Classroom to Copy #17: Celebrating Copywriting Wins with Ex-Teachers Charlotte Ellis & Ben Henken

10:07PM Oct 4, 2023

Speakers:

Tania Yeo

Ben Henken

Charlotte Ellis

Keywords:

cool

freelance

charlotte

journey

copywriting

client

work

freelancer

ben

agency

posts

writing

call

day

experience

spent

retainer

job

talking

campground

Hey everyone, how's it going? Welcome back to another episode of classroom the coffee. Super special one because I have two previous guests back on then handgun and Charlotte forgot Charlotte last name. What's your last name? Ellis Ellis. I just blanked out I'm very nervous right now because I'm you know, I'm pretty convinced technology will fail on us today I'm not traveling with my usual stuff. So all right I'm not gonna hold them back any longer Charlotte's in New Zealand Ben's with me right now in Nashville where we're gonna attend copy chief live by Kevin Rogers. We have tried to plan this interdimensional conversation for for several weeks now. We're finally done it. So that's a win. And yeah, and I have them back on because they posted wins recently on the coffee chi forum and I would love for them to share. You know, I think it would be so great. All right to have like several examples. On one show of like, teachers winning and copywriting. So Charlotte, could you introduce yourself and what it is that you do now what you used to teach.

Used to be a preschool teacher. And around this time last year in November 2022, I left teaching to do freelance copywriting and now I've just landed an agency job I work for personal branding social media agency, and I'm the copywriter writing copy for all our clients.

So cool. So she's going to share you know, the, the journey she took to where she is today. But before we do that, Ben Do you wanna introduce yourself and and reintroduce like what used to teach and what it is that you do now? The adventures you have been on recently.

That's gonna take a whole podcast and its own. The short version. I was in education for 12 years and high school education. I was a math teacher for six and then an assistant principal for six so June of what would be 2022 2021 I'm like losing the years now it's I left left education full time to pursue freelance copywriting and email marketing career so it would be 2022 It's been about a year, a little over a year now that I've been doing this full time. So it's been a cool experience a cool journey and recently landed my biggest retainer client since startups, which was a really cool experience. So we dive a lot more into how that came to be and how we've gotten to this point in the last year. And a half.

Awesome. So I guess I guess this question is a bit repetitive like, but would you like to elaborate? If both of you elaborate further on on your wins and the nature of the win? Why what it means to you personally, because you guys have recently snagged like pretty, like steady gigs. I'm sure the journeys you took were quite different and just talk about what it means for you at this point in your journey from, you know, teaching to copywriting. Charlotte, do you want to go first was a very long and convoluted question. I'm so sorry.

Full time freelancing for about 10 months and I I just kind of got to the point where I felt like because my background is not in marketing. I was limited in my kind of overall knowledge. Like copywriting. I could. I knew what I was doing. But I wanted to learn from people who were doing other things in the marketing space and also, I kind of miss being in a team and being able to bounce ideas off a lot of people. I felt like working from home all the time I spent so much time like in my own head and sometimes like having that space to bounce ideas around really helps me be more creative. So I sort of applied for this agent agency job like on a whim because I was really torn between like, do I give up the flexibility or like you know, there are pros and cons to freelancing versus having a job. So I was it was sort of out of the blue unexpected, but I've realized that it's a really good like I'm in a good place now being in this job because I'm learning so much. And it's been cool to get feedback from other people on my writing to actually know like, it's different getting feedback from a client versus someone who you they have spent a long time honing their own writing craft. So I feel like it's going to make me a much better writer and it's also going to give me more well rounded experience in like running a marketing campaign working with a client you know, for 12 months versus just kind of a one off project and being on the sidelines on us as a copywriter just only being a small part of it. Being able to work with the designers and the videographers and you know, people doing the strategy has been really, really exciting and fun.

So what would you say would be the biggest difference in your day to day life now you know, compared to when you were freelancing.

When you're freelancing you don't actually spend I feel like I only spent maybe half the time writing the rest of the time was like prospecting, meeting with potential leads. Posting on LinkedIn and networking and things like that, which it's not that I didn't like doing that. But sometimes it was hard to balance like finding new work and also doing the actual writing. So it's kind of nice every day to just wake up and know what I'm working on. And sitting down to write because I do really like writing. So I think that's probably the big difference is it's not 5050 it's more like 80% writing 20% You know, meetings and other things.

