95. Madam C.J. Walker's Gospel of Giving: Black Women's Philanthropy During Jim Crow - Dr. Tyrone McKinley Freeman

3:58PM Mar 22, 2021

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Dr. Tyrone McKinley Freeman

Midroll

Keywords:

philanthropy

people

philanthropic

community

incredible

speak

jim crow

life

story

black women

fundraising

women

book

walker

freeman

philanthropist

important

write

generosity

cj walker

Welcome back to The we're for good podcast. It's women at impact week presented by virtuous. It's day three. And we're so glad you're here.

Hey, I'm john.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the we are for good podcast.

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So let's get started.

Hey, Becky. Hi. I'm so excited

today.

Yeah, we've got an incredible guest and incredible story you are in for a treat my friends. Today we are diving into a topic that honestly has not gotten enough sunshine, and we are here to shine a light on the history of African American philanthropy. And we have one of the premier torchbearers of that story. And a storyteller by Trey but also an incredible academician, in this space, somebody that is just a giver of knowledge and teacher and just an all around kind human being. So I can't wait to introduce you to Dr. Tyrone Freeman. He is with the legendary Lily family School of philanthropy up in Indiana that needs no introduction. But he is an assistant professor of philanthropic studies there. But he is really dedicated his life to this profession. Before teaching, he was approached professional fundraiser in the social services sector and worked for the fundraising school where he trained nonprofit leaders really all around the world. So we have got a legendary teacher in our midst. But a project that we really want to focus on with Dr. Freeman today is that he is dedicated a portion of his studies to madam CJ Walker. And that may be a name that is familiar to some of you, there was a really prominent Netflix movie that came out last year that gave shine some light on this, but he has done some incredible work just researching her story. And he called it the gospel of giving black women's philanthropy during Jim Crow. And this book just really did a deep dive into her ethos. And her incredible story as this self made millionaire, and this business woman who was really the pioneer in the space of philanthropy, who just had her heart in such alignment with philanthropy, and he just tells that story in such a beautiful way. And so I want to read a quote before I could get to you. And this is from madam CJ Walker's great granddaughter, who actually published the first book that I'm aware of about her. And she said, you know she had when she had republished this book almost two decades ago, she hoped there would be other scholars who would expand on what I had written. She intentionally included voluminous and notes with citations and primary sources as breadcrumbs for those who wish to learn more and had the curiosity to dig more deeply. And this is what I love. This is what we highlighted. Dr. Freeman has exceeded my expectation by exploring new dimensions of a walker as a philanthropist, and as an educator. His work opens the doors for a more inclusive and more meaningful analysis so that black philanthropy is a feature rather than a footnote of American philanthropy. So we are in for a treat

that the nicest endorsement you have ever heard of our entire

the nicest endorsement. So the man that needs no more introduction, please give a warm welcome to Dr. Tyrone Freeman, thank you for being here today.

Wow. Thank you so much. you've blown me away with that introduction. And you're right. I was blown away when when Miss Bumbles offered that contribution to the tech. So thank you for having me very excited to be well, it

is our sincere honor. And our enthusiasm is really all set

in mind is

would you kind of walk our listeners through a little bit of your story. How did you get pulled into now dedicating your entire life to philanthropy? We just like to hear about how you got here today.

