point I had stayed with a family, I had actually planned to stay somewhere else and ended up staying with a family who had a dog that they had gotten for their own protection, and the dog was not protecting them in any way, shape, or form. And so during my stay there, I actually train their dog. And as years progressed, they saw a need for what we're doing there now, and just came to mind that hey, there was a lady who stayed here years ago that trained our very, on a professional dog to do professional work. And they invited me back,
we'll talk a little bit about what you trained the dogs to do, what kind of professional duties they had as guard dogs, what did you have to teach them to
do? Well, because we started with feral dogs, we had to domesticate them first. The dogs were not used to being touched. And so literally the first week was how to pet a dog, how to gain their trust, how to be confident and not afraid of being bitten for the people.
And then once you had the dogs, basically being domesticated, what duties did they have as guard dogs? Did you have to teach them to know the difference between a stranger and a family member? What what sort of things?
Well, the very first level was obedience. That's where we start with everything. Because we could not have dogs that are hurting people in the villages, they had to be under control. And So level one was obedience. And nobody progressed unless their dog was in control and obedient. We did a lot of practicing of walking up to a stranger stopping shaking hands, greeting one another, and the dog had to sit quietly by their side, that was the very first level. And that continued to be instilled in the training all the way through, because at no point can we ever lose control of a dog that we've taught to bite. And so the second level was teaching the dogs to engage in chasing, which for them is all a game, chasing a toy chasing a ball chasing a person and just enjoying the chase. And you have to understand in this culture, dogs are considered a dangerous animal. They steal the food, they kill livestock, and they are very aware of rabies, and they consider a dog, a dangerous animal that if it bites you, you will die of rabies. And so dogs are driven off with sticks and rocks. And so just to turn that mentality around an hour, bringing the dogs in was very difficult for them. And then these dogs who have always been kind of preyed on by humans, now we're asking them to trust the humans and protect the humans.
So you mentioned that these dogs are just wild, they're feral. Have there been? What's it like when one of those feral dogs then comes up and encounters one of the dogs that's trained as a guard dog? Is there an interaction there? Does that happen?
Yeah, we actually had it happen quite often in the school because for school, in this part of the country, we're in an open field, that's our school. And so many times the feral dogs would come in the circle that we had of 25 dogs at one school, a wild dog would just wander in and I would think, Oh, we're gonna have dogs, you know, and just, I would get panicky, and it was interesting, the dogs would come in and kind of sniff and watch and then go on their way. You know, they didn't even react because they read the energy of all the people in the dogs in the circle, who were just going about business.
I would assume that the wild dogs are kind of in a pack in and of themselves. So when people are going out and acquiring the dogs so they can bring them to the class. There is that dynamic that is disrupted there. It's interesting for me to hear that they did take to the leadership and the guide of the people that were are training them as quickly as they did?
Well, these feral dogs are in survival mode. I mean, they don't get fed. There's not a lot of prey in this area as far as like, you know, we have rabbits and rodents and things like that there's, there's not that there's cattle, there's goats. And of course, they're driven away from those that they have shepherds that travel with the herds, for that very reason to run off the wild dogs and leopards, and whatever else is in that area. But the dogs, so quickly respond to the food that we train with number one. But the biggest thing is that I think as long as I've been doing this, I've never seen how deeply dogs desire that human relationship when they don't even know that they desire it. But as soon as we started putting our hands on them, the dogs just melted. Even these wild dogs that were trying to bite us, you know, just a gentle hand on their side, and they would roll over and just melt. You know, there's something so unique about dogs that they crave that human interaction, and so it's powerful.
Did you see a change in the people that hadn't had any kind of affinity for dogs? Absolutely. And maybe we're afraid of dogs?
Absolutely. I can think my first real inclination that this is happening. I had one of the farmers on the third day of school, he came to me with his dog when school was finished, and we were ready to walk out, he came to me with his dog and said, Madam Tina, something is wrong with my dog, I think she's sick, and I'm so afraid I'm going to lose her. And just his face the way he had bonded with this dog. And the thought of her passing away, was devastating to him. That was only three days in. And here we are now months later, that same young man is one of my assistant trainers, he's now teaching other dog owners in Africa and increasing the work, he still has that dog he's so in love with her. You know, it's just, it's just grown, because they have now found out the beauty of the relationship with a dog.
So when you were training the dogs to actually be guard dogs to be something that would seem threatening to somebody that was coming in to steal from the farm to do something detrimental to the people, their criminal was in the overall community, their sense that you're training dogs to be dangerous. I mean, they already were suspicious. Obviously, the people that had bought in and have the dogs that you were training, were on board. But was there any more of a concern inside of that?
I had chiefs from several villages come and watch the training because they were concerned about what we were doing. The farmers also, you know, they walked for miles with these dogs, and people saw them walking and mock them. And when they would tell them what we were training the dogs to do. They would laugh and say, You can't do that. It's not possible. You can't do that. It would be like if you saw someone walking through our town with a grizzly bear on a ropes am taking them to bear training. It's it's not a concept that they could even conceive at first. And so they were laughed at they themselves had never seen the process. And so a big difficulty was getting them to trust the process that going from chasing a tennis ball, which seems completely removed to chasing someone who just stole from you. How do we make that transition. But what I loved about the people in our schools was that they committed they came every single day. We worked all day, every day, for a month, and they just came in they trusted the process. And they saw little by little the progress that we made. But there was very much concern and there still is of what if he does bite somebody, and I had to research what their laws are. And it actually is very much like ours if someone is on their property. And their dog bites them on their own property. They have no liability in that. We actually had one farmer who that has happened, he voluntarily paid the medical fees of the person the dog bit. He wasn't required to but he felt bad because it wasn't. It wasn't a thief. It was a person that came onto his property and he told them Don't go near my dog and they did and they got bit.