Yeah. I mean that for me that that was the biggest difference to that. I appreciate. I have I have so much respect for like freelancers and I've said this to you so many times I've said this to Chris Yeah. So what about for you? Can you talk about this retainer client because I know you told quite the story on coffee tea for sure.

It was a big one. So kind of the backstory leading into this when I when I left teaching and started pursuing a freelance copywriting career I had zero background in marketing. I was coming essentially from from ground zero. I had no network I had no no previous skills I could rely on I couldn't put a resume together other than taking the skills that I had from education, which we all know transfer nicely to all sorts all over the worlds but going into a marketing world that people look at many cases that look at an educational background unless you can portray it in such a way they don't see they don't see the ability for it to to really make that leap. So I had been working with an ad agency for a little over a year. They were doing mostly pay per click. They were front end with Facebook ads, Google ads, and for a few of their clients. I was writing email on the back end and it gotten to a point where I had almost I pretty much I'd outgrown that relationship because my ability to earn was capped based on the clients that I was working with and the agency relationship so I was ready to go kind of out on my own and do more freelance pure freelance work. And this was the first client that I connected with actually connected with them off of Upwork was kind of my my initial lead and did an email audit for them and put together a proposal but I was able to take the monthly revenue that I was earning from the agency and fully replace that with this single retainer client, which was just a massive step in my in my journey to be able to take what was three to four different accounts through the single agency and transfer that into just one account. We're over an hour over the past six seven weeks, I've been able to dedicate more time to that singular account learning their products, their strategy, their email, marketing their team. And so that alone has been a really cool experience and like it's freed up more time on my end, like Charles singular to do more of the prospecting more than LinkedIn outreach more of the content generation watch I know in the next few months will help continue to increase my own my lead generation as a freelancer my own business which is which is cool and it's interesting to hear from from Charles respected. I know from your perspective as well. That decision of do I stick with the freelance part of it? Do I go with a full time that's I've struggled with that as well and that's part of it's my own stubbornness that I knew I wanted to be a freelancer that control so I there's been a couple opportunities to either full time full opportunities or potential opportunities to go in house or to go full time. And I've struggled with that because there's the Charlotte likes to try to touch on a lot of those aspects. The team building aspect that getting the feedback, working, especially coming from education, you work so much as a team. So doing the freelance part of it. It's so much of a change, but that's for me has always been my guiding light. It's where I wanted to be having control of, of why where I am or what I'm doing. So it was really cool to get this opportunity to see this come to fruition after a year and a half of some really really cool opportunity with a big company. Full fully change, really what I'm doing on a month to month basis.

So before I asked like the next question, which is one of the biggest questions that I have, I just want to take some time to like congratulate both of you and you know, it's just it's gonna be the cheesy corny part, but you know, I love uplifting the people and just like showing them off to the world and like look at what former teachers can do. So when I saw your posts on coffee Chief, I was like, I don't care how hard it is to get all of us on one call like we're gonna do it's gonna be an epic episode. And now you have it

you're tough but the cool thing isn't you don't give yourself enough credit. All the events are all of our all of our journeys have been dear friends I've admired us since we were in Escape Velocity last summer together i I'll never forget those calls and seeing you pop by every everyday you've had questions and your journey from from then till now what you've been able to accomplish and the collapse I want somebody earlier we were I met up with another congrats here for the natural event. And we were talking about our journey shed another she's in the education world as well. But just everybody's journey is so different and how we've got how we started, how the journey goes to where we are now the cool thing is there's so many ways to get to wherever you want to be and everybody's everybody's angle is different and that's the that's the beautiful part whether you want to be a full time freelance or you want to go in house or however you want to do it. There's so many ways and your journey has been cool, volatile, Charlotte's you've got some really cool things. So it's just it's very cool to get all three of us together and have

the corny part for me I didn't have to do it myself. Um, yeah, he I mean I mean, the this is I will always just plug copy chief but that's kind of where we're we are all on like this the community that we're in and that's actually the the only way I knew to connect with with both of them. And the more digging I do the more teachers like former teachers I find lurking in the copywriting world that don't think that that's like a an interesting aspect of their story, but part of why we're doing this or like why I'm recording all this is like what Ben said, there's so many ways to get into this and I would love for there to be as many examples as possible because there's no one way and you I'm curious Charlotte so is this gig like do you get to work from home I remember you said something about you had to be in the office for a while.