Yeah, well, thank you. Well, so first, I'm the son, grandson, nephew and cousin of Baptist preachers and first lady's a African American church. So I grew up in South Orange, New Jersey and a very generous religious community. And the word philanthropy was not one that was used. And yet people every day were living their lives in a way where they were looking after others. They're caring for each other. And they would just think about it as doing what you're supposed to do, doing the Lord's work, you know, just trying to walk the walk. But these were the first philanthropists that I knew, and they are the ones that introduced me to this tradition. So fast forward. When I go to college, I went to Lincoln University, a historically black college right outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where again, exposed to an incredible and rich history and and even the relationships I was able to form with some of my professors speaks to what I like to think of as teaching as philanthropy and the ways in which they viewed me as more than Number, they wanted to help me catch the vision of who I could become and wanted to speak positive things into me and challenge me to pursue my dreams. And they did that, in fact, one. And then the acknowledgments of the book, I shout out one of those professors who told me I could and would write a book one day, and, and I can't tell you how much those words meant, even though those are several decades behind me now, but they show up because in this book, so from there, I went to graduate school out in Indiana, to study urban planning and community development. And that is how I found my way into fundraising. The first organization that hired me, I was writing proposals for them, they were doing Affordable Housing and Economic Development in an underserved area. neighborhood in Indianapolis, they sent me to the fundraising school. And while I had been writing proposals, I had no idea about this larger world professional fundraising. And so going to the fundraising school showed me that was there was more to it than just writing proposals. And, and that's where I kind of got bit by the bug and joined AFP and, and you know, followed with other positions as development coordinators and development directors on for youth social services, and eventually into higher ed, which was a whole different animal when it comes to fundraising and, and that's along the way there that my story just kind of keeps evolving, because I eventually transitioned to become an Associate Director of the fundraising school and had incredible experiences there interacting with fundraisers around the world and great mentors, like Timothy Siler, who was the executive director there that time, and, and really getting to see fundraising in different cultural contexts working in Singapore and Cape Town, South Africa, and Ireland and different places. And that's when I started going back to work on my doctorate in philanthropic studies, actually, and wanting to find a way to blend theory and practice and speak to issues that were important to me. And that led me to what is now that the Indiana University Lily family School of philanthropy at the time, it was the center on philanthropy, and I've been privileged to be a part of that transition from center to school, started out as a staff member now as a faculty member. And so I'm very honored to be a part of the building that institution and contributing things to the field, particularly as it relates to communities of color, and really lifting up this important history of generosity. That goes back to the beginnings of the country. And even before to pre colonial Western Africa. So that's kind of my, my, my roots. And and how I came to be in this field,

I just have to say, I love and this is not to pat ourselves on the back in any way. But I love hearing everyone's journey. And love that being the first question because no one intentionally goes into this business. And the way that we have all fallen into it is so interesting to me. And I think the part of your story that just fascinates me the most, and I just have to commend you and I can tell that you are very much a storyteller is that you laid the base of your story, if that was grounded in community and empathy, and the way that you the people that you were surrounded, by the way that they operated in life set this tone for you, that this is just the way that people do they lift up, they, they incircle, they, they find a way to fill in the gaps for people in that. And it's not something that you have to do, it's something that you want to do. And when you have that start in your life, and I can see this natural curiosity in you. It's just a beautiful thing that you have come into the nonprofit space into the fundraising space, because someone with your heart and your curiosity can truly revolutionize what we are trying to do in a big way. And so, one, I love that I love all of your background. And I really am just so curious to hear the story of madam CJ Walker, because I will confess that I had not heard of her as of a month ago when we started having this conversation about having you on the podcast. And the more that I dive in, the more I feel like what an absence in my life that I did not know that I'm so passionate about philanthropy and that I did not know her story. So I just want to kick it to you. And have you tell our listeners about the power of this woman and she really does seem like a woman who was ahead of her time.

Wow. Thank you. You tried to have me cry over here. Nice.