You mentioned that there was a general sense of skepticism amongst people, and they came around when you approach this project, I suppose that it's got to be very different training one person's feral dog or untrained dog than it is taking on Do you know a whole village of these feral dogs? Are you sure you could do it now? What was the first day of trading? Like,
I had to just fake it. But I was told coming in by the gentleman who invited me to come that there was some German Shepherd breeders found out they were actually six hours away, there was no way these, these people could go purchase dogs. Number two, after dealing, I've actually bought two dogs in that area. It's not like here that we have our choice of what temperament what price range, what pedigree, it just wasn't realistic for any of them to go six hours away and buy a German shepherd. And so what they did was find puppies of feral dogs that were still young enough that they could capture them. And so the first day, my expectation, because this is what I was told was possible that I wanted dogs between six months of age to a year and a half of age that weighed 80 pounds. And what showed up was everything from five pound chihuahua mix looking like dogs, too. I think our oldest dog was 11 months old. And he was feral enough, wild enough that he was a liability. And all the dogs showed up with chains around their necks. They don't have access to collars and leashes, they had gotten chains that they had gotten in their business, or their farming or whatever. And this is what the dogs had on their necks, which was hard to see. But I had taken Martin Gill collars, which is the most gentle collar you can use for training, mainly because those collars don't slip off. And I didn't know how fearful the dogs were going to be, which in retrospect was very good because they were extremely fearful. So the first thing we did was fit them with a collar and a leash. And we treated them with flea medication. And just doing that the first day it was emotionally draining to see the condition of the dogs. And then I realized these aren't German Shepherds, these aren't tame dogs, these are dogs that have had no handling, whatsoever. And I I just went home and thought, I'm going to fail bigger than any failure has ever failed in the history of failure, and people are gonna think I'm an idiot. Didn't turn out that way, though. Surprisingly, no.
You mentioned earlier some of the cultural differences in the approach to dogs that people had in the area, where there other cultural differences that you had to surmount just working there, doing this thing that people in the village maybe thought was unusual things that we might take for granted, would be part of the overall culture of working with dogs training dogs for this purpose, things that you had to figure out that weren't the way it is, in other situations.
Well, culturally, number one being female, was a huge challenge. And I've learned from being there, as many times as I have to approach that right off the bat, and say, not apologetically. But just asking them, we're gonna have to put this aside because I don't have a male that can come and teach you I'm all you got. There's also just a culture of humility, that is expected from a female that we should not yell or raise our voice. We don't walk in front, we wear dresses in this village, which tactically that's challenging. And so just approaching, and I'm just very straightforward with them that I understand. I'm crossing some lines here. And I want you to understand that I'm here because I love you. And I want the best for you. And I'm trying to share everything I have with you. So see that from my heart. And if I do something that offends you, I'm asking you right now, to please forgive me, and still receive what I have for you.
What's the future of this program? It seems like you did it in one area of work pretty well. You went to another area, it's working pretty well. Where is it going? Now?
We've actually been asked to come back in a third world country like that. It's a very oral culture. And news spreads through one person telling another person telling another person and it was interesting. The first week of school the first time I went, the farmers came and said that people in the village were laughing at them, because they had dogs on leashes. They'd never seen that. Now we have villagers saying Why didn't get to come to that school? Will you come to my village and will you do a school there and so as soon as we can go back, we're going to start another one and it'll just keep spreading and the beauty of it To is when we do this not only the farmers attend with their dogs, but crowds of people, especially children come and just stare because number one, a white person, they're doing what with dogs? You know, it's very intriguing to them. But they've only seen dogs as wild animals. So it'd be like if I said to you, I want you to go capture a grizzly bear and bring it and let's teach it to do circus tricks. You know, how would that even work, but it's doable. Logistically, I'd like to be on the ground twice a year, there are one thing it's very expensive to go. And at this point, we don't have any type of sponsorship or funding. And so I'm basically working to raise enough money to get myself there, get the supplies, we have been fortunate to have several friends who have asked, What can we do? Can we buy some collars? Can we buy some flea medication. And every time someone does that, it's a huge break for me, because it's that much less I have to buy. And the sooner I can get back, my ultimate goal is to train trainers there. Because I don't want this to be an American program in Uganda, I want it to be a Ugandan program, and I want them to be able to do it. But I can't share 40 years of experience a month at a time, it's going to take a while till somebody has enough experience that they can run with it. But ultimately, that's my goal to make the program reproducible from an African standpoint.
So if somebody is interested in contributing the way you just said, anybody that their curiosity is piqued by this project, they want to help support it financially, whatever they can do, what's the best way to reach out to you
right now the best way of course, everybody's on social media. Facebook, we have a page that's mainstream harvest guards International, you can contact us there we are in the process of becoming 501 C three. And so eventually we will be on our own but we are partnered with a 501 C three organization called Harvest hands International, that is able to receive donations through them that are tax deductible.
Alright, Gina, thanks so much for coming in talking about this. Absolutely. Thank
you for having me.
Tina Zimmerman teaches dog training courses for continuing education at Heartland Community College. She is the owner of mainstream training and founder of the mainstream harvest guards international training program that is geared toward teaching people how to use dogs to protect their farms and families. If you're interested in topics like dog training, the animal world science history and more, subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to this one. Thanks for listening