So for the first two weeks, I went into the office. I live in Auckland, but I live about if there's no traffic about 40 minutes outside of the downtown area so it's doable, but I wouldn't really want to do it every day, just traffic. So I work from home basically as much as I want but I've decided to go in every Friday just to stay connected with the team. And if I lived closer I would go in more often honestly because the studios so cool like we have people coming in all the time for photoshoots and like recording their podcasts and like there's just always something happening. So I think there's something about the energy of being in the same room with people which is really cool. And there's only me and one other person who are remote and the rest of the teams in person all the time. So I don't want to be completely out of the loop. So yeah, it's a good balance. I get to like, have that flexibility because I don't really mind when I get my work done. Which means I can like pick up my kids from school and take them to swimming and catch up whenever I need. To our work early in the morning when they're still asleep. But then on Fridays, I get my day to like catch up with everyone in the office and meet with people and meet with clients sometimes and think so it's a really nice balance.

Sounds like a really great arrangement. I never thought I would ever go back to the office. Or that I want to until I did remote work for a while and then sometimes you just want to connect with someone in person, right? And then you were talking about you know, debating with yourself whether to take on full time work versus staying a freelancer and but ultimately what you you said what you prize the most is control right? And would you like to share how that control over your time has led to some adventures over the past month?

Yes, so one of the biggest things that my wife and I have kind of put into motion last summer when I switched from being an education for 12 years that was taking 60 plus hours a week of my time into doing this freelance work or I can now work whenever from wherever we put the wheels into motion to do some full time travel. So we we sold our house. We've been living with family and we bought an RV and this past month and a half, we did a 30 day kind of test run. So we spent 30 days left from Washington DC did the northeast portion of the United States drove up through Massachusetts up to Maine right outside of Acadia National Park. Then back through Vermont, New York and Pennsylvania. So it was an awesome opportunity where I was able to I work I worked the entire time. Well, not the entire time obviously but I was able to kind of set my schedule. So I had we had workdays we had travel days and we had experience days so I was able to kind of set these are the days where I'm going to put in a solid day's worth the work. He's the days that are going to put in a little bit but we're going to travel or spend five, six hours on the road and these are days we spent a full day in Boston. We spent a few days in Acadia National Park. We spent a day up in Stowe, Vermont, touring Ben and Jerry's factory so being able to fully set that schedule I have complete control of of what I did what I did where I did it from that for me, has been the biggest driver of where I've been where I want to get to and kind of how I've how I've gotten to where I am now.

I'm secretly asking Ben all of this so I can do the same thing but with cat because he's doing it with kids and I'm gonna learn all his secrets.

We got two kids and two dogs so so yeah, loading up two kids and two dogs and they of Sierra 3500 tow on a fifth wheel behind us it's it was interesting journey.

And we're gonna go really off the rails here in a second because conversation we were

trying to get the timeline on this thing because you posted about getting this big retainer client pretty recently. Did that happen? Right before we left? Oh, wow. Okay, um, the number one thing I want to know is like Wi Fi and internet, like how did you handle all of that?

That was interesting. So we so part of this experience was testing a lot everything so we don't, we didn't get any sort of dedicated Wi Fi or remote internet. The goal was to see how much we could rely on both campground Wi Fi, which is notoriously spotty and shaky that also just hotspot off my phone through the Verizon network. So for the first three campgrounds in New Jersey, Boston, and then Maine we got incredibly lucky. Was able to between the campground Wi Fi and then off of my phone hotspot had no issues able to do zoom calls and all the work, zero issues. And then we hit for mind. And campground Wi Fi was terrible and with 010 Verizon signal and the same thing happened in New York for about a week and a half where we were I had I had no connectivity. So I'm having to reach I had to shuffle all of my meetings. I had enough enough internet where I could write and I can get on CLEVEO and I could kind of schedule emails but there's no shot of doing a video call so had to reschedule all my video calls for two days before an each stops at one day went out to a coffee shop and spent six, seven hours at a coffee shop between getting calls done and getting work done. So just boiling it all down. So long story short, we've got a plan for full time getting better internet, but it was a good experience being able to once having the flexibility to say okay, I can do all our calls on this Thursday. And it was it was an interest interesting experience. It was not ideal. But we got it done.

That's life on the road. Right? You'll never be ideal. I lost my suitcase on the way to Nashville. So there's that. I want backtrack a bit like the process of actually getting the jobs or the clients that you have right now. Are you comfortable sharing that the journey Charlotte is the Can you hear the sirens is a really loud? Oh my god. There's a lot going on outside. Welcome to Nashville guys. You're right here with us. So yeah, like the journey, the challenges of applying, if any, you know and like the interview process and all that.