That's very nice. But that's all about that connection. And you know, and that's what being in conversation about this book has just brought even more generosity as people have shared similar things. So thank you for that. No matter Walker was an incredible American. She was born Sarah breedlove in 1867 on a cotton plantation in delta, Louisiana, and all of her family members, her parents and her four siblings had been enslaved. But she was the first freeborn child so you can imagine the joy In the sense of hope her parents must have felt the holding her two days before Christmas that year. But but then life quickly turns tragic. She's orphaned by the age of seven. She begins working as a washer woman in her very early teens, as she marries in her mid teens has a child. And then tragedy strikes again, her husband dies. So now she's widowed, and she's poor, and she's struggling. And at this time, we are at the point now where the promise in the hope of reconstruction where African Americans got their first real taste of freedom, and the beginnings of citizenship was literally ripped out from under them as as an angry white South literally rose up and took their country back and left Jim Crow behind in its wake. And this is the context in which she finds herself in her early years. And, and so it's a devastating situation. And she's a black woman in this context, right. And so she makes her way up to St. Louis, where she reconnects with her brothers who had a barber shop in St. Louis. But but a critical part of the story there, she gets connected with the St. Paul African Methodist Episcopal Church in St. Louis, which still exists to this day, by the way. And I tell the story in the book about how the church was one of these places that helped to lift her up, much as I was saying, for my life, is this place where she was surrounded by other black women, who were doing work in the community who were building institutions like orphanages and old folks homes and speaking truth to power regarding Jim Crow and segregation. And so she finds herself in this new kind of environment where there's a sense of hope and possibility and opportunity to get a little education and get her daughter into school and begin trying to build something for herself. And the story advances, she spends about 15 years in St. Louis, she begins working for another black woman named Annie Malone, who had a beauty products company during this time. And we need to know more about Annie Malone and celebrate her because she's equally a pioneer of this field. And is after working for any Malone that she develops her own products in haircare for black women, and she marries a man named Charles Joseph Walker. That's where the CJ Walker comes from. She calls herself madam CJ Walker puts her name and face on the product, which was revolutionary for the time, a very dark skinned woman with a broad nose and full lips, and just counters the image that was being portrayed as what beauty was and her products began to take off. And she was relentless. She was out there, promoting the products, knocking on doors going from town to town. And so eventually she makes her way to Indianapolis. And that's where she sets down roots. So this is around 1910. She incorporates the business and builds a factory sets down roots and that would become the headquarters of our company and remain so until recently, wood has been sold and is now part of the union labor Corporation. And so you can still buy madam Walker product to this day through Sephora. So it's it's it's it's an incredible story. But the real important thing here is not that she went on to become a millionaire was that she saw herself as someone who had a responsibility to her community, she saw herself who had to bring her resources to bear in the struggle for freedom. And so she began to, you know, she used her company, and what a way we would call social entrepreneurship today, but she was doing it 100 years before it was a B school buzzword, where she thought very intentionally about how the company could serve the community and create economic pathways for the downtrodden. And the people who who the Jim Crow economy wanted to keep locked into low wage, menial labor and a lot out of genuine opportunity. But you could become a walker agent, and really earn a meaningful wage and and take care of your family in ways that the rest of the Jim Crow economy wouldn't allow for. She spoke truth to power, she was a part of the anti lynching movement, the women's voting rights movement, the temperance movement, you know, so she recognized the power of her celebrity and her influence, and spoke up regularly for these issues. And she built a network of schools. And so she became an educator. And, again, in this Jim Crow environment, where, you know, black education is very political and, and is not being provided equally or adequately. But you could earn that credential and become an agent or hang your own shingle and begin doing hair care out of your own home and again, build a different pathway for yourself. But across this story, and the thing that I always like to highlight is that, you know, she ends up dying in 1919, in a $250,000.34 room mansion in Irvington on Hudson, New York, where a nearby neighbor is Mr. JOHN D. Rockefeller. And now that is not supposed to happen in Jim Crow America. But she did it anyway. But across that journey is this thread of generosity. Her philanthropy didn't begin in the fancy mansion during the last few years of her life. She didn't spend her life accumulating wealth, and it later turned to philanthropy as some of the many storied philanthropists did. She was giving when she was that poor struggling with orphan, the single mother in St. Louis, who was in just as much lead as the people, she was helping through her church, but she realized that responsibility to others and that she had to do something, even though she was still struggling. And so that's where she first reports becoming engaged, recognizing her responsibility, and really thinking about herself as what many women of that generation referred to as race women, as black women, they were race women, they were, they were dedicated to uplifting the race out of the scourge of Jim Crow, and into liberation and freedom. And so she worked hard to meet interpersonal needs, and she worked hard to bring down the structures of Jim Crow. So I think she's a very accessible model of philanthropy that any of us can gravitate towards. Because it's not about wealth. It's simply about generosity. It's not

going after that.