So like I said I was really tossing up like whether I should start applying for jobs or not. And I wasn't really applying for other jobs but this one was an agency that I had been following for a while on LinkedIn. So when I saw a job pop up, I was like, oh, I'll just apply for it. Like, I have nothing to lose basically, like I could. They're not going to choose me and whatever. So I got in then I was like, well, if I'm gonna bother applying then I should at least like put in a little effort so I sent a message to the owner on LinkedIn and I was like Hey, just wanted to like connect with you let you know I just applied for the copywriting job I see you guys mostly work with like, personal brand. Clients. That's the type of client that I usually work with as a freelancer, like, just wanted to like, say hi, basically. And he was like, yeah, we'll get you in for group interviews. So they do group interviews because it's a really fast growing agency. So a good way to weed people out is bring in like 20 people at a time. So I went to this group interview, they're actually 33 of us. But the reason that they do it is because they said in a one on one interview, you can kind of fake your way through but in a group interview, they're looking for how you interact with other people and like if you're a decent person, basically so we had to do these like group activities. Like we had to come up with a story and tell it in a group. Like one line each and so I guess I wanted to say like, you know, do you listen to other people? Are you going to collaborating like Are you supportive? Are you like that? type of thing. But when I went, most people at my table were in like, right out of university like 2021 because this agency has like 700,000 followers on Tiktok. So they're really well known for like social media and being like really cool and young space. And I was like, I feel like such a bomb right now. Like the lowest person here and all of them are like, I'm hoping to break into the industry, like, just finished school and I was like, Oh my goodness. So I thought I'm like never gonna hear from these people. Again. I'm totally not what they're looking for. So I get the email, like, we want you to come in for a second interview. And so I went to a second interview and that one was with two people in the team. And it's basically just like an hour long conversation because they're like, we care more about like the culture. So do you like are you easy to talk to do you share similar values that we have? What do you like as a person? So it's just like a conversation? No, I was waiting for all of the like hard hitting questions, but they never came. It was more like, I guess, getting a vibe. And then again, I was like, I'm never getting this job like, you know, got interviewed by people that were like to 24 year olds or something. And I was like, they probably think I'm like, really old and out of touch with not cool enough. To be here. And then. So I get another phone call and you're like we want you to come in for a third interview and I was like, What are you talking about? So my third one was with the executive creative director. And again, it was just like a conversation and by the end of it I walked away and I was like, I think I have this job like I don't even know it's it was simple, weird the whole time. I was like, what's even going on? But I guess I'll just keep going down this road and see what happens. Yeah, so I left that and I was like, and then I was thinking like, do I even like, is this what I want? And the fact that they would let me work through it was like a deal breaker for me. So that was, it seems like everything just fell into place really well. And I guess the reason they said that they really liked me is that most of your clients are trying to build their business on LinkedIn. And that's what I've been doing through my freelancing work for the last 10 months. So there were like you have such a leg up over someone who's never done that because you know what works on LinkedIn, you know, what makes a good post, you know how to write already. You know, like what clients are looking for because you've done client facing work to so there were like, there was no way that someone else like had the same experience as you so it was like an easy choice, basically, which was cool. So I was like, I don't think I could have jumped into that straight from teaching. I had to like build up that experience first.

I love I love the part where you said I'll just see like take the next step and see where all this goes. I feel like that's kind of been my my journey as well is it starting? No worries are just so anxious. There's like so many things going on. And then there's the music and the sirens now there's a plane flying. Very bad ADHD. So please forgive me. Is it would you be comfortable sharing like well, your would your client mine Have you shared that experience that you you shared