I mean, you were just a phenomenal storyteller, I feel and our team, we're texting of how incredible of a storyteller you are and how leaned in we are to just, I think this person, this human that was not afraid to just follow the mold, she carved her own path, she created her own table, she created a table, you know, that didn't even exist. And I just think of all the layers in which she was pioneering, all with this philanthropic spirit, even her business model that was about empowering other people and giving, you know, these opportunities to other women. I mean, just so ahead of her time, you know, everything we talked about with major gift philanthropy, and even release, first gift philanthropy is about, people are aligning with their values. And that's where people start really start to register. What are you know, you've spent so much time with her and I just, we were reflecting before we recorded that she had to feel part of your family, you know, as you dug into this research, what were those values, you know, that you think, really stuck stuck out to you. And that really translated into how she dedicated her philanthropy throughout her life?

Yeah, well, that's what I try to articulate. That's why the book is called madam CJ Walker's gospel of giving. That's my articulation of her philosophy, cuz she didn't write about it, which is, which is interesting. Um, she was just doing it. And so in an effort to try to get a sense of why she gave what she was giving, how she gave, I came up with with three ways of thinking about it. So the first is to give as you can. And then this is the value of the idea that no matter your situation, there's somebody that can benefit from something that you have. And this is very much reflective of young Sarah in St. Louis, a struggling widowed young mother, trying to get her own footing. And yet she becomes a part of things like the might Missionary Society at her church where she begins knocking on doors, raising money, get delivering food to people, giving an engaging, extending herself. And so it's important to get this idea of start with what you have, you don't have to, you know, kind of wait until some later situation emerges. So get as you can. The second is, is, is spare no use for me, it's this idea that money is is a resource and is a gift, but people need more. And, and so this is where I talk about how she she used her company, as a gift in many ways as a platform for engaging these issues. She used her voice to speak truth to power, on issues of lynching and women's voting rights and other things. She used these schools to provide education and become an important educational provider. And then the last part is this idea of, you know, give more as your means increase, that are giving us something that can unfold over time, doesn't have to kind of again, come later in life, when we feel more comfortable to give, but there's somebody who needs something now. And I think that that's those are those are how I would frame the values that went into her her philosophy of giving it what she was trying to do. And that's reflective, again, of her community. One thing I didn't want to do is I didn't want the millionaire label, to cause us to put her on a pedestal separate and apart from her community. Yes, she did have a mansion, she had cars, she enjoyed the fruits of her labor. But she also very much saw herself as somebody grounded in the community. And I show you the communities that she came from networks of black washerwomen networks are fraternal in networks of club women in church, women, who were influential upon her and who she came to represent. So it's important to make that connection and see her as somebody deeply grounded in community. And those are those are some of the values there that I think were important in crafting the story about her philanthropy which tends to be something where we only focus on some of the famous monetary gifts she gave, but it was so much more to it, which is reflective of the broader history and culture of African American philanthropy, particularly black women's leading role in it.

I love this conversation so much and do you know when you are reading a book, or watching a movie about someone, maybe it's a memoir or biography and you feel like you know them and you feel like you would be great friends with them. If you knew them. That is how I feel Right now and I have to tell you, my mom grew up in St. Louis and I know where this churches that you're talking about, crystallizes for me that this is so real, and and in for anyone, I want to take a step back. So if anyone out there who's listening right now, and you're asking yourself, how do I define my own personal philanthropy? How does our family define how we give in this lifetime, I truly hope that you just wrote down those three values. And I'm going to repeat them because I think that they are so groundbreaking and wholesome. One, give as you can. to spare no useful means. Three, give more as your means increase. And I want to, I want to just put a pin in this really quickly, because I think what you said, is so powerful, because when people think about philanthropy, I think it's just natural for them to think about giving monetarily and it's so much bigger than that. And this concept of everyone can benefit from something that you have, whether it's your voice, and and she was living this, which is what I love. I mean, she is she is opening up schools, she is standing up for what is to me one of the greatest human atrocities in life and in the history of the world, which is lynchings, public lynchings. And this is a way that anyone can pour into the ideals of philanthropy. And I think this conversation, the reason it, it just makes me feel so happy and endeared to her is because not only was she a pioneer, but she is the giant on whom we are standing on her shoulders. Today, she has laid this incredible groundwork. And so I just want to know, you have spent decades studying her how has immersing yourself in the story, in this research? How has this changed you as a human?

Wow, that's a great question. It's, it's given me a deeper appreciation, again, for just how powerful this history is. And it gives me a different lens for seeing my mother in a different way, seeing my aunts, my grandmother's, the women of my church, right? That they're that they are this tradition today. And and the reason why I grew up in this culture and saw these things is because of them and, and that their elders did it for them. And that's the kind of thing that traces back to Madame Walker's generation. And then, you know, and then you know, but madam Walker was socialized in this too. So it was something that pre existed before her, she just comes along and creates a very unique platform for amplifying it so that we can go back and have this nice person and story to connect it to but but it kind of speaks to that history of that heritage, how generations have passed these kinds of things down. And it's in, it's in the generosity of our mothers, it's in the generosity of our arts, right. But the little things that they do, these are the things that don't make the headlines in the newspaper, but they're very philanthropic. And they speak to that, that generosity, that, that that looking after that neighbor that taking that senior citizen to the doctor's appointment, that, you know, that these these little, these are the things that that the daily work of philanthropy, in our everyday lives that really keep our communities going. You know, and so, so seeing that, and it just gave me a new appreciation for the people in my life and what they did for me, and it makes it a sense of responsibility to to how to carry that on. So that it exists for for the next generation.

Yeah, I think you said something that I'd love to circle back to, to is just that her life, her lens that she put out there is as a appropriate lens to just understand the history and understand the depths of African American philanthropy and its roots. So I wonder if you kind of walk us through that and, and give us some, you know, tidbits that we've been missing, you know, and please in light. Yeah,

yeah, I think of my work as being about answering two big questions who counts as a philanthropist? and What counts is philanthropy. And I have found African American philanthropy and philanthropy leaders of color as as a great way to pursue those questions because they do challenge these conventional definitions. Much of the way we think about philanthropy comes from tax policy, the charitable tax deduction, but that only goes back to 1969. Right, but philanthropy goes back aeons. Right. So so we've got to think broader, right? I got to think beyond tax policy, when we really think about what is this human phenomenon? And then in our own culture and context, we also got to think it's not just a white phenomenon, right? That is something that all of us can plug into, regardless of race or culture. And so African American philanthropy is trying to follow that trail and and understand What it is is led me back to some really interesting things. So one of the things I'd like to point out is that in 1909, the great scientist and historian web Dubois wrote that few races are more philanthropic than the Negro. He wrote that in 1909. I mean, what was going on in 1909? That's not, we don't associate black people and philanthropy in 1909, together, right? This is the, this is the height of Jim Crow. And he makes this observation as a scientist, not as a casual observer. But even still, he was late to the game, there was a black woman named Gertrude Moselle in 1894, who basically said the same thing, she was a journalist and an activist who wrote an essay called the work of the afro American woman. And in it, she talks about black women as philanthropists. And she's she's not just she's talking about them in a broad context, teachers and club women then, and, and, and artists, and she's just really crafting this incredible picture of, of what philanthropy looks like buying among African Americans in 1894. And then you you come across other things. There's an Irish historian who's written about how in 1847, there were a group of enslaved Africans in Richmond, Virginia, who sent money to Ireland to help people dying from the potato famine. Imagine being enslaved, and you are raving and sending money to Europe, the country that originated your enslavement, or the continent rather, write up but that is again, so there's there's this this kind of giving engagement that's just deep and historic. And part of the ways in which people have looked after each other, try to survive, tried to respond to situations, the larger circumstances that that American society was intentionally creating to make life difficult for them. Deep intention, this wasn't by accident. And so it really shows you what do you do, when not only is the government creating these conditions, right, but the private market is complicit. And even our own beloved nonprofit sector is complicit because there were white social service agencies that wouldn't take in black children, or black clients, right? So So what do you do when the sectors of society even though they didn't really think about sectors back then are actively, right conspiring and working against you and trying to make your life difficult, you turn inward, you call together the resources that you have, and try to get by, and you try to reform. And that's this deep history of engaging, and it goes back again, from colonial to the present. In every era, there's there's evidence that activity of black people asserting themselves trying to take care of themselves, speaking truth to power, whether it's the the abolition movement, you know, into the anti lynching movement, or the civil rights movements, and now Black Lives Matter, there's, there's just an incredible history and thread of the struggle for liberation. And so I'm wanting to kind of inject a philanthropic lens to view that work, because there's a lot of historians and great scholars who've looked at this in terms of activism and, and other ways of, of civic engagement. But I wanted to connect this to the history of philanthropy, because I see it as something that's very much connected. And and speaking with. And speaking to this collaborative nature, I have to say that my work would not be possible without a whole general generations of black women's historians who had already done the work to excavate this history of activism, and this history of engagement and speaking truth to power across American Historical errors, right? And so and for them, to embrace me into being conversation with them and presenting together at conferences and thinking about the chapters of this book together. I mean, so even that speaks to some of this generosity and sharing knowledge. So I always try to cite the black women who've supported this work and made it possible. Because again, that's part of that tradition that working together and understanding,