outside surely so I don't want to share any client details? Yeah, definitely. But to really what I I went through the Freelancers kind of up and down as far as feast and famine this year so that the beginning of the year I went through a period of time where it was there was a lot of a lot of work, a lot of good stuff. I had my biggest month back in March and April of this year, and then some different things happens with work and family and things dipped. And so over the summer it kind of dropped back down and then back, got back into July and August. really started getting more focused on my lead generation and my outreach and most of what I've done as far as lead lead gen outreach goes comes from job boards, places like Upwork places like copy chief. The few other networks that I'm tapped into, I haven't done much cold outreach. It's just not an area that I feel overly comfortable with doing. It's not something that I really want to invest a lot of time into. So I'm more warm outreach, more connections and so I'll work the place where what I found is work nicely for me is looking wading through the different posts on up work and figure out what looks what has the earmarks of looking like it's somewhat has some potential. It's pretty easy this point to identify different artwork posts that are AI generated. file if somebody's generating an AI, a work close I have zero desire to reach out to them. But you can tell when there's ones that are legitimate people that are reaching out through up work for help when it gets to the E commerce space, reaching out and offering the opportunity to jump in and do depending on the post itself, jumping in and doing some sort of audit. I have found that works really well. And so that's how I ended up with this client. They had posted something about campaigns and segmentation and kind of needing someone to help out with emails. So rather than going in and proposing a whole bunch of work, I went and all I did was propose let me do a quick clay vo audit and a strategy call. charged him. I think it was $100 Total to do both of those things. But it got me access to the clavey account. I was able to go through and look at all their flows, their campaigns, their segmentation, their pop up everything else and then had a 30 minute call which I think ended up being about 45 minutes. I shared my all my finance ahead of time we spent about 30 3040 minutes going through okay, here's here's what I would do. Here's kind of the next steps. Here's what I would what I would see over the next 30 to 90 days. Really with the intention of just kind of sharing here, the the the what not the how kind of idea. Here's what I would do over the next 90 days. And so as we finish the conversation that C was on the call with the CEO and cmo CEO said yeah, we've got our email guy or head of email is leaving the next two weeks. We need somebody to step in. We love what you've shared, like would this be a project who would want to come in you would want to take on so everything worked out worked out nice in that respect. I was able to say yeah, let's all they put together a proposal, but I was able to put together a contract and everything and send it over to them. It was able to take that and turn that from from an audit straight into a retainer which was pretty cool. But it was just going in with the idea of let me use what I know about email want to know about e commerce take a look at what's already going on provide some strategies some some what I would do. And with us, it turned into a really cool relationship.

Mr. part about standing your ground or is that not Not? Not? Safer? No, that

is that is sorry. It's yeah. So try to think back to what what I shared with with a captive community. So it just turned into we had this conversation they asked me for an initial proposal I put something together I put something initial together. sent it over to them. They said sent back some some different requests as to what I could do. So kind of reduce the scope to match what they're what they had as far as budget goes and then kind of how we got to the point where they they needed somebody to step in, they kind of dragged their feet and dragged their feet a little bit to get everything going and they needed somebody to get started. And it was kind of sticking to my sticking to my guns so to speak. And I was sent over the contracts and over the invoice. They wanted to do the kickoff call. It was they hadn't they had kind of followed through on their own at all. So it was saying I'm ready to get started but we've got to get XY and Z done we gotta get cut to get the invoice paid and get the kickoff call scheduled. And so they had that initial kickoff call but they hadn't had the invoice didn't pay the invoice yet. So kind of continuing to reach out and stand my ground. It's okay that this this is what's going to happen so has everyone got the contract signed, get the invoice paid. Then we do the kickoff call and we do this way. Then we do XY and Z get into it. So standing standing from all on all of that really helped kick everything into gear. We've got everything started and has led to good relationships. Since then where I've I've been able to step in and say okay, and now we've been working for six months with or sorry six weeks with them. I've been able to step in and really assert myself as the as the the expert in the room, both when it comes to email when it comes to some of the more marketing ideas. And I think a lot of that stems from that initial interaction where I was able to to stamp say here, here's how this initial part works. Once we get this stuff done, then we get the next step done. Then we go the next step done. So that's that was a really cool learning experience. For me. It was not easy, but pays dividends.

So cool. How much of that like assertiveness, do you think came from being a former assistant principal? Or is it from something else entirely?

There's definitely some of that that comes from from being an assistant principal and being the leader both in in the classroom as a teacher, being a leader in the building as as an administrator. So somebody that just did that, that it made. This those those transferable skills that we learned in the classroom as an educator, having the expectations whether it's talking to a 14 year old kid in algebra one saying here's how the client here's how our class works or whether it's talking to a parent who wants special provisions for their kid and saying here's what's going here's how the process works or special education wherever it is. So definitely some of that in that innate that that what what I developed over 12 years and then combining that with what I've learned from different programs that I've gone through both through copy chief and through programs like one person agency and things like that. So it's definitely it's not one single thing, but it doesn't hurt having that experience coming from from education.