thinking about these things through this philanthropic lens. So African American philanthropy is something that has begun existed from the beginning of their American experience here. It was used to meet needs within the community, it was also used to speak truth to power and try to bring down systems and to change and make America America better. And that's where I think it's part of black people's gift to America, in terms of demonstrating this generosity in spite of not letting the hate the evil, turn you away from who you are giving in spite of giving still an engaging still and edit process demonstrating a love of country and a love of humanity. Right, which is the decor of philanthropy that speaks to what what this is supposed to be about. And African Americans I've worked across the generations to force America to try to be it's better itself. And that's part of this philanthropic tradition as well. And that's what we see going on now with Black Lives Matter and need to and and criminal justice reform and performing public education. at all the different sectors because that is the historical fight. That is the historical fight for access and equality and all of those areas that continue today.

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My name is Alana Morrow, and I'm the US operations manager for the freedom story. And we focused on prevention of child exploitation in northern Thailand. And by providing resources and scholarships to at risk youth and their families. virtuous has been extremely helpful for our organization in that it allows us to pull reports in data on donors very easily, as well as allows us to send out automated emails and see what the insights and feedback is for that. And that has allowed us to grow our organization organically and know what our donors respond to.

We need to find a pulpit, at the next AFP conference or whatever, or wherever this is in the world. And we need to put Dr. Freeman in it. Because I actually think that you are on to something so brilliant, right here. Because you're right. And I think the word that is resonating with me is hate. I mean, you can come at this topic and a lot of different ways. But if you can look at it with love, if you can look at it with empathy with humanity, I love that you brought up, you know, the meaning of philanthropy, which in itself is the love of mankind. And if we can be the great equalizers when we come from a place of love, and let me just tell you, you know, I justice, if anyone's ever listened to me, Justice is one of my core values, I can't help it I was born that way. I don't like it when things are not fair. I do not like it when things are not equal. But if you are someone who seeks justice, and seeks a level playing field, you know, we call it having a seat making a seat for everyone at our table. And I i hearken back to core value number one of we are for good, which is everyone matters. And, and I kind of want to read it here if it's okay, because I have a way I want to talk about it. But it's very short. So hold on, you are seen and welcome here. Regardless of your background, gender, race, or socio economic status, you are cherished and appreciated our kitchen table, we believe philanthropy holds, its only full expression to change, to change a generation when all are included, and all are valued. We believe in cultivating a space for transformational gifts are lifted alongside those small yet mighty gifts. And if you subscribe to that, and if you believe that we can make a place for everyone at the table, then I think what you just said is a massively powerful thing that can really inspire a movement. Because, you know, Black Lives Matter, me to all of these movements that we're seeing right now are a move to equalize a move to level up. And I think philanthropy is such a beautiful expression in a way to give what you can say lift your voice when it matters, to help people who are struggling, and to give generously because it feels good. And so I just think that this little sojourn that you're on, I'm all about it. I'm packing my backpack, I want to come with you. I don't know where you're going. But I want to go with you. And I just think it's really a beautiful thing. And to know that you are someone who's been in the trenches of fundraising, you know what it's like to sit down with someone and ask them to come along and connect with you. I think it's just a very relatable thing. And so the last thing I just want to say on that is, you know, we've all heard the expression that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. That is why we are this conversation is so important. And I'm really appreciate everyone who is listening today because we need to know, historically, how our industry was set up who were the pioneers, what did they have to overcome, to level up and bring us along to where we are today. We don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past. We want to learn from them. We want to do better. And so going back to the fact that you were a fundraiser back in the day, the fact that you work at what I think is one of the premier fundraising and nonprofit schools in the world. What is a story that says out to you a moment in philanthropy that you would share with us that changed your heart. And it doesn't have to be about madam CJ Walker, but it can be and I tell you to go anywhere.

Sure, wow, it's great. So I'll go back to my, my roots on this one. When I was a teenager, one Sunday morning, following service, as people, you know, normally write greets, and say hi and catch up and those kinds of things, fellowship, that sort of thing. And I remember walking down the aisle in my church, and coming towards me, it was a man named Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns was a long standing member of our community, his family have been a part of my church for generations and, and he was walking towards me, and he kind of looked directly at me and kind of made like a beeline directly for me, and he stopped me. And he's an elderly man, he was retired by this point, but a very fit very active and engaged and, and, and he put his hands on my shoulder I was getting I was about 1415, he put his hands on my shoulder, and he looked me dead in the eye, Tyrone, you could be president, the United States one day if you want to. And he just kind of patted me on my shoulder, gave me a hug and just walked on. That was it. And, and, and, and that stuck with me. And it's funny, I ended up like writing my first college paper about that a few years later. But it was it stuck with me because it speaks to this idea of words as gifts, it speaks to this idea of the power of words to build up or to tear down, you know, words can start wars, or they can bring about peace. And even Scripture says death and life are in the power of the tongue right for him, to see me as a young man growing up on the east coast in the 1980s. And lots of things going on. And wanting to speak life into me speak something positive in the sense of hope to see me in a way that, again, wasn't always the case that the larger societal messages that society sends black males about who they are and what they do, can be really bewildering for for a team. So he spoke this into me, and it stuck with me, I never wanted to be president. But that wasn't the point. The point was to reach and the point was to try. And and I thought about him very deeply, that that that fall night in 2008, when we all saw the Obama family walk out across a Grant Park, he had long gone, he had left us by then he was had passed away. But I knew that would have been a special moment for him because his generation worked so hard for something like that. But he couldn't benefit from that, but but we could, because their generation made the sacrifice. And, and and the generations before did that. And Madame Walker's generation did it for that, you know, it's this, this obsession of these generations who invested in the struggle, and made that kind of progress possible. And so I just lift that up, as why you know that the power of words and and that a walker knew this is why she frequently shared her story. She knew that the Jim Crow narratives about black life were evil, telling you that you're less than that you're you're inferior, that you're prone to criminality prone to hypersexuality, prone to mRNA all these things, right, and you need somebody to speak a good word into your life to push back against this nonsense, and that continues to this day. And so it's those little things that that power of words, I'll never forget the power of that gift and what it meant what it has meant to me. And, and that's why I tried to be Be careful about my words and speak life into my students and others, because it is so so vital and so central.

Okay, I think we're all trying to enroll in your class on Friday. Oh, can we hang out with you more often? If there's a thread that I have just felt, you know, since the beginning of this conversation with you is just when you're in the industry of nonprofit work, I think we got to a place where it's just real limited of what philanthropy means, you know, year after year, its fundraising goal, and how many people came in these metrics, and you can get so lost in the metrics. But I feel like the conversation today is that philanthropy is so much bigger, more beautiful, more all encompassing, more inclusive, and needs all of us to speak into it and to lean into it in whatever way and gifting position you're in today. Like there's no pass at this. And Madam CJ Walker was doing that before it was in vogue. And before it was real popular. But she was living that out in the smallest of ways in the big way. So thank you for that. Like I'm just processing and I look forward to kind of just diving more into that as I soak up this conversation today. Dr. Freeman, one thing we ask all of our guests is what is your one good thing and I just honestly can't wait to hear what you have for us, but they could just be a piece of advice or just something applicable today for all of our listeners.