Yeah, he's talking about one person agency is the program by Chris or is it tusky who is also a former teacher who's also been on the show. It's all come full circle. So I like to end off with asking you both. What advice you would give to it doesn't just have to be teachers, just anyone who you know, is looking for a steady gig. I mean, I know you didn't set out to look for one. But you kept your mind open and kept going. Yeah, any advice at all for someone who's looking for steady work in copywriting?

I think don't discount your background or think that if your background is not in marketing, that is the disadvantage. I think, like there's space for all types of perspectives and I've found that it's it hasn't been something that like people hold against me. It's more like if you find that common thread of something from your background in related to copywriting and just make it really clear that that's it makes you a better copywriter, then people get that. But if you go into it with a mindset that like I'm behind or like I don't have the experience to be here, then you won't really have the confidence to go for opportunities. So just don't let whatever your background is hold you back.

Awesome. Thank you. What about you, Ben?

The first thing is to determine what it is that you want. Right and that was you want a change. But if what if if you're looking for a career change and moving from the classroom to a different full time position in a copywriting marketing sense or you're looking from going from the classroom or wherever you are now to have freelance kind of business owner whatever route his obviously is, everything has its pros and cons has its benefits and drawbacks. So step one, remember what it is that you want and then understanding that your path to that angle is going to look different than most people that you're going to see out there. Or we live in a beautiful world right now where you can find so many people through podcasts like this through social media through communities where people have gone from a full time job, whether it's an education or in other fields, to freelance career to business career to totally just changing careers. But the cool thing is everybody has it differently. And so that's all it's cool, but it's also can be restraining and that sometimes you could feel like okay I have to follow Tinus path or I have to follow Charlotte's path or I have to follow Ben's path wherever it is, or or Christopher's account sees path and everybody's different. So being able to go and say okay, I want to get to point B, whatever point B is and then being comfortable with your path from point A where you are now to point B where you want to be being different than anybody else's. And having that confidence that you have the skills, whatever wherever you are right now you have the skills and you set your mind to it. You invest in yourself, you take the time to develop those skills, and you're comfortable with the path that you're going to take. You can get to wherever you want to be. But don't try to be like somebody else. Don't try to follow somebody else's path in lockstep. Carve your own path, learn from the people who have gone before you reach out and ask questions, network and then continue to develop yourself your skills, your own personal development to get to where you want to be.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree because I I didn't think you know that one day I would be. So my my my win and the share that I'll just quickly end off with. So I recently got my dream job at Stansbury research in the financial copywriting industry before this I just knew of financial copywriters and they were all remote. Yeah, I won't do that. And financial promos are a whole other beast. And, you know, I'll explain why they're fun to write in a different setting. But like I thought you know, how can I just get to where they're at? And and then I look back at the journey that brought me to where I am like, in a few months I'll be moving to Baltimore because like Charlotte, I missed that in person. You know, I don't even have to move actually. It's not a requirement. I'll probably do what Charlotte does and like be in the office like once a week just to build those relationships. And I could not have replicated the journeys of all the other financial copywriters I bugged online it was like how did I get to where you are, you know, is it's it really depends on the person like are you willing to you know, I mean, for me, Ben knows this because I just wrote about this like, are you willing to endure like nonsense at the immigration counter every time you leave the country? Are you are you willing to invest the money to fly to another country and take an interview? Everyone's path is very different. So I hope that you know when you listen to the different episodes of classroom to copy, and notice just how different everyone's journey is that to take comfort in that and not like, oh, but mine looks so different. Just know that, you know, there's so many different possibilities and you don't have to replicate anyone's yeah

that was a mouthful. But thank you guys so much for for spending this time with me and you know, for all the back and forth of trying to pin down the time I got the time wrong multiple times, even if a time zone converter. Thank you so much. Do you have any last words to the audience? No,

I mean, this is this has been awesome. Glad we were able to sit down and put this together. It's appreciate what you're doing Tanya and getting us on here and sharing your story and allowing us to share ours. There are so many stories out there so everybody has the opportunity to write their own. It's pretty cool.

Because that's being poetic because we're copywriters.

Yeah I mean I'm inspired by both of you guys. And I think like being a teacher and looking ahead to people who are just a little bit farther along the road in the copywriting world was really encouraging to me to see like that I could do it too. So I think that's the beauty of community. Having a network that's supportive and

yeah, it's not cliche guys like it's community is real. We mean it we mean business. All right. We did it guys. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you on the next episode of classroom to coffee.