One good thing I would say, give along the way. Don't wait to give along the way. Do what you can with what you have. We need you. We need your You're your energy, we need your strength, we need your words, we need your, your talents, it's really all hands on deck. Because there's a lot of, there's a lot of pain and suffering out there. There's a lot of injustice is out there. But like you have along the way, do what you can with what you have. And that doesn't absolve government and public pot, we need public policy and other beds, there's a role there. It doesn't absolve the private sector, but it's as far as how we live our own individual lives, right, give along the way.

And it subscribes to this idea that we believe that that everyone has something to give. And if you can just help one. That's enough. That's enough, because someday we may be the one. And we're going to need someone to lift us up. So that was a great one. Okay, Dr. Freeman, I have a feeling that you are going to develop somewhat of a cult following after this interview. I will be at the front of that line. How can people connect with you? Are you on social anywhere? Where can they learn more about your book? I know you have a website dedicated specifically to that. So you give us all the connection points that we can put in our show notes so people can connect with you.

Oh, great, thank you. Well, I do have a website, www gospel of giving calm. Information about madam Walker and some cool videos and audio, audio files and pictures and things like that to dig deeper into the story. I'm on Twitter, at McKinley, Tyrone, MC KINLEYTYR o ne, McKinley, Tyrone at McKinnon Tyrell, also on LinkedIn, Tyrone McKinley framing PhD. And so and I'm at the Indiana University Lily family School of philanthropy, philanthropy that IUPUI UI that Edu

Well, I just want to thank you for this incredible journey that we have been on, I feel such a heart of gratitude for what I've learned today, I feel like it's grown my heart. I also want to thank you for being a man who would take on women's philanthropy and champion it in the way that you did. Because I think that is so important. You know, we're going through this women's philanthropy week, and it just takes partners of all kinds, all races, all genders, to ensure that we are telling the stories of women who have done pioneering and incredible things. And so I thank you for your heart. And I'm putting you in as the first inaugural member of the good humans Hall of Fame, because

Wow, thank you. Thank you. That's incredible. And on that, you know, I didn't set out to write a book on women's philanthropy, but I follow the evidence in it. Let's work let me back to it was important to ground Matt Walker story in this deep history of black women's engagement. And again, I'm indebted to these black women's historians who had done a lot of that work, but had not really connected it to philanthropy. And so it's been a joy to be in conversation with them. And I feel privileged to have been in conversation with them in order to do that work. And I hope that it leads inspire somebody else to do more and go even further, and expand that because we need more. There's there's so many more stories out there. There's such a great history where we're not even this isn't even it's not even the tip of the iceberg. This is kind of a tip of the tip of the iceberg, or whatever that term would be. There's just so much this history is rich and deep. And it cuts across communities. And we need to know more our indigenous communities, we need to be celebrating that and understanding that our LGBTQ brothers and sisters and friends, they need to know their stories. And it's just it's very, it's very, very important to do this work.

And back to madam CJ Walker's great, great granddaughter, you picked up her breadcrumbs. And so the challenge becomes who will pick up yours. And I can just see this narrative going on and on and on. It's going to be a beautiful thing. Thank you for what you're doing. I hope you keep researching. We'll keep reading.

It's been a huge honor.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to today's conversation. We hope Dr. Freeman gave you an incredibly full heart today by sharing the story of madam CJ Walker, we honor the visionary philanthropist who laid an incredible foundation for all of us to follow today. You probably hear it in our voices, but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free. And you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. It's our own social network and you can join today we're for good, calm, backslash. Hello. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is sunray by Rumi Boers. Boom. Thanks so much for being here, everyone.